I was ready to go to the attorney and sign the papers and I just couldn't do it. I called wife and told her that I couldn't do it and asked how she felt. She said she didn't want a divorce but she couldn't . . . I stopped her right there and said let's just stick with the first part and we'll work on the second part.

Now for some reason I'm having second thoughts. I'm not sure I made the right decision. At least I felt like I was doing something. I really am obsessing over the lies and the "lack" of details. I'm going to try and push them to the back of my mind for a while and see what happens. I'm also going to go back on the meds so I'll be less emotional. I do wish they had some meds that don't interfer with the sex drive. It's the only part of our relationship that hasn't been completely ruined.

I'm going to give this another shot. I made an appointment with Jennifer Chalmers for next Wednesday night. Hopefully my wayward spouse will also talk to her with me. If not, I'm going to do this on my own.

Well hopefully I can turn the corner on this thing and start working on a better marriage.

Best wishes to you, GTO

I'm glad you're slowing things down and waiting to make such a decision with a clearer head. I know you are feeling outraged and overwhelmed right now. You have absolutely nothing to lose by waiting and trying a few other things for a time, and there is much that you might gain.

Calling Jennifer was an excellent idea. The folks here will help you and support you all we can.

Just hang in there -- we are all fellow passengers here on the *Titanic*. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Let us know how it's going.
Mulan

Grove,

The fact that you are uncertain that stopping the divorce, is a sure indication that YOU are not ready for that decision. Second, consider Wellibrutin (sp), it is more for anxiety I hear but apparently it does well as an anti-D, and apparently is much less likely to have side affects of the sort you mentioned.

You made a good decision, and you showed your W something whether you know it or not. Hang in there, and I beleive the information you seek will be forthcoming.

God Bless,

JL

Excellent, Grove.

You will not be sorry you tried even if it doesn't work.

Don't be concerned with self doubts. Normal.

WAT

Please keep us informed on how things go. I am extremely interested in your situation. I am in almost exactly the same boat. I do not know if my wife had a PA or not. The evidence is overwhelming but I do not know for sure. After one of her friends husbands told on her that she was basically dating this guy, she refuses to discuss it. She said she was sorry but it basically came out that she was sorry that she got caught. You can also tell that deep down she feels justified in her actions. She basically said that she went out with him but the details are off limits. She said there was no sex involved as she magically changed her mind at the last minute. We went to MC but she dropped out because I would not drop the subject of the A and move forward with the MC without discussing it. How can you deal with something and get closure if you cannot discuss it? I continued to meet with the therapist and finally he told me that he had no doubts that there was a PA and I was wasting my time on reconciliation if she was not going to admit the A and deal with it. That is where I stand as the ball is in my court. I have worked on Plan A for almost seven months and she is definitely not going to confess. If have not hired an attorney like you but I am at the end of my rope. I am going to have one more good summer with my kids. After the summer vacation ends, I am going to give her the firm ultimatum to confess or provide me proof that no PA existed. The method is up to her. I must have one or the other or I cannot stay married to her and be tortured by this on a daily basis. If it is not resolved then it will be on my mind for the rest of my life. This is unacceptable. I will be interested to see what advice that you get in your counseling and if you are able to put it behind you with no help or communication from your wife.

Threadjack -


This is what you ought to do with your ball, bob:

"We went to MC but she dropped out because I would not drop the subject of the A and move forward with the MC without discussing it."

Then don't discuss the A. Discuss the problems in your marriage that in part allowed the A to be cultivated.

"How can you deal with something and get closure if you cannot discuss it?"

You're not after closure. You're after saving your marriage, right? Deal with the problems in your marriage by first looking in the mirror and dealing with whatever YOU contributed to the poor state of the marriage. "Closure" - I hate that word - will come later, if ever.

"I continued to meet with the therapist and finally he told me that he had no doubts that there was a PA and I was wasting my time on reconciliation if she was not going to admit the A and deal with it."

Two things. It WAS a PA. Period. Now way it wasn't. Just accept this and DO NOT try to get your wife to admit it.

Second, ask for your money back from this so-called therapist because you wasted it. You could have moved that money from one pocket to the other - paying yourself - because that's the advice you're giving yourself. Until she comes clean, you're not doing ANYTHING! Right?

But you are correct, you and grove are in the same boat, but at least grove is bailing now.

Get a grip and swallow your pride. It's a losing approach to attempt to make your wives admit anything or do anything. It can't be done and this is one of the very first lessons usually learned here. You cannot make anybody do anything except - guess who? - YOU!

So bob, find a real counselor and start over. DO NOT make the affair the subject of the counseling - make your marriage the subject of the counseling. The affair is just a symptom. In the meantime, ask your wife what she was unhappy about with you in the previous several years. Do it sincerely. Take it with a grain of salt because she'll likely embellish it. But within those complaints are your keys to unlock the door to saving your marriage. Fix the things you can fix about yourself. It's a rare WS that shows himility before the BS does.

I'm starting to have second thoughts. I find myself obsessing about what my wife claims happened and what it really looks like happened. You feel like such a smuck, you want to scream at the top of your lungs, I KNOW THE TRUTH, I'M NOT AN IDIOT, so stop treating me like one.

Oh well, I made a decision tonight to give it some more time. The wife acted strange today when she got home and is a little distant tonight. But overall, what the heck, we'll see what happens. I had a great evening with my daughter, so that was cool.

grovetuckyohio, I understand you completely. You are looking at the same complete stranger that I am. Was this her first encounter? Will it be her last? Does this happen all the time and I am just getting clued in? Does everyone but me know about this and am I the laughing stock of the community? Am I the kid in high school going out with the girl that pulls trains for the football team? What a fun life. Can she take the time to ease my pain, put my fears to rest and give me some sort of peace of mind. Apparently, this is not important to her. I wanted to ask how you can still have sexual relations with your wife. I cannot. I don't know what I am being exposed to or I am the person that she is doing time with until something better comes along. I would kill to have sex right now but I could not do it and look her in the face. I cannot imagine kissing her. I would like to know your thoughts and how you do this.

Just a quick thought,

I doubt you will have any regrets, trying as hard as you can, for as long as you can.

grove - you and bob are caught in the very common BS trap of trying to make sense out of what's happening.

Re-read Rule #1

Assume your intuition is correct about what happened, put it aside for now, and work on those things you have control over to improve - yourself.

This is a come from behind contest. It's very early in the game and you expect to take the lead without running your play book by just wishing you were in the lead. This won't work.

Call a time out, talk with Jen, and then take control of your game.

I wasn't having problems with sex until last night. For the first time since this happened I thought of her being with the OM. It sucked.

Wife still claims no PA, but I doubt she is being honest.

Got into a big fight this morning. I asked how the job hunt was going and if she could bring a copy of the job postings home and we could go through them together. She blew up, said I was smothering her and that she wasn't sure she was going to take another job.

I kind of knew she wasn't really looking for another job, but I needed her to tell me. I told her again that this was very important to me and she said that I was being selfish.

She cried and said she couldn't take this anymore. I don't know how to handle this kind of situation. She's just unreasonable. She now says it wasn't an affair, because it was only phone calls. I reminded her it wasn't just phone calls and she said that she's choosing to forget that it was anything other than phone calls. That wasn't a very good statement to make.

My wife needs help and she's refusing to get any. I think she is overwhelmed by her feelings of guilt and (unfortunately) loss. This sucks.

Grove, she is using anger ("blowing up"), blame (saying that *you* are being selfish) and manipulation (tears) in an effort to get you to back off and leave her alone about her affair, now that simply hiding it and lying about it doesn't work anymore.

Again, this is right out of the script. It's something virtually all of them do.

Again, read up on Plan A. Plan A includes exposing the affair to family, friends and co-workers (probably the best "weapon" you have,) and it includes calmly telling her that you will never accept her having another man in her life as best friend, confidante, and/or lover. When she blows up at that, just walk away and go do something else. What matters is that you said it and she heard you. Her reaction is not important right now - you already know what that's going to be.

We are not telling you to tolerate her affair, or to tolerate her lying or manipulation. Plan A is just Step 1. Please read up on it.
Mulan

I would love to be able to expose the affair to co-workers, but that's a very dangerous thing and could backlash. She would be humilated and since I would be the cause of the humilation, I'm not sure I'd be doing in the love bank situation.

My wife refused to talk to Jennifer when she calls and is very upset with how much it will cost (at least that's her excuse). I'm on some thin rope here. I am ready to make a better effort at saving the marriage, but I also need a little help from her side. Or I would feel much better if she did do something positive. My love bank was already drained reasonably dry from the affair and the year of [email]H@L![/email] that my life was during the affair.

Unfortunately I'm getting that gut feeling again that something is up. She's either had a run in with him at work, I don't know, but she's hiding something. I just wish she would get into some kind of counseling for herself. No matter what happens, she needs some help.

For now, I'm not going to snoop. I'd like to check out her work e-mail, but she's not very open to me even showing up at her job, let alone looking at her email.

I also think her friend is still in contact with the OM, do you think I should try and verify this?

I've made it very clear that any contact with the OM is unacceptable. But I can't force her to tell me and I can't be with her 24 hours a day.

Since our house is still up for sale and we're not looking for a new house, she might be waiting for the house to sell before telling me she wants a divorce. So much to think about, I think I should just try and live a little and forget a lot.

grove, I do not know if you have addressed this or not. Does your wife give you the sense that she feels somehow justified in what she did? If so, do you get the feeling that this is why she feels that she owes you no explanation. I get the feeling that my wife feels this way. We got some very contradictory advice from worthatry earlier in this thread. Everyone else on this board says that there is nothing that a BS can do to cause their WS to have an affair. Your actions can cause them to leave but not commit A. Worthatry seems to say that your actions can cause an A. I do not know how to process this info in light of all the other posters. Worthatry also says that it is not important to get a confession or apology for the A but everyone else says that proceeding forward without the confession is only leading to the repeat of the process and a dooomed marriage. I seem to agree with the majority. What are your thoughts? If I do not get a confession from my WW then I feel that she gets validation that she was justified and we will get nowhere in any type of reconciliation. She will just go back to this same behavior the next time that we hit a rough period in our marriage. I would rather her pick up her stuff and leave me than cheat on me. My WW also refuses the MC unless talk of her relationship with the OM is offlimits. I will not resme the marriage unless I am reasonably assured that I will never have to go through that particular hell again. Will await your thoughts.

I don't get the feeling that my wife feels she was justified in having the affair. She does say that she unhappy and that must have been the reason. Sure I guess she is looking for someone to blame other than herself. WAT says some very good things, but sometimes I think it's a little over the top.

People with good marriages have affairs, so I refuse to put the blame on myself and what I did to cause the affair. I didn't cause her to make the choice she made, I helped cause an environment that lead to a troubled marriage. Before my wife's affair even started I asked her to go to counseling. She refused, she knew that a counselor would probably agree that going out until 2 in the morning and hanging out with you parents all the time isn't the best thing for your marriage. Then our daughter came, and we became centered on her. We stopped interacting with each other.

As for the affair, I'm not sure that we will ever be able to recover as long as she refuses to explain what happened. I'm going to give it one last shot, but I doubt I will be able to actually give 110 percent as long as there is so many questions she has decided to leave unanswered.

My wife believes that there is no way I will stay if she admits to a PA, and she may be right. Especially since she's waited so long and lied so much about it.

I still love my wife and I always will, but as the time presses on, I find that my patience and love is waning. I want and need total honesty from my wife, she on the other hand just wants a free pass and complete trust. She also wants to be able to "go out with friends" again whenever she feels like it. The only promise she will give is that she won't go out until 2 am anymore. Lucky me!

***I would love to be able to expose the affair to co-workers, but that's a very dangerous thing and could backlash. She would be humilated and since I would be the cause of the humilation***

bzzzzzzzzzzzzttt!!! Stop right here.

YOU are not the cause of her humilation in any way, shape or form.

HER CHOICE TO HAVE AN AFFAIR is the source of her humilation.

See the difference?

Don't ever take responsibility for her poor choices. She will try to blame you for all of it. DON'T fall for it and DON'T protect her from the consequences of her own actions.

***My wife refused to talk to Jennifer when she calls and is very upset with how much it will cost (at least that's her excuse). I'm on some thin rope here.***

I wouldn't worry about this right now. Just talk to Jennifer yourself and let her help you. One thing at a time.

***I am ready to make a better effort at saving the marriage, but I also need a little help from her side. Or I would feel much better if she did do something positive.***

Well, like they say -- wantin' ain't gettin'. As long as you insist you can't do anything without your WW's full cooperation, you won't get anywhere. We are trying to show you that there is much you can do on your own. Right now, you do not need your WW's permission or cooperation to start taking steps to save your marraige. That's what MB is about.

***My love bank was already drained reasonably dry from the affair and the year of [email]H@L![/email] that my life was during the affair.***

Join the club. We've all been there. Some of us are still there.

***Unfortunately I'm getting that gut feeling again that something is up. She's either had a run in with him at work, I don't know, but she's hiding something. I just wish she would get into some kind of counseling for herself. No matter what happens, she needs some help.***

From what you have posted here, she is almost certainly still going on with her affair. Just be prepared for that. Again, this is what they all do. The affair doesn't stop just because you know about it. Far from it.

***For now, I'm not going to snoop.***

Most of us would tell you to go right ahead so that you no longer have to wonder and worry and be stuck in the dark.

***I'd like to check out her work e-mail, but she's not very open to me even showing up at her job, let alone looking at her email.***

And this does not plainly tell you -- ?

Just hang in there. Let us know what Jennifer tells you.
Mulan

Let me clear up a few things.

"Worthatry seems to say that your actions can cause an A."

I didn't say that.

Have you guys read Surviving An Affair yet? If you have, read it again because you didn't understand it. If you had understood it, you would know what I was saying and what I wasn't saying.

Your contributions to the poor state of the marriage have to be corrected - whatever they were, no matter how small. The decision to conduct an affair was 100% your wife's decision. But guess what? She likely arrived at this decision because of unmet emotional needs in the marriage. You probably own some of this. You have to identify those things and fix them. This is TOTALLY different from "causing" your wife's affair. See the difference?

As for getting an admittance or an apology for the affair - you're dreaming, for now. This doesn't mean you won't eventually get it, but to hold that hostage before starting your Plan A is a loser. This is not rocket surgery. Putting this need for an admittance or aplolgy aside for awhile IS NOT approval of the affair. It's all about eliminating your contributions to the poor marital state and ceasing all love busters, demands, and disrespectful judgements.

Proceeding forward without the confession becomes important when you finally get to recovery. You're now where close to that yet.

So grove - please ask Jennifer about all of this and get her view. Ask her specifically if you should hound your wife to admit her affair and apologize to you as the central point of your Plan A. I GUARANTEE what the answer will be - a stern NO. Instead she'll tell you to state to your wife maybe only one time that you know she is/was conducting an affair and that you feel very disrespected and that in order to repair your marriage the affair has to stop.

I'll go back and see who recommended to you that you cannot save your marriage unless you first get a confession and an apology out of your wife and see what context it was delivered in. I do not see this approach ever working for on going affairs or before NC has been achieved.

Please, anybody else who thinks I've led these guys astray, please squawk.

WAT
---------------
Over the top.

Because I don't think you quite have it down yet, here is my canned description of Plan A:

The way I understand Plan A, it's based on two premises that must be accepted for “garden variety” affairs:

1. The BS cannot end the affair.

2. The affair developed, to some extent great or small, due to a poor marital environment which the BS, to some extent great or small, contributed to.

If a BS cannot accept these two statements as givens, they will not be able to implement Plan A.

With these facts established, there is only one constructive thing a BS can do to influence the course of an affair: change the affair-friendly marital environment by eliminating the BS contributions to it.

To this end, the BS must perform an introspective search for all the things they were doing or not doing that contributed to the WS's decision to have an affair - and then eliminate those negative contributions. These may include failure to meet emotional needs or disbursing too many love busters - but is usually some combination of both.

This DOES NOT mean that the BS "caused" the affair. This DOES NOT mean that the BS can or should try to change failings of the WS.

It simply means that the BS needs to change and improve the only thing they have control over - themselves - to eliminate love busters and begin meeting as many emotional needs of the WS as they can.

Central in this is stopping all disrespectful judgements, angry outbursts, and selfish demands. This is agonizingly difficult in the face of an affair. A BS has to counter the common knee jerk reactions of demanding the WS "straighten up" and delivering ultimatums and threats. Acting in this fashion simply reinforces the WS's rationalizations to conduct the affair in the first place - because the marriage "is over" or expendable and the spouse is unreasonable, therefore the affair is justifiable.

Invariably, this course leads BSs to feel like doormats and [censored] kissers. It also conjures up thoughts of enabling the affair by not resisting it. But the better logic to apply is that the BS isn't a doormat or enabling because they're doing the only things in their power to stop the affair - it's just counterintuitive to the initial reactions. This doesn't mean that boundaries shouldn't be set and protective measures shouldn't be taken.

Let me add that Plan A is all about the BS. You do not "Plan A" your WS. It is not intended to change ANYTHING but the BS.

I'll end this by offering that there is one additional thing a BS can do to alter the course of the affair - but I call it "destructive" rather than "constructive" (to separate it from the one and only constructive thing, discussed above). It's to expose the affair to the light of day. But this deserves its own discussion.

OK, one more thing. The affair is very, very likely to end DESPITE what the BS does or does not do. Until it ends, there is NO chance for reconciliation. Ideally, Plan A improvements can encourage the WS to end the affair sooner because the spouse's "causes" of it are eliminated. But regardless, following Plan A prepares the BS for a successful reconciliation whenever and for whatever reason the affair ends by jump starting the process - their share of pre-existing marital problems are already confronted.

WAT

Sorry WAT, wasn't really meaning to criticize, but sometimes the MB philosophy makes you, the BS, feel worthless and like a doormat.

It makes sense, but it is just very hard to follow through with sometimes.

Have you read, Shirly Glass' "Not Just Friends", or Peggy Vaughan's "The Monogomy Myt"? I spoke to Dr Vaughan, she was very nice and helpful. A big part of her plan is to get the NC and also frank discussions of the Details. Since affairs thrive on secrecy, allowing your WS to keep going and maintain the secrecy seems counter productive. That's my own take. I've read 7 or 8 different books on affairs. I found Dr Glass', Dr Vaughans and Dr Harley's to be the three best.

I'm trying now to do a decent plan a and with Jennifer's help hopefully I can succeed.

Sorry again WAT, I appreciate your comments. They have been very insightful and helpful.