This is a term another poster used to describe my exchanges with W and very accurate as you will see. WOE is an acronym for walking on eggs my and previous screen name. I've been enabling this EA for a longtime. Very quickly, W met OM in 9/01, ONS & D-Day 2/02, EA went at least 2 more years. Now I'm fighting continued contact via cell phone. Went to MC, IC and even had about 8 calls with Steve Hareley. OK, your up to speed.

Last night W went out with SIL. I went over BIL's and got drunk with him (no lecture needed). Several hours later the woman returned and I am seated next to SIL. We get talking and I gradually bring up that W continues to call OM (SIL has never been given full details of EA/PA). I explain that this has gone on for 4 years now. SIL face begins to show anger as she realizes W has been hurting me a long time. She was surprised to learn that all of those past hurts are all connected and this is quite a revelation. I am crying as I explain this to SIL and having a hard time getting the words out. W and BIL are seated close to us but oblivious to the details of our conversation and my crying.

When we get home I still have this all built up inside and unbeknownst to W. Well I go to bed immediately and ahead of W. I begin sobbing uncontrollably as I think about how ridiculous and hurtful this has gotten. 12yr old daughter tells W that daddy is crying in bed. W comes to bed and asks whats wrong. I tell her "because you can't stop calling OM". It has taken me all of my beer muscles to get this phrase out. W has no response but I know she is surprised that I still am able to somehow monitor her cell phone. Like other wanderers she calls and then deletes the calls. But she doens't delete incoming or missed calls and that provides plenty of info.

I then take my pillow and go downstairs to sleep. Still crying very hard until I finally fall asleep. Later I wake up and climb into bed. This morning W brings me coffee in bed and there is no further mention of the crying fit. And that my friends is Sideways Communication.

WOE,

Forgive me if my words seem harsh or cruel to you but the way the situation is right now, you might as well tell her that the marriage is an open marriage and to have a blast with the OM. Your situation is very similar to 2Long's and just like his it will not change until you make a decision to either make peace and accept the situation [WW continues her EA with OM] or move on with your life without your WW. It's been over 3 years since she started her affair and it still continues to this day. And why should she stop when she has not faced any severe consequences to her selfish and cruel behavior? You cannot force her to change but you certainly can change the situation by going into Plan B until either she is willing to end all contact with the OM or she is ready to face you divorcing her. Conquer your fear and you will be set free no matter what happens to your marriage.

TMCM

TMCM, what you said if of course accurate and not the least bit hurtful. My situation does seem very similar to 2long's. My IC told me to "understand WHY you are staying" and to "lovingly detach". It sounds like a polite way of saying your marriage is dead; accept it. But I can't accept that so I bumble around fooling myself I suppose. I'm not sure if I'll follow this episode up with some further conversation or not. But I did bring her to MB last week and showed her a post. She suggested maybe she should join MB. I told her I would love that. If she could see the real pain maybe it would wake her up a bit. But I finally understand that I am my biggest problem. Why do I accept this? That is the question I need to answer and then go forward with confidence in whatever decision I make.

Love your new sig line; beautiful.

WOE

Woe:

I'll not blast you (done that before).

Just a question (or 2).

Why after getting up the courage (beer or not) to speak your mind and reveal your issues, as well as your pain ........are you "willing" the very next morning to "play" the game of you BOTH pretending NOTHING is wrong.

Its already OUT on the table, so why not PRESS your advantage NOW while the Iron is still HOT?

What purpose does it serve (except to CA) to return to ignoring the elephant in the room ...up and UNTIL your can't take it anymore and basically "explode" again??

The issue is exposed, yet now that your internal "pressure" is lessened (by speaking up) ... you appear willing to Go BACK to the status quo.

So why is that?
And why is whatever reason your going to give acceptable (even to YOU)?

Your tears say you can't handle this situation "as is" .....IMO your fooling yourself if you think that anything's different today (except you "feeling" some tension relief from speaking up).

If nothing changes, the pressure starts building again & in YOU again .....starting Right NOW!

Here's hoping you decide your worthy of finding a better solution for yourself than that.

WOE, granted you were drunk, but the beer just loosened your emotions up enough to get them out. What your W is doing is devestating to you. If it wasn't there would be no tears while talking to SIL, and you wouldn't be sobbing when you got home. I think that you really need to think hard about your various choices here. I'll list some that come to my mind. Maybe you will come up with some others.

1) Keep doing what you have been doing. Stay Med to your W while she is still involved with the OM.

2) Follow MB principles and either break up the A and work on your M together, or D your W.

3) Have an A yourself, or suggest to your W that maybe you could have an open M. If she isn't going to dump OW, and you won't leave her, then maybe you could date also.

I'm going to ask you something and I want you to know in advance how much I don't want to hurt you by this question. Are you sure your W isn't in a PA with the OM? Do you know the whole truth? You say the OM doesn't want anything to do with her so why is he still in contact? I thought she was no longer playing pool with him.

WOE, you really will never have true intimacy with your W as long as this continues. True intimacy would be your W seeing your pain and wanting to help and comfort you. She is the cause of your pain, and she avoids and denies your pain. Let me ask you this? Think about your son and your daughter. If this was going on in one of their lives would you want them to handle it the way you are? Would you consider that noble? Why do you think your SIL had the reaction she had? Because like us on MB she cares about you and knows that your W's behavior is abhorible. I wrote to you once that you are the healthy one in your M. Unfortunately I think her sickness is spreading to you. THAT is why I recommended that YOU go to IC if you are unable to make a move here.

Please tell us why you remain in this situation? Give me one good reason. I really am curious! CV

Thanks Top Rope for going easy on me when easy isn't deserved. You are right I have the ball in play and should let it go. I may or may not, I'm still trying to figure out my next move. But if I had to give you an answer/excuse for my behavior I don't need to think about it. The answer/excuse is very clear to me; I don't want to hurt my W. I feel like we're in a boxing match and I want to hit her just hard enough to win the fight and not one bit harder than necessary. I suppose that sounds very silly. Here's another critical point; I have always had the power, but perhaps not the balls, to end this. You see, I could simply call the OM myself and explain to him that I held my W while we waited to see if she was pregnant with his child. For some misguided reason, I need W to do that and not me. Thanks for stopping by.

WOE, you don't want to hurt your W? I don't mean to doubt you here bro, but is that really the reason? I've always wondered if you are afraid your W won't fight for your M if you put her up against the wall. That possibly that fear holds you back from doing what you need to do. Tell me if I'm wrong.

When someone you love is hurting herself /her home / her family with continued destructive behaviors ... doing nothing is not a loving response.

Doing nothing is for your comfort, not hers. Don't think watching her destroy your love for her is a loving act. It is not.

Pep

CV, first I am not afraid of her leaving. Not anymore. She does not work outside the home and I just can't imagine she would leave. So that is not my fear.

Regarding PA I feel certain that is not the case. One week after ONS she invited OM out for pizza. He said he would only go if I went. I did go but was not aware of the ONS at the time. But him insisting that I go told me he wasn't the pursuer.

I would not applaud if my children followed my path of inaction. You are exactly right when you ask, "whap would I do if I wasn't afraid". I've got to figure out what I'm afraid of though. It isn't her leaving. And what I am doing is not noble. So why do I do it. I honestly believe I would still do it even if I didn't have children. I cannot say if I didn't have kids I would be gone. So they are not my excuse.

Lots of advice I am getting has been based on Plan B type ultimatems. I really don't consider that the right path because I always think she's supposed to protect me and end contact on her own. I agree with Top Rope that I have some momentum here and I should do something with it. I may simply ask her in a very non confrontational way if a)she would think it better for our M to stop calling, or b)better if I simply didn't care if she called. If she picks b) then I have a choice to make. That comes back to what IC told me that I have to lovingly detach. But this may have some effect on her and open up discussions. It was quite a night and my eyes were a mess this morning.

Also she is no longer on team with OM. In fact she is on a womans only team and this summer her and I will join a couples team. This is very positive and something Steve Harley encouraged me to do. Finally regarding intimacy I agree with you and that is my biggest dissappointment. That we haven't used this experience as a springboard to a better M.

Pepperband, I was recently reminded of your alanon message to me about a perfectly functioning system about the guy with the migrain headaches. That seems like a fair assessment of my sitch. But you are right that it is not a loving gesture to sit on my hands. Hopefully I'll have something positive to report before this latest chapter closes.

WOE,

You said
Well, I would say you are doing a lousy job of fooling yourself, or anyone else for that matter. You are breaking down in tears, your children see it, your W sees it, and you tell your relatives. You are not fooling anyone, including yourself.

So why not deal with this now, and then rebuild this marriage or leave it. It will not get better unless something changes. And HELLO, nothing has changed. Have you been reading 2Longs posts? You should read a few. His W is still in contact with OM, and this is following a 12-14 year affair.

WOE, you hold the key to changing things. You W has no need or reason to change anything. It is up to you, and you only.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

WOE, it's not a matter of you aren't afraid she'd leave because she's financially dependent on you. Is there any part of you that can face her decision if it were to leave the M? I didn't write that very well. These As are so addictive. Now that H has had NC for a year he can look back and says it did feel like an addiction. He was contemplating leaving our M. He does have integrity and he gave it all up for the high he was on. If your W were made to choose maybe she is so screwed up she would make the wrong choice. Are you allowing yourself to face that? I'll ask again, is that what's holding you back?

I'm sorry to say that your pizza story confirming it was just a ONS doesn't prove anything to me. WOE, you know the OW came to my home in-between visiting hrs. She helped the funeral director at my dad's funeral in church. For all I know she asked to help. One day I plan on asking the ex-partner. A week later she came to my BIL's party and ate dinner with H and I. She showed up at a bar I met H and some friends at. I can't believe that either of them did any of that. The best that I can get in understanding is this. From H's point of view it's that whole compartmentalizing thing a WS will do. "See, everything is normal. I'm not doing anything bad. If I were, I sure as he** wouldn't have the OW and my W eating with me?" I'm not sure what the OW's motivations were. My IC thinks it was some sick thing to be around H. Kind of a control or power thing. I'm just saying I have learned how deceptive these cheating A partners are.

You say you don't do the regular MB thing because you believe your W should protect you and end it. The thing is she isn't!!!! I wouldn't necessarily go right into Plan B, but I know what I would do. I would get as much info as I could. I'd snoop if necessary. That's coming from someone who hates snooping, but it was the only way I really began to find out the whole truth. Even if it is just what you think it is, an EA fantasy, I'd then go on to tell your W enough is enough. If she wants to be Med to you it has to stop. I'd confront the OM and tell him everything. If she won't stop and you want to save your M I'd then ask her to move out and let her explain to your kids why, with you there. Of course I wouldn't do any of this until after your son graduates.

Those questions you are asking still sound like sideways talk to me. How about (a) Are you having an A with OM? (b) whatever she says, do you want to remain Med to me? (c) If so, are you willing to stop what you're doing because it is hurting me and is destroying our M and family. (d) Are you willing to work with me to recover our M?

I'm going to stop now. Again, only you can decide what kind of M you want. Pep, is right here. You are allowing your W to trample over everybody. Please take some time and get clear on this! CV

JL, you're right that I'm doing a lousy job. The original motivation to keep silent was to protect W. It has without a doubt had the reverse effect. By allowing her to keep the fantasy alive it has seen me collapse into my friends arms on the golf course last year, breakdown in front of SIL the other night and numerous other episodes in front of both of our families. I suppose CV, made me realize it's no longer about W but rather what's wrong with me for allowing it. That is what I really need to focus on. Because in my opinion I have hit her over the head with the mallet enough times for her to understand. Again I have gone to MC by myself, with her, and again with SH and finally almost a year of IC. While I haven't done everything I can I have done a fair amount. It may in fact be time for me to concentrate on me and let the chips fall. Coming back here has been a very good dose of reality for me. I will use the "emperor has no clothes" analogy. The fresh eyes on my situation are all incredulous and rightly so.

CV, I'm not as afraid of divorce as I was one or two years ago. I certainly don't want to go down this path but I now know I would survive. I really don't know my next move but you are right about the addictive nature of this. If your familiar with the movie "The Days of Wine and Roses" it shows in the end that Jack Lemmon had to walk away from Lee Remmick even though he still loved her very much. The movie is about alcoholics and since she never gets healthy he takes his daughter and goes. I won't dissappear but I will let this chapter go for now.

My 20th is in September and I am thinking of giving her a copy of her phone bill explaining why we won't be celebrating once again. I will continue to pour over the information that everyone has provided and see if I can muster the courage to have a conversation. I was inspired by 2long's recent exit of the CA club.

Finally, CV I apologize for saying you had your own sideways conversations going on. You're right that you are very straightforward. Even the wedding ring. I hope you would put it on but at least H will know that you mean it, when the time does come.

WOE, don't apologize for wondering if I was doing the sideways talk. I just was being honest with you. That is the one thing that I have definitely gotten from this A, which is I will say what I think and feel. Most times I think I am respectful when I talk to H. Maybe he is becoming more straightforward in the process too.

As I told you yesterday I struggle with my own demons. Mainly if I really can ever get over the extent of H's betrayal. I wonder if some of us BSs just can't do it. At least I know that the person I am dealing with is no longer a lier. I want you to get to that place. Only then will you and your W be able to have real conversations about your M, what went wrong, and if it's possible to repair the damage. I agree with what I think FL said, that only you can make these changes occur. You have to be the boat rocker here. Why do you want to wait 4 months to do that?

In case you haven't been to recovery Sussed posted to you there. Take care! CV

CV, I agree that 4 months is too long. My son graduates on June 4th so I will relax until we get through that. As functioning alcoholics every event like this is celebrated with a monster bash. That will keep W and I busy for the coming weeks. But after that I will get her cell phone bill around June 10th. If it shows that she called cutie petootee within days of my meltdown this past Sunday I will confront. However if it shows that calls are diminishing I may back down on this.

She told me "you're in your head too much". This was a reference to my meltdown on Sunday. I should have responded and "you're into OM too much", but I let it go.

I'm not saying I can go on forever but I want to see progress. So that is what I mean by diminishing. Keep in mind it's only since December that she left the team. So physical contact has ended and that's progress. Now I need this emotional attachement to die. I know we have very different approaches and I'm not sure the longterm effect this will have on my love for my W. I monitor that as much as phone bills. Love is based on respect and I haven't lost my respect for her yet. But if she shows absolute indifference to my meltdown I will be at a different place then I am now.

CV, gambling had two d-days and lead to 9 years in an apartment. Some of my empathy comes from what I put her through. She both packed her bags and my bags at various times but we got through it. I still remain very confident that we will heal. Once she does her part, it will be my job to work on forgiving. That seems to be what you are working on now and I imagine it's not easy. Wont' be back until tomorrow. Thanks for all your support.

WOE, what do you mean "functioning alcoholics"? That concerns me. Also her statement, "You're in your head too much" IMHO is very disrespectful and uncaring. That's telling you that you're crazy for feeling what you're feeling, even though there is a good da** reason you are feeling the way you are. A WS will usually make it about you, not them. That is how a WS is the cruelest IMO.

WOE, I wonder if you will forever be paying your dues for your gambling addiction. From what you wrote your W was wonderful during that time and stuck with you. Maybe she didn't deal with her pain during that time, and the damage done to her and your M. However, that doesn't give her the right to punish you in the way she is now, and it shouldn't be your burden to put up with it. If I can't get over H's A then we will have to split up. I don't want or expect him to be punished by me for the rest of our lives together.

Go back to the "Getting It" thread. I dedicated a daily meditation to you, TNT, and SUS. Take Care! CV

CV, you're right that W's comment is simply rationalizing on her part. Of course I'm into my head too much because that's where she put me and it will take her to get me back to normal. I'm reminded of the classic line, "what are you supposed to do when the only one who can stop your tears is the one who made you cry".

I don't own the gambling anymore. I did look at your inspirational message on the "getting it" thread and thank you. CV, I have something significant to report and while I considered putting it on a seperate thread I don't want it to get too much attention so I'll leave it here and take my chances. This will also answer your questions about alcoholism.

Last night I went out to dinner with a co-worker/friend. After dinner (drinking) he asked if I could go out to a local bar. I told him I would check with W and invite her along if that was OK. W agrees to meet us. Sounds like I'm doing the right thing so far right? Well I continue drinking and bump into a neighborhood guy I know who deals cocaine. I purchase a small bag and go into bathroom with it. W calls me on it and I deny. I well know this is not going to heal my M. But there may be a silver lining.

This morning I tell her I want to talk to her. She would have let the matter go with our usual communication style. But I wanted to try to find something positive out of this huge mistake. I sat next to her and told her I am very sorry, embarrassed and dissappointed in myself. I also told her that I knew it hurt her more than she let on. But then I got into the phone calls and told her that they hurt me more than she realizes and that I don't just keep bringing it up to control her. But emphasized that it really hurts. The conversation continued in a positive direction. We talked about my IC. I told her that after 3 visits IC told me the biggest problem in my M was alcohol (how perceptive I found this). He also told me that W and I are not connected; only dependent on eachother. I explained this to her and said I want to get closer to her. She told me she has a "wall" up to protect herself etc. She explained to me what a liar I am and I agreed. I have decieved her many, many times so I accepted the criticism. Of course she hurt me but I don't want to trade punches.

There was some more good stuff but I'll cut to the finish. I asked her if she knew how much I loved her and she said "yes, I do". She jokingly said "you're lucky, but you could have been luckier. I said I'm the luckiest and asked her what she meant by luckier. She told me you could have had everything you now want. Anyway I'll wrap it up with this summation.

I promised that I would try to be honest in everything. I would never do coke again (please rest assured of this) and that I think we both need to curb our drinking. CV, despite this mess I feel kinda upbeat in that I got clear instructions from her what she wants and expects of me. And she certainly has instructions from me regarding the phone calls. Let's see what happens.

Finally, I saw you mention that you were visiting the divorce site and it didn't look any greener. It saddens me to see some of your posts lately as the tone is as discouraging as mine. I want you to know that I still believe that you can have a better M than before and I hope you can still see this through the pain. CV, I wish us both the very best. Let's enjoy those graduations and take things a step at a time. You don't need to respond to this lengthy post.

WOE,

CV55 is absolutely right that you should not be forever paying your dues for your gambling addiction. You are letting your guilt for what you put your W through, help support her EA. What I am affraid of is that if this continues one day soon you will have an affair of your own and then you are going to leave your W to go live with the OW. Don't kid yourself, you are extremely vulnerable to an affair of your own. I strongly suggest that you consider divorcing your W first before that happens. The emotional destruction will not only affect her but you as well.

TMCM

TMCM, thanks for stopping by. I agree about the gambling thing. It's time to let that go and deal with the issue that's in front of us; the EA. I don't know if you read my disturbing reply to CV but it does show some movement. I am starting to see how our lives have changed since this happened and alcohol has become a bigger and bigger part of our lives. I had a real heart to heart with W today and looking at it as an initial discussion I would say it went very well. I just need to follow up my words with action. And she certainly has to stop calling OM. I agree with you wholeheartedly about my own A. I am vulnerable and it would be a horrible mistake. I need to keep paying attention to what my heart is telling me. Take care.

Woe, it's even worse than this. Doing nothing is you self-medicating rather than truly comforting - 2 anyone.

I don't know what happend 2 me, but it was just like finally FEELING that big ol' 2x4. Maybe the infinite improbability of scrambling my brains back in2 order 2k place. I don't know.

But the clarity! DAMN, now THAT's comfort!

I used 2 agonize so much about why is it that ICs and MCs seem 2 spend so much of your time (and money) telling you 2 focus your efforts elsewhere besides cleaning, oiling and loading that big, fat elephant gun (preferably in front of your WS while watching TV or something, EVERY NIGHT)?

Why is it that the Harleys, and anyone else writing books about infidelity, say that NC is REQUIRED before marital recovery can START?

I think it's because people like you and me come 2 the ICs and MCs for a session, with them (and us) knowing full well we're going right back home 2 our WSs after it's over. Add 2 that the fact that we BOTH have told them, "I don't want 2 hurt her, I want 2 comfort her. I want 2 WIN her back from the OM!" My first [expensive] IC was all 2 willing 2 work with me under the conditions I consciously (or otherwise) told him I wanted 2 work on this.

What I really understand now (and apologies 2 everyone for saying this over and over several thousand times - literally - these past 3.3 years) is that the first thing I needed 2 get was the backbone, the second is an NC agreement, and whatever happens after that depends on the outcome of discussions around the 2nd requirement.

Period.

End of Discussion.

...knowing full well just how hard that was for me 2 do. You'll do it when you can. Just like everybody says, when the alternative is more painful than the seemingly-insurmountable CA barrier.

-ol' 2long

WOE:

"I may simply ask her in a very non confrontational way if a)she would think it better for our M to stop calling, or b)better if I simply didn't care if she called. If she picks b) then I have a choice to make. "

Screw this. Don't ask her these 2uestions. Ask yourself:

number a) Define what "commitment" 2 your spouse means 2 you.
Letter 2) Is your M one of mu2al, exclusive commitment 2 one another and noone else (particularly other people you/she have had sex or been emotionally involved with at an inappropriate level?

Then choose what you want and make it so.

-ol' 2long