grove, I agree with you. It is hard to be a doormat. I also agree that allowing the truth to be withheld can not be productive. I always hear that good marriages are built on truth and communication. When did that change? I do not know what your exact situation was or what emotional needs that you might not have met for your wife. I know that I never physically abused my wife, I did not verbally abuse her, I never laid a hand on another woman and she had virtually everything that she said she wanted. It was just that after eight years of marriage, she started playing every game possible to avoid sex and I reacted to it negatively. Then her relationship started. I am almost positive that it was not going on at the time she started the little games. If she is not going to talk about what happened then how do I know her position. What if I spend another year in the dark trying to figure out what of her emotional needs were not met and it turns out that her emotional need was just to date other people and it will continue to be a primary emotional need? Sounds kind of like grabbing the hot eye on the stove over and over again. What are your thoughts?

Yes, I've read all those.

The two best out there for dealing with continuing affairs, in my opinion, are Harley's "Surviving An Affair" and Frank Pittman's "Private Lies."

If you're intending to continue to participate on this forum and attempt to save your marriage, you have to fully absorb SAA. Because perhaps you haven't, you're having trouble with what we're saying about Plan A.

Most other books about infidelity start off with an assumption that the affair is over. You're not there yet. This could be why you think my advice has been out of sync. There are two completely different approaches to handling ongoing affairs and ones that have ended.

So............

Your take is right on. I've said nothing to contradict this. What you perhaps don't understand is that you have virtually no ability to make no contact happen. You cannot end the affair. Have you read my quick start guidelines? You'll see plenty of emphasis on exposure.

"A big part of her plan is to get the NC...."

Absolutely! But the only why for the BS to influence this is to help the affairee decide on his/her own to end the affair. You don't do this by demanding it. You do this by removing any "justification" the BS had to conduct the affair blamed on you. This is Plan A. In parallel you expose the affair to remove the secrecy.

"....and also frank discussions of the Details."

This comes later - after NC is established.

Thanks WAT, I thought I had a better understanding of the plan A, but once my wife refused to quit her job, it kind of threw me for a loop. I've scheduled a call with Jennifer for next week, I'm sure that will help. My wife still is refusing to participate.

My wife and I have been listening to "His Needs, Her Needs" when we're together in the car. I don't want to make it sound like she is totally not working on the marriage. She willing to listen, she just hasn't implemented anything yet.

I just bought "Private Lies" and I've been thinking about going back to SAA and rereading Plan A and B.

I've noticed some improvement the last two days, mostly because I am working harder at not bringing up the affair and other marital issues. I'm just trying to have a couple nice days. I'm still thinking about it, but I figure we could both use a little break.

Her mom gave her the name of a psychologist to see. That's good, unless the pyschologist is anti-marriage, than it could be bad. Either way, my wife needs some professional help. She's not dealing with her feelings, I'm glad she's finally decided to go see someone. The fact she's finally admitting that she may have some problems is awesome!

Good, grove. You can only lure her back, you cannot make her come back.


Of course she is. This is normal. Stop any effort to make her participate.

WAT

Bob,

It sounds like you and I are in a very similar place and probably have similar personalities. I honestly want to get over this, but there is a side of me that says she crossed the only line I ever said was unforgivable. I still love her and I understand why she is having trouble admitting everything she did. She's ashamed, embarrassed and most likely believes that I will leave is she tells me the whole truth. I can't promise that I won't, but I think I would be in a better place than I am right now. It sucks to think your wife and the person you thought was your best friend would lie and betray you so deeply, only to keep lying after you find out and confront them.

I've been waiting for my wife to come to me and say I need to tell you everything. It scares the H out of me, but at least then I would know the person I fell in love with is back.

There seems to be a consensus that my wife's affair is probably still going on in some form or another. How do you know. Obviously they're not calling each other anymore via cell phones and home phones, the few times I dropped in unannounced at her work, it seemed ok. (there was one time he was walking down the hall as I arrived a gave me a dirty/wierd look, but what was he supposed to do?).

My wife swears she would never cheat on me again, she'd divorce me before she'd do something like that again. She's still not completely committed to what it takes to fix this mess, but she does call daily to "check in" and has reported the few times she's seen him during the work day.

I think most of my wife's wierd behavior revolves around the stress of guilt and the fact she's still keeping much of the details to herself. I could be wrong, and I'm not readly to be shocked back into a state of depression if she is still having the affair, but I get the feeling that she is not having a romantic relationship with this guy anymore, but I also don't think she has been completely honest about her contact with him since d-day.

So again, any advice as to whether I should try and confirm that it is still going on, or just keep plodding along and see where this leads.

Do it to me once, shame on you, do on me again, shame on me.

How do we know?

She's been seen on the Mothership. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Actually, until a NC letter is written - and even still in a lot of those cases - the emotional link has not been severed. She may in fact have shut the door on the affair, or is allowing it to slowly shut, but she hasn't nailed it shut. Until you hear that hammer pounding, the affair is still lurking.

Take no action (other than continuing to work on your improvements and avoiding LBs) until you discuss all this with Jennifer.

WAT

grove, I know that we are in the same situation and I am pretty sure that we are the same personality type. I think that we may have a little too much gentleman in our system for our own good sometimes. It is almost scary that you mentioned your wife "crossing the line". I know that early in our marriage my wife and I had fights about each of us maybe looking in the wrong direction or talking to someone for too long. It almost seems funny now. However, I told her that infidelity was the only thing that I could not forgive and to please leave me before starting up with someone else and I would do her the same courtesy. I think that my wife also thinks that I will definitely leave her if she confesses the PA. I might but I do not know. If the OM ended the relationship over her objections then I probably would. As to all other scenarios, I would have to play it by ear. I mentioned something that happened earlier this week in another thread. I was sitting on the back porch having a drink and thinking. My wife walks out and starts talking about things we need to do with the house when the mortgage is paid off(nine years) and renovations that she would like to perform. I could not believe it so I just stared at her. We sleep in separate bedrooms, we have not touched each other in nine months, she quit MC and refuses to talk about the relationship. Then yesterday, I am sitting out back and she comes out to inform me that a "Tammy" called and she wants to know who Tammy is. I told her that I do not know a Tammy and I do not even have a client named Tammy. She said that it sounded very fishy to her. I checked the caller ID and there was only one unaccounted for call. It was from an unknown caller and these are always telemarketers. I told that that if she was concerned about my fidelity that we could still go take the polygraph test this week. She snapped back that I was not going to turn this back on her and stormed out. What a priceless response!! I do know that she is hiding something big that she cannot reveal. It is obvious that she no other options but to sit quietly and hope that over time I will forget about this and not bring it up anymore. She is working on her tenth month of stonewall silence. It is obvious that she has no other options. I know my personality and I will not get other this until the bright light of day shines on the whole situation, I get a heartfelt apology, I feel that she really loves me, that she is committed to the marriage and that I will not have to deal with infidelity again. I will get this in August or I am gone. I deserve nothing less than this as a human being and I will accept nothing less. I hope that you are able to work out a gameplan that matches your situation and that you can live with.

No Bob, I disagree that you have too much "gentleman" in you.

You have too much pride.
You're not gonna get anywhere until you decide.

Odds are that it was a PA. Very good odds.

And what difference does it make if it wasn't?

Well, let me answer that one for you this way: if it was ONLY PA and not EA, you'd be FAR better off having a chance to recover your marriage - if you could get over your pride which is currently your biggest obstacle.

So I suggest you decide that your marriage is more important than your pride and tell your wife that you're not leaving her no matter what happened with OM. The affair was just a symptom of the REAL disease and you're ready to get cured.

In time you will learn the whole story. The way to open that door is not to try to kick it down, but to allow a drop of oil to soak in to the hinges.

WAT

That's a long time, I don't think I will be able to hang in that long.

I did get multiple heartfelt apologies, especially the first month after d-day. After about a month, she got very distant, I thought something might be up, so I had the om's phone records checked. sure enough I found out he was calling my wife's best friend (who he supposedly never met). She came up with a lame excuse, but I do think it might have freaked the guy out that I was able to get his phone records.

I called him also, but he never returned my call. I guess he just likes talking to women.

I know my wife is lying about her affair, but I'm just not sure how much. She's told me some details, so I hate to make it sound like she's been a complete jerk. If she had sex, I can't say for sure I'd leave, since I already suspect that she did, but I would have to take another look at what I can live with. Since I'm asking for the truth, I should at least give it chance if she tells me.

I just don't like that we can't seem to deal with this mess as long as she's still being secretive. I realize this is normal, but it doesn't mean I have to like it. I decided to give this a little more time.

Right now I'm sitting here wondering if I should leave work early and see if she is meeting him in her classroom or walking out to her car with him. I'm not going to, but it is very tempting. This sucks and it's just not fair, but here I am!!

If you need to talk to someone, let me know. I'm all ears.

Grove-

Bluntly, I don't see anything wrong with VERIFYING that she's telling you the truth, by doing exactly what you suggested...show up and see what's going on. If she has an issue with that, simply let her know that in reality, things like that are the only way she can re-build your trust in her after what she's done...it's takes a demonstration of changed behavior over a period of time...and you have to have some way to SEE that her behavior has changed. Just telling you doesn't cut it...it doesn't truly mean anything yet, because that trust hasn't been re-built.

grove, I have had a very liberating weekend. I have been caught up in trying to keep an eye on my WW. However, I have just realized that I do not have to waste my life doing this. I am not going to close my eyes and I am going to keep watch but I am not going to let it alter my life. My WW informed me that she was going to her cousin's for the weekend. This is the same cousin who allowed my WW and the OM to stay at her house on the date that she got caught. Ordinarily this would have put me through the roof. However, I thought about it and rationalized it. She is going to have to put up or I am gone in three months. If she does anything then it will come out in the wash. I cannot prevent her from doing what she is going to do so why tear myself up about it. If she would cheat now after being caught, then she will cheat the rest of her life and she will be making my decision easier. With this in mind, I went to a local casino on Friday night. I played blackjack, had a couple of drinks and a nice meal and talked to some interesting people. On Saturday, I went to the Star Wars movie. I feel that I am becoming myself again now that I have a plan that I feel comfortable with and intend to stick to. It helps to realize that life will go on no matter what happens and that I had one hell of a good life before I even knew that the WW was even on this planet. I hope you are getting some peace of mind this weekend.

bump