I am not suggesting abandoning MIL...but you shoud perhaps question out loud to hubby what his long term plans to have someone do the tasks that you currently do for her...
for surely he isn't thinking that YOU are going to be just there forever...without a husband...doing wifely tasks..

what's your fear factor on this....saying something like..feeling him out as to what he sees down the road...and how do you see yourself in six months to a year from now.....

I'm not sure exposure is the issue...the issue is your husbands not valueing no contact...that's the issue...and that is his choice....

and from his choice you then can make yours...

ark^^

I get the feeling you really understand where I am at. So many on this board are real advocates of exposure as a tool to break down their spouse and get them to go NC with the OP.

Exposure has been necissary for me to build my needed support group to get through this. WH's boss is not a close friend.

IF the boss did seperate WH and OW in different bank branches, that doesn't mean that WH will suddenly be committed to the M will it?

I'm at the point where I don't expect a darn thing from WH´. This Plan A is to feel good about myself again and leave this marriage knowing that I did EVERYTHING I could to save it and did EVERYTHING to be the best possible person I could be.

I do have plans for after Plan D, but I'm not going to tell WH about them. That wouldn't be advantageous to the financial outcome of a D and believe me, I am going to try to get everything I can ... I've given up my family, my firends, my country, my language, my culture, have re-educated and found a new profession to fit WH and the family's needs ... if it comes to a D, I will not willingly sacrifice anything from custody to alimony to retirement and life insurance. There is a strange law in this country that a non-EU citizen can not purchase or inherit real estate, but they can become sole owners through divorce. Our house is my financial security. WH thinks that after the dust settles from a D he can move in to the adjoining house with MIL and the OW and her 2 kids and we can all be buddies and he can continue to come and go and manipulate my life. Talk about La-La Land. I'll have the house rented out by then and will be off with the kids to the city where I have an incredible standing job offer and D17 will start University and I've even got a school picked out for D10.

Sound mean? I don't think so. We've built up a great life together, WH is the one choosing to toss it all away. The door is still open, the light on and the welcome mat out, but Plan A will not go on forever.

I just had my first appointment with Steve and am recollecting my thoughts. He reinforced me that I am on the right track with my modified Plan A. He says I need to monitor my stamina and endurance on this, be careful that my love bank doesn't get totally empty. I need to leave some hope left for Plan B. I should not only have a commitment of NC to the OW from WH before he moves in, I should also negotiate a plan for recovery. This is very important and I should not miss this window of leverage. As far as exposure to WH's boss, he thinks that I should hold this one off for Plan B. I've exposed enough to get a good support group going for myself and our marriage and to make it very uncomfortable for them to enjoy whatever time they are sneeking in together.

Most of the appointment was logically getting a sort of anamnese put together for him, a reenforcement of the path that I am on which I feel good about. The two major things were the exposure question and the stipulation that I negotiate a recovery plan BEFORE WH moves back in. This is a biggy that I have not been thinking about, I have just been so focused on getting him to agree to NC --- there is still a long road after that.

So, now I am going to study the section on recovery again in Surviving an Affair and all that information here on this site again. Does anyone have other suggestions for what I should do to prepare for negotiating recovery?

Begin thinking about what "compensation" for the affair looks like...as well as what extraordinary precautions should be in place to protect the marriage.

Lost, please be careful in these waters ~ ark has a very valid question here. There is a difference between making decisions that are best for you and your M recovery, and power-struggling. IMVHO, when you begin consulting/informing the WS or OP of your decision-making, it is because you might WANT something from them knowing that information. For instance, for it to scare them into backing off, getting them to "see things your way," perhaps even committing to NC.

My experience has been to consult with people you trust about the decisions you think need to be made, then ~ make the decision. The CONSEQUENCES of your decision is supposed to be what will affect change ~ NOT WS or OP knowledge of your line of thinking.

Does that make sense? No power-struggling. That is one of the many important things I learned from ARKIE ~ the girlie girl. I learned both what power-struggling looks like, and why it is no good.

Spidey

Thanks star*fish

I am still digesting my couseltation with SH.

Another thing he said I should do is to get varification from WH that I am on the right track. When I see that he is noticing positive changes in me, maybe I can get him to varify what his most important emotional needs are. I'm not sure if I can actually get him to fill out the questionaire, but maybe I can encourage him to define his needs verbally.


Any one els have more suggestions for negotiating recovery with WH... assuming that he will eventually agree to NC?

Spidey,

Thanks for clarifying this for me.

No power struggles. No expectations. No participation in a relationship triangle. I can change my behavior, but not WH's.

Slowly, but surely, this is sinking in. Keep me repeating the mantra my friends!

So, I am still digesting my consultation with SH and have been thinking about what I would want to negotiate with WH before he moves back in (should it ever come to that). This is important, because you don't want to return to the same environment that made the affair possible in the first place.

I have come to believe that one of the things that has made WH affair possible is that he has never really seen us as a team. He kind of got to do whatever he pleased with his non-job time, if the weather was bad and/or he felt like it, he would help out with the kids, household, etc. He never wore his wedding ring. He refuses to put up a photograph of me and the kids in his office. I gave up a flourishing career for my family, gave up my country for his, my language for his, my culture for his, my family for his, my friends for his... A lot of resentment about issues of control, dependency, and identity built up on my part over the years and would result in my committing love busters such as angry outbursts and disrespectful judgements. ... It sounds worse than it was, really, we had for the most part a harmonious and happy marriage and I am happy in this country. I've learned the language well and have integrated myself to become a respected and admired member of the community. After years of doing frustrating part-time jobs, I created a tailored career niche that fits my talents, education and experience and now have fulfilling work that I can, for the most part, do from my office at home, making it possible for me to be available for my husband and children. To get where I am today required another degree, which I was able to do with home study and 5 3-day trips a year over a period two years to the college. It was during this time that my husband began his affair. I think that it had started emotionally before then and he used my studies an excuse and blame for his affair.

This is incredibly unfair, since we discussed this before I began this 2-year study and got his agreement. I always get my husband's agreement for everything, he on the other hand just goes on mountain climbing or biking trips (things I als enjoy) without me, without my agreement, assuming that I will take care of all domestic responsibilites on my own. Maybe he felt threatened in his role as the main provider and didn't like me demanding him to do his part with the family and household.

SOOOO....

I don't want to go back to that. Not only will I require proof of NC to OW now and in the future plus 100% committment to our marriage, I also want to instill a committment to the Policy of Joint Agreement. Two things, so simple and clear-cut that even a still-foggy FWH should be able to compehend. The beauty of the POJA is that it is so broad and if it is employed correctly should help us fulfill each other's emotional needs and prevent LBs.

OK. That is still only a possiblitly for the future. I am still in Plan A, albeit separated. I'm depositing LUs and avoiding LBs at all costs. ...and I am letting go of resentment. When it rears its ugly head, I just don't go there. Yes, I am assuming that the A is ongoing. There is still regular contact with the OW. But I am no longer part of that triangle.

If I allow WH back, I want us to begin a completely new relationship as equal partners. No more power struggles, no more resentment and LBs. We've built up a good financial basis, we are both successful and repected members of the community, we share two exceptional children, have a supportive network of family and friends, and a lovely home. OW can not give him that ... WH will sacrifice his social position, daily contact with his children, will loose friends, will loose his home, will suffer financially.

If I can break the cycle of LBs with a really stellar Plan A, perhaps WH's fog will break and he will see what a happy and fulfilling life we could have together. He's not only stoewalled himself from me, but from all his friends. Perhaps he will see that us building a new marriage is a better option than the current misery.

If not, I believe that I have the tools to build a deeper love with a different partner in the future. For me, divorce is a better option than the hell this A has been.

Losttranslation,

I have been reading your situation, and wondered about a few things. How long since you know about A? Has he admitted to it and does not want to give it up? Did you ask your H to leave? Do you have a separation agreement in place with visitation rights,etc., or not?

Rather than PLAN B you are doing PLAN A while separated. Does this mean he comes and goes as he likes at your home to see the kids, eat, etc. the only thing being he does not sleep at the house and goes elsewhere to sleep only? Or, do the kids go and stay over at his place? Do you have a timeline of how long you will do PLAN A? Are you intending to go to PLAN B or to D?

Maybe you can refer me to an earlier thread of yours to get me up to date on your situation, if I have too many questions that could be answered by it.

I agree, Ark^^'s piece is very helpful, and bravo to you. It looks like you are doing a great job.

I have a WS who is having an A and wants to maintain R with OW, intends to move out by himself, but would like to remain 'in good terms' with me. I am finding PLAN A hard to do while he is still living at home and knowing of A with OW. I have asked that he end A, but of course he won't, and therefore 'plans' to move out.

In your situation, LL, does your WH seem to like the arrangement? I would think he could, since he seems to be able to come home whenever he wants, keep his A, and with you doing PLAN A he finds it pleasant. Does he want to come back home? Did you give him a delay to make up his mind, before you move on? Do you talk, or is it limited to 'family gatherings' only.

I am sorry. I have a lot of questions. LL, how do you handle the pain of your WS choosing to be with OW, while doing PLAN A at the same time. The pain management is the hardest part I have dealing with, and could use some suggestions. You are definitely an inspiration, and showing me that it can be done.

In the future, I may look to you, not to offer advice like so many here, but to ask you for advice, and I hope it's OK with you.

lunamare,

I'm so sorry you are going through this! Hopefully we can give each other some support through this. I'm glad you found this site, it has been a tremendous help to me --- everyone is so generous with their experience and advice.

If you click on my user name you will be led to my profile, then you can click on "see user's posts" or somethiong like that and take a look at all my threads, if you like. I suspect that my WH's affair has been going on and off for up to 4 years, but he didn't admit to it until the end of November 2004. I was in denial for so long. The OW is the godmother of my youngest daughter and I thought we were close friends, I couldn't believe that they could act like we were all good friends and the two of them be carrying on behind my back. Double whammy.

Pain management is difficult. I suffer from post traumatic stress disorder because of this whole ordeal and take medication to help combat sleeplessness, depression, and panic attacks. I am doing MUCH better and suffer NO side effects from my medication, but had to try a few different things out before I found out what works. I have gained back all the weight I lost, which is good because at only 105 lbs to start out with, I did not need to loose any weight at all. Besides medication, exposure of the affair to family memebers and close friends and generally people you trust that will disapprove of WH's affair and be supportive of you through this difficult time is important. Not only do you need a strong support group, taking the secrecy away in which the A thrives makes its continuation difficult and a lot less fun and exciting.

A major step with me was to realize that I can not control what WH does and it is a waste of energy to try. I Know now about the A, so it is also a waste of energy to be tracking and worrying about his every movement. If you can get to this point with your husband still living at home, all the better. I couldn't and was committing major love busters left and right on a daily basis. NOTHING WH could do was right. If you can distance yourself emotionally with him still living at home, you have a better chance of depositing more love units. Try to think of your husband as having been obducted by an alien spaceship, his body is now inhabited by an illogical alien. Still, despite this alien being cruel and illogical, you have the responsibility for representing humanity to this being from outerspace: be kind, act like you are happy and in a good mood all the time, don't beg and plead or be needy, don't try to control the alien, don't get into power struggles. Be kind, but distant. Let him know that you expect him to cut off all contact with the OW. KEEP BUSY!!! Make a to do list every day and listen to inspiring music as you do it. Be the woman you've always wanted to be. If the alien moves out on his own, so be it. He is one step closer to facing the reality of his actions. He will remember that you were kind and cheerful and were changing in to a positive fun person to be around (none of us were positive and nice during our WS's affair --- we were all depressed and angry about the crappy treatment we were getting).

My current guideline for continuing this seperated Plan A is until mid-July, then I will do a Plan B until the end of September, when it will then be Plan D. That could change as I will be following Steve Harley's advice on this.

I hope that I have helped you out some, please point me to your own thread and I will keep in contact with you there as well. Once you start employing Plan A successfully, you will start feeling better about yourself. Demeaning the OW is easy to do, but since she is superficial and dishonest, being the better woman is easy too. Work on being the best woman you can and do not step down to her level. Be a little snobby....

WH invited D10 over to his appartment for dinner tonight. She hasn't seen him much at all the last 2 weeks, between his "seminar" and his romp in northern Italy. BTW, I'm fairly sure that OW was not with him, so why did he try to hide this from me? Or did he dump her at the last minute after I politely asked for more details of his trip?

D17 is at her boyfriend's this evening, so I told WH I needed the car for this evening and would he please put D10 to bed tonight (at our house, in her bed, of course). He didn't even ask what I was going to do. All my girlfriends are busy tonight, so I think I'll go to the spa. That's not really been my thing in the past, but I guess I can give it a shot. So off I go to the sauna and solarium. Maybe I'll get a massage to boot.

WH used to call me daily from work. Now I've started calling him or showing up, when I have a car.

I'm just rambling here. Kind of a log for myself and my concerned friends here to help track my progress.

I felt a little frightened today, but not too bad. I got lots of work done. I generally feel much more at peace with myself.

LL, thanks for replying to me in your thread. I do see that you have found my thread and appreciate your supportive words. I do see how your having definite plans have made you stronger, and you are able to see things right up to Plan D. You have a fan, and as I said, you are an inspiration to me.

The sauna at the spa is closed on Tuesdays for the summer! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> So, I ended up just swimming a few laps. Then I plopped some conditioning goop in my hair and wrapped it in plastic while I was in the solarium. Then I put on a little make-up before I went home just in case WH would still be hanging around after having put D10 to bed.

And he was still there when I got home! He felt kind of stuck because D17 wasn't home yet, he didn't know where she was, and she wasn't answering her cell phone! Poor guy, had to take a little family reponsibility. I rewarded him by inviting him to stay for a glass of wine. He did! We had a pleasant chit-chat first. Then I asked him how he was doing looking for a new job. For the first time he told me lots of details about it and he sounded really enthusiastic about the possibility. It is a new venture from a prestigious financial institution and he should know more in 2-4 weeks. I'm trying to be cautious here, but it does look like he is working on NC with OW...Still I should know not to believe it until I see it.

I just got a contract for another large project, so work is going better for me, too. I'll keep on plugging with this Plan A mantra:
No LBs
No expectations of WH
Always cheerful around WH
lots of fun family activities - WH can take part, we still have fun if he doesn't
Self improvement and self healing
firm boundaries

I've realized that I have a lot of resentment built up inside me. Not just resentment about WH's A and his treatment of me since that all started, but that I was resentful before that too.

There are some issues about control, dependency, and identity that I had bottled up. WH has always practiced independant behavior.

It is going to be vital for me to get WH to agree to a POJA. That means that he is going to have to give up his independence and view as as equal partners in a team. That will be a major change and tough to implement.

I think I'm getting ahead of myself here. First thing's first. WH really needs to have noticed the changes I have made. I need to get some varification from him on that and ask him if he can help me further by defining his emotional needs. I've ordered the book "His needs, her needs" in his language. I'm not sure if I can get him to fill out the questionaire or not, but perhaps we can at least discuss it. At this point I am guessing that his most important ENs are: admiration, domestic support, sexual fulfillment, recreational companionship, and affection.

If I can fulfill his ENs really well, perhaps he would bemore open to take a look at the MB philosophy. I would really like to do the home study course, but I know that if I were to pounce this on him, he would think that I was trying to control him.

I just finished a telephone call with WH about weekend plans. He asked if D10 could stay the night at his place tonight. I agreed. D17 had already asked me if I would go out with her tonight. Can you believe it? How many teenagers want to go out to a bar where where their friends hang out and take their mother with?

WH gave me the DVD Sideways for my birthday and we had arranged to possibly watch that together on Saturday night, but now we have been invited to friends' place for dinner. I didn't tell WH what my preference was, just made the statement. The couple that invited us were together with us and OW and OWH all "bestfriend couples" once upon a time. Lets call this couple Peter and Pam, to make it easier. Peter is one of the bosses of the bank group where WH works and he and OWH are the ones that informed me of the A. Needless to say, this made WH feel really "betrayed" when his bestfriends busted him!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Peter even offered to transfer OW to another bank branch, but WH blocked that move and ever since then Peter has been just as stonewalled from WH as I have. Pam has cut off contact to OW out of loyalty to me... I didn't expect that of her, but gee, has she ever been a steady comfort and a shoulder to cry on for me. It really ticks WH off that Peter sees himself as just as much a friend to me as to him and that I talk to them about the situation. Sooooo, I was surprised when WH said, "Well, let's go to Peter and Pam's place then." Not really sure how to interpret that one. We might watch the film on sunday evening instead or maybe go mountain biking together.

So it looks like I will have some time with WH this weekend. I'm going to try a small R talk and do SH's assignment. I'm going to ask him if he is seeing some changes in me that he likes and if so, ask him what things he has noticed and liked. Then I will tell him that I plan on working more in this direction and ask if he would be supportive of that. Then I will talk to him about the his needs/her needs concept. I'll see if I can get him to agree to fill out the his needs questionaire for me. At this point, I expect he will say no. Then, relying on what I believe to be his three most important ENs, I will ask him if he would like it if I did such and such more often, if he liked the way that I do it or if he would like it if I did something different. I'll try to insert a few funny or riduculous suggestions, too, just to try and keep it light. I'll also keep this conversation as short as possible... 15 minutes max so he doesn't feel pressured and then I'll change the subject to something funny and interesting that happened to me this week.

How does this sound?

Other than that I plan to be fun, fun, fun this weekend! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Lost

you sound so very very good... hard to believe you are the one with first posts that spoke of being so stagnated and overwhelmed...

your strength
your wisdom
your gifts of grace shine thru on your posts where you give dead on advice to others....

The fact that husband is willing to go to dinner party is really interesting news...especially with people that were out wardly distasteful of his choices...

wonder what his motives are...

hope they are not a pretend "see we are fine" ploy
and I hope they are choice for him to 'test the waters and face the music...."

Just the fact he is going is good in my opinion...

buy something flirty and wonderfully new...
ARK^^

(((((ark^^)))))

I am so thankful to you and all the members here for helping me and others so unselfishly. I am thankful to my parents for instilling me a healthy self esteem. I am thankful to my daughters, for their joy and inspiration.

Through all this turmoil I have discovered who my real friends are and have discovered new friends in unsuspected places...


The "see we are fine" ploy would be a typical one for my WH. It just turns D17's stomache to see it and she is SO critical of her father about it. "If your gonna be nice to Mom, be real!" Whether it is a ploy or not... I read your mind and I've got a really cute new little red linen dress in a little more playful style than I would typically buy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />Girls just wanna have fun! Still, when he brings me home after a fun flirty evening, I'll stop him at the doorstep this time. I've gotta get up early to go on a big mountain bike tour with some friends! Toodle loo!

I've always been such a push-over for WH especially since SF has been the only one of my ENs that was getting fulfilled on a regular basis. This should be a surprising 180° for him.

Well, I didn't get to my assignment from SH yet.

We did go to Peter and Pam's on Saturday night and WH did compliment me on the dress. We talked a lot about EU politics, refugees, and modern art. The conversation was lively, interesting, and peaceful. Our views are fairly similar, but our areas of expertise vary. These would not have been conversations that OW would have been able to contribute to...

WH wasn't feeling too good and so he didn't even ask to come in anyway. The weather was too crummy on Sunday to mountain bike, so I changed plans to take D10 and a couple of her friends to the spa. When I called WH to check if I could have the car, I discovered he had come down with a fever in the night. I brought him some chicken soup when I came to pick up the car, but he said he'd rather have a salad...

I didn't have the planned R talk with him yet. I decided to postpone until he is feeling better again.


Sometimes I get the nauseating feeling that he and OW think that they are being so noble for not sleeping together anymore. I imagine them having these heart wrenching conversations about how they are true soul mates and the world is too cruel to let them be happy together...
How do you get a WS to realize that they will never be happy until they establish absolute NC? That BS demand for NC is not about revenge, its about recovery?

I guess if they ever realize this, it is not until the marriage is on the recovery road.
If WH does finally establish NC, it will be because I "forced" it on him. He really doesn't have a choice. I think he is starting to miss our children, our house, our lifestyle. A divorce would mean a substantial financial cut for him, which will ultimately be his reason for coming back. I think I will have to put up with the feeling of being his second choice for quite a while.

My list for conditions before allowing him to come back is getting longer:

1. NC to OW ever: one of them must change jobs.
2. establish POJA in our marriage
3. WH should talk to SH: I think that this would really help him to be a lote more optimistic about having a better M than ever in the future
4. ... I fear this one is unrealistic and one I will have to sacrifice, at least for the time-being: agreement to do the MB recovery course.

Rambling thoughts...any input my friends?

I realize that I am a bit of a rambler, but I'd like to give my helping friends here as much info as possible so you can advise and support accordingly, and it also does me good just to vent.

SH had advised a back door approach to WH to bait him with getting all his ENs met.

I just returned from WH's appartment and it was incredibly foggy there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I NEED YOUR INPUT!!!

After attending a funeral together (I'm still the one he likes to show off in public) we had arranged to talk and I accompanied him to his appartment. There I told him that the distance of being separated had done me well and I am now able to see things in a completely different light. A healing process has begun for me and I have been able to let go. I have been concentrating on improving myself, enjoying life, and having more fun with the kids and MIL (she counts as another very sweet child at this point in her life). Another one of the things that I have been doing is trying to figure out what I did wrong, what needs of his were not getting fulfilled, and what I can do now and in the future to contribute to his happiness. I said I wondered if he had noticed a difference.

He said that he did.... BUT then it got foggy. blablablaababble ...I need to earn more money and be more independant, but I can't use our car, because this is too stressful for him.... and I need to earn money, but I have to realize what a burden it is for SIL to look after D10 and D17 when I work outside the house (please do realize here that I have my office at home and typically work a total of 30 days a year outside the office <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) SIL adores my kids, she's retired, and she always gives the impression that she enjoys this. Besides I am sharing in the nursing of her mother! More blablablababble from WH. Then, it "really upsets him and is counterproductive that I continue to talk about his affair to other people". I replied, that that is the idea that being open and truthful will be counterproductive to his affair, but be a source of support for me an our children and our marriage. I suggested that the most effective way to get people to stop talking about his affair is to completely end contact to OW forever and that that is still what I expect him to do in order to reestablsih stability and security for our children and safety and trust for me.

In the end, it was established that he will take no part in MC, he will not complete an EN questionaire..... but he will talk to SH who is responsible for furthering my path in meeting his needs.

I did receive the His Needs, Her Needs book in WH's language, but I realized that if I gave it too him
now, he would never read it. My denial of the A and my LBs throughout have left a big deficit... still some work to be done there, but I continue to focus my main current
recovery plan on me and the kids. I'm not always real motivated at making WH feel good. That is perhaps a reason why a separated Plan A works better for me. I am in more control and can dose the deposits in WHs love bank according to my energy level... and simply retreat when I am feeling angry or alienated.

I will make an appointment with SH, hopefully for Friday, and let WH talk to him about his take of the situation. I told WH it would really help me out on my path of letting go, self improvement, and better fulfilling his needs in the future...

i imagine that SH will then be able to advise me on whether or not I should expose to WH's boss and when it is time for Plan B.

Plan B must be getting close. There are days now that I am ready for Plan D.

^^^^bump
I feel angry today about the many foggy things that WH said last night. I was able to ignore most of them, just letting them roll off me like a duck.

It would be so tempting today to list some of the things that he said last night and then give proof as to why his statements and even accusations have no basis in reality whatsoever.

Here I was talking about his needs in a positive way and he behaves selfishly and irresponsibly.

I feel angry and burnt out. Why am I fighting to save this marriage?