I've spent the past few days calming down -- my spirit, my body, my mind and I'm still trying figure out what is right for me. I find I still don't know.

These were some thoughts I floated by people this morning and now I'm bringing it out to MB because I just don't know what I'm doing! :-)

bOb pure* responded:
and aussiewife
Sal

I appreciate these responses so much. I am not understanding what I am or I am not supposed to be doing with regard to plan A and so I feel I'm probably not doing it right/efficiently however... Clarity is eluding me.

Is this about making it easy for Phil to return to me? Making myself a desirable welcoming destination? Well, let's say there is a chance of that (and I don't know if there is, but let's say), what are those steps for me...? No clue.

That is why I'm not sure if I really have been doing plan A despite my efforts and energy expenditure and sincere attempts to do a plan A. Does that make sense? I am saying I don't know what I am doing. And because I don't know what I am doing, it would seem that plan B is also not appropriate. I think bOb - you and I agree on that... I didn't take that as a 2x4...

So when I say let it go. I guess I am just saying -- I would let it all go. No plan A or B. It's not from lazyness or unwillingness. It's not from fear of being hurt. I still love Phil and want him and the opportunity to build a new life with him. I simply have no idea of how to proceed with either plan...

thanks to a very kind FWS on the boards I have been given a gift of forgiveness for the OW that I hadn't had in me... I didn't know if I could feel that for the OW. Now I know. It has lightened my burden considerably and that helps with detachment.

The new lack of harassment by phone and the lack of stress about losing the house is making a difference in how I appreciate Phil as well. I feel better about him. Enough so I can again ask God to take my love for Phil and see that he gets it because I don't seem able to give it to Phil myself.

And that is what brings me to the letting go... which feels right but like I said, these past few weeks I've noticed that every time something has felt right, it has been the exact opposite! :-)
I don't really feel like I've done a real Plan A. It seems the more I do, the less I think I really am doing that is Plan A... Sorry for the seeming recursion in that sentence but I don't know any other way to say it.

I don't know how to show Phil that I love him. I don't understand how I can seem like a bright and shining beacon when all Phil smells is albatross. I think WAT was right and I really may be the most naive creature! Just as soon as I think I might be getting it, I realize I really don't still...

Last week I gained a lot insight and strength from things said in the panic thread and Phil and I discussed a lot of difficult things during our two hour post-movie talk. I was able to set some boundaries or at least make some needed requests. Phil was able to turn the alien/robot guy off and be himself for most of that talking time.

Phil has sent e-mail since then, but hasn't called and I haven't called him. I haven't responded to his last e-mail. I don't know what to say. My inclination was to invite him to go skydiving with me next weekend but I held back, thinking maybe I should wait for him to approach me. It's not my usual way of dealing, in the past I would have just invited him and not thought twice about it. But this time I let it go...

So there it is. A lot of I don't know... :-) and please don't think I am disregarding any wisdom, I think it's more like I think I am not really understanding the wisdom...


Sally

OK Sal, help me catch up as I have not diligently followed your posts.

Please tell me if I have this right:

You're still "separated" and you've done Plan A, but alas, like all of us, it may not have been perfect. You've communicated your desries to Phil about reconciling and you've demonstrated your Plan A improvements to the extent you can. Despite your stated desires, understanding, and forgiveness, Phil is ambivalent about restoring your relationship in favor of OW. You're not married to this guy and you have no children with him.

What did I get wrong?

WAT

WAT, Hi. You got it all right with two exceptions/ variations:

1. Me demonstrating Plan A improvements -- I haven't demonstrated to the fullest extent of what's available to me. I can do more over time: new job, lighter, happier, forgiving etc. but I am still clueless about how even to demonstrate how and when or if?

2. Phil isn't ambivalent. He does not want to restore our relationship. He insists that A with OW is over. Regardless, at this point in time, he said the following: He does not want to restore our relationship. He doesn't want to return to what we had. Maybe in the future he might, but not now.

Sal

As for demonstrating, have you demonstrated improvements regarding things he complained about - or excuses he used to have an affair or to not work on your relationship? It's not always possible for a Plan A'er to demonstrate all improvements and some things cannot be demonstrated without an extended opportunity.

Do you believe the affair is over with OW? If so, does he have another romantic interest that you know of?

WAT

The affair is NOT over. They see each other at the office. They meet outside the office. They call each other on the phone and send e-mail. They lie. She is staying with her husband in hopes of I don't know what. Phil would appear to be waiting. He doesn't have any other romantic interests.

I've been able to demonstrate a couple of things that he need improving from our relationship:

1. He has been able to observe me demonstrating a willingness to listen ONLY, and to not retort, argue, judge or otherwise be disrespectful when we have talked by e-mail, phone or in person. Even regarding A, I have not said/implied anything judgmental about him or her.

2. He has observed that I am willing to specifically request things that are important to me and they have not been the things he thought were or would be important to me. In contrast he has been able to observe that I am relinquishing some ideas and tangibles that he did not like.

3. He has observed my willingness to love him despite the problems. He had said to a friend (post split) that he had always doubted my love for him. Last week he wanted to know why I loved him instead of running from him when he acted like the Angry Robot Guy. I explained myself well enough I think, so that he understood me and he genuinely seemed to want that answer.

4. He has observed that I am willing to keep my mouth shut to protect him from my own hurts and nasties during this mess. We talked about it - how we each worry more for each other than we do for ourselves. Previously, I shared my trivial hurts and grievances (at the behest of my shrink) and that made Phil feel awful, but he never told me 'til it was too late...

5. He has observed that I make an effort to look nice whenever he sees me and that our (his words) home always looks very nice.

They aren't observances that have happened frequently, but awareness is there and has been acknowledged. Phil has still expressed interest in counseling but I'm not sure to what end still...

He has expressed the wish to be completely free from any/all financial obligations to me so that he won't have to think about me any more because I'm making him. Usually he follows those statements by saying then if we get together it will be because we want to.

We discussed that one a bit last week in that two hour talk too. I stood up for myself and it was OK. Basically pointed out that I don't MAKE him do anything. I don't make him think about me and I don't make him care and maybe he will stop doing those things when he doesn't have a mortgage on my house but we'll have to see. (More was said of course but this post is getting long...)

It was a very positive two hours. Afterward I felt better than I had in a long time. It was very clear that none of this really had anything to do with me or OW. That was powerful and healing for me. It was also clear that Phil was beginning to (at least that night) feel upset about his behavior - the lying. The lack of caring and loving for me. His lack of perspective...

All of that made me feel more patient and more calm.

Sally

I vote for Plan B.

You've met my criteria: living apart, enough Plan A, ongoing affair.

The trouble for you is that there is no Plan D. Also, the benefit for you is that there is no Plan D - other than any further dissolving of jointly held assets. Plan B can be your Plan D if he maintains his course.

Sal, you're young and have no children with this creep and you have an easy way out. I admire your perseverance to try to salvage this and if you choose not to go any further, you can hold your head high and go forwrd with no regrets that you didn't give it your best shot. That said, you have nothing to lose with Plan B and you have the option of making it Plan D.

WAT

Thank you. I have a clear understanding of your opinion. You're succinct too! :-)

In Phil's defense, I will say, the behavior is crap, but he is struggling, is not as happy with his choices as he might have seemed, he is in tremendous pain over our relationship (and not because of OW or anything else but him and his pain, guilt, loneliness, torment etc.), and he isn't a creep.

Hence my lack of anger. I don't feel sorry for him either, because I just don't feel all that bad that he is experiencing some sadness since he IS having an A and the whole thing has turned my life upside down. Still, he is a good man and he is lost. As lost as I've been and almost for the same reasons.

Funny how he can be the person doing the A and leaving but we both have similar problems with trust? Funny strange and absurd. Neither of us are comfortable trusting ourselves. With regard to each other we feel paranoid, desperately unhappy and like we can't trust, despite knowing - truly knowing the core of who the other is.

Phil told me how he never wanted me to hurt and he didn't want me to suffer. He wanted me to tell him I would be OK and let him out of his guilt. And when I told him I would have trouble healing and trusting without his help he was surprised. I was surprised when then he opened up to me even somewhat about the A. He could have kept lying but he told me some of the truth...

I would meet him more than halfway if he wanted me to and I'd stretch further than that if he NEEDED me to -- is that plan A then? WAT and other frustrated people in the know, I am begging your forgiveness for the questions but please know, I am not acting dense -- I AM DENSE. :-)

I am capable of stretching beyond what I normally would do: just love him and be here for him without being in any contact with him. Is that part of plan B and then I add a letter? And is there anything for me to lose by jumping at plan B prematurely? Anything to gain by continuing plan A?

Sal

Sally

I think what puzzles many of us is that WEwould perhaps not have fought so hard nor endured such fog and hurt if we were not married and had no kids.

We may even think it a serendipitous thing to catch out fiancee as a cheatin' skank before committing to marrying them.

Reading WATs stuff here and some of your older posts, the dynamics are definitely different in your sit than in a married couple.

So maybe you need a custom plan ?

Hi bOb,

Could be... I am not dissatisfied with what I am getting from trying to work plan A. Just the opposite.

And I'm not at all sad -- there is no sadness in these posts the past few days. I am more comfortable in my skin and with Phil than I have been in a long time. It was the SEEING the truth in his body, HEARing and observing - it's not conjecture on my part -- there is something wrong in him.

Our relationship is still paining him beyond belief even when his supposed source of pain - ME - is removed he continues to suffer.

Our good friend Ed wrote Phil a very long, very candid letter. Phil told me how angry he was when he read it. He is still angry. Ed has an opinion (among others) that Phil's A w/OW only reflects the joy and pain and love he has with me - nothing more. Bold words, but they make some sense and I think not just because I wish them to. You know? There does seem to be A LOT of transferrence.

Phil will figure it out or he won't. I can keep being inviting as best as I am able, or, I can stay away and be inviting on his terms, or I can cease all contact... Dunno! I'm not rushing this. I feel like I can take my time and think it through without worry.

Something must have gotten through to Phil because the phone harassment really seems to have stopped! So what can I take away from that? That by some strange coincidence whoever was calling stopped? or that Phil stopped or that he got his lover to stop? I don't like to make guesses. I like to work with fact, but it's a bit much to ignore...

Thank you, all of you - because some wrote to me privately - for helping me think it through. Sorry if the tone didn't read right. :-) I'm in an OK place and that was why I wanted to examine this -- BECAUSE I'm strong enough to look carefully and calmly! :-)

Who knows where I'll be tomorrow?!
Sally

as a wise woman told me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

one day at a time

((HUGS))

Ya know, Sal, Plan B is always entered with hopes that reconciliation will occur. Going to Plan B does not mean you're giving up.

Can reconciliation occur without Plan B? Of course! But if this guy has as much potential as you believe, Plan B will not fail you and if anything will, it'll show him you require more than just lip service.

He's a fence sitter at best. Knock him off else he'll sit up there until you REALLY are ready to give up on him.

WAT

I've been preparing myself for eventual plan B... Been packing up Phil's things. He left a lot here. He took his golf clubs, ALL of his papers and some clothing. The rest is STILL here... Toiletries, books, clothes, shoes, you name it.

So as I've been packing, I've been thinking about how I am still upset about Phil lying to his family and misleading them about my mental state and so on. I have been considering calling them and trying to talk again. Not to condemn Phil, which I didn't last time either, but to at least try to have them hear me and hear the following:
[list]
1. I am not a liar.
......I have never lied to them or to Phil. I have never misled them in any way.

2. I am not unstable, imbalanced, or crazy
......I was very upset when we last spoke after I found out about the A. That doesn't mean I was or am insane. It meant I was upset about finding out Phil had been cheating and lying to me.

3. I am not dangerous.
......I would never harm Phil or his family. I was very sorry that they were so upset by my phone call. My intent was not to hurt them or anger them in any way. I was concerned for myself and for Phil and for Phil's career, since OW is a co-worker and subordinate to Phil.

4. I am not a stalker. I was not stalking Phil when I saw him with OW.
......I realize that as Phil's parents they may be upset with me for any reason because they love their son, but they should know that Phil and I had been seeing each other steadily for several weeks after he told me he couldn't be without contact from me. Phil and I were together for 8 years. I was visiting him, not stalking him when I saw him together with OW. I had the opportunity to make a scene. I was so shocked that I didn't know what to do so I just went home and thought about it.

5. I was upset when we last spoke a month and a half ago, but that doesn't mean I'm crazy -- it meant I was upset.
......When I confronted Phil, before calling his parents, he insisted that I was crazy. He insisted that he wasn't seeing anyone. When I asked him about the woman I saw him with, HE told me she was a coworker. When I asked him if he was in love with her, HE told me he might be and that it was none of my business and then he told me I was crazy some more. I was upset to have heard this but it didn't make me insane. It made me confused and very sad.

6. When Phil confessed the truth about the A w married OW April 17, he asked my forgiveness and also told me he would tell you the truth about misleading parents and family and friends. I understand that he didn't do this. We also talked about getting counseling together April 17 and several times since then. Phil assures me that the A is over although he still gets together with OW and they are still intimate. [/list}
I want my relationship with parents and family to be as unsullied as possible. I did not harm Phil. His A is doing that. I did not seek to make his family unhappy and I think they should make up their own minds with all of the info.

I'm not sure I have anything to lose other than the whole house thing... right now, I'm keeping the house. I suppose Phil could always change his mind again whether I try to talk with his family or not. :-(

I'm still having a hard time accepting that Phil tells all of these lies about me and they stand. It's eating at me that his fmaily is willing to think that I made the whole thing up and that I am just a silly woman who (after being engaged to be married for many years!) is irrational and unwilling to accept reality blah blah blah.

I'm not the one lying to them.

Thoughts?
Sally

Sal - I really understand your desire to set things straight with his family. I was faced with the same sort of lies to my WS's family.

No matter what you do, they will likely side with Phil.

I recommend that you not try to win them over because based on your prior description of the dynamics, you will not be successful. Why create more frustration for yourself?

An option is to send them a copy of your Plan B letter, should you decide to go to Plan B. Then let them approach you. If they don't you know where they stand - in the gutter with Phil.

But another way to look at it is (always trying to find opportunities in failure) that trying to win them over, but failing, will make it easier for you to move on, perhaps. Confirmation that this family was not a good match for you anyway.

I understand your reluctance to move on. I've been there, with higher stakes. I eventually discovered a whole new world and I am now happy with a bright future. Do not think for an instance that you won't accomplish the same.

WAT

Sally,

I am sorry you are having such a hard time with this.

I do agree very much with WAT.

Let it go. All the "he said/did, she said/did" crap is just that, crap. It has no real meaning.

Even if you had become a little crazy (not saying you did), SO WHAT. Who hasn't become unstable at certain times, especially when dealing with such a monumental hurt/betrayal/loss. I would be a little suspect of someone who didn't become unglued every now and then.

If they cannot see past all the bullcrap that goes on in matters of the heart, or the possiblity of the loss of a family, or even just the day to day crap of life than they are just not worth grieving over.

Don't worry what they think. It really matters not. All you need to know is that they are not there for you, so they are inconsequential. Blow them off.

There is a verse in one of my favorite songs which goes something like this -

"And in the book of life,
once a page is read,
all but love is dead.
This is my belief"

Who you are is not tied up in the "he said/she said" drama's.

Try not to dwell on his family. They simply are not worth it, obviously.