I am working on a project to derive MB principles from Scripture. I believe that MB is a sound way of approaching marriage and establishing a good relationship, but I want to be promoting more than that, I want to be promoting Truth.

So if anybody is interested in this, please feel free to dump your thoughts here, or email 'em, or AIM me, or whatever. I'd like to get something concrete put together in a few weeks at the most.

Of course, if you've seen this done anywhere else, please point me in the right direction, Googling for it didn't get me what I was looking for.

I know that lots of churches use MB in both M and preM counseling, and there's nothing wrong with that in and of itself as long as it's truth. Or rather Truth. And I am not personally aware of that having been done. On the surface, it seems sound. I'd like to dig a bit more into it from a theological perspective.

Anybody else interested?

Interesting. What do is the "project" for or what do you intend to do with it?

Here are some texts (there are many) on the subject of Christian marriage and the roles of husbands and wives.

“Magnificent Marriage”, by Gordon MacDonald
“Rebuilding Your Broken World”, by Gordon MacDonald
“The God Who Hears”, by W. Bingham Hunter
“Intended for Pleasure”, by Ed Wheat, M.D. and Gaye Wheat
“Idols Of The Heart, Learning to Long for God Alone”, by Elyse Fitzpatrick
“Marriage, Whose Dream?”, by Paul David Tripp
“Thankfulness Even When It Hurts”, by Susan Lutz

Mortarman also has a current thread where he is listing biblical principles for the roles of husbands and wives. You can find the thread on the GQ II forum.

It all begins with the simplest of explanations and commands from Christ; "If you love me, obey my commands."
"I came not to be served, but to serve." "If a brother sins against you and comes to you and repents, forgive him. How many times should I forgive him, seven times? I say to you not seven times but seventy times seven times." Forgiveness as God forgives us is the key to living with sinners (as we all are sinners). As Christ is our bridegroom, we should fulfill that role in our marriage as Christ did, and continues to do, for His bride.

God bless and good luck with your project.

Interesting project. I've thought along the same line before.

I really do think you can find some basic biblical concepts woven through them. (Allthough, you might have trouble making a scriptural case for "Attractive Spouse" needs. :-)

I think the whole "do unto others as you would want done to you" applies. Also the whole concept of 'serving others' or 'prefering others above yourself' fit.

"loving others...denying self...etc"

Paul's command for husbands to 'love their wives as Christ loved the Church" can speak volumes...especially when you read of him washing their feet with a servant's heart..."I didn't come to be served, but TO serve".

"Let not our love be in word, but in action"...

Those are just a few off the top of my head.

Mainly for my own edification, although I'm certainly not against posting it or making it available.

But as a Christian navigating the worldly waters, there is a danger in applying "secular" solutions to marriage between believers. And it is not immediately clear to me that the H's are believers. So there then remains the danger of encouraging something that is not founded in Biblical Truth.

I know a lot of churches teach MB as part of counseling or pre-M counseling, but churches have been deceived before and taught untruth.

Don't get me wrong, I think MB is the best thing going, but there is still responsibility on the part of the believer, especially when encouraging others to apply something to their lives.

So I'm not really looking for resources on Christians and marriage, my bookstore is full of 'em. I'm looking at specifically MB.

Okay. So what MB principles in particular are you looking at or are you thinking are not, or may not be, in accord with biblical principles? I need some direction from you to focus comments on specific areas.

Emotional Needs? God created us with emotions and with the need for a male/female relationship. Marriage between a man and a woman was instituted by God and proclaimed "very good."

Openness and Honesty?
Radical Honesty?
Policy of Joint Agreement?
Taker versus Giver?

Direction! Please!!

POJA is probably the one that I haven't gotten a handle on wrt to Scriptural soundness at all.

2 becoming one flesh probably applies a body can't go two different directions at the same time. So there has to be agreement as to which direction the body's going to take. The enthusiastic part tho' I'm not so sure about. And on the other hand, the 2nd part of POJA as respects doing nothing if there is no agreement doesn't jump out at me.

No man can serve two masters, while Biblically referring to God and the Enemy and who the individual is going to allow as mastery of ones life. A marriage can't serve two masters with two individuals fighting for control of which way it's heading. But again, how to derive "enthusiastic agreement".

A potential misapplication of Mat 18:19 might also apply to POJA. Actually, for believers, Mat 18:19 is probably pretty close to POJA. But for the non-believer, it doesn't work at all. Of course, in my specific case, application to believers is sufficient.

Thoughts?

Jaye, it sounds to me as though you need to spend some time on what Scripture has to say about the "roles" of husbands and wives. I believe that will answer most of the questions, if not all, that you posed.


Let's just take POJA briefly.

So there has to be agreement as to which direction the body's going to take. The enthusiastic part tho' I'm not so sure about. And on the other hand, the 2nd part of POJA as respects doing nothing if there is no agreement doesn't jump out at me.

No, there is no "agreement" beyond fulfilling our roles as commanded by God. A husband is to love and cherish and protect his wife and a wife is to honor, respect, and obey her husband as long as he is "in concert" with God and not "commanding her" to commit a sin.

"Enthusiastic" comes from love and trust and submission on the part of both spouses. Love and trust are probably easy for us to understand. Submission on the other hand, is "giving up" our "right" to place ourselves ahead of God or each other. If we both follow God in humble submission to His will, enthusiastic agreement between a husband and wife is easy to attain.

Remember, for Christians, it is God who is always "in control." For us to wrest control away from God is both foolish and dangerous, because God WILL allow us that "freedom of choice." Husbands ARE the "head of the household," just as Christ is the head of the church. It is a role of service, not fiat.

God bless.

I think Jaye's point is that she knows what the Bible says, now how does that measure up to what MB Principles say? Sure, enthusiastic agreement is easy if both are following God's word or both aren't. Either way, Harleys seem to think as long as you agree, it doesn't matter which way they follow. Just agree to go one way. Unless I am missing Jaye's point too. I know that the Harleys books are sometimes studied in churches, but I dont' know that I agree with everything they say from a Biblical standpoint either.

FHE.

I don't think we're on the same page as to the purpose. I don't disagree with you at all in your statement. But as a practical matter, and in my own marriage, in order to help me be a good H, it's good to have guidelines to follow. As I grow and mature, I find that I have a deeper understanding of what God's requirements are, and I rely less on man's interpretation of what God's word says. But people have to start somewhere.

So as a enormously contrived example, let's say a MB principle was that we had to commit one act of adultery each week. Well, that directly conflicts with Scripture, so I couldn't say to somebody, "follow the MB principles", because I have a conflict with 'em.

So as a guideline to follow, with respect to daily living, and being obedient to the Word, does MB as a collection of principles violate Scripture. If I did everything MB said exactly, would I be committing sin. Or if I suggested to somebody else that they apply MB, would I be encouraging them to sin.

Does that make more sense?

Doesn't it seem, adgirl48, that you're going in a little different direction from Jaye's first post?

No one is saying "agree with everything the Harley's say" regardless of what Scripture says. It's actually the reverse for Christians. But there is also something to consider that Christ said, that I think has bearing on this discussion and on a website that is designed to try to help ALL marriages, not just Christian marriages. The Scripture I have in mind is Mark 9:38-41.

No, Jaye, it makes little sense to me.

Your "example" of MB telling someone to commit adultery is a "red herring." That is NOT what MB says and isn't even in the realm of "hypothetical." That's almost the same thing as saying "if the Bible taught commit adultery at least once a week" would we follow the Bible. It's not going to happen.

I guess the best way I can think of to answer your question is to post another question to you...

What HARM could befall a marriage if the MB principles are employed?

I'm beginning to have a much better understanding of Tony's frustration in the other thread. Sheesh.

Take POJA. POJA says agree and go forth, or disagree and do nothing. But there's nothing that I can find that says a married couple has to agree on anything. With a couple exceptions. It also calls for submission one to the other, which flies in the face of POJA. Doing nothing as the POJA says, is not the same as submitting. Therefore, there is some conflict. If you're one of the "Man's in charge, and women must do everything he says" believers, then POJA doesn't stand up at all, since the decision is left essentially entirely to the man. Can't see that one working either. Does it do any harm? Well, if individuals in the relationship are refusing to submit to each other because of what POJA says, then, yeah, I'd say there's harm.

In terms of principles, there are lots of things that could be said to a couple that don't cause harm, but aren't helpful or Scriptural either. One MB principle is that all married couples should wear matching clothing. Not Biblical, no obvious harm, but serves no useful purpose.

I suppose the argument could be made that if what you're recommending isn't Scriptural, then it's doing harm just because of that, but then you'd need to demonstrate that MB was Scriptural, rather than hoping it is on the basis of no obvious harm. WHich brings me back to where I started.

I thought submitting to one another and POJA were basically saying the same thing. You agree to go with the other person's view.

uh huh. You keep bringing up examples that are "hypothetical" and are NOT part of MB principles (like wearing matching clothing) and you want to get frustrated because someone else "calls you" on it or asks for clarification of what you are trying to say?

I can not help your emtional reacions anymore than I can help Tony's.

Just WHAT is your "beef" with MB? It CAN'T be following Scripture because you are using "false" statements that you are attributing to MB.




MB says nothing of the sort in the overgeneralized manner in which you are trying to paint the idea of POJA.

What POJA says is that with respect to MAJOR decisions that can affect both of you, and the marriage, the "safest" route is to have "joint agreement" or to NOT do it based solely on selfish desires or self-gratification NO MATTER WHAT NEGATIVE IMPACT it might have on your spouse or the marriage.

WOULD Jesus Christ do something out of sinful self-interest if it mean causing harm to you? Not likely. YOU, as Jesus Christ's "stand-in" in your marriage, likewise need to lead by acting as Christ would. That entails making decisions that are in concert with biblical principles and also gives the wife the RIGHT and RESPONSIBILITY to NOT follow you, or agree to what you want, IF you are going in a direction contrary to God's word or based solely on selfish motives.




Of course the potential for some conflict is always there. We live in a fallen world and in a fallen body. We struggle against sin all our lives. But you DON'T seem to understand what "godly submission" is all about. There is NOTHING wrong with submission to one another when what we are wanting to do is in concert with God. But God does NOT require submission as a tacit "approval" of a sinful request. The issue, again, is that our marriages are to mirror Christ's marriage with the Church.

This idea of accusing me of being a "whatever a man wants, the man gets" sort thing is so far from being the truth that it's laughable. This is the sort of statement that tells me you don't understand biblical submission and you don't understand POJA.



Look, Jaye, as far as I am concerned, a Christian who will live by Scripture does not need MB. But a whole lot of Christians haven't even READ the Scriptures, let alone studied the various teachings and learned HOW to do what God commands. There is far more "harm" done to marriages by NOT obeying God's commands in Scripture than will ever be done by following, or not following, a Policy of Joint Agreement.

Have you read the passage in Mark 9:38-41 that I referenced?



Huh? Where does MB have a PRINCIPLE that couples should dress alike? It IS a fact that some couples do tend to dress similarly, act similarly, etc. as they become more more like "one flesh." But how does that become a "principle" of MB?



No it doesn't "bring you back to where you've started." It merely brings us to an understanding that you've been arguing in circles.

Here is what you said as the "premise" of your discussion:

"I am working on a project to derive MB principles from Scripture. I believe that MB is a sound way of approaching marriage and establishing a good relationship, but I want to be promoting more than that, I want to be promoting Truth.

So if anybody is interested in this, please feel free to dump your thoughts here, or email 'em, or AIM me, or whatever. I'd like to get something concrete put together in a few weeks at the most.

Of course, if you've seen this done anywhere else, please point me in the right direction, Googling for it didn't get me what I was looking for.

I know that lots of churches use MB in both M and preM counseling, and there's nothing wrong with that in and of itself as long as it's truth. Or rather Truth. And I am not personally aware of that having been done. On the surface, it seems sound. I'd like to dig a bit more into it from a theological perspective."

You give "tacit" approval to MB, but then you hypothesize that following MB principles might in some way violate God's commands. IF that were true, I, and most Christians, would abandon MB immediately because "thou shalt have no other gods before me."

You then proceeded in a subsequent post to "clarify" the intent of your inquiry about MB:

"Mainly for my own edification, although I'm certainly not against posting it or making it available.

But as a Christian navigating the worldly waters, there is a danger in applying "secular" solutions to marriage between believers. And it is not immediately clear to me that the H's are believers. So there then remains the danger of encouraging something that is not founded in Biblical Truth.

I know a lot of churches teach MB as part of counseling or pre-M counseling, but churches have been deceived before and taught untruth."

So "it is not immediately clear to you that the H's are believers," is the REAL foundation of your inquiry. They ARE stated as believers and I've seen nothing to dispel that claim. But I do think you might be falling into the same "self-righteous" trap that the apostles did in the Mark reference I gave you. Specifically, that passage has Jesus answering his disciples concerns about others doing things in Christ's name who are not "one of their specific" clique (one of the twelve).


Mark 9:38 (KJV)

38And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

Mark 9:39 (KJV)

39But Jesus said, [color:"red"]Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.[/color]

Mark 9:40 (KJV)

40[color:"red"]For he that is not against us is on our part.[/color]

Mark 9:41 (KJV)

41[color:"red"]For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.[/color]

So it would seem, Jaye, that it is incumbent upon you to list the "principles" that you think might be contrary to Scripture and WHY you think they might be contrary. We can then examine and discuss each one to see how it is "similar to" or "in opposition to" a given Scriptural principle.

That would be following clear biblical principle to examine things to see if they are "of God" or "of the devil."

Perhaps that approach will more quickly get your "project" on the track you are hoping for.

God bless.