Weekend went terrible, we went to marriage "seminar" and I guess we both blew it. Mostly me this time. It was supposed to be about discussing feelings, I thought my wife was using it as a forum to slam me and keep independent lifestyle. Which she kind of did, but I made more out of it.

Also, for all of you that posted about the counselor and wife's conversation, it would seem you were correct. My wife either exaggerated his comments or completely lied. I talked to him briefly today and he basically said that during their meeting, they didn't really talk about her working with the OM.

I'm meeting him tonight, I doubt he'll say much, but it will be interesting.

After this weekend we both decided that it doesn't look like we are going to be able to save marriage.

We're not yelling, just coming to the realization that we are little too damaged and for the sake of our daughter we better quit before it gets any uglier.

Thanks all

Translation - we are too self absorbed to give our daughter a chance at having an intact family.

Which do you think your daughter would prefer - seeing her parents struggle to save her family, or see them give up on her family without a struggle?

How does this serve her?

Do you think breaking up the family WILL NOT BE UGLY????

How 'bout you let me have your daughter?

WAT

I agree with WAT.

You haven't even started yet, and you're already giving up.

Dr. Phil says you have to "earn" your way out of a relationship. That means that if and when you do leave, you will leave knowing for certain that you did absolutely everything you could reasonably do to save it. That means you will not have to look back a year or ten later and wonder, "well, if I had actually tried this, or tried that . . . then maybe . . . "

Have you earned your way out of this marriage?

Are you ready to watch your young daughter grow up calling another man "Daddy?" She will, you know, even if you're there, too.

Divorce will not make your problems go away. You are still going to have to deal with the very ugly destruction of your family, and you will do so never knowing if you could have saved it had you been willing to fight for it.

Some people do end up having to divorce, but at least they know they did everything they could to avoid it -- and that's a very different situation.

Which will you choose?
Mulan

WAT and Mulan,

I appreciate your point of view, but there does come a time when you realize that the WS is not going to make an effort, not only concerning the NC, but with other needs and boundaries.

My wife expects me to change to fit her and she's not wrong that I do need to make some changes concerning our relationship. I've already started trying to fill the needs I wasn't filling in the marriage. She not only isn't doing that, she's giving ultimatiums and simply saying "I'm still here aren't I." That's not enough. She refuses to guarantee that she will not be working with the OM, and I don't want to wait 4 more months to find out that she's decided to keep her job. This is my boundary. NC and new job. If she can't do that, than I need to move on.

Trust me, the thought of not putting my daughter to bed everynight is keeping me awake (and the thought of her calling someone else daddy is devastating). I've cried so much, I'm ashamed of myself. This is not something I take lightly. I've been with my wife since I was 16 years old, and I'm 39 now. I'm not doing this because I think it's the easy way out. I've honestly tried to get over this, I can't get over her betrayal and the lies that have follwoed and she hasn't really given me a reason to stay either or shown that she puts her marriage and family first.

I also do not want to teach my daughter that she should accept and expect this kind of thing in her life and relationships. She should expect that when she marries that her spouse will be faithful and I have no problems saying this is unacceptable behavior. People aren't perfect, but that doesn't mean that cheating on your spouse is something we should accept. This is the one boundary that shouldn't be crossed. Besides, I consider it much more than just a mistake (my wife's word)when it last for over a year.

Thanks again, I appreciate your efforts and input, I'm just all out of hope and forgiveness right now.

And your case is unique because why?

Wouldn't you rather me - sight unseen - be your daughter's new Daddy than ANY liar and cheater?

I apologize for being flippant, but guys that won't fight for their families give the rest of us a bad name.

You're expecting your wife - under control of the Mothership - to act rationally. She will not. This leaves you to protect your daughter. If you won't who does that leave?

Me and Mulan?

We seem to be the only ones with her interests in mind.

But guess what? - we have YOUR and YOUR WIFE'S interests in mind as well!

You let this family go without a fight and you will regret it for the rest of your life.

WAT

***I appreciate your point of view, but there does come a time when you realize that the WS is not going to make an effort, not only concerning the NC, but with other needs and boundaries.***

Um, you don't seem to understand. The rest of us are here precisely *because* the WS doesn't make an effort with any of those things. We're here to learn to cope with it and do our best to bring about a positive change in the marriage, and we are willing to do that single-handedly since the WS ain't about to help.

Why would we do this? Because we have decided that our families are worth saving and worth fighting for. I got my screen name from the heroine Mulan, "who fights for her family." She fought in a differnt way, but the outcome is the same.

Guess what! When it comes to an active WS, NONE OF THEM make an effort -- not for a good long time. Not after a lot of heavy lifting on YOUR part, but you are saying you're not willing to do that.

This is not about what SHE is willing to do, though you keep turning it back to that.

This is about what YOU are willing to do, on your own and without waiting for her cooperation.

And that would be -- ?

Grove -- what, exactly, have you done to *earn* your way out of your marriage?
Mulan

Hey wait a second...I have 4 kids, 2 of which aren't mine by birth anyway and only one daughter...I'd like another.

3 boys, 2 girls...that sounds good

I'll take her.

Grove...you've just started man...c'mon you are better than this...you can't give up yet...your daughter says so

RebornMan

grove, I suspect that you feel just frustrated and hopeless right now, which is why you are ready to give up. You feel as though you are in an impossible position because your W refuses to end contact and we have convinced you that there is no hope unless contact ends. Am I right?

I think you have a couple of opportunities that need to be explored before you move to divorce.

This is why I had suggested you talk to Steve Harley. SH is brilliant at assessing individual situations and giving you a plan, most especially when you have a reluctant W, as you do. He is a genius at reaching some of the worst WS's and drawing them into counseling. There are no guarantees, but I would implore you to give him a try, when you can afford it, before you consider throwing in the towel.

You still have opportunities here to save your marriage that have not been utilized, such as Plan B. Please try SH and Plan B before you throw in the towel. And I apologize for all the confusing advice you got here. I heard your frustration and should have said something earlier.

Again, I appreciate your point of view, but this really is a value judgement. For some people, betrayal is the boundary you don't cross. It was mine, so my willingness to "wait" while my wife is deciding whether she's willing to come back to the marriage is somewhat different than yours. I gave it "MY" best shot. To be honest, it was much more than I ever thought I'd be willing to do. At some point, you have to have a little pride in yourself and say, enough is enough! It is different for everyone. For me, I have found my limit. I will not behave like a victim any longer and I won't sit around with my tail between my rump and act like I don't deserve better. I do and my daughter deserves to see that some things are unacceptable. This is one of those things. Please remember, my wife gave me an STD during her affair and blamed it on the fact I cheated on her in college almost 19 years ago. Please think about that while your telling me that I'm not giving this a chance. We spent ten thousand dollars on an international adoption that my wife just stopped, why because she was having an affair. We built a brand new home 3 months before her affair started because we needed a bigger home for our new addition. So my willingness to give her time, is slightly warped. I did the best I could do.

While I appreciate your input and opinions, you have gone a little to far with bringing my daughter into this. I didn't betray my family and I refuse to have the finger pointed at me. MY WIFE, not me, made the decision to betray her vows, risk losing our family and have our daughter grow up in a broken home. I've stayed as long as I could while she "tried" to work this out. If your spouse is a drug addict, you do an intervention and get them help, our society doesn't see adultry as an addiction, so I can't make her get the help she needs, and unfortunately neither will the courts. She will get, at a minimum, shared parenting. Ohio doesn't consider adultry as a reason to give the father custody.

So what have I done to earn my way out of the marriage. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! My wife did though. I think I deserved better than what I got. We had problems, obviously worse than I thought, but they were "fixable", now we can't get to those because of the choices my wife has made.

I want to find someone who will love me and honor our vows. I may not find that, but I'd rather be alone than live with someone as selfish as my wife has either become or is. It sucks because for some strange reason I still love her and I probably always will. She was and most likely alway will be the love of my life, but this isn't much of a life I'm living right now.

Good luck and God bless.

Grove,
I will admit that I have not followed your story here. I have read this thread. Not that I mean to be so uninformed, but I have this to say.

You articulate your thoughts very well and I hear what you are saying. I am sorry to hear that your life now includes this issue.

You have every right to draw the line where ever you wish. If your wife's betrayal is just too much to bear, then by all means make the decision that best serves you.

I only implore one thing. Take the time to make the right decision. Read up on the principles here and then sit down and ponder it. Without emotion. I will assume that to be a tall order, but I can't count the number of times I have made the lesser of decisions based on emotion. I didn't have a daughter to consider when I was choosing wrongly. You do.

If you can say that you have pondered the entire situation and that you have surpassed your point of "dealing with it" then I support you in any decision born from that.

Possibly you could get you WW to post here. If she will, I have a number of things I would like her to read. Things geared for the WS that has so diligently(or not so) gone about the business of destroying a BS. And family. And their lives. And a large number of other things.

I hope you could get her to post here. There is assistance in many forms here.

THe best to you.

patriot

Grove, you are exactly right, and no one should question your decision to leave or stay. That is entirely your choice and you would be perfectly justified in moving forward. The decision to stay with a wayward spouse is a tough decision. It is to sign onto a long hard road of recovery in a very damaged marriage that may or may not ever make it. You don't have to justify your decision to anyone because you are perfectly justified whichever way you choose.

I just wanted to make sure that we hadn't confused you to the point of utter frustration and I am assured now that is not the case. Keep posting here, grove, I hope we haven't discouraged you too much.

Grove,

Of course we all hoave our lines drawn in the sand...

The reason your daughter was brought up is because the real question is..

"Have you done all you can to protect her and ensure her life isn't totally screwed up"

I mean are you mad cause she hasn't come around?

I just don't want you regretting this later is all.....

The decision os yours and your's alone to make...

RebornMan

grovetuckyohio,

You have every right to choose whether or not you want to save or end your marriage but don't beleive for a minute that your divorce will be end of the story. You have a small little girl with your W and until she becomes of age, you will have to deal with your ex-W. Dr Willard Harley Jr's book 'Love Busters' has a section on how to resolve conflicts over children and you'd be wise to read it and implement his sage advice.

You may be interested in reading JavaPrincess's thread For the Newbies from a Recovered and Happy FBS. I beleive that you may benefit from her comments.

TMCM

Sorry if I came off "sounding" angry. Bringing my daughter into it, kind of hit a nerve. She is and will always be my main concern when making any decisions about leaving. Had it not been for her I would have probably filed for divorce immediately after d-day.

I am very confused and not as sure about my decision as I would like to be. Truthfully I don't think I will ever be completely sure I am doing the right thing. Right now divorce seems to be the direction we are heading. I can't fix this, and I'm not sure I will be able to get over some of the things I mentioned above. My wife took so much away from me, my dignity, self worth, and the right to make a decision on our having another child. It is overwhelming and I can't see any resolution that would make this better or acceptable. Do I love my wife still, absolutely. But sometimes love just ain't enough. She put me in a horrible situation and her unwillingness to be a part of the solution is more than I can or am willing to bear. As I read over my own statements, it sounds like I have already made my decision, I just don't seem to have the strength to actually follow through.

All of you have been great and have given me much to think about, but for some of us, this just can't be fixed. My wife and I could keep going the way we are going for a while longer, but we'll just be miserable. That's not fair to her, my daughter or me.

Thanks again.

Grove my friend, that's because you aren't done yet.

There is still unfinished business and that business is you.

You absolutely have every right to seek out a divorce and end it now.

If you choose that path before you worked every angle, before following all the steps to earn your way out of the marriage, before you have emptied out your love bank my friend you will be setting yourself up for a lot of bitterness and a long rocky road to recovery.

Just my 2 cents.

RebornMan

Then be a hero. Be your daughter's hero. Show you deserve better by being better. You're a victim because you've chosen to be a victim.


She did not take any of that away. You allowed her to hide it. Seize your self worth and demonstrate your integrity by fighting for what you know is right. You don't and you surrender it.


We know it feels overwhelming. We've all been there. Nothing she has done is acceptable, but you can make it better. You give up without a fight and you become an accomplice to the destruction of your family - by failing to attempt to preserve it.

Before you quit, read around this forum and see how similar your story is to so many others. This is why we're being firm with you - because your situation is not unique and we know resolution is possible. Even if an acceptable resolution isn't achieved, those who fight for it come out in terrific positions to move on. They can say they did everything within their ability to preserve their families. They finish with a clear conscience, quilt free. You quit now and you'll never know whether it could have been saved or not.

WAT

I have to say that I feel that I have done everything other than roll over and allow my wife to completely have her way. Actually I've done that a few times.

I just called my wife and asked if she wanted a divorce. She said she didn't want a divorce, but that she didn't think I was going to change, so she believes that is what we should do. I asked if she was for sure and she said she was. So I told her I would contact my attorney and begin the final process of filing for divorce.

No bluffing, I guess I need to go through with this. It's never going to be easy, I thought I'd just know for sure that it's over, but I don't think you really can until you get those final papers and you read it in black and white. I'm sure even after that I will have regrets.

All right, because you are not willing to make changes in the way you partner with your W, you are willing to get D'ed. Seems a bit selfish....

***Before you quit, read around this forum and see how similar your story is to so many others. This is why we're being firm with you - because your situation is not unique and we know resolution is possible.***

Yes. You seem to think your situation is unique and different and special. It's not. It's completely typical. There is much that you could do, if you wanted to.

Do a search here on a member named "Mortarman." His wife behaved much like yours, and there were children involved.

Maybe you haven't read the other stories here. I think you would be amazed at how very typical your situation is, right down to the words that come out of your WW's mouth.

What have you got to lose?
Mulan

Grove, I think our D-days may have been at similiar times. I'm around the six month mark and still fighting. I've been married for a long time and have children, dogs, cat and property. I'm not giving it up easily. It took a long time to get married and it's going to take a while to get out. Some people have been here for years. I don't think I can wait that long but a D is not happening this month.

Your WW is in the typical fog. All the WS are in it. It ebbs back and forth and maybe at some point you'll see it lift. Divorce would be an easy decision, a painful process and a certain ending. MB is a painful decision, a painful process but can have an uncertain ending. It's also a voyage of self discovery. It will give you the tools for all the relationships you are in.

BTW: My daughter has always wanted a sister and I'm a great mom. Send your DD our way.