My H is offering to make a NC phone call and then change all his numbers and be an open book. Sounds good, right? Except... I cannot listen in on the call (he's afraid I'll say something) and he refuses to do anything in writing about NC. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Hmmm. Now, I know that NC is a difficult concept for most WS to grasp and maintainm, and a lot of BS have to negotiate it more than once. He's at least on board w/ the fact that there must be NC is we're going to have a M. However, it's just the way he wants to do it that makes me suspicious.

Thoughts from those more experienced?

dont waver---period.

Agreed. Don't let HIM set conditions on this. He's setting limits so that he can set this up HIS way.

Make it very clear to him that you BOTH are part of this marriage, and that right now, in order for your M to continue, he's going to have to do the right things here. That includes doing NC right...

Make sure that he understands that he's going to have to PROVE that NC is in place after this as well...that you need to have PROOF from him that it's all ended. And that you're going to be checking on your own as well. This has to do with re-building your trust in him, which has been shattered. If he balks, make sure he understands the alternatives.

The whole purpose of the NC letter is to make the BS feel safe. That is why it needs to be written (and approved by BS).

The WS owes this much to the BS. The letter should be short - I love my wife and family and am going to work on our marriage. Please do not contact me for any reason.

Your husband is still too wworried about the OW. My WH went to a motel with OW to announce NC. What a joke!!!

Yep. I would recommend that you not fall for what he is saying. He remains in the fog and needs your direction. NC letter AND phone call. If there is a phone call, you need to listen to it. Read the letter and mail it together. Without this, he will try to cake-eat and leave himself open for further contact with her.

This is based on my own experience with false recoveries.. THE FOG WILL BE REAL FOR AT LEAST 3 MONTHS, PROBABLY MORE....

Not good enough in my book.

H cannot call the shots to say what will protect you ... YOU call these shots.

Pep

Translation - he's not really interested in NC. He thinks he can appear to have NC from your vantage point while still maintaing plenty of contact.

Now, that said, perhaps we shouldn't be too quick to not allow him this less than perfect option. After all, written NC letters approved by BSs frequently are violated.

Change all his numbers? Will you have access to the new numbers? What else is included in the "open book"?

What do you really have to lose by accepting this pseudo NC? - as long as you realize, which you obviously do, that it's likely a sham? When it comes up again, you'll have a better argument for more conditions.

Others?

WAT

As a FWW,

I first did a NC phone call, and let me tell you - it was without my H and very different from the later NC letter I wrote.

I told him "goodbye" and "no regrets" and "i'm sorry" and all the nice things you would say when you are parting. I didn't want to hurt the OM's feelings - after all - he had been there for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

It explains why he continued to try to e-mail me once in awhile over the next 3 weeks, concerned when I no longer visited familiar forums that we both went to. I let my H respond to each e-mail, as well as cancelled more and more e-mail accounts on each attempt.

After 1 week post NC "call" I was out of withdrawel, but felt I had handled it. You see over 3 weeks of letting my Husband handle it, I soon realized I didn't handle it at all, I let the OM down softly, left open doors without realizing I had done that - it took until I came out of the fog to realize that.

The NC letter was ALOT different, and VERY firm, and VERY cold. And I meant every word of it. I have never heard from him since. And if my H has, then he hasn't told me.

I should have allowed my H to be in on that call, as it was more of a goodbye then it was anything else, and that wasn't for my H, that was for me and the OM.

The NC letter is a MUST, and so is allowing you to listen in on calls.

He is NOT thinking about his marriage, he is thinking about hurting her, and doesnt want you to hear the nice things he will say to her - possibly even blaming you.

you MUST have him do NC letter and send it yourself - send it registered mail so you know she got it. And if he calls you MUST be allowed to listen.

This is coming from a FWW.

-ds

My H did the same thing. My advice to you is to listen to others on this one - be firm and do a letter. DO NOT do what I did.

At first, my H said no letter but agreed to do a call with me on the line.

I felt secure about that, but when I kept asking when this will be done and he kept pushing it off for various reasons, I realized he never intended this to happen. Finally, he admitted having me there would be akward and I would get hurt bc the way they talk to eachother. Huh??

So I went against my better judgement and let him do a weekend with her to break things off. I know, in hindsight this is pathetic. He promised to cut ties completely but guess what...he didn't.

They kept talking even though he told me he didn't love her and was still trying to end this. And then one night he really screwed up and lied again to me about where he was going. He ended up at her place overnight. The next morning all his clothes were in garbage bags and placed on our front door step. He was shocked and I was firm. I told he has to leave until we find a more permanent separation. After much discussion, I agreed one last time to have him cut things off. He still didn't like the fact of me being on the phone or in the same room so he called her himself. In his words "I began this A alone and I will end it alone"

Okay so its been about 3 weeks and she's still calling him (only incoming calls, no outgoing). To me, there hasn't been closure on her end. He probably didn't make it clear enough. I told him if she calls again, I will call her back and tell her to leave him alone. H likes that idea but I don't. Why do I have to be the one to end things??

Its only been 5 days since she last called. I hope she won't call anymore but I can't be sure.

So please don't do what I did. Be clear and firm on what kind of ending you need. From my experience, if he does it w/o you on the call or seeing a letter, then its not a complete break.

As a point of clarity - my suggestion assumes that the written NC letter is hitting a brick wall. The alternative from him is nothing - no NC at all.

Of course you should require a written letter! All are in agreement that that's the best way to go!

WAT

Thanks for all the advice. I know you are all correct, but as WAT guessed, he is saying he will never, ever put anything in writing about NC. I'm sure, as a FWS, it seems like a punishment and a terrible request. So, if I'm hitting a brick wall on that one, is the following acceptable?

(1) we agree in advance on what will be said in the call
(2) I get to listen in, the call is brief, to the point, etc, like a written NC and we hang up
(3) regardless of her reaction or her continued contact, there is no follow-up call/explanation/apology/etc -- contact is 100% over after that call
(4) all numbers, etc are changed
(5) H is an open book to me w/ emails, phones, etc
(6) consequences... ???

OK, advice on above, and if NC is broken this time, then what are the consequences??? Other than Plan B/D? Before one gets to Plan B/D, how do you enforce boundaries except by saying over & over again that you're hurt and then saying after x times (fill in number), you move to Plan B/D?

Also, once more, when I move to Plan B/D, which I'm expecting to have to do based on NC issues, then do I allow him to visit my pets that he's become fond of? I think of it as breaking Plan B, but he will see it as a HUGE LB.

Thanks everyone. You are very kind to take time to respond to me. Sorry for the typos

This may seem like a minor point, but if you show weakness in how you intend to protect your boundaries, there will almost certainly be more "testing" of your resolve about NC.

The "in writing" NC agreement can also can be used in case this situation ends up in the court system.

Do not show weakness. His position is only self-serving it does not serve to protect you, Which is the whole point of agreeing to NC.... to serve YOU to protect YOU. If you are not protected to your satisfaction, it becomes meaningless.

Pep

I agree with Pep. He's setting boundaries where he has NO RIGHT to do so. You need to stand firm...you need to tell him clearly that if he wants to have any hope of keeping your M, he needs to take the steps YOU NEED in order to feel that your M has a chance.

If you don't stand firm, the next thing he'll refuse to do is to end contact with the OW.

Acceptable to whom? If it's acceptable to you, then I sure can live with it.

But is it acceptable to you? I think you need to search your heart andd figure that out. You figure this is as good as you're going to get from your WH, and you may be right, but if it is, is it good enough? As others have said, the point of a No Contact letter is to make you feel safe.

In any situation in life where two people are trying to strike a bargain, the one who is willing to walk away is the one with the most leverage. If you are truly unwilling to walk away from your WH over this issue, then he will have the power to do as little as possible. Picture him as a used car salesman trying to sell you a car. You walked onto the lot wanting a low mileage sedan with good gas mileage for under a certain price. He's trying to sell you a ten year old coupe. Maybe that is all he has available, but are you going to buy it? It's purely your decision.

butterscotch - This is just my opinion, and I am not nearly as experienced as WAT. But I look at the NC letter as the acid test.

I am sure there are some cases where a WS wrote an NC letter, and then still had contact - but I am not aware of many. Usually they refuse to write the NC letter.

My WH refused - said there was "no point" in doing it. He was absolutely right - there was no point, as they continued contact. The longest they went in 2 and a half years was one day without contact.

I look at it this way - if the BS agrees to accept the WS back and is willing to work on the marriage, but the WS refuses to write a letter to make the BS feel safe, the marriage might as well be over at that point. I hung in there through numerous D-days. Big mistake. All it did was make me lose respect for my husband, and also for myself.

I had to highlight this ... so so very very important !

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Let me think of an analogy here...it is a bit like a drug addict saying to you, "You want me to quit cold turkey, and I will, but on MY terms, I say when I quit, and how I do it, but meanwhile I will live in your house and continue using..."

What are the boundaries YOU will set for YOU.

I'm guessing things have not gotten bad enough you see that NC has to be final, and harsh, and an end, a ritual of ending before it will be real.

In general I would say NC could be done any number of ways, but the test of whether this NC is for real or not, is if you ask for the terms of NC, and your WH says...no problem.

The fact that he says, "yes but, I want to do it another way..." says that he is not serious about it...

I asked my FWH to send a NC letter, and he sent a NC email...after a month and a half of surliness, impatience, anger on his part I askerd him to leave...C began again (I found out later it never ended). Our recovery didn't begin until 2 months later when an actual letter that he wrote, I edited, he printed, signed, and we BOTH put in the mailbox was sent. (BTW, in 2 months will be the 2 year anniversary of that date...)

He doesn't get to make the rules...

If your WH intended to do NC, he would have no problem sending the NC letter.

But he refuses to send the NC letter.

You have your answer. He gave it to you loud and clear.

He has no intention of ending contact. All he is doing now is manipulating you by throwing you crumbs, and watching you jump and beg for more and more and more of them.

Demeaning, isn't it?

You can't stop this by demanding that he stop throwing crumbs.

You can only stop it by REMOVING YOURSELF from his vicinity until he's got a lot more to offer you than crumbs.

Around here, that's called "Plan B."

Please stop waiting for him to magically wake up and do the right thing. He's not going to do that.

Please stop thinking that if he only understood how much this hurts you, he would stop. Your pain means nothing to him now. Isn't that obvious?

Please START making something positive happen by doing it YOURSELF.

That's what everyone is trying to tell you.

He's not going to do ANYTHING to change this situation.

What are YOU going to do -- WITHOUT HIS PARTICIPATION -- to change it?
Mulan

Thanks everyone -- I heard you loud and clear. My H is always power-struggling issues, so I want to approach this in a thoughtful way, not in a way that raises his defenses. I think this will be the hill we die on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Please see below to see how I want to raise & set this boundary of NC for H and please comment.

A little background: H wants me to sign away my rights to any alimony/support/etc now and in the future before he will commit to full reconciliation with me. (I wouldn't get much now b/c we haven't been M'd long, but in the future it could be an issue). H says it's important to him because it's his #1 fear and he wants it in writing. Hmmm, that's a standard I can work with, but NC must come first before I'm making agreements relating to reconciliation.

So, here's how I'll say it:

H, you told me that your #1 fear was to lose your $, and that you wanted some protection in writing about this fear before we can move forward in recovery. I understand your feelings; I also have fears and, like you, I will need to have my fears addressed in writing before I can move forward in recovery with you. My #1 fear is that you are not serious about "us" and reconciliation, and that you will continue to have a relationship with, or at least contact with, the OW. Like you, I will need to have my fears resolved in writing. The purpose of this is not to be difficult, but like you, I need to feel loved and protected by you, and I need to know that you mean what you say when you say that you want to have a happy, loving and respectful M with me, your wife. I need to know that, from now on, we do what is best for us and our M, not what is best for one person or outside people, and that we care more about hurting our spouse's feelings than we do about hurting some outside person's feelings. In order to do this and have a happy life with you, I need you to write a simple, short letter to OW stating that you will no longer have any contact with her for any reason, to let me see that letter and have it rewritten until it's contents make me feel assured that you will end all contact and place us, our M and my feelings above any feelings of an outside party, and to mail the letter together. I deserve to have a husband who treats me with this type of honor and respect and it is an essential element to having the type of M with me that you say your heart truly desires. If you are unwilling to write this letter and end all contact of any type, for any reason, with the OW, then I will have no choice but to remove myself from your life.

Ok -- I'm babbling. He has little patience, so I need to water it down. Any suggetions/advice? I really don't want to power struggle, I want to set a loving boundary, but I am terrible at that -- any help is appreciated.

Thanks all - you are truly a blessing in people's lives who are going through devastating times.

BS

I am about to be rude

so stop reading now

if
you
feel
weak
in
the
knees
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Tell him to go to hell with this agreement.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />