KA1, we have been going out about 2 months now, and last week we did have a talk about what we both wanted. She is divorced (about 2 yrs now) and said that she didn't want a commited relationship with anyone, she said she wanted to have fun and we have fun together. I agreed with her, but since then I can't seem to get her off of my mind. I just think she is a great person, and I do enjoy spending time with her.

knight50, it's funny you used the term needy. I keep picking up the phone and intending to call her, then put it down, because I don't want to come across as needy. I guess I do need to learn to control my emotions better. The having fun, and communicating seems to be going well and I am making a conscious effort after my failed marriage to communicate better. Hence the talk last week. I have been wondering if I should have even brought it up at all to begin with, because that might have made me sound too needy too.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

i know that i am needy and looking to fill a void so i have to refrain from getting involved with someone....i have fun when i go out but i see myself picking up the phone or trying to email cause i need to talk....needy....

i am also still in love with ex and not over that so it would not be fair or healthy to get involed...and let me tell you about being lonely...



i am trying to learn to be happy by myself and with myself

Wouldn't it be great to have a circle of "just friends" to pick from and go out from time to time? I too would love dinner and a movie - with someone who just wanted company and friendship, 'cuz that's where I'm at too.

That's why I've been thinking of hooking up with a gay guy I know. But I don't know him well enough to bring it up without risking offending him.

Hi, Cinderella! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <waving> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hey Knight, haven't you heard about "rent to own"?

If someone made decisions based on my reactions "early on" they'd be jumping to conclusions. I'm not in any "program" right now, but if I was, it would definitely be "rent to own" - at least initially until I got to know someone pretty darn well. If someone started pressuring me to put himself into my life before I felt comfortable with him, I'd say adios pretty quickly.



You see, I'm not willing to give up my life to make a relationship my priority either. To me, that's not how it works. Asking someone to give up the life she has built without getting to know each other first is putting the cart before the horse.

I don't believe that people with lives they enjoy are just hanging around hoping Mr/Ms Right drops in. And they are not likely to choose to get rid of those lives until they are sure they have a "better offer." Meaning that they are not so needy, which as you point out is also not a good thing.

I suppose there are people who are just biding time - but for me, I fully intend to ENJOY my life, not just endure it until something better comes along.

If I meet someone who has no interest in the things I'm doing, we are probably not compatible anyway. And if we ARE compatible, having him join me - or me join him to share his interests - would probably be such a natural progression that nobody would be "giving up" anything.

That is me, I fear. I think I am setting myself up to be hurt again.

I think one mistake we can easily make is to start over analyzing things. I mean we try and be mind readers and fortune tellers as though anybody can do it. The reality is that you can't do that. So, maybe your are in a bit of a rebound, but, also, maybe she is a good match for you.

I think the important thing is to be aware of what you are doing in the relationship and why you are doing it. If you are spending time with her because you enjoy her company, great! If you are spending time with her because you dread being alone, then that is a warning. Maybe it is a bit of both?? I would think that is likely. That's OK as long as you know what is going on inside of you. Years ago, I remember reading that bank tellers where trained to identify counterfit money by knowing what real money looked like, not by trying to know what every couterfit bill might look like.

I think the same is true for relationships. Know what a real one is and you won't be fooled by rebounding, selfish people, etc.

But, don't go crazy over analyzing things. Lighten up.

Good point. I think I may be a bit of both. I know I am spending time with her because I really do enjoy her company. I also think I may have some fear of being alone. Not really sure why I would since my marriage wasn't all that it was cracked up to be.

I would say my relationship is a bit of both also. BUT, it's not "fear" of being alone, rather, just not enjoying being alone.

I really like my time with this man. I think about him frequently during the day and while we don't talk every night, and I don't necessarily expect to, I miss it when we don't.

However, I disagree with the statement made by somebody that I am "renting". I am recently divorced. I am NOT ready for marriage. I am not ready to discuss marriage. I am ready to enojoy somebody's company and enjoy the feeling that somebody else is enjoying MY company. I don't think that every date needs to be looked upon as a potentional permanant partner. I am not ready for that at all. But, steady companionship is nice, and who knows what will happen in the future.

cm

Ok, help me out here. I called this lady friend of mine earlier in the week and asked her if she wanted to do something. We spoke last night on the phone and I again asked and we agreed to maybe do something this evening. Tonight I call her after work and she doesn't answer so I leave a message asking her to call. No call. I feel I am being blown off and now I am in the dumps. Up until a week ago we would talk every day on the phone, she would always return my calls. Now we talk maybe every couple of days and this is the first time she hasn't returned my call. I suspect she has met someone else recently and has begun dating him and I feel I have slid into 2nd place.

Such is life in the dating world I guess. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Moving ON,

It does sound like maybe she is brushing you off. You said that you had a "talk" recently, and that she was not ready for commitment. What did you tell her you were ready for?

Two years seems like enough time for healing, but I know in my mind, I cannot fathom fully trusting anybody else again. Even though I really like the guy I'm dating. You may have really spooked her, but, if you're ready for more, and she's not, than it's good that you got things out in the open, I guess.

I'm still wondering about that "R" talk for myself.

cm

Movin, you are far to available. An agreement to get together and do something on Friday night is not a date. It is an understanding that has no value. A date is "We agree to go to the movies on Friday night and I will pick you up at 7:00".

Talking every night to her is a mistake. She is taking you for granted or, worse, she sees you as needy. Absolute worst is that you may have fallen into the fatal 'friends' catagory. "Friend" is a word that means NO ROMANCE.

Get a life and fit her into it. Women have to know that they don't drive your lifestyle. Instead you will allow the right woman to fit into your life.

One more note: Hanging on to a woman is like hanging onto water. You can't hold onto her by squeezing tight with your fingers. You must cup your hands together and support her, give her a safe place to be. And she has to know that you can also separate your fingers and let her fall to the ground if she doens't respect you.

Good analogy Justin. I like that. I know she is going out with her girlfriends tonight, and I have plans with some friends of mine so that will be good. IF she happens to call at least I will be busy with friends of my own.

Apples and oranges deja vu. Rent to own is not the point of Dr Harley's analogy, so doesn't apply, I'd say your label, is just another way of saying dating, with the goal of "owning" because you are a buyer. Renters a are personality type, they want the benefits of dating (companionship, and safe(er..supposedly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> ) for the promiscuous), but without any real obligation, pretty much just takers.

My point about this, is if you are NOT a renter, then don't date renters (or at least only a few times) it is a huge waste of time, resources, and focus if your goal is to find a quality mate someday. Doesn't mean renters are bad people, they may be very nice, even possibly of some value as a friend (but friends with a taker is still risky), just means they are unsafe to date if your lifegoal is different than theirs (applies to other goals to). We only have a limited time on this planet, so why waste on things that return little value? There are plenty of interesting, fun-loving buyers to date, so my recommendation is to seek them out (if you are a buyer) and avoid renters, let em date each other, and mutually use each other, that seems fair. As for freeloaders that is even worse, they are of no value at all as friends, dates, or spouses...problem is they try to campflague themselves to get what they want...so can look like a renter...is hard to pull off looking like a buyer, if you watch closely for relationship behavior, and insist on celibacy, they usually exit pretty fast.

I am not sure you understood what I was saying deja. I agree time is a factor, and "assessments" must take that into account for sure. It could be said every dating relationship starts as "renting" in appearance... it is the "intent" I was addressing, if one (when the right person comes along), is willing and seeks a permanent partner, they are a buyer. If one just seeks fun and games, and will leave any relationship that develops to committment, they are a renter. I don't advise dating renters in the hopes they may morph into buyers, let them decide to be buyers first...the odds are much better that way. This is especially true for givers who are very vulnerable to renter/takers, thinking they will change them...rarely happens.

I am not concerned about "missing" a good prospect who is a renter, but may at some point "see" how wonderful I am, and become a buyer...there are plenty of buyers already to choose from. Nor am I interested in being some messed up womans "healing" relationship, so she can use me, then go off seeking whoever. I prefer women who are emotionally healthy, buyers not renters, and willing to make room in their lives (and vice versa), for someone else. I prefer not to be an "object", that just resides on some womans list of activities.


deja..If someone made decisions based on my reactions "early on" they'd be jumping to conclusions. I'm not in any "program" right now, but if I was, it would definitely be "rent to own" - at least initially until I got to know someone pretty darn well. If someone started pressuring me to put himself into my life before I felt comfortable with him, I'd say adios pretty quickly.

knight...yes of course, I agree, there is a proper rhythm to this, the issue is ones mindset. But if a person says would like to date you, but expect nothing from me, and I have no intention of letting this develop beyond just my personal needs...I would thank them for their honesty and move on. I have nothing but respect for honest renters, I think it is shortsighted, but at least they are telling you they are coming from a user/taker position... no foul. You don't really sound like a renter though.


deja...You see, I'm not willing to give up my life to make a relationship my priority either. To me, that's not how it works. Asking someone to give up the life she has built without getting to know each other first is putting the cart before the horse.

knight...I agree, intitally. The issue is if you philosphically (or emotionally) have no intentions of making a man (or woman in reverse) the first priority, then you are a renter, and need to be honest with that as quickly as possible, so you don't inadverently mess up a buyer's life because they thought you were a buyer too. The problem is we try to figure this out by behavior, that is not so good. Just cause someon will go out with you, take your calls, kiss on you does not mean they are a buyer, is best to ask, Emotionally healthy people have no problems with such conversations...if that makes someone run away, they are obviously messed up in some way or another, and that is good to know too.

deja..I don't believe that people with lives they enjoy are just hanging around hoping Mr/Ms Right drops in. And they are not likely to choose to get rid of those lives until they are sure they have a "better offer." Meaning that they are not so needy, which as you point out is also not a good thing.

knight...Is not a contest, is life choices, you do not look for better offer, you seek goals, mating is a goal, and as everyone here should know by now, and very difficult goal to achieve successfully. That means you alter your life FIRST. For example, you may love bike riding...but if you decide to take up (and be competent) rock-climbing you must stop riding (mostly, still do a little), and devote those resources to becoming a good rock climber. It surprises me how many people do not seem to understand basic principles like this when conducting their personal lives. You are correct, sitting around waiting for Mr/s right to drop in your lap is dysfunctional too. But studying up on dating, and judgeing people and acting accordingly is healthy. Dating is a full time job, if done successfully, and the better you do it, the greater likelihood of finding a great mate. I prefer to date women who understand this and apply it, that tells me right off I have a good (healthy, motivated) prospect..and we can have fun, and see what happens, but at least on the same page. I am NOT interested in competeing with a womans job, friends, or hobbies for her attention...do you see the difference deja?

deja...I suppose there are people who are just biding time - but for me, I fully intend to ENJOY my life, not just endure it until something better comes along.

Knight...I agree. A happy,well-rounded woman (or man) is more attractive than not. So what are your intentions, are you ready for a lifelong relationship, and doing the things needed to have that opportunity? Or do you just seek no strings companionship, which you will exit as soon as the man wants more? And don't you think it is only fair to make sure you understand where you are emtionally, and communicate that?

deja...If I meet someone who has no interest in the things I'm doing, we are probably not compatible anyway. And if we ARE compatible, having him join me - or me join him to share his interests - would probably be such a natural progression that nobody would be "giving up" anything.

knight...Yep, that's how it works, for those capable of, and seeking, true intimacy.

Great analogy Justin, I like it and will use it, that ok?

Agreed. But do you really think people are just buyers or renters? For me, whether I'm a buyer or a renter depends on the sitch. Years ago I dated a guy I really liked, but then I learned he eventually wanted to have kids and I didn't. So, while I was - according to your defs - a buyer, and so was he, we were not going to be "buying" each other.


Again, for me it's the sitch. I didn't plan to ever get married again after my first M ended. And when I met my current STBXH, that's one of the first things I told him. But, I changed my mind. Because my reasons for being a renter then were that I didn't believe I'd meet the right person, and I wasn't willing to give up my life for something less satisfying than what I had. You see, for me, the relationship has to be WORTH it - and it isn't just any old relationship that will do.

Now I find myself in the same mindset I was in when I met STBXH. Except that now I have two things to resolve: 1) the D finalized (very soon, very soon now), and 2) some personal soul searching to do - and until then I will be a renter. (I'm not dating until the D is finalized, and I doubt it will happen for quite some time even when the D is done.

I gave up things for my current H - and in retrospect, I am now worse off than I was when I met him and many years lost in the meantime. I really REALLY don't want to be feeling this way again some day.


I'm a renter at a point in time, and in a particular sitch. I can imagine being a buyer some day and with the right man, even though it doesn't seem very likely to me right now.


I respect your perspective though it's not the same as mine. I am not altering my life first. If I find someone who shares my interests, while we are each pursuing our respective lives, then and only then will I consider adjusting my priorities. In fact, I'm always adjusting them because I'm a person with less time than interests. But I also believe there should be room for a person to have several priorities, including a relationship, a job, a hobby, etc.


My intentions are to first finalize the D. I do not feel married anymore, and do not feel bound to him in that sense. Still, I personally want closure first, if for no other reason than the negotiations are taking a toll of sorts that isn't fair to "share" with someone else.

I have a longing inside for what I thought I was getting the last time around. There is a romantic inside of me but that person is slowly slipping into the background and could disappear altogether. I am afraid of being hurt again. I am afraid to find out I made yet another bad choice, and end up spending the rest of my waning years miserable.

So, I don't have many intentions right now. Instead, I remain deeply conflicted.

I was about to write you seem like a confused person to me deja...and you ended up saying that very thing (which is good, can't fix something till you own it).. and that is probably one of the reasons your relationship life has gone so poorly. Perhaps a buyer at heart, but becoming a renter cause of poor choices (and resultant pain). The solution is to get smarter, and apply the knowledge. As for now, just for example, and please don't be offended, you seem like a nice person, but I (as a male) would not date you regardless of your good attributes....because you don't know what you are doing, and that makes you emotionally dangerous, a project woman (from a male standpoint). Some men seek emotionally stable women, if you want that kind of man (and emotionally stable one too), you nmust be that kind of woman (and vice versa), or one will never "see" them...which might explain (in part) why so many people (male and female) end up in bad "sitches" .

I may comment more later on what you said about choices, you seem to have ignored my point...which was life is all about choices, and if you want a man in it, you need to spend the time to do that right (which means less time on other stuff), and you must be willing to change... it is irrational to find or expect anyone to accept all your habits and activities just as they are....unless you expect to do the same in return, and I think you are smart enuf to see the problem with that.

btw, I think you are making the right choice to focus on yourself, not date ect until fully at peace with the divorce (doesn't mean you can't hang out and such, just be careful to avoid anything that "feels" like a date. I am not so sure you should give up that longing either, it sounds like who you are...a buyer at heart...just get smarter deja.

I disagree with your assessment. I have kept my head together through all of this, and come out better than I was before we split up. My friends are all amazed that I've coped as well as I have through all this. Better than my H has, and he's the one who was supposedly emotionally prepared for this. I may not know what I'm "doing" with respect to a new relationship - but so what? I get the feeling you are measuring everything in terms of attitudes towards relationships. I understand that's a big focus for you right now, but it isn't for me. Not knowing if I want another relationship, or what I would want from it, does not mean I'm emotionally unstable or that I don't know what I'm doing.

I'm not sure men DO want emotional stable women - quite frankly that's not been my experience (or my observation with the men I know). I've usually worked predominantly with men, as I've generally had fairly high level positions where women are in the minority. I've had many male friends over the years who have confided in me, and I think many of them are threatened by women who may be stronger than they are.

I also don't see myself as a project person or emotionally dangerous, as I understand those things.

You know, I used to be a trusting person - and believed people were honest and basically good. I thought people represented themselves as they were, rather than as they wanted to be. I've been duped by dysfunctional people as a result, who were/are good at presenting the facade they want people to see. I didn't (and still don't) know enough about dysfunction to feel qualified to recognize all the warning signs - though I'm getting better at it. But that doesn't make me unstable or not knowing what I'm doing.