I know I should stop trying to analyze everything - but it's what I do.

I've talked to a few guys I'm friends with, and one of the things that keeps coming up is that they judge whether or not a woman is someone they'd like to date by the presence or absence of immediate physical attraction. If they don't have that immediate physical attraction, getting to know her better as a friend is highly unlikely to change that - she's a friend and that's all she'll ever be.

I'm not unattractive, but I'm definitely battling a weight problem which is complicated by a couple of minor health problems - so I'm not confident of my physical attractiveness to men... I think I might be one of those women who "has a pretty face" - frustrating to me now, because once upon a time I had a pretty decent body to go with it, and even if I was able to start today, I wouldn't be able to get close to "repossessing" that body for well over a year. I do have a great personality, love to have fun, love to laugh, love to talk and most of all, love to listen. I have lots of fairly close male friends who appreciate these characteristics.

So my question for this post is how do YOU judge if a woman is someone you'd like to get to know better? I do understand that physical attractiveness is very important, but if you initially are not particularly attracted to a woman (and not repulsed by her), but enjoy being in her company in other respects, do you think there is a chance that you might find her more attractive as you get to know her better?

I'm not going to speak for all women here, but I know that it can and does happen for me that way. I have actually gone from thinking that a particular guy was a real jacka** and not physically attractive to me at all, to falling for him very hard after I really got to know him (we are very close friends now). That's an extreme, probably, but it really did happen to me.

T

I would be lying to say that physical attraction doesn't play a part in what I'm looking for in a woman.

Weight is a touchy issue. A few extra pounds doesn't bother me. A woman who is 63" tall and weighs as much as I do (about 225, I'm 5'11" tall, with a 50 inch chest and 36" waist, so an atheletic build) will bother me.

I don't expect a late 30 something or early 40 something to not have stretch marks and some wrinkles and some hair dye. I do expect that gravity will have some effect on the body of a woman who has carried a couple of children to term. I do like to see a pretty face, nice smile and I'm a sucker for beautiful eyes.

I don't look for perfection, but do look for someone who takes care of herself. I can't expect perfection. I have a series of scars on my chest and abdomen from two cancer surgeries, I have all my hair I was born with, but half of it has moved from my head to my chest, arms, legs and strangly in my ears, LOL.

When I read what you wrote the first thing that came to me was why not take that year to get into shape and just work with your network of friends. If you get dates, great, if not, you are still working on yourself, exploring your interests, and doing a makeover on more than just your body. A whole person makeover.

Just my $0.02

T

I do plan on getting into shape. I'm watching what I eat, and I was planning to start exercising after work this week ... unfortunately, I need, instead, to pack 15 years of stuff from my apartment and move by the end of June.

I don't think I need a whole person makeover exactly - I do need to get into better shape.

And not that I'm planning to get into better shape for anybody but myself, really, but how would that affect your view of someone who you did not previously find physically attractive ... if they started looking better? Or, would that woman be forever relegated to the "just friends" category?

It seems very unfair at times, but also very true that a lot of men won't even ask you out if you are just a few pounds overweight. Some men want perfection.....they also like the younger women, which is disappointing....since I can't help that I'm 46....with 3 teenagers!!!
I'm not that bad looking, only have a few wrinkles....my kids are almost out of the house...only about 5 pounds overweight.
Really, I think I'm a pretty good deal for someone. You know, younger women usually have younger kids....
I think I'll check out the older women thread:)
KK

Terri and KK,

I don't really know how to answer this except for telling a very short story...

As I mentioned in another thread, all my LTR have been with very tall, very thin, blonde haired, blue eyed women. It is just what I am attracted too....

However....

There is one heavy woman, I mean heavy, not 5 lbs, not 50lbs, but probably 100lbs. overweight...the exact opposite of what I usually go for. Dark haired, dark eyes, short, and lets face it...fat. If she wasn't happily married to a good friend of mine, I would be all over her.

Why? Because she "Sparkles".

I can't think of a better way to put it, she just sparkles.

So I guess if a dedicated super model thin lover with a blonde, blue eyed fetish can be attracted to this woman...hmmmmm...

The answer must be it has more to do with the total package than just the wrapper...

Just my 2 cents

RebornMan

I am 45, no kids. Most people tell me I don't look anywhere near my age - almost everyone I talk to guesses at least 10 years younger. When I go OUT, I take a great deal of care how I look - I put on makeup, do my hair and dress nicely. I haven't been going out that much recently because I've been working a lot and haven't got the energy, but about a year ago, I was out with a group of friends dancing, and a guy came up to me and told me that he loved the way I dance... he actually came up and told me a second time as well.

I am not unattractive in any way but the weight. And what truly bothers me is that some of the guys that would turn their noses up at me because of my weight are not prizes themselves in any way...

But my question is not really about ME or about WHAT men might look at - it's about whether or not men do in fact put women into 3 categories: 1)"Definites", 2)"not even if she were the last woman on earth", and 3)"Maybe, if there are no Definites around" AND about whether or not, if a woman ends up in pile number 2 or 3, there would be any chance she'd ever be reconsidered for pile number 1 if circumstances were different...

T

Reborn Man, you have, in my eyes, redeemed men everywhere...

I don't know if I "sparkle" as I don't know exactly what that means to you... but I know I shine!

T

I really don't know.

I could give the answer you want to hear and say, I might take a second look. But honestly, I think it will differ for every man.

I would simply work on being yourself, knowing yourself and liking yourself. If you wanna lose weight and get into shape, doing that for yourself is the best reason.

What I meant by whole person makeover was looking at yourself physically, spirtually, emotionally, and mentally and deciding what you like and what you want to improve.

Be who you want to be, then you will be attractive to the man you want to have.

Besides, if you love yourself you will have that sparkle that was mentioned before.

T

Noy you get my .02 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We men do tend to make an instinctual decison (would I or would I not) decision about whether or not we'd like to be "intimate" with a woman we have just met.

That being said, I have found MANY different types of women that are attractive...thin, curvy, busty, not busty, all different hair/eye colors, different ethnicities..you name it.

My only real requirement (from the strictly physical standpoint) is that the lady takes care of herself (not fat). That begs the question...what does fat mean? It varies from guy to guy...some like them "curvier" than others.

We ALL have our flaws...try not to get bogged down in the minutae. We aren't in our 20's anymore!

BWT...I can REALLY relate to the "ear hair" comment! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

As long as you aren't morbidly obese and you are confident of yourself and have that "sparkle in your eyes", most men will seek you out.

I can guarantee it...

WNB

Well Thanks Terri, I appreciate that comment.

My brother's have lovingly referred to my choice of women as "Sticks with T*ts" as they like the fuller, more curvy types.....lol

I'll tell you what sparkle is to me...

Fun, vivacious, makes you feel good to be around, confident but not cocky or bull-headed, looks right in you when you talk, and you feel like nobody else exists in that moment.

When that happens it's like opium no matter what they look like.

Not a very good description but the best I can do.

So I would say yes, you can go from pile 3 to pile 1 for some men. You know a lot of my fellow men don't look much deeper than the mascara because they aren't much deeper than a rain puddle. That goes for women too though and you can't fight it. I can't "force" a woman to like a my looks if she goes for skaterboy type or skinny Ashton Kucher type, heck I lift weights so I am a big boy 6' 235lbs, shaved head and goatee, some women don't like that look. So I just move along...no biggie.

Others know what they want and will seek the same package over and over till the insides match the outsides...I know because that is exactly what I did for too many years.

Grow, live, and learn they say.

RebornMan

Great Question Terri:

There have been several excellent answers given. I agree with those who speak of the 'entire being' of a person, particularly those of us past 35 or so. I (respectfully) call it "the package", which means that all aspects of a person are taken into consideration. (Ex: A woman who may be a touch "curvy" but has a great outlook and personality will be more desirable than say a slender woman who is arrogant or pushy.) A lot also depends on a man's experience. If his ex-wife was abusive, disrespectful, conceited - and had a movie-star figure; he will likely be "turned off" by all women with good figures - at least for a while. That's human nature.

Like some mention above; each of us should be objectively candid about all aspects of ourselves. Not only physical appearance, but also how our personality is perceived, how gracious we are, how compassionate we are and so on. And once we honestly determine those aspects, we then decide what is important to us. (And I am extremely firm in my belief that everyone will make a change; only if it's important enough for them to do so.) If I say to myself: "Boy, I could stand to lose 10 lbs." - then I may or may not lose the weight. However if I conclude: "I am motivated to lose 10 lbs no matter what"; then you can be guaranteed it's going to happen - and happen quickly. It's really about desire and motivation. For WS's out there, consider the motivation that you showed in making your A happen. You did this - because it was important for you to make it happen, no matter the consequence! Not because of any other reason or excuse. You convinced yourself to cross that line out of pure desire. Now, consider only the 'motivation' (not the act) and plug that motivation into something that you desire. (Ex: To Lose 10 lbs.) My guarantee is that if you show the same level of 'motivation and dedication' to losing the 10 lbs that you did to consummating the A; the weight would be gone in no time.

Lastly - to you gals who are Mom's. There is no doubt that you have the tougher task of recovering and/or keeping your shape after childbirth. That is one of life's "unfair" realities. Of course, we men have to deal with what 6-packs really do to our abs, so perhaps we're even! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

FR

Differnt men have different ideas of what makes a woman attractive. For example, I like long hair on a woman, at least down to her shoulders. The lady I have been dating has such hair. A buddy of mine finds short hair, barely to the ears to be sexy. I think it makes a woman look like a boy. To each his own.

Weight is touchy. A few extra pounds don't bother me at all. I am not exactly perfect. But a lot of extra weight does cause me to view a woman as unattractive. It's really bad if she out weighs me.

I see lots of men and women who are seriously overweight. I realize some have medical conditions that make them prone to gain weight, but not most of them. The average American has gaing 25 pounds in the last 40 years. Thats a lot of extra weight and it can't be explained by increased height or medical conditions. It's mostly due to lack of exercise and poor diet.

Oh, I would think packing up and moving will help to burn a lot of calories. Just watch what you eat. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Here's something I posted a few months ago, slightly edited...

As I see it, there are two competing myths when it comes to feminine beauty. They've been set up against each other, but they are both lies.

The first lie is that the class of humans called "men" prefers some particular region (or regions) of the spectrum of female physical attributes over other regions.

The truth is, those preferences have always been subject to fads, and individual preferences have always diverged considerably from whatever the prevailing fad may be.

The second lie is that appearance doesn't (or at least shouldn't) matter to men. The pretense is that an enlightened adult male will see past any exterior and accept a female's body no matter what it looks like; men get lambasted for being so "shallow" as to admit that it makes a difference to them.

Well, sorry, but to the vast majority of men I believe appearance does make a difference, whether they dare to admit it or not.

The propaganda wars have resulted in some women practically demanding to be accepted and admired no matter what their shape or mode of dress, while other women obsess over "flaws" which few men perceive as flaws at all.

But do you want to know what men really find physically attractive in a woman? It's pretty simple, actually: a healthy, fit body carried with grace and self-assurance.

Yes, the secret that men everywhere know, but which cosmetics manufactureres and plastic surgeons desperately want to keep women from finding out, is that men find a wide variety of female shapes to be beautiful - as long as the female in question appears healthy. A woman who is genetically wired to be plump is going to look worse if she starves herself in order to match a prevailing ideal of slimness, while a woman who is genetically wired to be thin is going to look worse if she packs on the pounds.

Let's face it: if a woman doesn't look as if she can be bothered to take care of herself, a man is going to wonder whether she can be bothered to take care of him (which is not to imply that he just wants to be taken care of; hopefully he is also enthusiastic about doing his part to take care of her). And if she's not even comfortable being herself, how can she expect anyone else to be comfortable with her? A lot of men know far too well the terror of such no-win situations as the dreaded question "Does this make me look fat?"

But even so, the primary importance of appearance is in getting a man to take "notice" in the first place. It's amazing how, the more you come to love someone, the more beautiful they become. There's a tradeoff here: a woman who shows up on a lot of men's radars is going to have to deal with a lot of...um...losers, I guess we'll call them. On the other hand, a woman who flies mostly under the radar is probably going to have to spend time developing friendships with men before they start to see her in a different light.

Personally, I believe that the friendship route is the best route under just about any circumstances. Live your life doing what you want to do and being who you want to be, developing your relationships with God and other people because you love them and are interested in them rather than because you wonder whether anyone is ever going to marry you. It's when you don't need a man that they will find you most attractive anyway.

Well, I can say that I won't feel like approaching a woman and striking up a conversation if I am not physically attracted to her. Looks mean a lot, especially when first starting a relationship. I'm sorry, but I guess I am one of the shallow pigs out there. I have probably just taken Rebornman's redemption of mankind and set it back to where it previously was. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

On the other hand, if you read Rebornman's comment you will see that the heavy woman who "sparkles" is someone he already knows. He has gotten to know her personality and she is a good woman. This is the one way, I feel, a less attractive (for lack of a better way to word it) woman can catch my attention. There was a woman I knew in college who I got to know as friends. She was a very heavy gal (with a beautiful face), but I was attracted to her nonetheless. The problem is, getting past that stage where you meet and get to know them.

I like the comment about self-confidence. I saw that trick in operation when I went to college. I was surround be gorgeous, perfect girls. I was in awe for two weeks or two months. Anyway, I started really looking at them. They weren't all gorgeous and none were perfect. They just acted like they were and people believed them!

Personally, I usually can become attracted to a man as I get to know him, but not always. Sometimes there's just no chemistry. A long time ago I went out on a date with a gorgeous man. He was like a movie star, I kid you not. As the night wore on, I just felt nothing for him. No chemistry. Gorgeous man seeing me home and I had no interest in kissing him good night. Trust me, this was a first.

I wouldn't be surprised if it sometimes worked the same way with men. Fluidity in attractiveness unless there's absolutely no chemistry.

Personally, I'm not interested in men who want beautifully toned, model thin females. As a working mom, I truly don't have time to exercise regularly, and a man that was that high maintenance isn't for me.

You know, some days I think I look better than I do others. But there are two men at my office who have crushes on me. And I don't care for either one. Just don't. Well, one's married and too fat. And the other is too......weird.

But Monday, I caught another guy (who had asked me for help because I really do know what I am doing at work and not many people know as much as me) looking at my legs when asking me for help. I was sitting in my chair in my cell...I mean, my cube....and to me it was obvious. I think that guy's a bit OCD.

There aren't too many normal men who work in my office. And there is not one, out of the 40-50 of them, that I would have.

But one man who has a crush on me told me the other day that I was oozing sex appeal. I think it was because I had on some pretty snazzy hot pink shoes and he has a thing for shoes. So, I had hot pink toenails too.

Anyway, I thought I did look pretty good that day but I would not have thought I was oozing.

I don't know.....I just don't know what they think is attractive.

I do know the Diplomat likes blond hair. I get to see him next week. YAHOO!!! And I will be blonder!!!!

As I read your post, I realize I don't want to ever again put myself in a position to be rejected based on my physical merits. My pain is still too present, and emotions too raw, I guess. I don't want to get close to someone until I know if I'm OK the way I am - I just am not up for the humiliation again.

I keep thinking that I could end up sick, like a friend of mine with cancer who has gained lots of weight and may end up losing her life. I remember saying to my H (towards the end) that I wasn't sure he'd stick by me if I got sick and couldn't be the way he wanted me to be (for him). His reaction told me I was right about him. He wanted the life he wanted, and the wife he wanted - and felt entitled to have that. But, for me, I don't think I could tolerate that kind of rejection, and don't want to be with someone whose love for me would be based only on what was in it for him.

As I write this, I'm feeling the tears come. I don't know what it will take for me to get past worrying about this kind of rejection; wondering if all men are like this, and if not, how to tell who is and who isn't. At times when I feel like this, I wonder why I'm here on this board at all, and not just rejecting relationships completely, for all time.

Food for thought...why is being rejected for physical appearance any more angst ridden then being rejected for intellectual incompatibility, or not funny enuf, or being to much of a neatnick....or whatever... rejection is rejection, it is perfectly normal, and happens to everyone, all the time, in a variety of ways, no one likes it...so why the angst?

re the question about physical... I being male, like most males am not attracted to overweight women (prettiness, is another matter, much more latitude, but I am partial to shoulder length, or longer, hair (I luv pony and pigtails), and she must be a couple inches (at least) shorter than me.

I wrestle with the weight argument (insides are what count, blah blah blah), cause it seems unfair. But I decided is silly, we feel this way cause we are supposed to feel this way (for the most part...and not talking 10% overweight, but 30, 40% is ridiculous..no excuse for it).

I tried to figure out why, and a couple things occured to me.

1. There is no excuse for being overweight, none, zippo, is a behavioral issue, (and I have been fat myself, never for a moment had any problem with being rejected for that reason, don't blame em a bit). Since this is clearly soooooo important a factor in being "selected" (especially for women), a fat woman simply tells me she doesn't care enuf about relationships to take the most fundamental step in success. Doesn't mean she isn't nice, valuable, would be friends with her, but I will not have the slightest romantic interest in her, or ask her for a date. Should per chance I somehow manage to want to pursue a fat woman (becuase of all those other good traits), I would tell her this, and that if she likes me, lose weight and let's see what happens. If she is offended, she is not worthy anyways, taking offense at real life, and facts, is even less attractive than being fat.

2. Being fat is a health risk factor, I won't date anyone who smokes either, or drinks much, or does drugs....a fat woman (or man, but I don't date men) is a walking disaster area just looking for place to happen...so why date her? If she thinks so little of her own well-being, by definition she is pyschologically unhealthy also. In fact the worst thing that can happen to a fat woman is be pursued by some guy who says is ok, he loves her anyways....that way she never is compelled to lose weight, and improve her health, not a good outcome.

I have heard all the excuses about being fat, it is my metabolism, I had kids, my genes are fat....is all hogwash, you are fat cause you eat more calories than your body burns...eat less, and you won't be fat....not that complicated, is all about motivation...a fat woman is saying she doesn't care about the nature of men, and what attracts them..at least she doesn't care enuf to do anything about it...that's why she is unattractive.

Knight, I agree. If you are worried about your weight - DO SOMETHING about it! That is controllable. Eat less, exercise more.

WARNING: Firestorm ahead. And I'm NOT apologizing for any of it.

Knight: You obviously don't know the first thing about biology if you think that it is a simple matter for all people to lose weight. There are an extraordinary number of factors involved, not the least of which are gender (women are SUPPOSED to have a higher body fat level than men), hormones (when women enter middle age, their metabolisms CHANGE) and genetics (not something you can treat or change). Then there are issues such as income level (it's EXPENSIVE to eat RIGHT) and life style (i.e., the type of job you have, the demands on your time at home, etc.).

There is nothing SIMPLE about weight loss, and a person's weight absolutely does NOT equate to self-care or self-respect or respect for others. That's a bunch of horse-hooey that shallow people make up to excuse the fact that they are unwilling to go beyond skin level, IMGLO.

If weight loss were as simple as eating less, I'd have no problem with it at all. But my problems are currently exacerbated by a couple of health issues - one which has lowered my metabolism a bit and one which has made it difficult for me to exercise. And I know of many people who have these same issues.

And if today's culture wasn't so hung up on the sticks with t**s (sorry, it's a good visual), we'd have less women dying of anorexia and bulemia in this country. Did you know that being 10% underweight is far more likely to cause death than being 10% overweight?

I am clean, attractive, smart, funny, fun to be with and men certainly seem to enjoy being around me. Once, I was a size 12, and looked damned good - but do you know what? Based on what I'm hearing from you and a few others, even at that size I wouldn't have met your "requirements"...

I am going to lose weight because I will FEEL better. And that should be the ONLY reason a woman loses weight. I'm sorry, but I CANNOT believe that every single man who is looking for a thin woman is the equivalent of Brad Pitt... I KNOW they are not. Perhaps it is because I understand what it is like to have trouble losing weight, but I would never make THAT my number one priority in getting to know a guy better.

This isn't MATH - it's human biology.

T