I am sorry for the suffering you have been through, and are currently going through, but that doesn't mean that you were never angry or bitter at some point. Just because someone is reacting to a sitch right now, doesn't mean that's where they stay! If that were the case, then I should still be wallowing in my own anger and bitterness, but I'm not, because I was able to vent and get it out. And, by venting in a place like this, she's keeping that bitterness away from her children. In choosing NC, she's keeping any possible residual anger away from the OC. She's set her boundaries, and should stand by them with her H. She needs to look at all the available help on this board, read up on Plan A/B, POJA, LB, EN, I could go on and on. As I said before, we are almost 5 yrs post d-day. Plus, my H had many A's and I had 2, so we have both been on each side of the coin here.

We are all responsible for our own actions and how we handle the results of such actions. No two sitchs are alike, and should not be treated as such. There are many different variables, and personalities, and so the end result, although the goal of most is to rebuild their M, will be reached by many different avenues.

Again, I'm sorry for the suffering you've gone through, but try to be a little more understanding of others who ARE new to just finding out about the OC from their spouse's A. Also take into account that they may not be telling the whole story to keep their anonymity. We can only work with what we are given on a public board.

You said in your first post taht your H has cheated on you several times...now he has an OC from a past A...is he cheating on you NOW? What makes YOU so much stronger than you MIL...you have stayed with your own H thru multiple affairs...does that make you a weak person as well?

We are just trying to UNDERSTAND your situation so we can help you as best we can...but if you want to go, that is fine...But I think that you COULD get the help that you need here, but you ahve to be HONEST with everyone so they can help you!

And you need to stop blaming the OW for your H's actions...the only person who controls your H's actions is your H and NO ONE else...Maybe one day you will realize that!

trying~

I've learned to ask questions first instead of jumping to conclusions and making assumptions out loud. Trust me, I have a whole LOT of assumptions about this poster going through my mind, (ie. red flags), ALL of which could be wrong. So I asked her questions. I've also learned that it helps to know certain factors, in order to best help a poster. So I asked questions.

Further, if support means one is only allowed to agree with another, and let an absurd opinion go unchallenged, then by that definition, yah I guess I'm not very supportive.


~ad

Hope you're still reading, crazed.

I think the best place to start is reading through the MB website -- just plow through all the principles and concepts there. I'd then read their book, Surviving an Affair. It goes through the whole process of affairs and healing after them. Have you H read it, too.

I think that after doing so you may understand a little better some of the responses here, too. The material is very direct and pulls no punches. BS are held to account for the state of the M before the A -- not in the sense that it's their fault, but that very few As occur in perfect marriages. The fact that your H had several past As and you have discussed them rather flipply as (1) all men cheat and (2) he can't help himself, indicating that maybe to some degree you have enabled them to occur, if only by never requiring or expecting him to behave differently. For your M to get on the right track, you may both need to "get real" about what you expect from your M and then work on some new ways to make that happen. The Harley's offer phone counseling and it is really awesome, hands-on coaching on fixing your marriage given your circumstances.

As for what to do about the OC, that is truly up to the two of you -- read about the Policy of Joint Agreement in the Harley's principles to see what I mean. Everyone's circumstances are too different to say no matter what you should or shouldn't have contact with OC; only you can look at all the facts and make that call.

I hope you stick around; I really don't think there's a better place for you to find this kind of help right now! All internet forums can get a little strained sometimes; there's a lot that lost in translation to words on a screen. I assure you, even though the discussions can be pretty direct, no one is out to judge you or think badly of you!

WL~ You may want to change that to "not everyone is out to..."

Wouldn't want to be accused of making sweeping statements too, would you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Boy I do feel some love. I mean by my views and replies people are interested. But maybe I should kinda start over since by me jumping around the sitch has confused some (such as autumnday).
I guess my very first post was a little vague due to the fact I am very new to this message board thing. I just re-read my original post and I thought it was short but accurate. I guess my opinion on the OW was so strong because from my D-Day (April 18th) all I've heard is poor OW and OC. How awful for them. My D-Day was the first I had heard of OC. My H however knew from jump start but felt that since she hasn't asked him for anything even to see the baby he thought good chance (or really hoped) she may not be his. Remember no test done yet. When I first got the papers I was stunned and actually did feel for the Ow. I figured he had to be filling her head with words of love and promises of a future. I mean he is charming. But she was the one who told me he never claimed any emotions for her and told her repeatedly that he was not leaving his M. She was the one who got pg on purpose I feel hoping he would leave me. I did meet the OW and OC and she seemed nice and sorry for what she did. She said DSS made her file papers since she gets Medicaid and she needed the Medicaid. But now 4 weeks later she won't return my calls which tells me there is a snake in the grass somewhere. I mean we didn't fight or anything in our visit. I was way nicer then I should hsve been. I was mature. I just feel she's out for what she can get from H and me. It's not about the kid with her either. I mean how many OW have not been b*tches to the H and wife because they are mad that things are not going their way. Like under the circumstances they would. It just makes me mad that everyone blames the H when to me the OW's intentions are far worse. H usually just feels that we the wives will never find out. Not saying it makes it any more right but initial intentions to me mean the world of difference. Like I said all of it is wrong but I do feel that my H felt he was getting what he needed and was not placing his marriage in jeopardy. She was telling him all lies herself and in his stupidity he believed her. So she lied to him, he lied to me. It just goes on. As far as this not being the first time he's cheated I do hate to say no it's not. He was caught back in 1996 after messing with a co-worker (who was also M and H was in Saudi Arabia in Army). He was fired for the affair when our son was two weeks old. After that A he really seemed to realize the pain he had caused. I spent years reading everything on affairs and sexual addiction. I mean I studied trying to find any piece of mind that I could. He seemed to truly be sorry. He did get his job back and a couple years after that episode he was transfered to another town. I knew (or maybe just felt) that that would be the end of our M. I just felt if we were separated then he would cheat again. So I emotionally and sexually separated myself from him. I knew if it did happen again and I wasn't so shell shocked like before then I wouldn't go crazy again. But somehow in the separation I ended up pg again so I did eventually move with him. But I felt from the first moment I moved there that something was wrong. I knew he was cheating. I just felt it. But I thought oh well I don't care as long as he's here for the kids. But I still kept myself distanced from him. We didn't talk, have sex, or anything. Unless a kid was involved we were strangers. So I guess no I am not shocked he did it again. I know I am part to blame for that. He really did feel he was only getting emotional and physical needs met by her. I really don't think he even considered this to ever come up where I was concerned. Once we moved from that area the M got better. I feel mostly because I wasn't feeling icky everyday and I started acting like his wife again. We ended up pg again and all seemed well. I think he felt that because she hadn't asked for anything then none of this was a problem. I understand they remained phone buddies now and then so she could have at anytime asked him for money or visitation. She hasn't. He was just as shocked when those papers came to the door. No I am not saying he should have cheated. I am saying that I do realize I am a factor in the problem. I even had a small affair myself because we were so distanced at that time. Yes he knows of my A as well and it opened my eyes to the cheaters side. I finally realized all the stuff he had told me the last time. I never intended to leave my family or place anyone in danger. I knew somewhere deepdown I loved my H but I was in need of something. So I can look at this A in a different way only because I can see that sex does not mean he dosen't love and care for me even though by his actions it would say he didn't. I do fault him as well as OW. Trust me we have this talk every night about how I do feel this A may have caused our family to end. We are separated at the time. But I still feel her intentions were meliaceous. She wanted to hurt me and him. He never meant to hurt me or her. And still is not trying to hurt anyone. He thought he and her had a good relationship with no lies. She on the other hand just wants to screw with our M. I don't feel she's just out to get her D the family she deserves. If she was she would talk to me. She would be trying to work out something. I made it clear to her I was upset but I was still a mother myself. I was trying to be fair to her but she needed to be fair to me. I see now that for whatever reason she wanted to meet me she had some other reason then what she claimed. Maybe just curious. So when I lay a tad more blame on the OW it's not letting my H off of anything. I just guess intentions make the difference. He honestly wanted sex and a sympathetic ear. She wanted a baby and H hence knowing she was doing all she could to ruin a family. And please no one print "He ruined the family, not her. No one made him sleep with her" blah blah blah. No noone made him sleep with her. But can you blame a starving man for jumping on a cake when the cake portrays itself as a steak. He was lonely and horny and she made herself VERY available with lies and fantasy as well.
autumnday how are you seeing red flags on my post? Let me try and answer your latest questions.
When my dad kidnapped me I was 4. I do remember the day. He had hunted us down again wanting me and she told him to take me for a few days. She says now that she thought he would bring me back, he always did. She told me she did call the cops but they said if there was no court order on who had custody then he had as much right as she did to me. My father was strange. He had a government job (all I'm saying) and he made her life hell. I do remember my father leaving me at the wifes house twice. I have met all my siblings, but I was 4. I didn't mean that I hadn't met them just that I don't know them. My father only claimed me and my oldest brother. He use to say he didn't even know if the other four were his. My grandmother says that his wife was a big cheater herself. I don't know if dad had any contact with the others. He lived with me but would disappear for months on his "job". For all I know he could have been doing the double life thing you see on 20/20. My oldest brother (10 years my senior) moved with us to Seattle. He was old enough to make his own choice. And my dad always said he knew me and him were his kids. Maybe thats why we were his favorite. I don't know. I moved back south once my dad died. All of his family is here.
I don't mind hearing anyones opinion. I love peoples different view points. I just don't need someone telling me I'm evil because I guess they feel I should be this super woman and take this kid under my wing. I just feel that I wasn't consulted in the conception it's not my business other then where it hurts me taking care of ny family. This is OW's mess as far as kid and daddy go. I just don't get what jph thought I should do? She never gave much direction. She only liked the word mature and evil. I am here on my own free will and asking for you wonderful people to help me see insight. I know I opened myself up for a lot of sh*t when I posted. I really do not mean to offend anyone. Like I said nothing I say to any feedback is being attacking. However I do feel that some of the feedback has attacked me. So if I offend sorry. I hope this may have helped some understand my stich a little better. But if I've once again confused anyone then please ask away.

crazed Momma:

I understand your need to want to be heard.

Just a friendly suggestion so you can better accomplish that goal.

Please break your posts up into smaller segments.

Honestly,
ONE GIANT Long Paragraph is tough to read and Much Harder for readers to "get" what your trying to put out there.
Thanx

[color:"purple"] Uh yah that IS true about the one long post thing...it's kinda hard on the eyes. LOL

It's ok cm. Just take a deep breath.

I think you are trying.
I really feel for you. THe things you are saying aren't anything new (opinion wise) & I don't think your feelings & everything aren't anything ANY BW hasn't felt or thought herself, if she's being honest.

So where are you & H in the scheme of things now?

So you knew about his A w/ this girl but not about baby?
AND he was continuing phone C w/ her now & then you way?

THAT might be why she never asked for CS before....maybe the A wasn't really over all this time? @ the least he was continuing an emotional A. HE was keeping this child a secret from YOU for 3 years....uh hello? Why would he do that if you already knew about the A anyway?

That's fishy to me!

I understand your anger & the fact that you don't feel you ahve ANY obligation to this OC. I agree wholeheartedly w/ that fact. Of course if you want to stay married after all this & H wants to have OC in his lfe than you 2 have some serious discussing to do now.

He may very well been having a relationship w/ OC for the past 3 years....do you think that is a possibility?

Are you 2 IN marriage counseling now?
Do you plan on staying married @ this point or what?

I'm sorry that, w/ all you've been through, it has created quite a cynical side in you that you now believe EVERY man cheats. I began that same type of thinking in my mind after H A as well. I was becoming VERY cynical. But I no longer feel that way. It depends what you feed your mind w/.

What goes in, comes out. I began to look @ ALL the loving couples I did know. All the FAITHFUL couples & knew. Because they are there. NOT everyone cheats, although I do believe we are all capable of it, as Dr. Harley says in his books. Given the right situation & circumstances.....

But I know my dad never cheated, my grandfather never cheated, I can name more.

I hope you stick around. It's also true what tigger said, about what you dwell on...the same principle applies: garbage IN, garbage OUT.

Try to think on positive things.
You can control your thoughts.

Like you said, that you do not vent like this IRL.
BUT if you continue to dwell on it & be negative...it will shade your life that way. kwim?

Hang in there.
kt [/color]

crazedmomma,

Thanks for being honest. Like I said, I can't imagine what this is doing to you & your family. Well, in a way I can. I saw the he** my BIL went through, loving this child like his own, the child calling him daddy & then finding out this child was OM's. It was devastating for him.

I'm sorry you feel that every man cheats. I can a lot of people in my own life that haven't, older men that have died faithful to their W's after many yrs of M. But, I guess your view is skewed b/c of what you've been through most of your life.

I think I can understand why you feel that you have no connection to this child, but I think you're missing the fact that your children do & your H does. No, you didn't make the OW pregnant, not your choice, not your children's choice, that rests solely on the shoulders of your H & the OW; however, when this child gets older & then wants to go look for her father (I imagine it's much the same as an adoptee), looking for answers on why she was abandoned by her father, I hope you don't get the brunt end of it all, you end up being blamed for her father not loving her & being there for her.

I am not of the mind of "poor OW". I think women that are predators & go after M'd man w/a vengeance deserve the punishments they get, but who is being hurt in all this mess, really? You're an adult. You can walk away from your H at any time. I think I read that you're separated now. These children, yours & this OC, are all full of the same bloodline. Your H's. There's a part of him out there waiting to be loved. Maybe the OW can give her all that love on her own, maybe not. Maybe this child will grow up resenting her father b/c he chose to stay away from her, only providing financial support for her. Most children don't care about the $. They want the love from their parents. I wonder what goes on in these children's minds, 'Why do I have to suffer b/c of the crimes of my parents?' It truly saddens me.

I don't think you're an evil person. I just think you're confused, angry, hurt & looking for answers same as anyone faced w/your situation.

And for the record, my BIL has since D'd his W, still has contact w/his kids, including the OM's son, & met someone else who also cheated on him. So now his thoughts are pretty much like yours - that all WOMEN cheat. He's pretty much given up on women. He says staying single is a lot better than putting yourself out there to be hurt over & over again. He's pretty content just enjoying his kids when he has the chance.

I hope you can find some answers. Take care.

ETA: Thanks AutumnDay for recognizing that I have been here for a while. I usually post in Recovery forum only, but when I was browsing this morning, this post just struck me b/c of all the pain coming through in crazedmomma's post.

Thanks all. Sorry about the long posts. I'll work on that. To answer some of the questions asked in the last few responses.
I did not "KNOW" per say about this A. I had a feeling at that time that he was cheating just by his actions. I didn't get confirmation till I received the papers. I wasn't shocked about the A but I was shocked about the duration, the child, and other fine points. No he has not had a relationship with the OC. The OW has been mostly an emotional A for the past three years by the phone conversations. I was also told by both that she has driven here three times to screw him since we left her area. She says the last time being Sept 2003. I don't think he wants a relationship with OC. It's not my fault that he hasn't had a relationship so far so I don't feel I could be blamed later on. I mean he's known three years and never even met her. I believe that NC is best. This kids three and knows nothing of her father. If she ever has any questions about her daddy then it's up to her mother to explain how she was conceived. Of course I assume she'll lie. Just don't see her telling her d about how she degraded herself as my H ho. I do not feel my kids will suffer from not knowing her. Can't miss what you don't know. And as I've said before a sperm donation just does not make you family. So NO my kids at this point will have NC nor will I. If he does choose to start having a relationship with OC then I am out of here. I refuse to deal with any more then I have to. No we are not in counseling yet. Really don't have the money. Just paid attorney 1000 to file for cs and alimony. I am still working on what to do next. I'm just trying to protect my family now. I'll worry later about the rest.
Well let me go. Keep it coming.

cm, I just want to welcome you to the board. Sometimes we get people on this only want to judge and haven't been through this. Been here for years and at one point they gave us a *private* board b/c of the lurkers. Ignore them if you can.

I haven't read all those posts, esp. extra long ones. I don't think you're awful, You're doing the best you can under rotten circumstance, and putting your kids first. Be nice to yourself.

Prayers,
J

cm,

I don't think you're awful. I think you are hurt, shocked, in alot of pain and confusion. On that emotional rollercoaster where everything you "thought" you knew was wrong and everything you want to know seems evasive.

Don't make decisions now cm. Dr Harley suggests no major decsions for at least 6 months after discovery. Any chance your insurance may cover counseling? They usually won't cover the phone counseling offered here by the Harley's but it should cover some local providers.

You are doing the right thing by concentrating right now on your marriage and your family and getting legal help. Take some extra time to take care of yourself!!

CM, I hope you are ok! sometimes things people say are not meant to hurt you or demean you...I have said many a times that I was not coming back to this board because of something someone said to "hurt" me...but people do care and they are just trying to help.

We know you are shocked right now to say the least! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> But you will get thru this...We have all been there!

I have one question for you...you have said before you have 3 boys...but gave birth to four children <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> did a child die or something? Just want to clarify that part so we aren't confused by that! Take care

Thank you all once again. This has been a great emotional relief. I know some, probably a lot, are not going to agree with how I feel. I can’t help how I feel. I’m a nervous wreck right now because we go Thursday for paternity test. It’ll be the first time my H has seen the OC as well as the OW since she sold him out so to say. Even though I have met them I still don’t know how I will react now that I have come to realize she (OW) was a complete liar and more facts to the relationship has been revealed. I know I will most likely want to rip her head off but I am to old for that stuff.
To answer your question Momto3boys I have a 13-year-old daughter from my previous marriage. My H and I now how three boys. All are healthy. Let me ask you something. Did it bother you that the OW had the girl while you had all boys? My H and I even lost three boys in mis-carriage. No girls what so ever for us. I know that I am bitter that the ho got the girl. I see you recently filed for divorce. Was this because of the A and OC? I mean you filed almost exactly a month after baby was born. Just curious since we sound just like. I’m still unsure what to do. Divorce is still on the table. My H almost makes me feel as if I HAVE to file even though I don’t want one.
Talk to ya later.

I think it is only natural to feel resentment towards the OW no matter what sex the baby is...YOUR H is not supposed to be having children with other woman...Was I bitter that OW got the girl? NO, I was bitter because OW has what should be MINE...My H's baby...

My H and I decided when our last son was a year old that we didn't want anymore children...We were very happy with our three boys...I had a hysterectomy at that time..also due to other complications from my previous pregnancies...

What bothers me is that WE, as a couple decided TOGETHER not to have anymore children...and then he goes out and gets some other woman PG...I would be bitter no matter the sex of the child...

I filed for divorce not because of the baby...I was more than willing to accept the child into my home and life...I tried time and again to save this marriage...The OW works at one of H facilities and he refused to quit that job...going there once a week and seeing her...Eventually she would lure him back in...

I knew I had to file divorce..>I never wanted to and still do not want a divorce...but he gives me no choice...I cannot accept my H sleeping with another woman...He was out of the house for 5 months, before I filed...On April 13th after begging for ONE MORE CHANCE, I reluctantly let him back home...He kept assuring me it was over with her...We were filing for visitation rights and everything...I went to IC, he refused...Then one day he went to his "JOB" where she works...comes home and I KNEW something was wrong...he said he wanted tosee the baby...I said "OK, lets go see it" ...he said "NO, I want to see HER and the baby" and that was it...that was 3 weeks ago...

Now he is again begging to come back home...He says he doesn't know why he does this...He loves me and bla bla bla...I have reinstated the Divorce...I have told him the ONLY way we can reconcile is if he sells his practice and we move far away...So I told hijm to prove it that he wants to work it out...We go to court on July 7...

I am very damaged right now and honestly I dont think I could ever get ovre this if we were to reconcile...There will always be that anger...he has done a job on me...He is one of the worst WH's out there...I just cant live this way any longer...

I had to come to my OWN conclusion that I HAD to divorce this man...I WILL be ok...I KNOW I will...

sorry for the T/J...but you asked <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Momto3boys I feel you totally. However I do feel if the OW had had a boy it would be a little easier. I just feel that because she had the girl somehow I am going to have to file for divorce despite how much I don’t want to. All my H ever talked about was how much he wanted a girl. But at the same time in three years he has not had one thing to do with her girl. He says he never wanted a child by his mistress. That she took steps to change a relationship that meant nothing but sex to him and she knew it was only sexual. I’ve tried to see all of this in a different light but in the end I just feel angry and tired. I refuse to allow this child into my family or home. Sorry to all of those who feel I’m wrong. Get over it. I just refuse to play weekend mommy to someone I absolutely want nothing to do with. I don’t see why I should. I don’t see why any of you should. If your H’s want to play daddy to these mistakes (yes I said it) then let them do it without degrading you any more then they already have. And sorry but not every child born is a miracle and wanted. SORRY FACTS OF LIFE. By the way how do you women explain these other kids to people? I mean when your out and about with these OC and people ask who they are do you say “Oh this is my H’s mistresses kid that he had with her while cheating on me”. Just curious. I know the bitterness is showing. Sorry.
But I understand about the divorce part. I told my H he makes me feel as if I have no choice but to file for divorce. Like it’s something I MUST do now. I guess in the end the only one’s really hurt are our boys. Sorry I don’t have any feelings at this time for the OC. And please no one tell me how evil or wrong I am. I can’t help how I feel. And trust me I’ve tried. Cause like you said in the end we will be alright.

Crazed, if you want to divorce your husband just because he had a girl oc with this girl that is a pretty lame reason. He already has not shown anything for this child. He has told you he feels NOTHING. Your right it's not your problem regarding the oc. To be honest if it were me, I'd be worried about all the affairs my h had versus it being a girl. Is he willing to go to mc or ic? I hope that one day you can forgive this oc for what the her parents have done though as she is just as innocent as you and your kids and by saying that I'm not saying welcoming her with open arms.

I agree with you in the fact that you should get legally covered to protect your children and yourself!

Why should your childrens standard of living go down DUE to some unwanted child? Your children have to pay for the sins of the father- NO.

Your kids are the Primary, 1st Wanted children of this man, and should be taken care of FIRST and appropriately.
What ever is left over goes to the ******* child.

I think this is the only fair way.

YOU are only protecting yourself from the woman that is trying to ruin your childrens lives, thier feeling of security, thier needs not being met due to OW actions (like you said she choose to have her child-fatherless)

I understand how you feel......I don't care what they say MEN DO FEEL SOMETHING..........I am my own worst enemy and role play the different ways things could have played out and what would happen if things went differently....In my situation I would be more upset too if the child was a girl, because I didn't have it first or a girl at all....but yet I am angry that its a boy because I feel that it replaces my son so to speak...I guess its really a no win situation and either way we would fing fault in it. Best of luck and prayers from me!
Lara

Lara I have not read your story and all, so excuse me if I say something out of line, but there is no way that any child that your h produces could replace any of your kids!!!! Please remember that!