These boards have made me laugh, smile, cry, hope, despair and tonight, just wonder ...

What is the point of trying to reason/argue with a WS in the middle of an Affair. When I think of the tears I cried, the letters I wrote, the emails I sent and the one-sided conversations I now think "what a waste of time". He was so fogged up and 'in love' I didn't stand a chance. Talk about words falling on deaf ears. It's only now, more than one year past Dday, that he really listens to what I say and realises I actually talk a lot of sense. I think my words were like gobbledigook to him before.

I am so for the 180 approach. Let them go and 'have their fun' and TRY to make them believe you don't care. You can live without them. Remove their choices - all this to-ing and fro-ing is so unhealthy so make the choice for them. Say what you've got to say, let them know you mean it and then SHUT UP. It is Friday now. It took me 5 days to realise that my WH talked more to me last weekend than he did for a whole year and he initiated 90% of the conversation. This isn't a turning point in our relationship but I would call it progress. tt

Amen. Trying to reason with a fogged out WS is about as effective as reasoning with a drunk. Trying to reason with someone who uses no reason is an exercise in futility. They respond to ACTION, not reason.

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I tend to agree in lots of instances. I think the only ones who should do the Plan A route first are the ones who were horribly neglectful or hurtful spouses.

For all the rest, I have to agree with you. Plan A is very destructive to the BS if they are not very strong and disciplined I think.

Say you piece as kindly as possible then bid them adieu.

I would say that to a degree, you're right. You can't 'reason' with a WS...they just aren't capable of that during any kind of A.

You CAN set clear boundaries and consequences. You can show them clearly the consequences of their choices. You can't make them see those if they refuse to do so, but you can lay them out there for them.

That's what was the 'beginning of the end' for my wife's EA. I calmly and clearly spelled out for her all of the consequences that would happen if she chose to fly off and live with her OM. I would NEVER have been there for her in any fashion again. I wouldn't have shared any of the things that are kids were going to go through with her. It would boil down to a choice between which of us the kids wanted to have present for which event, because in no way was I going to be able to act in any kind of pleasant way if I were forced to share something with her and her OM. I made it clear that if I EVER met the OM, it would end VERY badly. I made it clear to her that if she escalated her EA to a PA, it would be a death blow not only to our marriage, but to our friendship as well. It was a 'line in the sand', and I made it VERY clear what would happen if she crossed that line.

It made her stop and start to think for the first time in ages. It made her unsure of her choice at that point...and it just so happened that OM called while she was standing there thinking about all of this...and HE could tell that she was wavering. HE told her not to come unless she knew what she wanted...and that spelled the end of the whole thing. Not at that moment, it took a while longer for it to finally die, but it was the 'beginning of the end'.

So, you're right in a way. Don't try to reason with a WS. It's pointless. But if you can successfully make them see what the consequences of their choices will be, and if you can clearly show them that you MEAN it, and will hold by your boundaries, it can make a difference in the outcome.

BTW, our d-day was 5/11/04...we just passed the year mark. And our M is better now than it has been in years. I'm still recovering from things, but WE are doing very well.

TT...I agree with you that sometimes I too wonder...why am I doing this...why am I wasting my time. I could be having fun. But at the same time I am paralyzed with fear. NOt sure why. I know without a doubt that I will be OK. I just keep thinking that I have spent so much energy already on this marriage, I have a comfort level with this man. I will miss him as a friend more than anything. I will miss have a warm pair of arms around me....yet at this very moment in time all of the has disappeared already.

I am just not sure I can do the 180 while still married because it goes against everything I believe about the vows of marriage. I shouldn't just let him go have his fun while I remain faithful. It is a sin against my soul not only for him, but for me to allow it to happen. If I could move away for 6-12 months after filing for a divorce and not have any contact with him I think I could move on. But NC while we are still married (Plan B) so he can do what he wants just seems so wrong.

Did you do a Plan B? How did you 180? Where you ever seperated? Tell me more. Was it a EA? PA? How long?

Homer, he is doing "what he wants" now because there is nothing to stop him. You have no boundaries and he can do what he chooses.

There is nothing "wrong" with Plan B. There is something very wrong with adultery, abandonment and staying in Plan A so long that it cements bad behaviors that destroy your marriage. There is something "wrong" with having no boundaries.

Staying in Plan A too long can have very destructive consequences because it simply reinforces bad behaviors and erodes any love and respect that is left in the marriage.

Plan B is a plan designed to take back the reign of control from a lost person and give that lost person the much needed motivation to change. To sit by and do nothing is not helpful to your marriage nor does it help your lost H find his way back.

While there are no guarantees that your husband will come back from alienland, at the very least it gives the BS a much needed break from the sickness and insanity that the WS injects into the marriage. The result will be a clear thinking BS who is no longer so emotionally battered that she can make sound, rational decisions and live with a modicum of peace.

So, no, Plan B is not "wrong;" it is a healthy, restorative plan that has the capacity to restore marriages and the sanity of the BS.

TT,

Only have a second. Someone runs around with a sig line that says "Trying to be a lighthouse, feel like an outhouse." Binder? Can't remember.

THAT'S the point. A woman of fine and noble character (YOU!) let's that SHINE. Even if it falls on deaf ears. THAT is plan A. It says "Hey, WS, there is an anchor here, a rock. It always WAS here. You just have to hook in and pull yourself back."

Even IF it falls on deaf ears. It's funny, the credit for the success of the effort goes to BOTH. For it takes both to repair the M and win. But the NOBILITY of the effort, well that falls on the BS alone.

And being that rock is how you earn that nobility. That's the point.

But as humans, we all have our limits. And Plan B is our protective barrier when our boundaries are stretched too thin.

NCWalker - who WILL make it to your side of the world one day.

***But NC while we are still married (Plan B) so he can do what he wants just seems so wrong.***

No one does Plan B so their WS "can do what they want."

They do Plan B to end the emotional abuse that an active WS is heaping upon them.

It's not for the WS.

It's for YOU.

You don't have the power to stop the affair, but you do have the power to remove yourself from a cruel, sordid and abusive situation.

If you choose not to exercise this power, you are a willing participant in that same cruel, sordid and abusive situation.

You said it yourself: "LET GO.....OR GET DRAGGED"
Mulan

What is the point of trying to reason/argue with a WS in the middle of an Affair. When I think of the tears I cried, the letters I wrote, the emails I sent and the one-sided conversations I now think "what a waste of time". He was so fogged up and 'in love' I didn't stand a chance
All of this is exactly why you learn MB principles an apply Plan A.
You don't argue or try to convince them of anything.

I am so for the 180 approach. Let them go and 'have their fun' and TRY to make them believe you don't care.
This is not the 180 & the 180 has nothing to do with trying to make them believe you don't care.
The 180 is "if you are doing something now and getting a negative (or no) response, then do the opposite." MWD

Chris - the reason I put 'have their fun' in inverted commas was because I believe he is now having anything but fun. He has complicated an already complex situation (we are expats in Hong Kong and he has kidney failure ... I could go on). He pressed a self-destruct button and nothing was going to stand in his way. If two people don't pull together after Dday, then you get what I see everyday here; a viscious circle of NC, recovery, renewed contact, despair. It really sucks.

My actions echoed a lot of the approach to the 180 before I even knew it existed. He saw me as an obstruction to his personal happiness and the kids were nothing but trouble to him. Each relationship is different - this is just my experience. tt

TT, all I can say is "here here".

not only do they not LISTEN, I think all that talking is actually harmful. The only regret I have throughout all of this is that I did not shut up more.

I know you don't like to call it progress so I'll call it that for you. Glad your husband started connecting with you!

TT,

I can see where your post came from and where it is going. I also felt the same way and eventually just gave up the Plan A and went to Plan B. It was totally awesome. I learned so much about myself and my life at that time. I wouldn't trade my 3-4 months of solitude for anything now. I talked and wrote and was nice and probably even kissed him right after she kissed him. And it did nothing to penetrate their "love". I am sure you know what I mean. I was nobody at that time. Very hard to forgive and get over to this day honestly.

Exactly what is an expat? Just wondering if you are originally from HK or just living there I guess. Sounds interesting.

HINY

HINY - expat {maybe it's a British word} is short for expatriate. Just means a person from one country taking up residence in another. I'm english but live & work in Hong Kong. People often think it is exotic but really just the same old routine as I'd have back home, except the weather is hotter!

I'm not really in Plan B because WH comes over every Sunday and spends time with the girls. The alternative is he takes them to his place. As that involves OW, no thank you. Part of the mess he has made is that I am in HK as his dependant, as are the girls. If we divorce (am honestly not thinking about that yet) I'd have to leave HK but have lived here for 14 years and it my daughters' home. As for his health, what a mess is all I can say at the moment.

I really have been 'nothing' to him. Xmas hit him hard but apart from that he hasn't really shown the care and concern I would have expected as regards his daughters. If ever a person needed some counselling, it is him. But he thinks he's unique and nobody could possibly understand his situation. But still, he is talking a little these days ...

Aislinn, great to see you around. Things with me could be better, could be worse. He is definitely talking a bit more but I'm pissed off with him tonight. He left without proper goodbyes. (He has never kissed the girls since he left). He has such a problem showing affection - maybe he feels unworthy. I shower them with kisses and cuddles to make up for it but I just don't understand the man. TT

JustCallMeHomer - I will fill you in on my situation but it's 10.30pm and I feel so tired I'm off to bed. I'll write my novel tomorrow for you!! Bet you can't wait! TT