Yesterday was HORRIBLE!

I let myself get so out of control, I actually scared myself. In my quest to know something, anything about this OW, I spent the entire day searching the net trying to figure out how to hack into her e-mail account. While, I came close - I was ultimately unsuccessful.

Go ahead and 2 X 4 away for that one, if you wish.

But, I feel SO STUCK and I am ANGRY about it!!!!!!

I am angry because Patriot seems to care more about protecting himself and his relationship with her than he does about actually laying all of that down and facing what he has done so that I, WE, can move forward!

Yes, for all his talk, HE STILL HAS NOT GIVEN ME ANY DETAILS! A lot of the details he gave me initially were lies - stupid ones, at that, IMO. I mean, REALLY, what the heck difference does it make if they went to the same hotel 600 times or 600 DIFFERENT hotels???? Does he really think that makes it hurt less or cushions the blow? It doesn't!

By the time the afternoon came around yesterday, I had worked myself into a MAJOR panic attack that actually required medical attention. So, lucky me...I have now been heavily armed with prescriptions, so that I may attempt an XYZ recovery.

X = XANAX
Y = Y does he want me to 'just get over it'?
Z = Zoloft

Yes, he actually thinks that if I just 'set my mind to it', I can accomplish this with what he's willing to give. Yes, he is being more of a giver - but only the things he WANTS to give.

We had an argument in the doctor's exam room. After we left the doctor's office, we went to the grocery store (the usual Monday chore that I failed to accomplish because I was too busy trying to learn to be a hacker).

We argued at the grocery store, too - about my two children, DD17 and DS15. He kept making comments about how expensive they are.

"We are really going to have to cut down on the buying of DS15's junk food"

"You know, we need to start weaning DD17 to start paying her own auto insurance - she'll be out of the house soon."

"DD17's dog's food is an extra expense."

"DD15's auto insurance is sure going to be expensive."

After that, I began to feel so guilty that I'd had enough and said as much!

I told him that I wanted to separate our money and our expenses. Some may view this as a bad idea - but it sure seems better than having to constantly feel guilty for how much my children cost and feeling like they are a burden to him.

My children have been an issue in the past for him. He has often felt stressed over it because he seems to think he is not old enough to have two teenaged step-children. I guess 31 is not mature enough to deal with that. I am 35, and I have been dealing with it since I was 18. I, however, consider 'dealing with them' a blessing, but then they are my children.

He has had issues with DD17 from the start of our relationship. He doesn't trust her, he says, because he knows what he was like as a teenager. I think this was a large factor in his reluctance to commit to me from the start. THAT MAKES ME SO ANGRY!!!!!

How about judging her on her own merits! He can't even offer a valid reason not to trust her! Really, you should see this kid - she's amazingly mature! She is kind to everyone and ultra-responsible.

I never have to wonder where she is - she ALWAYS calls and informs me of her activities. She doesn't do drugs. She doesn't drink. She is focused on school and makes excellent grades. She is focused on college. She is always pleasant to him and has never, ever said an unkind word to him - or about him. She helps around the house without being asked. She does her own laundry. She has even been known to take my grocery list to the store for me to get groceries for the whole family. Last night, when Patriot and I got home from the grocery store - she thanked us for going.

What is wrong with this picture????? One would think he would have seen my having kids who were teenagers as an assett, rather than a liability. They are almost out of the house! Isn't that better for him than stepping into a relationship that involved two very young children, as most women my age have? He has actually commented before that it is kind of awkward for him to explain to people how old my children are! I guess it embarrasses him that I was a teenaged mother.

What did my children ever do to him, but accept him and allow HIM to intrude on their lives?

I can pay for my own children. I do not see it as a burden at all. I am financially self-sufficient and it's not as though he is supporting me and my children. I would rather separate our income and expenses than have to feel guilty because the money for my daughter's dog's food came out of the checking account that was his before we were married (nevermind the fact that it now has my name on it, too, and I put a sizable deposit into that account every single week).

He says he doesn't feel that way. Then why all the comments? And let's face it, this has been a problem for him in the past - not just resenting my kids, but LYING about how he truly feels.

We avoided each other after we returned home from the grocery store last night. And this morning - well, of course, he acted as though nothing ever happened.

I detest avoiding conflict! I would rather work through it than pretend like it's not there. Pretending like it's not there fosters resentment, and builds walls.

Sometimes I wonder what I am even still doing here. This has DESTROYED my life for the last six months! He has no idea what that feels like. He hasn't even had to face what he DID - not to himself, not to me, and not to anyone else (since they don't know). He gets to go on looking like the great guy to everyone.

Inside, he knows he hasn't been the great guy, and for that I am expected to have sympathy for him and how terrible his life is. I am supposed to pity him because he now has to live with a wife who is hurt, and know that he caused it. I DO NOT FEEL SORRY FOR HIM!!!! He knew exactly what he was doing! This didn't just "happen"! He chose it! And it's not like it was a one night stand, for which he felt horrible and never repeated - he chose it over and over and over and over for a year and a half! He would probably be choosing it still, had he not been caught.

There are plenty of men who think I am attractive. There are plenty of men who would have valued being in a relationship with an attractive woman, who owns her own successful business, and has two terrific teenagers and can date without having to find a babysitter. He didn't value it. He destroyed it!

So, then why did he marry me? Because I had finally "earned" it in his eyes - by standing by him after what he did???? I feel as though he has offered me some sort of compensation by marrying me! How is it that I am expected to believe that, suddenly, being married to me is the most important thing to him, when all this time he ran from it - even had an affair in an attempt to sabotage it? Is that supposed to make me feel valued? Am I supposed to feel sorry for him because his life sucks now and be eternally grateful that he married me and wants to work on Recovery? Is he forgetting that, if not for HIS selfishness and immaturity, neither of us would need to RECOVER from anything?

Frozen - I know how you feel. My WH was the same way about my boys. He was very critical all of the time, and complained about me spending money on them. And get this - the money I spent on them was THEIR money from social security from their dead dad.

It used to make me steam inside. I suggest you keep your accounts separate. WH and I agreed to get the kids their first cars, and pay the insurance for a year. We bought his kids cars, and my first son. Then WH changed his mind and refused to do it for my second son - who by the way, is a good son.

Sorry, don't want to turn this into my own vent - but please know that you are not alone.

Frozen:

Sounds to me like continued FOGGY CONVERSATION to justify the A in his mind. You get upset, you feel like the bad guy...

This is emotionally abusive to you. You have been wounded and need comforting by him at this time.

There is something very wrong about this picture.

I'm validating and understanding your desire to vent...

Believer,

Thanks for the empathy. It's nice to feel understood.



Mimi,

Do you mean foggy conversation on my part?

NO! Foggy conversation on his part!

Did I get it wrong? Did he have an A?

Hi Froz.....

I am so sorry for your pain and frustrations!!!! I know EXACTLY how you feel.....

My WH will not disclose ANYTHING about his A.....still protecting OW. The only things I know about are what I have found out myself.....and then he expects me to just get over it. All the promises he made in order to come back home are all left unmet.

I got my own checking account last September....when I kicked WH out the second time. We still have separate checking accounts. It has worked out well in one sense....WH now knows how much things cost, and has to pay his own bills (always talking about how broke he is, and he brings home twice what I do!).

He treated me and our children (DS 31 and DD 29) so badly during the past 3+ years (during his A). Now, he said he is tired of "catering" to us (being nice). When is someone going to "cater" to him? What about his feelings?

He figures he has "catered" to us by providing a living for us all these years - something which is his responsibility and his duty to his family (which is exactly what I told him). And he totally leaves out the fact that I have always worked.

This time WH insisted that we go to MC. We have gone to two others (including SH). But they were too pushy to poor WH.

Anyway, I could go on and on (and sorry for the "vent" jack).

I do not have any real advice for you - my situation is also frustrating. And similar in some ways to yours.

Are you in MC? I found it helpful to go to the MC on my own one time - so he could know my side of the story (and to vent) - seeing as WH has been seeing him as an IC for a while. And he gave me some helpful advice, and now knows the WHOLE story (WH didn't give him the whole story).

Keep your chin up.....above all, protect your love, and your children. Sounds like they are great kids.

K <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Of course it's safe to vent here....keep venting...

I just wanted to pass along a big hug and say I'm so sorry you are feeling this way right now.

One quick question though....

Any chance you could trade me your 17DD for my 16DS for a couple weeks?

I'd really treasure having a teenager in my house that helps out willingly, even if only for a short time.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Better yet, send Patriot over to my place for a few weeks...I promise he will come home with a new appreciation for your girls....Lets see, we'll start with car insurance. He thinks DD's insurance is expensive? Try a 16 year old boy with average grades! Christ his insurance cost more than what I paid monthly when I bought my first new car!

Food? 2 teenage girls food is expensive? Thats a joke...I have a 6'1" 16 year old that weighs about 240 and has yet to meet a food he doesn't like and a 14 YO that is 6' 200lbs. and could eat a whole cow and ask for a gallon of ice cream for dessert! I work out and am 6' 235 and eat a lot too...I could feed a whole village in India with my grocery bill each month...thank God my 2 little ones haven't started their growth spurts yet!

Reward your Daughter for doing well in school and focusing on college by making her get a job? What is he going to say when tuition bills start coming in? I have nothing against kids getting small part time jobs at all but shouldn't the focus be on the positives here? He has a well-behaved teenager, does well in school, helps around the house, treats you with respect...am I missing something here?

But back to the topic....

I point those things out because it doesn't sound like the real issue is expense here, and you know it too. Even if you seperate your finances there will be something else to complain about like...fill in the blank....you know him better than I do. Thats why you know this isn't about your daughter's, it's about him.

Why do you think he feels you owe him? Because you married him? Because he married a woman with kids? Does he think he took you in somehow? Did it out of the goodness of his heart?

This stuff with the kids and the affair, how he treats you, are symptoms of a larger problem and Dear, it sounds to me like you are dealing with a self-centered, selfish child.

He isn't old enough to have teenage daughters? He may have spoken more truth in that one sentence than you've heard your entire marriage. Think about it....Hmmmmm....I know what I think about it.

Well continue venting as needed, we are here for you Frozen

RebornMan

Well, dang Frozen ...I had NO idea that Patriot was STILL acting this way.

IMO you have every reason to Vent!

He really had me "hood winked" after he took the time to create that whole thread to "new WS " here on MBers.

Sounds like he needs to address his own House, BEFORE branching out into the rest of the board.

He is Blowing it Big Time, by Refusing to Give up the Ghost.

I mean if its over, Just Come Clean Already.

You RIGHTLY have questions that you NEED answered (and that NEED ain't just going to go away).

Your M will not survive (& be healthy) if he does not change his attitude.

Sorry for your continued frustrations.

Yeah. Burn the childish, selfish [email]f@#ker[/email] at the stake. I say send him packing....

oh.. wait. This is about me.

Gee whiz... if I only had the time to explain my side of the story, but I am sure that wouldn't matter.

Oh.. and we have a daughter and a son. not 2 daughters. So I know full well about the eating habits of a young teenage boy. And I know about the insurance. And so on.

substantial deposits into the account? like I am some deadbeat? Like I didn't provide a safe and secure home for 2 children?

I am not perfect and have still not sat down and had the talk, although the fact is she knows quite a bit. She thinks she doesn't because "it was all lies" but she knows a substantial amount. Fine though. That I can fix.

Such a scathing assault, really... and I am not exactly sure what a reasonable person would do with this...

So, flame away. Assault me and my character all you wish. I most certainly understand that I destroyed a very beautiful person who in no way deserved anything but the perfect husband.

Possibly, if I have a moment later, I will post something to defend myself.

Patriot...

Rather than take this all as a personal attack, why not take the chance here to TALK about the issues that are apparently left unresolved???

She's clearly identified some needs that she's asking you to fulfill. She's outlined some definite problems and issues that your relationship still have...so what are the BOTH of you going to do to fix them?

What about needs that YOU have?

I say that you both should try to stop lashing out, and start TALKING...here on this thread if you're having trouble doing it in person.

Patriot - there are always two sides to the story, but her pain and venting might be coming from the fact that the A STILL doesn't make sense to her, as you haven't told her the details.

I thought you were going to tell her weeks ago - you talked about it on Mother Days weekend. I know you are scared about the anger she will have, but do it, put up your shell, let her get upset and then she can grasp it.

You need to get these done, or these arguments you guys have will not go away. Right now you are considered a liar still. You will be for awhile, but you can help that re-trusting process by telling her anything she needs to know.

God I know it sucks to have to look at yourself that way, but anything you say about her, the kids, the dog is going to blow up - because she is still focused on what you HAVEN'T done for her, so in her mind you have no RIGHT to make comments.

I am not saying these issues will go away once you get it all out, but atleast she can put her curiousity to rest and heal from that. Right now, you guys will ALWAYS go back to her wondering, no matter how much effort you are putting in Pat.

Patience, my friend, patience. And courage. Sit down, no time is a good time, never, but just sit down and do it - do it tonight.

As horrible as it will feel, and as much venom as she may spit as you reveal details, as a human being, you will feel a huge weight lifted that you no longer have to worry about hiding it, or protecting her. And once it has all settled in her mind, she will feel better too.

You can do it Pat.

And Froz, I am so sorry you are hurting this way. Remember though - if you want the marriage to work, both of you can't LB. Is there anything at all you have done to make Pat feel unsafe? Maybe that's why he is STILL reluctant to tell you details. Hang in there my dear - you are a great mother, and a great woman! Say a prayer, take a deep breath and remember that - you are GREAT!

-ds

Patriot -

You have been reading here, and must know that the BS needs to hear the truth about the affair. Please get busy answering frozen's quetions. And blessings to you and your marriage.

Your reasons, excuses or justifications are meaningless at this point.

If you truly want her to get healthy:
Just answer "whatever" questions she asks truthfully and honestly (without omissions and INTERNAL "editing").

Lies, omissions, slanting, or any deception of any kind (once the A is supposedly OVER) ...IMO are MORE damaging to any potential recovery than the A Itself.

Cause for many of us finding out about the A (although painful) ...truly is a Huge Wake up call.

But the Never ending (what a BS considers continued ongoing deception) just destroys any love, trust or credibility we are attempting to salvage.

YOUR NOT protecting your S or your M, by being elusive OR evasive.
Its too bad, if you can't see that!

RM,

You must have misunderstood. My youngest child is a boy - a very LARGE one who, when we order pizza, requires his OWN pizza!!!!! I know where you're coming from on that, teenage boys can EAT!

Also, I do require that my daughter get a job in the summer to help with her expenses. That is MY rule. I see no point in allowing teenagers who are of working age to just sit around and be lazy. During the school year, provided their grades are up to par, I would rather their efforts be focused on their education.

I know the auto insurance for my son will be expensive next year. Fortunately, his grades are EXCELLENT. He currently has a GPA of 4.2 and that will help. He has already been warned by me that this is his last lazy summer for the rest of his life. Beginning next summer, he will be 16 and I will also require him to get a job, rather than sleep all day and stay up all night playing video games.

I believe I do reward my daughter for her good behavior. As long as she continues to display the judgment and maturity she does, I will allow her, accordingly, the privileges of someone who is mature and uses good judgment.

When I mentioned that I felt like Patriot was rewarding me, by marrying me...I should have given a little background info, for those who weren't aware of the situation.

We married AFTER the affair. Patriot seemeed to have some commitment phobia, even though we had already moved in together. I sensed his reluctance about marriage and tried to discuss it with him then. He swore up and down that he did want to marry me - more than anything, and that it was merely my "low self-esteem" that was causing me to believe he did not want to marry me.

We got engaged last September, D-Day was in November, and the wedding was already scheduled for December. I married him, regardless of everything that had transpired.

So, I guess what I meant was that I feel like he married me (finally made that ultimate sacrifice) as a reward for what he put me through - like I had to "earn" it. He didn't say that. I will admit that that is my own perception and emotion speaking. But, it is how I feel a lot of the time.

He didn't want to marry before (even though he told me he did). It makes me angry when he says now that being married to me is what brings him joy, and that he loves the fact that I am his wife. It makes me angry because:

Why wasn't I good enough to marry before?

If he had an A, due in part to the fact that he says he feared marriage, but now that marriage is what makes him the happiest - then WHAT A WASTE!!!!!

All of this pain for nothing??????? When being married to me is what would have made him happiest all along??????

I also don't really see how being married to me is so great for him. We have been married for 5 months - all while trying to heal and Recover from his A. How could that be happy for him - I don't understand.

On a sidenote, I feel pretty horrible now that I have vented. I feel like I just bashed my husband, publicly. He has made progress and it was not my intent to take that away from him. I know he will read this and now I feel bad. It was pretty selfish of me to risk having him feel put down, so that I could get my frustrations out.

I suck.

Frozen - He has already read it. Don't feel bad - maybe he needs to hear things from someone other than you.

frozen, you don't suck, but I agree that it's not fair to Patriot to have to see his shortcomings aired on the internet. He should hear about them privately and not have to defend himself from the angry mob at Marriage Builders. That's a bit much to ask anyone!

Froz:
Don't you dare permit Him to turn this around on YOU!

(Yes, your not perfect ....but we can discuss YOUR faults or challenges on another thread).

For now, on this thread:
THIS is about HIM and what he's NOT Doing!

Lets not muddy the waters by Bringing in everything and anything (including the kitchen sink).

So:
He's not Happy about being "called out" for his Actions.

OH Well, then DO what Needs to be done .....and this "problem" (in his mind) Goes Away.

His Actions ( or in action, like being completely Honest) is what Prompted this thread from you.

In fact:
I'm confident you've told him this very "stuff" in private and in person.

Its NOT YOUR FAULT if he "chooses" to ignore you.

Or think "his" way, is what YOU NEED!
(or deserve?)

That's his Problem (and the sad part is) if he's just do what HE darn well "knows" he should ...this issue would go away ...(and in fact needed NEVER have even been brought out here on the board to begin with).

Froz,
your expectations are NOT unreasonable.
On the contrary,
They are completly Normal.

Sadly,
He Brought this on himself, so lets see if he decides to "do the right thing"
OR
Instead decides to continue to Stone Wall and attempt to "defend" his indefensible position.

(Sorry but a continued deceptive WS just Burns my Azz).
Especially when its all in the name of "protecting" the BS feelings.

What utter Rubbish!

ummmmmmmmm....

Perhaps marrying Patriot after learning of his cheating without demanding to know all the gruesome details before the wedding .... perhaps this pre-marital decision gave Patriot the impression you had processed the affair and were ready to put it behind you ????

Pep

ok... first. Calm down. I have absolutely zero intention of turning anything around on anyone.

As for the "hood winked" stuff... I have stated many times that I am not perfect. That I still have obstacles to overcome. That I still have mountains of learning to do.

I an no way ever stated that I was a fully recovered FWS and that I was the model with which to measure one's self.

If the quickstart guide and the toolkit has given you this impression, then I request you rethink your stance on it. I did those posts not for recognition or fame. I didn't do those posts as information for the poor WS coming from the grand FWS wizard that has been there and has done that.

I plainly stated that I did them because I saw a need for the WS(including me) and that it was as much a learning experience for me as it might be for other WS's that read it.

My wife does not suck. She has every right to come on here and say whatever she wishes. That is fact. I completely understand that her feelings are destroyed and I did it.

remember... she's "psycho". Because I put her there. My fault. My choices. My failures and lack of character at the point of impact.

So... Froz. You don't suck. You have every right to say what you wish. I understand your need to vent. Yesterday was horrible for you and all I got was the explanation. I didn't have to deal with it. The explanation sounded terrible as it was. So feel safe to vent here. I will not use this against you. I believe I have never used a post here against you. I will not start now.

I'm still here. And your healing is still the most important thing.

Well, after posting that last bit, I now see that he has read it. I also got an e-mail from him and he is hurt and I hurt him. I feel utterly horrible.

He is right, there are two sides to that story. I tried to give credence to that fact when I noted that some of the things were my perceptions, not things he actually said. I wish he would defend himself because I don't wish for him to feel attacked - particulary when he hasn't been heard.

He was kind to me when he took me to the doctor yesterday. That panic attack was pretty nightmarish. I used to suffer from them a long time ago, and they keep trying to pop up on occassion lately. He comforted me during it, and has continued to try to grow and learn.

I am sitting here now, vacillating - feeling horribly sorry then feeling horribly angry.

Nice Froz: I just discredited and disrespected my husband in public. I made him feel horrible and I blasted him and made him look bad. I am NOT a good wife for doing that.

Bad Froz: I am tired of being stuck in this same place. He leaves me here, comforting me while I am suffering - yet being unwilling or unable to help me move forward. I feel like telling him to KEEP his secrets if he wants them so badly. If they are so important to him, more important than facing them and facing me so that we have a chance at being close - he can have them. I hate that I have to FIGHT to get him to do this. I wanted him to be more than willing to do it because he wanted to be close to me. I wanted him to do it because he valued our M, and was willing to face his fears to protect it.

Nice Froz: I think I just withdrew some serious love units today. I should take my own advice about protecting my H, and protecting my M. I don't value myself too much right at this moment - why would he?