Dear Stid,

I hear the compassion in your words that must be coming from your heart. The shock of seeing your husband's back and not instantly recognizing him, worse, seeing a tired old man, is really stunning. Are you seeing him within the context of his own consequences? Or are you seeing him for himself, what he has become, and might have become, even two years ago?

Were you okay with having dinner and then lunch with your daughters and him, together? Do you feel there's something wrong with this and you're doing it for your daughters' sakes? I'm sorry, but I can't get a clear picture of your boundaries and plans.

I do know that your grieving, looking to God and his gifts, being honest with yourself about your pain, forgiveness--are all demonstrating great self-care. You were honest with yourself in realizing that your husband wants both, too. Tough but necessary realization.

Sounds like you are focusing on yourself and not struggling as much with focusing on him. I guess that's why I wanted to know if you had wanted to do the dinner and lunch...boundaries. My recent realization was that I could create and maintain myself, but if I didn't focus on what takes me down, like saying yes when I need to say no, then I tend to unravel...until I re-ravel it all over again.

Or did you not unravel, gathered into these family get-togethers, but only felt compassion and forgiveness? Would this last if he looked better and better each time everyone got together? How compassionate would you feel if he began to seemingly thrive? I'm projecting here--if my husband had any visible sign that his A took a toll on him, as it surely has on me, then I would let go so much. He looks just as good as before. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Two more books to recommend: Gottman's "The Seven Principles of Marriage"...we are only on the first Principle, but I like it already. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Also, "The Verbally Abusive Relationship"--I was a verbal abuser (probably emotional abuser, too, but I don't know what that means--if you could explain that, I'd be really grateful). Come to find out, withholding, forgetting, denial and countering are all forms of verbal abuse, so both of us carry these incidents as an expected norm. There's a thread here on this book that I need to find and study.

LA

Hi,
I'm still thinking about what you wrote...the time together was not fun, and I won't be repeating it any time in the near future... I wanted H to know we could be together and be kinda nice. There was just nothing else there. I'm thinking...

Today, very gently someone illustrated to me that God can forgive my H of anything and can change my H. However, God has to stay true to who He is. So, when my H refuses to chose God then that is where it stays until my H makes the choice to follow... In other words, God wants my H to change but He never forces anyone to follow Him... In the meantime...prayer.

Hi LA
I've had two letters from my H.
He tells me he will be waiting for me when I am ready to come back to him. Made it sound like I left...as far as I know he was still seeing OW last week. THis is painful. I'm wondering which of our children he will show this letter to therefore proving he told me he wants me back. My emotions toward him at this minute are not like or love--just anger and resentment. Twisted twisted twisted. A full unsigned typed page of jabs veiled as his goodness. YUCK.
The second letter, also unsigned, was a list of good times we had 25 years ago. At the end he asks permission to put his wedding band back on...I am so insulted. So hurt and now so angry with his twistedness. I am not thinking right. He, he, he, he, he, he. He did put his name on the address label.
I really thot I'd processed beyond all the accuasations, apparently not. So, if you have any thots, this hurting heart would like a clearer picture of what he is doing. I feel emotionally beat up.

Hi

I talked with H and tonight we went out for desert (I asked him). He didn't intend to be hurtful. I have to be cautious but somehow, I believe him. I want to believe him. I need to believe him.
If I can find my way to trust him again...that would be a miracle. Now, I fear what might be the secondary gains for him being nice to me. God knows, he cannot fool God.
I love this man.

LA, I packed up my books because I was so frustrated and sure nothing was working. This is from what I remember...emotional abuse wears away at the person, they aren't allowed to make choices and fear making them because of the repercussions of a choice different from the abusers. The idea behind emotional abuse is controlling the other person. Control is number one and nothing else matters. It destroys the other persons self esteem so much that they begin to think they think like the person doing the emotional abuse but in there heart they know something is not right. It is easier to go along then fight it and face the repercussions...Certainly wordy but the jest of the idea. Kinda a brainwashing type thing.
Messes with what is most important to you deep inside.

I am going to try to spend more time in the word and let God speak to my heart...He is trustworthy. I get so noisy and forget to be still and listen to God.

You have inspired me to keep on keeping on...I need to do this. I want to be a woman after God's own heart. God bless you and thanks so much for praying.

Hi,
I've been wrestling with myself on what to say here. I'm going to stop my self-struggle and just answer. That's my disclaimer and I'm sticking to it.

I remember you said you had laid out to your WH what he had to do to begin recovery with you--stop seeing OW (appears to me that you aren't buying his helpless excuse and know he's cake-eating here) even it you two have to file a for a restraining order; choose a counselor for IC and begin MC again with you? You haven't continued the D process and are working very hard on looking at yourself, your marriage and praying for clarity, forgiveness and recovery. Have I got this right?

In his letter, your WH looped it around to inviting you to come back to him, correct? Do you take this to be the foggy, manipulative, face-saving viewpoint, or do you in your heart feel that you have been unclear when you shared your path to recovery with your WH? I believe you were very clear, but that is an assumption on my part.

I strongly recommend doing something backwards here, only because it worked for me. Find a good MC with God-centered, MB beliefs and ask your WH to begin weekly sessions with you. I did this when my H said he was stuck and couldn't decide between me and OW because his feelings for both of us were the same. At our first session, the counselor asked us our goals...mine, to save the marriage; my H's was to decide what he should do--divorce or rebuild. In the first session, the counselor told my H directly to stop seeing OW because he had to make the decision of his life without undue influence. My H "didn't hear him say that" and took OW bowling. One week later, the afternoon after our 2nd session, he called and broke up with OW. Within two months, he had recommitted to the marriage, and within three months, had figured out that his two-month relationship with OW was a fantasy and the reality was our 18+ years together. I don't believe my H would have chosen to recommit or that A's are fantasies except for this authoritative, direct voice in his life--the counselor. He heard no one else's advice. He put the responsibility and trust immediately into his hands and that helped him to relieve himself of turmoil, confusion and guilt while he worked it out for himself. He took back the responsibility earlier this year, in his healthier state. That's the way I see it.

My H is not in your WH's leadership, outgoing personality role; but I'm intuiting that they are alike in their secret belief that they are better than average, smarter, etc., than others, even though your WH is within a religious vocation and mine is not. I resented that it took a strong, male voice to get through the fog to my H, but I'm glad of the results.

I believe your WH means his gratitude and his love--he tries to communicate, and letters are probably important to him. What caused you pain about him flipflopping reality around? You said that in your first reply and again in the second...that he didn't intend to be hurtful. Do you take it as lying? Is it the pain of the lies, loss of trust, belief in your marriage that is hurting you?

And it sounds like you are afraid of your grown children not knowing who to believe...that you will be in a battle of perceptions because of his deceit. And this is also causing you pain. His list of all the good times felt like what? Mockery? The wedding ring request, more twisting of truth? Is this accurate? If he had worded everything into I statements, stating that he wanted to return to the marriage (and felt that then he'd be safe from OW just showing up...doubtful, but okay), that he wanted his ring on his finger and his world back because he feared losing any chance at future good times with you--would you have hurt this way?

Why did you ask him out for dessert if you don't believe anything he says? I'm not putting you down--I paid for dinners out to "date" my H while he was still seeing OW...I was desperate for connection, to make amends, to grasp at any hairs of our relationship still attached to his clothing. But I was the one who had an A first...you don't have this dimension in your life. You have been a faithful spouse who has resented your H for a long time. Why the dessert date? The 15hrs aren't for during the A, the way I understand it. Any contact constitutes an ongoing A because there's no distance being created, no honesty recaptured without it.

I ask a lot of questions of you, and I do appreciate your answer to the emotional abuse question. So I'll ask if you completed your resentment timeline, and if you did, would share what you felt while writing it, then reviewing it? That's the critical part. Not just the writing.

I believe you detest yourself for the emotional ups and downs...learning forgiveness and then bottoming out on despair, anger, helplessness. Please don't. I'm not judging you, nor are your children. Please stay honest with yourself and your motivations for what you do and say; for what you're asking from your WH is this, also. But remember, he had to lie to himself for a very long time to enable the A to happen and continue, and even into "now" as he verges on facing the devastation he has caused. I still can't require honesty or openness of my H. That's a hard road, but the only one I'm choosing for now.

Could that be why you fear his words are for secondary gains? You cannot trust him or believe him honest right now. Lower your expectations to have what you thought you had before--that he tell you truth, act accordingly. This isn't unworkable. You won't be able to determine your actions by his feelings for awhile. God does work in mysterious ways.

If you want to continue to try to connect with your WH, like dessert, a walk or something, then try doing just active listening. Repeat back what his words, so you both hear them again. Do not try to trust or allow yourself that delusion. Trust him to be who he is, right now. And be great to yourself by stating your reality, separate from his, and limiting yourself to being direct and honest.

You are already a woman after God's own heart...he loved you before you were born. Seems like you know this and then don't. Me, too. I returned all my books to the library, too, in a fit of defeat, but I'm still here, on MB, and working it through the best I know how. So are you, as you said. We've been abandoned in our lives and cannot afford to believe we will abandon ourselves.

One last question...does this last year and half bring to mind other times in your life of crisis? Is it like reliving something that happened, even more than once, before?

I realized a few months into this that my H's leaving was reminding me of my mother dying when I was 8. I think most of what I felt, the surges and drops, were that of my 8-year-old self, going through an adult crisis. Just a thought.

LA

Hi
I am being stretched--again. I had to forgive my H for not being ready to reconcile. He is saying it but not ready to do it. It leaves me teary today. I had to ask God to give me strength to trust my H to Him and be willing to wait for His time. This is so hard since I wanted it yesterday. At least I think I want it. Being true to myself is a new concept for me. I was always trying to be what everyone wanted and never figured out me. Remember in Run Away Bride where she eats all those eggs because she doesn't even know what it is she likes? Well, that is me. What do I like? Who knows, whatever everyone else likes worked for me. Now I have to find out who I am, even what I like to eat...besides chocolate. That is so sad that I left me behind so many years ago. Can be a fun adventure...maybe a good smorgasboard to help pick a few new things to try!!!

I'll go back to the other questions later. I just wanted to share my journey of the last two days...
S

Hi
I find that you are very perceptive.
H is passive aggressive like you thot. He agreed and acted like he wanted to go to church with me, then he went out of state for the weekend, no phone call, no nothing. I found out only because I called to let our son know that I sent a package to grandchild. He remains a deceitful H. He has not changed and it is still all about H. Why do I hope that will change? It is his core value H. I don't know how to truly forgive this. It hurts so very much.

H has had a previous affair and I never asked the details. H "met God" and cleaned up his act. At least tucked it under the rug. He deserted me even then. Life with taking him back only means he will repeat it again. (that is what my gut tells me...) He deserted me several times during the marriage and always came back, so maybe he thot it was just a repeat of the same old, same old.

Maybe my love for him is an illusion. Perhaps that is the deep trouble here. It never really existed. I am hoping on a shadow of a thot.
I did the resentment time line. I've been thinking about it today. Maybe, since it is now forgiven, I need to move on to follow what God's plan and purpose is for me. I have a lot to think about. This marriage doesn't exist. This is so sorrowful and defeating. God knows my heart. He knows His plan. I need to hang on for dear life and move forward and watch God work. I am far to tired to do much else.
s

Dearest Stid,

I've been praying for you, thinking about you, and the last two posts. I read that your plan was to wait upon the Lord to work within WH's heart, for his actions to match his words . Was that your plan? You were praying for strength to endure the wait? To me, it sounds like to pray for that, you would have to relinquish all of your judgments of WH and desires for yourself. Then you would not feel stretched, torn, impatient or rejected. I know how difficult, nearly impossible it is to trust in the Lord and not to lean on my own understanding, especially when I couldn't trust my H or myself.

"Being true to myself is a new concept for me. I was always trying to be what everyone wanted and never figured out me. Remember in Run Away Bride where she eats all those eggs because she doesn't even know what it is she likes? Well, that is me. What do I like? Who knows, whatever everyone else likes worked for me. Now I have to find out who I am, even what I like to eat...besides chocolate. That is so sad that I left me behind so many years ago. Can be a fun adventure...maybe a good smorgasboard to help pick a few new things to try!!"

Yes, you again resonate with me. I felt great shame and anger at leaving myself behind. Now I feel great tenderness and care for finding me again. I am making amends to myself. What I did at first, though, was jump from reclaiming myself (truly unknown) into boundaries and self-protection, without that essential part of asking myself for forgiveness, finding that most of my resentments (all, really) sprang from this and not my WH. My own actions, choices, brought me to dig the resentment trench in my marriage. He didn't do it. I did. He couldn't. Resentment is an ingrown nail. It was what grew when I didn't. When I looked, expected, then demanded that my WH provide the cure, which was finding my own self.

You say "I did the resentment time line. I've been thinking about it today. Maybe, since it is now forgiven, I need to move on to follow what God's plan and purpose is for me."

I'm not clear on what "it is now forgiven" means. What is His will for you? "I have a lot to think about. This marriage doesn't exist. This is so sorrowful and defeating. God knows my heart. He knows His plan. I need to hang on for dear life and move forward and watch God work. I am far to tired to do much else."

How can you know without separating your WH's actions from your own? I believe for me to truly to say, "Thy will be done," then I must let go and let God. Anything else is holding my right hand open to Him, and hiding my left behind my back. I've done that, still catch myself doing that.

You say this is his pattern...the going and coming back. The pattern of desertion, abandonment and then retrieval? Did this make you feel powerful, someone he couldn't get away from, always ended up needing? Or did it give you a lift to be rejected, since you were rejecting yourself? I was of the second scenario. I had an inner belief, as big as knowing God exists, that I was defective and would be rejected, and just as certain, that I would fail at everything. I had too much potential and not enough brains. Apparently, I wanted to be right rather than accepted; proved clairvoyant more than I wanted to succeed. To succeed and be accepted as just a human being, well, that was far too scary. Changing my inner beliefs is the most successful thing I've ever done. I may be rejected in my marriage, but I will remain present for my self. That's the best way I honor my H now. It's how I protect him. When I forget me, I disrespect him.

My heart knows your sorrow for him saying he would go to church with you and not doing so, without a word. Often, I would be more courteous to acquaintances than to my H. I'm looking for the passive-aggressive in myself now. When I hurt over his agreeing then acting out, the hurt comes from within myself because I broke a promise to myself, not him to me. I promised myself not to believe what he says and then I do. That's where the pain comes from. Practicing the seeing is believing is more helpful, but my inner belief is difficult to redefine. People break promises. People make promises they have no intention of keeping because they want the instant gratification of feeling good and then resent that they were "made" to make a promise in the first place. My H says the resentment helps to deflect the pain of the consequences, knowing he didn't do what he had agreed to do.

If you promised yourself to let go and let God, then you pull it back, you might be feeling the weight of both his rejection of you and of your self. I don't want to tell you how to stop your feelings because I think you don't share your feelings enough. The way I was had four emotions--anger showed as pain, gratitude showed as love, fear showed as shame, and blame was something I steeped in. I'm still working on all those. Name yours. Own them. Share them. Turn your eyes away from what you've turned over to God. He made you an emotional, physical, spiritual and mental being. Know His creation. It takes a lifetime. Be patient with yourself. He is.

Hard to say to you, when I have walked and am walking that path still sometimes. Within me, I know I'm obsessive. That has been the way I deflect my mind from my self. I believe I'm more horrible to look at than my H at his most wayward. I have to change that belief. I'm not. Never was.

How many emotions do you have, Stid? Some say we have 150 of them. Sounds right to me, knowing God's love of complexity and abundance for us. I hear you know sorrow, inadequacy, love (which now you question)...what else? You feel emotional fatigue, and I'm sure physical. Your mind runs on legs long worn out; paid for by the weariness of your heart. You're doing this to yourself. You said to me that you needed to be still and know that He is God. This is the cure to obsession.

I worshipped my own H, Stid. I'm terribly ashamed and fearful of that, for offending God. I made H into a fantasy man, much the same way H uses addictions to distract himself. I played God, also, in this creation--no different than creating graven images. I believed he was my answer to my dis-ease, and it was devastating when he finally refused to help keep up the pretense with me. When he said he was human, incapable of being what I needed most (being everything to fill my void), then I tried to force him into really being that fantasy by having an affair. That's why worshipping idols don't work. It's all a fantasy. Only God is real.

I don't have your years of experience in the church, in leadership, understanding, study and conviction. I am sharing just my precious beliefs. When I stopped my judgments of my H, I saw me judging myself too harshly. When I stopped my compulsion to just get him to keep promises, I stopped breaking them to my self. You can do this, Stid. I know you can. I'm only half-way from nowhere, but it's far more enjoyable, reasonable--sane. Learn to love your self and you'll stop doubting your love for your H. But you have to honestly face your self to do this.

When did you leave yourself behind? How old? If you think it was when you married, go back further. If you think it was when you left home, go back further. Most of the time these patterns of giver/martyr and external living come from childhood. We're taught this is the way to be safe--to be loved and cherished and not hurt. To please is all and to be is not enough.

{{{{{{Stidnumh}}}}}}
LA

Hi LA,
You touch my heart. I have been reading and re-reading this. I am again making some little changes in me. Tonight I can hear the fountain as I sit here typing. It is a peaceful and soothing.
Interactions with my H have been so futile. He invites me to come home. No counseling for us, I just need to come home to him. He quit his job...
I am resting in the Lord on this whole senario. Good thing God is in control of everything. Maybe just holding to that thot I can actually rest in the Lord and enjoy His plan for my life. I am amazed that God doesn't need me to do for Him. He really wants me to rest and trust. You've been sending that messaage and it finally has trickled into my thots. I knew I was to be still and KNOW that He is God...the rest and trust part...goes full circle.
May God bless you in your marriage! Thanks for the directions in walking this journey...it helps, LOTS.
S
I needed the hug even.

Hi,
Memory of being deserted in the past...the death of his mom...he ignored me and didn't include me in some of the precious moments at the end of her life. He excluded me once again. We had a arguement that day, I was to fend for myself and the kids (then young) on a snowy icy day. He didn't want me around...

I find myself remembering these minutes, since he just moved out of state today. I am so empty.

We never could agree on counseling. I find it a must and he finds it a must not. Same issue, same answer.

I feel like we are done. I am sick of trying and feeling like I am not trying at all. What a pity party I'm having today. I'm empty and alone.

I get to go to a Bible study tonight so that will help.
I guess I am just telling this so I keep my mouth shut tonight.
How are things going for you?
S