Lemonman:

I have been eagerly awaiting your return to the forum.

I wish I could undo my post to you on May 11. I have been tempted to delete it. However, then, I would be attempting to "rewrite" history.

I do want you to know that I totally agree with your observation that I was blowing your post "WAY OUT OF PROPORTION".

I struck out to you in irrational anger for some reason. There was some sort of trigger going on... Of course, you know about PTSD and all that stuff. However, that is no excuse for making you the brunt of my anger. In retrospect, it would have been better for the both of us to discuss our issues with each other. I do have questions that I would like to ask you about what I perceive to be indirectness and sarcasm in communications.

My way of handling ANGER has been FIGHT OR FLIGHT. You got some of both.

I hope you will feel free to communicate with me again. I would find it helpful to me to continue to communicate with you. It's your choice, of course, since I so arrogantly thought that I could dismiss you from my life.

I sincerely apologize.

Apology accepted. Thank YOU.

You can ask me whatever you want. Mimi, I am actually harmless, despite the "reputation" I have here. That is why I was suprised at your reaction to what I said, but those were your reactions and feelings and perhpas I should not have "brushed" you off from something that was obviously very upsetting and triggering to you. If you can learn to heal in any way from this, then I am all game. While I think you and I have many philosophical differences with respect to what goes on here, that doesn't make either of us "bad" people or anything like that. Agreeing to disagree is always ok with me (well, almost always... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />). I think an opportunity is lost when you just cut off communication because of the differences.

I am actually one of the "good guys", I just have a different way of showing it.

LM

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You guys both rock.

Love it when people see their faults and admit/learn from them...makes them more, um, wonderfully human IMO.

- Kimmy

On athread the other day I was told " you're becoming like lemonman bob !".

It meant I was calling a good person on letting themselves be treated like sh*t for the hundredth time and I took that as a complement.

MB can work brilliantly but its no reason or excuse for allowing yourself to be treated like crap.

Mimi this was a mature, confident post from you. Very cool indeed.

In fact Bob ... those who allow continues adulterous (and otherwise) crap to be heaped upon their heads over and over .... for far 2 LONG .... often sink the marriage much further into the deep blue sea than anything else ... in my opinion

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hey Bob, I called you a Lemonman! I like Lemonman. He helps keep us real. It good to have somebody around who can give you a verbal slap and say "Kiddo, you don't have to take that crap anymore. Wise up!"

Yes, I belive in marriage building but isn't so much of it about boundaries?

Good point. I agree.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

For clarification purposes, if necessary:

To LM and others:

MY primary issue specifically during my VENTING POST was not due to his viewpoint on Marriagebuilders theory. I reacted, albeit inappropriately, to what I PERCEIVED as sarcasm and indirectness during his post TO CC ABOUT ME. I like the idea that he is tough on folks. That seems to come from a caring place.

We do specifically disagree on SF during PLAN A. I felt putdown by him because I did this rather than an attempt being made to understand my position. We never resolved this. Hopefully, one day we will be able to OPENLY agree to disagree on this SPECIFIC issue.

If not, that's OK with me, too!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MImi:

I have been busy the past few days with work and have not been here much to respond to you about all of this. I think my biggest issue with you has been your stance on this exact SF issue. I am guilty of letting your stance on that subject cloud my TOTAL perception of you. I initially just could not find a way to even be respectful to you after you gave support to another poster in having SF with their actively cheating WS. Yes, I do know your reasons. It does not change how ****I feel**** about it.

In review of all of this, I can still say that I am strongly against any advice whatsoever that would sanction SF of any kind with an actively cheating spouse untill full STD testing has taken place.

I have re-read alot of your posts from when you were going through your nightmare with your FWH. I know why you did what you did. You put it succinctly when you said "it was worth risking my life" for my Husband. That statement speaks a lot of where you are coming from. I know that I have no right at all to judge you for yor actions, and for that I do apologize. I still belive that WE as a "community" here, should NOT "support" or encourage behavior that is known to be "risky" and "life threatning". Ron53's thread brought me to tears, and I hate so much how even one person here had this happen to them.

As much as you are passionate about Steve Harley and the core principles here, I am just as passionate about this subject.

We can respectfully agree to disagree here. I have no qualms at all in disagrreing with Harley here either. I am actually saddned that he gives this advice on this subject. But alas, we have "been there, done that" with this already. I am sorry that you have felt "singled out" by me in the past when this comes up. I readily admit that I can be very sarcastic at times, and yes that can make me seem like a roaring A-hole at times... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. I am who I am though. I tried "changing" my style here before and that was met with strong disapproval......even from those who hate me here.

If you disagree with me Mimi about other things I say (very likely in the future <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), that is A-ok. You don't have to threaten to not talk to me......just confront me on it. I am ok with that..truthfully I am. I don't mind being called out and asked to clarify or explain an opinion.

Anyways, I think we can put the SF issue to rest. We stronly disagree with each other, and that will never change. But that is ok, we can get past that.

Cheers,

LM

did you get my email lemon? I tried to email you the other day <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I haven't checked any email recently. I will check right now.

Got it, Sent you an email back. I was going to apologize for the thread jack, but technically this thread has my name on it, so I can't really TJ myself....I guess. I don't think Mimi will mind.

Lem

Lemonman -

I have to agree completely with you. I think it is very irresponsible for the Harley's to suggest that anyone continue having SF with a WS. Most WS's don't practice any kind of safe sex, and they are having SF with a questionable partner.

While most of us believe in marriagebuilding, I hope that it isn't marriagebuilding at any cost. It is completely insane to be willing to give up your life/health for an unfaithful spouse.

Hi Lemonman:

I appreciate your last post to me a lot. Thanks. We will officially agree to disagree on the SF.

As a Public Service Announcement for MB, though, I want to add this:

Steve Harley did not ENCOURAGE me in SF with my WH as part of MY PLAN . He knew what I was doing and did not explicitly or directly DISCOURAGE me.

Also there are LOTS of different considerations, not spelled out here, that allowed me to know that what I was doing was safe. That had to do with different manuevers, calculations and analyses that I did, including getting my own STD testing at certain times.

MY PLAN was very strategic and calculated! I was WAGING WAR on THE OW AND THE A!

Well, you read the story...

I understand that you disagree....

Something I've been meaning to say to you, Lemonman. You often seem to be attacking an imaginary adversary. You say things like, "although the folks on this board don't agree with me"..."I know all you following the MB principles will jump on me..." You rarely have a post that doesn't get a lot of support.

And a lot of stuff you say DOES fit in with MB principles, even the ones that people forget ... like "Plan A" doesn't go on for twenty years, that's called "enabling"; yelling and resenting and staying married is not "Plan A," either. It's enduring. And Plan B seems right down your alley. A lot of MB is commonsense.

Just questioning why you see yourself positioning yourself as oppositional.

Well you do bring up valid points. When I first started posting here I was really hard core ANTI-MB in every way. Through my own trials and tribulations, I finally figured out that alot of that was just my displaced anger with my own pain and struggles. I had to work though it. I had (and still have) a lot of trouble watching some people here get continually $hit on and betrayed over and over again, and yet find dupport to "save their marriage". I want to scream....SAVE YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!If I give contrary advice, I am considered bad for not "supporting" marriage builders.

I think this site is way more than "marriage building". Someone here called me a "failure" because I "failed" at my marriage, and while I know that she didn't mean that in the literal sense, in her minds and many others I am. To me, I am a raging MB success story. I am happier now than I have ever been in my life. The constraints of making money and impressing my colleagues with the best car, and the best house no longer drives me. There is more to my life than medicine and making money and finding prestige. I only learned that now after 36 years of life. Where alot of people find their identity in their marriage and spouse, I found mine in my job. I thought because I was an MD and had a lot of "respect" that I was somebody, but that kind of stuff is just B$. There will always be someone smarter or better looking, or whatever....so in the end you just have to find happiness in yourself. When you do that, you open a whole new "lot" of possibilities.

I owe a lot of that to Marriage Builders. My marriage was not saved, but my life was. Only now removed from the dysfunction can I see that. Like many people here, I rewrote the marriage pre-affair, and made it in my head to be so much better than it truly was. My marriage failing does not define me. There is a woman walking around right now in this world who does not know me or know I even exist, but she will someday be thanking my EX-W for her actions....MY EX-W will always have an admirer I suppose. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I actually have come to agree with MANY of Harely's principles, most notably his stance on exposure, his stance on COMPLETE NC if a marriage is to have any chance of recovery, and his plan B method. I think his PLAN B if done to the "letter" is a genius idea. My problems with the principles are the Plan A. I do agree with the spirit of the PLAN, but in reality, that is not how it is practiced here. PLAN A often becomes a whipping contest of how much B$ and abuse can a BS take before they have to run for cover. The way it is done here, just enables the deceit to go on.

When I hear things like...."PLan A for life"....I cringe. When I see people say "I have been plan A'ing for 8 months" I shake my head in disbelief. I also do not buy the fact of "Emotional NEEDS" being such the component of affairs as he states. The fact is, people in good marriages cheat....if they can.

Lets all be honest here folks....many of our own former wayward spouses are only as faithful as their options. I hate to be so blunt, but those are the facts in a lot more instances than we all want to truly admit.

I disagree with Harely on some of the advice he has given with regards to SF while still in an affair. (and NO, this has nothing to do with MIMI, this is directly off of the website Q & A section. His advice to do NC with a child from one's own flesh and blood absolutely horrifies me ( my own allowed opinion)..

So AM MARTIN, to answer your question, while I do believe in a lot of the principles here, there is so much that I don't agree with. I am always mindful that people know my beliefs on something becasue I do not want to "mislead" them. I am a what you get what you see guy. While ofcourse I do not want to be a hated pariah here, I am still always mindful that MANY of my thoughts and beliefs are not Marriage building accepted. For that reason, I still qualify many of my posts.

I hope I answered your question.

Cheers,

LM

Lemonman,

Since you seem to be online at the hour, and I'm in a mood not to sleep, thought I ask you to give an overview of this "rebuilding of life" that you've been going through. Remind me how long you've been D'ed and what's going on with you. I've seen you around from time to time but never posted to your or followed your story closely.

-AD

Well, I have to admit I'm with you on that one. My WH (or whatever he is now) has a sexual addiction. Couldn't turn down sexual attention from anyone -- no matter how weird the source, no matter how loving I was. Ended two previous Ms that way. Couldn't stop the porn, either.

There's a few ENs you can't give a longstanding spouse: Novelty (or anonymous sex). Unqualified adoration. Mature love is different. Unfortunately, he had more problems than I could deal with.

Plan A'ed as best I could for about a month -- part of that a false recovery. Found out only later that the Harleys say you don't have to Plan A in the case of sexual addiction. Since you weren't part of the problem, you don't have to "prove" you can change.

I have done Plan B pretty much to the letter. Wish I'd blocked his email earlier. I could have saved myself a lot of misery. I loved him to pieces; Plan B saved me a lot of time getting over it. So I'm one of the "failures" too -- but I do think I got the best of a bad situation.

He's still shacked up with his mentally unstable lesbian, a woman everybody is trying to distance themselves from. I get a life. Not such a bad deal.

aam,

Sorry, I am jacking this thread, but I now finally understand where you are at.

I never did understand why your WS did what he did, in your face, but now I do.

(((((hugs))))))

My FWS had sexual addiction problems also, but somehow has seen the light so to speak. There has only been one exception in 5 years. It is such a struggle for those addicted.

I am fortunate that my H is working thru all this. It really was a major factor in our marital grief, and led to his a. He has come so far. I am so thankful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just wanted you to know I feel for you hon.

Love in Christ,
Miss M