When did facing "uncomfortable" issues become verboten?

You said this to DS. I wanted to open a discussion with you about this.

I have gone in cycles since D-day : CA, agressively thrusting every issue and then being deliberately passive but fearing I am being CA again.

After a married life of CA its taken (and taking me) some time to readjust.

But I have come to believe that it is self indulgent to present every issue a person has for immediate handling to another regardless of circumstance.

This is for some soft reasons IMO but also some very hard reasons.

Take me for example.

I want to get issues regarding apology and some post-fog statements dealt with by Squid.

Previous attempts got entitlement and fog as a hurtful response. I mostly wish I hadn't bothered now. Timing was WRONG-DIDDLY-WRONG in rerospect. I wasted a LOT of discussion in the fog. I asked wrenching questions and got foggy responses. they hurt at the time, but now I see they were just fog. Mostly anyway.

Squids attitude has almost certainly changed considerably now she is out of the fog.

However right now she's handling the demise of her Mom who is alive against cancer and stroke's best efforts to kill her. Squid's head is a mess over this and my total support through this has elevated Squids respect and love for me to new levels.

So in the context of the rest of our lives together, why would I present my 'apology' issues to her for handling NOW when It will surely procure a crisis-tinted response AND possibly make me appear self-centred at this time of existential crisis for her and her Mom ?

It raises interesting questions to me though - such as in a lifetime of ups and downs when IS a good time to get issues handled ?

Many issues get 'accidentally' processed over time also. Either they lose their one-time importance OR they get responded to without petition.

So I would submit that 'handle my issue now' is a manipulation and control play in many cases. For me certainly from time to time ( though I stopped when I realised this).

So...we don't present issues for handling because the times not right, and issues lose importance or get fixed themselves over time.....and you're left with a load of CA justification crap again.

In summary I'm saying that handing issues requires a smore sensitive approach than 'slap it down and chat it out' but too much sensitivity can look a whole lot like CA.

You have any thoughts Pep ?

Hey Bob, Every time I think of quitting these boards, I pop on just to see if there is something new that might help me, if even for a moment. Although a totally different sitch., I can relate to your thoughts on this.

But I am curious about why the apology is so crucial to your recovery. My W has apologized once. In MC, under directions from Counselor. That is it, never one on one, in a sincerly meaningful way.

I don't think most WS's feel sorry, They are have justified it for themselves somehow. Just because we,BS's, feel we need this or are owed it somehow, doesn't mean they feel this way. After all, what do they need to be sorry for? We accept them back. Want to plan A all the time, all the guilt, and pressure is on us to be the good guy. Like we are the ones that cheated.

What will an apology do for us? Would you consider it sincere? after all, the apology would be for us, not them.

Is there a little bit of bitterness in this? yea probably, but I don't understand this whole betrayal thing, at all.
Why is it up to us to to absorb most of the pain in this?
Why did this happen? why did they find it so easy to disrespect us and marriage? and then come back in the marriage and expect us to just forget the past, lets work on the future.

So why should we hope for an apology? What will it do for you?

Hi bOb,
I don't post oftenbut I can't help noticing your consistent theme of expecting something more from your squid. Forgive me if i'm wrong, but what I see from you in expecting the apology you so fervently want, is that now that YOU have done everything right, you are now looking for just compensation for all your hard work. Am I right about this or way off base?
I only see it b/c that is where I am at after very nearly three years after DDay. I have come to the conclusion that a just compensation on the part of our WW's is simply not possible. They know and have known it right from the very start. It's you and I that don't get it and probably never will.
This is where true forgivness must step in. We(and especially me) have to come to a place in out hearts, where we release our WW from the debt that we believe they owe us. That is what true forgiveness really is. I sruggle daily, as you do, thinking that there must be more that they can do to ease MY pain. They don't understand it completely and more importantly, what the feel probably more strongly, is guilt and shame, as opposed to real remorse for what they have done to US.
Perhaps, bob, we should focus on healing our WW in an act of forgiveness, and then see what happens from there on out.
This is a marothon, Bob, not a sprint. Just my Humble opinions. May not be worth verymuch at all.
Jerry

Hi HNH !

You a eriht in many things.

Active WS do not feel or say 'sorry'. They live a deluded, justified dream mostly and sorry doesn't exist for them.

However, I urge you to read posts by FWS and you see that sorrow and regret and SORRY is written through them like the stripes through candy.

All successful recoveries I have read are defined by forgiveness from the FBS and repentence from the FWS.

WITH these recovery is possible. WITHOUT these I do not think a true recovery is possible.

An apology is important to me because as I asked Squid about teh details of her affair while she was withdrawing and I got some very distrurbing answers to my questions.

My studies of MB have shown me that many or most of these statements were 'fog-induced' and that her behaviour sune dictates her real feeelings now.

To say " I am sorry I had an affair, you did not deserve i and I wa snot justified in it" would at a stroke let me KNOW that Squid is recovering well. She BEHAVES like she is, but teh words are important to me.

So thats what an apology would give me. It would be a gift of repentence from her to me.

I'm very close to that now. We've made great strides these last couple of days.

HNH I hope you've been studying Harleys books and this forum. ( Not reading STUDYING).

Affairs are like a disease with similar symptoms , prognosese and treatements. You could remove a LOT of your hurt and resentment by studying.

Its gets better with increased knowledge and doing the right thing. I promise.

All blessings

Hi ST

I agree with much of what you say !

The insult of infidelity is far to great for a WS to ever compensate for it. And the only way for a FBS to deal with this FACT is forgiveness.

As I told HNH above, every recovery I've ever seen work well has been characterised by repentence and forgiveness.

I struggled for a long while but back my hatred an dresentment was eating me up and with help from Atruheart, RIF and ForeverHers on these boards ( and a LOT of prayer) I made the decision to forgive Squid.

I laid down my right to recompense and justice. I destroyed my evidence of her affair with her, and assured her before God that I would not hold her affair over her.

I even bought her a new wedding ring to symbolise our new covenant.

That forgiveness was for ME more than Squid.

It was like laying a sack of rocks down at the roadside on a hot day's march.

The world improved from that moment on for me and for Squid.
Its a process not an action and I have to renew my commitment to forgive some days, when I learn some new hurt, or get triggered but I always offer it up to God in forgiveness. And it works.

I believe now that BECAUSE infidelity is so huge and impossible to compensate for it actually makes forgiveness the ONLY THING that can remove the "elephant from the living room".

I read your sit Jerry, I am sad for you. I'll pray for you.

Thanks for your care.

bob has always said squid had/has issues in accepting responsibilty and apologizing when wrong. i think he is looking for "growth" in squid with this apology. proof so to speak that she is working through her stuff.....

Bob...did you read this post of Pep's (scroll down) concerning conflict

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Saw that Suze...in fact I think I killed the thread ! LOL !<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've been following you, Bob.

I may sound like a broken record. However, it seems like your FWW is repentant to me. You, of course, are there and know her better. Although repentant, it seems like she can't say the words.

Yes, I have heard the words of apology from my FWH. Not very often, maybe only once or twice. However, for me, his actions mean so much more to me. He used to say a lot of lies and deceitful words to me. So I put a lot more credence in his actions.

I've been noting your W's actions...like being excited about meeting you for lunch! That's MAJOR, BOB!! Coming from a GODDESS..... THAT's MAJOR! You are wanting a woman to feel that way about you!!

Just my opinion after JUST 18 months in RECOVERY....

I do think that my H's recurrent accepting of responsibility, apologies,repentance, and reassuring love has all gone a long way to helping our recovery, intimacy, and my ability to put it behind us and heal. Triggers are few and far between now. He is sweet and loving so much that at times I wonder what I've done to deserve such wonderful treatment.

Because of our history, I still will not trust 100%. I realize there was a part of him that was more than capable of deep deception, betrayal, and a secret second life. I guess that is part of the reason I stay here....to keep my awareness skills sharp. He isn't always happy that some of the things I read here tend to keep the subject of infidelity a bit too close to the surface of our lives at this point.

I believe he would prefer that it (the subject of A's) be completely forgotten. Maybe at times I am more vigilent than our reality warrants. I never want to be in denial again. I think that one of Alphelions post yesterday where he described his WW's LTA affected me.

I agree with the significance of DENIAL-NEVER AGAIN!

That's how enabled his A!

But I have come to believe that it is self indulgent to present every issue a person has for immediate handling to another regardless of circumstance.

I agree. Except I agree for different reasons. I'm not sure about the "self indulgent" stuff ... but for me, it's impractical. It does not work to bring all things up and demand an immediate result/response. I am pragmatic most of the time. And when something does not work... and does not work ... and does not work ... it's probably time to abandon the technique and try something else.


Timing was WRONG-DIDDLY-WRONG in rerospect. I wasted a LOT of discussion in the fog.

LOL .... no kidding!

I asked wrenching questions and got foggy responses.

Every BS has done this Bob, not just you.



It raises interesting questions to me though - such as in a lifetime of ups and downs when IS a good time to get issues handled ?

Bob, you may be missing the main point of what I said to DS .... If the sole reason for avoiding a discussion is this ---> "I will make so-and-so uncomfortable if I bring this issue up." ... I say *phooey* <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />


So I would submit that 'handle my issue now' is a manipulation and control play in many cases.

And that was not my point Bob ... but handle it when the timing is right even tho it feels uncomfortable.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Oh Bob ... about YOU needing a sincere verbal apology in order to feel more completely recovered ...

I say this ...

NO ONE but *BOB* can determine what it is that YOU need ... so don't be talked out of anything you need.

But be honest asking yourself tough questions

why do I need this?
what if I never get this?
how will this change me when I get this?
Do I need to change anything myself in order to get this?

that sort of self-dialogue ... the stuff that forwards your personal recovery

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Pep, I know what I need. I am far more self-examined and assured these days than of old. But thanks.

I need the apology becauseit is one of the most uncomfortable thinsg Squid could ever do for me over something this important.

The gesture value would be enormous, absolutely enormous.

As the self-reinforced arrogance of Squid post-afair has crumbled its clear now that I am miles ahead of her in personal recovery terms.

Conversations yesterday and today show that her entitlement and justification has crumbled leaving only brutal guilt and shame.

Much work. I wish I was better at this.

You really are such a big-ole-dummy sometimes Bob dear ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

YOU already ARE better at this!

NO ONE gets better at this without doing it first !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi Bob,

I understand about the apology, I would like that too. I have, in fact, gotten one a few days ago and probably 2-3 other times. The problem is that he still lies about small stuff, that I know of. So, when he apologizes, I really can't believe him (or won't?). My IC suggested I write out a victim's impact statement as I didn't think my husband "got it". I believe he wanted to sweep it under the rug and not talk about it. Worked on the impact statement for a couple of weeks, it was better for me than him I think. I wrote how the A impacted me as a person, female, mother, sister, friend, employee and co-worker. It has really impacted all aspects of my life in an upsetting and negative way. Totally different than the WS who have all those good feelings to remember, ego-boosting momements to go over and over in their minds. (still resentful)

Anyway, I read it to him and he apologized. But, my IC asked me if I believed him and I said that I didn't know. WH relayed to me a "white lie" he told to a friend a day later as he didn't want to be uncomfortable about something with the friend, in fact, he even blamed me for it!! So, apologies aren't always what they are cracked up to be, but I sincerely hope that you get what you want and need from Squid.