I didn't say it was simple terri, I fought it for a long time, still am some. I said if you eat less calories than you burn, you will lose weight...do you disagree with that?

I thought might rile someone, that's ok, is your life, live it like you want...be a happy vivacious personable fat (if you are) woman, but don't be surprised at how limited your romance options are, or complain about it, not gonna change. And don't imply some people can't lose weight, place anyone in an enviroment where they have no access to food except what someone else gives them, and I will bet you everything I own they lose weight..wanna bet?

btw, I didn't say anything about sticks with whatever, I even purposefully mentioned a 10% overweight is probably not that big an issue for most men. You have reacted strongly, and went off the reservation some with your response, that suggests to me you have a personal issue that is about you, not a valid complaint about men. I will repeat, if anyones motivation is strong enuf, they will lose weight..... do you disagree? And I do think it is about respect for oneself, and ones mate. Why would a guy carry a 100lb beer gut, and die earlier than otherwise, if he truly loved his wife? Weight is a correctable condition, not doing so means something terri, and none of the reasons are ok IMO.

There are many people who cut back on what they eat, and their metabolisms ADJUST to cause their bodies to burn less than they did before. If it was so simple to lose weight, there would be FAR fewer people who are overweight.

No, I don't have an issue with MYSELF. I have an issue with the insistence that something is black or white, on or off, done or NOT CARED ABOUT. If I don't lose weight, that is NOT an indication that I don't care about me, relationships, the men in my life... It is an indication that I am not losing weight. PERIOD. You are expressing a relationship with what you termed as simply a behavioral issue, a relationship that does not exist in fact.

Yes, if you consume fewer calories than you expend, theoretically you will lose weight. The FORMULA is straightforward when all other factors are stripped away... but again, I stress that you cannot strip away all the other factors.

I spent at least 6 months exercising for up to 2 hours at least 4-5 days a week, and carefully watched what I ate.
Keep in mind that my exercise regimen involved at least a half hour of quite brisk walking, one of the best ways to burn calories... I lost, in that entire time, a grand total of 10 pounds. How would you explain that?

I have gender, metabolism, genetics and health issues that make it a TREMENDOUS struggle to lose even a little bit of weight - and I do work at it within the structure of my life. I'm not saying I think that every man should be in love with me - my objection here is to the opinions that you state as if they were fact - that women who are overweight do not care about themselves and that weight loss is a simple behavioral issue. Those are opinions I find repugnant and offensive. I also find your psychoanalyzation of my reaction to be offensive.

Ok, so you are offended, and I'm offended by your characterizations of my opinions, to me that is a more honest appraisal of what is going on here...then trying to impply that some people can't lose weight. Do you typically take disagreements to a personal level? If you don't want rebuttal, don't post things one might disagree with...right? I tend to be straitforward terri, and I really don't really worry much about the recipient being offended by a civil reply of rebuttal, since that would be your problem.


you said...I spent at least 6 months exercising for up to 2 hours at least 4-5 days a week, and carefully watched what I ate.
Keep in mind that my exercise regimen involved at least a half hour of quite brisk walking, one of the best ways to burn calories... I lost, in that entire time, a grand total of 10 pounds. How would you explain that?

That sounds like a good effort, I can sympathize with the frustration...but the facts are not refuttable terri, you ate enuf calories to equal a 10lb weight loss....which in itself, if is permanent, is an accomplishment....another year, and down another 20 lbs. Perhaps your ire about this issue has blinded you to the fact I did not address how easy or hard losing weight is.... But since you brought it up, certainly this is a highly variable factor for many of the reasons you posted, so what?

Let me ask you something....if you knew with certainty, 3 weeks from now you would die if you did not lose 5 lbs...could you do it? That is what motivation is about terri, and those who don't lose weight, are simply not sufficiently motivated to do so. They make a choice, between how hard it is to lose weight (for them), how they want to live their life (in re to eating), and how willing they are to be unattractive to the opposite sex (a function of how much overweight). Also overweight camoflagues a whole host of psychological issues, for which weight gain is just a sympton, and needs to be fixed first. Sorry (really) if this makes you mad terri, but it is still about motivation.

(While ducking the flaming arrows flying through this post - please allow this thought): <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

There are plenty of people who are physically attracted to members of the opposite sex with various shapes, colors and sizes. That is not really the point here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

The problem develops when a person of a particular "type" (or education level, religious belief, income level...) desires to "date" another who has different desires or beliefs. It's still all about choice! If I did not complete high school and desire to date a woman who only wants to be with professors; who the heck am I to get upset if she won't change her mind for me? Isn't that a bit arrogant on my part? If I do not meet someone else's desires (and vice-versa); then so be it. It's not their fault and it's not mine. We're just on different planets. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

From the mouth of the infamous Rodney (not Dangerfield): "Can't we all just get along"? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

FR

Terri already alluded to this, but...

Actually, while this may be true in the long term (you can't get any more fundamental than the laws of thermodynamics), simply eating fewer calories may very well make you get fatter! If your body discovers that its fuel supply is being reduced, it may respond by siphoning off more of what it does take in for the production of fat stores. In the meantime, since it has to be finding energy somewhere, it may decide to start breaking down muscle. With less muscle and more fat, the body requires less fuel just for its basal metabolic requirements. This makes the body happy, since it has not only reduced its fuel requirements, but it has also increased its fuel reserves! It's a win-win situation from a medium-term survival standpoint. Of course, with the new metabolic habits it has established, when calorie intake goes up the body is more likely to simply pack on more fat than to restore the muscle. Unless, that is, something has happened to convince the body that it needs to add muscle more than it needs to add fat...

No, it's not simple at all. There are many variables in play. (For example, if you're not eating enough protein, then don't expect to add muscle.) And, every body is different.

Brisk walking - or in fact just about any form of relatively low-intensity cardiovascular exercise - is not a particularly effective way of losing weight. Yes, it's a good way to burn calories, but what you really want to do is increase your resting metabolic rate, since you spend a whole lot more time resting than walking. And the best way to increase your resting metabolic rate is to build muscle! The best way to build muscle is to do some form of weight training, which has the added benefit of making you stronger and less susceptible to injury from your day-to-day activity. (It also takes less time than low-intensity cardiovascular exercise, which isn't even the most effective way of increasing aerobic capacity!)

I realize that I am ignoring the emotional interplay here, but I thought I might just insert some potentially useful information just for a change of pace. I hope y'all don't mind...

I agree with this completely. Also, don't lose weight for anyone else but yourself. If it helps you attract the kind of man you are interested in the great!

I still say that losing weight is 95% sweat, diet and desire. Sure there are some medical conditions (underactive thyroid) that will hinder your metabolism, but excersising will increase your metabolism in most people as well as burn calories. Then you have to be disciplined to eat healthier to lose the weight and keep it off.

* I am not a personal trainer nor do I play on on TV, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

While it is quite true that different people have different struggles with weight issues for different reasons, humans have an in-built tendency to generalize. (This is not inherently a bad thing; it is an essential component of abstract reasoning, even applied abstract reasoning.) And the fact is, as a generalization, there are valid reasons to associate obesity (by which I do not mean a naturally curvaceous figure or a little extra padding) with lack of self-control and even lack of self-respect.

Fair or not, first impressions are important, and (although this is less true in today's world of online relationships) visual elements are usually the first input we have when forming our first impressions.

I would like to believe that in any particular case, first impressions can be overcome, if given the chance. Unfortunately, that opportunity is often not given.

No, it's not fair - any more than it's fair for a single mother, abandoned or abused by her ex-husband, to have fewer opportunities to meet available men, or to be seen as less desirable than someone who does not bring with her the challenges of a blended family. But absolutely nothing positive can come from getting bitter about it. (Please note that I am not making any accusations or psychological evaluations here regarding anyone being bitter; this is a merely a general statement.)

In the long run, the number of "opportunities" we are given is not pertinent. All that matters is the one opportunity which leads somewhere. Personally, I believe that if God is involved in the preparation and planning, that one opportunity will happen despite all the statistical obstacles we might be able to identify.

Gnome, you are correct, not sure what terri's issue is, my point was if you want to lose weight, you can, and studying up (or getting professional help) on the many factors involved is part of the responsibility in solving the problem. In our society today there is an abundance of information available in this regard, including understanding how metabolism works, so one doesn't cannabalize muscle....and indeed the fundamental laws of energy was my point. The other point is males (and females, but lesser extent) are programmed to seek healthy mates, and excess weight is percieved (instinctually) as unhealthy, hence less interest.

OK. I thought, maybe I am overreacting... I'll re-read what I wrote and maybe I'll see where I reacted out of proportion to what was said. So I did. And I didn't see any really terrible things there - other than putting "Knight" at the beginning of my post, I didn't attack personally nor take personally, as I was later accused of doing.

Then I re-read Knight's response that ignited the passionate response I made. And it all still aggravated me, but in particular, THESE quotes:


Assumption here is that any REASON, legitimate or otherwise, is an "excuse"...


"not that complicated" = 'simple' - something that Knight later says he didn't SAY. And the "hogwash" is a disrespectful judgment. Without knowing all of anyone's story, one cannot judge the merits of their REASONS. I've nowhere stated that I cannot lose weight - only that it is not quite as "uncomplicated" as Knight seems to believe it to be...


And THIS is the biggest disrespectful judgment in the entire post. A fat woman is not "saying" ANYTHING. That's something you have chosen to infer from a person's state of being. That is what I find offensive about your post. I have not "characterized" your opinions - I've pointed out that they are opinions and not based entirely in biological and medical fact - and I did so passionately and articulately.

You are entitled to your opinion - if you had simply stated "I don't find fat women the least bit attractive" that would have far more acceptable to me than trying to justify it with some pseudo-logic that has no basis in fact.

That's my ONLY "issue"...

Gnome:

Recall that I said that I was working out for about 2 hours per day and that 1/2 hour of this workout was brisk walking... the rest of it was weight training - upper body, back, abdominal and leg work. Which pretty much covers it all... And I was doing weights in some cases equivalent to a couple of the men I was working out with. So, I did have the entire package - and I still only lost 10 pounds over 6 months.

Of course, Knight would have us think that my diet must not have been adquately low in calories, even though I stated that I was also watching what I ate, because to think otherwise may be to acknowledge that there was something else at work in my case... this would blow the "everything else is just an excuse" out the window.

Just an FYI, so you understand a little more where I am coming from: For the past year, I've been under doctor's care for sarcoidosis. My particular case causes inflammation of the lymph nodes in my chest, making it difficult to catch my breath when I exercise just a little, and making me cough a lot. Since inflammation involves blood collecting in the tissues that are inflamed, anything that causes increased blood flow, including exercise and massage, can actually increase the symptoms of the disease. I've been lucky enough that I haven't had to be treated with Prednisone (which is the primary treatment for this disease) since Prednisone causes fluid retention and weight gain. I also currently have a slightly underactive thyroid, which is not being treated but is being watched. I want it to be clear that THESE ARE NOT EXCUSES. They are health problems. And mine are mild compared to some people's. And let me make it perfectly clear that these particular health problems are not brought ON by being overweight, lest someone try to make that connection.

I probably am a little oversensitive just now because my life has been turned upside down once again by circumstances beyond my control - I have lived in this apartment for 15 years (not 12 - I recalculated) and now have less than six weeks to box up and move all my stuff without any assurances that I will ever be able to find a place that suits my life style (my cats are the only "children" I'll ever have, I sleep in a waterbed and I really love having the freedom to wash and dry my clothes at home, not to mention that I need broadband internet access for consulting work that I do) ... and I certainly would not be able to purchase a home in a 30 day time period. So I'm a little stressed. I'm thinking that this will be my last post here for a while (at least until I find out where I will be living and maybe even have moved) because I don't want to 'overreact' and try to set somebody straight again.

T

Terri, though the exchange of opinion was a bit weighted toward you and I, we are not the only people on this board so was trying to be general. I am not sure why you felt this to be a personal conversation, since I have no idea who you are, or chose to put your own spin on my statements. I stand by everything I said, if one wants to lose weight, it can be accomplished...and that requires motivation. The range of motivation is great, I am convinced in your personal case you are motivated and try hard, and have a lot of factors making it difficult, this is not about being a good person. I am not sure "excuse" is a negative term per se, just a descriptive term to identify reasons something that could be accomplished was not...some excuses are ridiculous, and clearly denial...other excuses are more serious, such as taking medication that makes weight loss harder..btw, fluid retention is not really weight, water is not fat tissue, I understand that..and often times a lot of weight loss initially is simply a metabolic adjustment resulting in loss of excess retained water. Yes this is a complex subject, and can't be done justice in a few comments...I just stated my core opinions, anyone can lose weight if motivated...AND with the needed knowledge of how to do so for their personal circumstance. IMO regardless of the reason the motivation is insufficient, I do think that reflects on self, as it must.

I wasn't greatly disturbed by your animated responses, and is ok if my position on this annoys you, possibly we would not get along on many things, seems we have a somewhat different approach to discussion, such is life. I can appreciate your current circumstances, been there done that, the stress of relocation can be tough, hope it all works out for you. No offense taken (I only said that earlier to make a point about offense when discussing..so I fibbed a bit <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />...good luck with your hunt for new place to live).

Okay, I just felt the need to jump into this little game where everyone seems to think being overweight is the worst thing out there.

I am, for all intents and purposes, bordering on being underweight. Women frequently make mention of how thin I am and how they wish they could be like me. I do watch what I eat, but I believe genetically I am predisposed to being thin.

However, I've been separated for 1.5 years and DV for 6 months and haven't had one guy ask me out, chat with me at length, or show any more interest than some very casual flirting (and the flirters are usually guys I know already, not people I just meet here and there).

I have a reasonably attractive face, too.

What's the issue? Could be a lot of things. Maybe it's just my paranoia. But I believe it's this world's infatuation with female breasts and the fact that mine are about the size of a 10-year-olds.

And I'll guarantee, short of expensive and dangerous surgery, it's even harder to grow breasts than it is to lose weight for most people.

In my case, I believe if I want to date, I'll most likely have to join an internet dating site and get to know someone before they see me. I've had all those people who say "bust size shouldn't make a difference if he really cares about you", but the problem is, just like being overweight screws up getting to know someone, so does the absence of breasts. I can't get to know them if they aren't initially attracted to me physically.

And even my now XH made a comment many years ago in one of his drunken (and honest) moments. It still rings in my ears: "You're a f-ing b**ch and you got no t*ts! You'll never find anyone else! You're living in a fairy tale!"

The funny thing in all this is that so many men (him included) can have these limitations to the type of woman they are attracted to, yet they think they are God's gift to anyone as they stand there with their beer gut hanging out (he always said, with a tool like his, he had to build a shed over it), their hair receding, their butt going away because their love handles are overwhelming it, and believe they are the most physically attractive thing out there.

Women have eyes, too! And yes, we notice physical attractiveness just like a man does. And for me, I admit it would be hard to date some 4'10" guy who weighed 200 pounds, had thick glasses, and a pocket protector no matter how nice he was. (Personally give me about 5'10", slender, dark hair, dark eyes, full lips and a great smile!)

It's just that for most women, we can see that there is more to a relationship than just the physical attraction. No matter how good a woman or a man may look at 30-40, give them another 20-30 years and they will not look the same. If all you have is physical attraction and that goes away, then what?

I'm feeling a little opinionated today.

Unfortunately, there is an abundance of misinformation available - including, I would argue, some of the most popular beliefs in the medical and fitness world (such as the food pyramid and the value of plodding away on a treadmill). "Studying up" inevitably leads to more confusion, and professional help is expensive while not necessarily being effective. (Every body is different, and a professional may or may not be sufficiently knowledgeable or adaptable to deal with one's own particular requirements.)

Also, FWIW, if you are not carrying a lot of excess fat but still try to cut it down further, it is likely that you will also lose muscle. The best you can do is try to minimize muscle loss while maximizing fat loss. Similarly, if you want to gain muscle, it is likely that you will also gain fat. The best you can do is try to minimize fat gain while maximizing muscle gain.

The reasons for this have a lot to do with the thermodynamic equation previously referenced. If you eat enough to gain muscle, some of that food is likely to be converted to fat stores. And if you are eating so little that your body decides it needs to tap into its fat reserves, it will probably find itself in need of nutrients that it can't get from fat, causing it to go to muscle for them instead.

Now, if you maintain a level of activity with high energy requirements, you may be able to eat enough (choosing the right foods) to supply your body's nutritional needs - including what it needs to build muscle - while still operating on a calorie deficit. In that case, given an ample supply of fat stores, the body will hopefully decide that those fat stores are there to be used. If you're lucky it may even decide that, given the amount of exertion you are putting forth, carrying that extra weight is not worth the value of having that much of an energy reserve. Your metabolism should adjust - although what balance it decides on is going to vary from person to person, just as the location of those fat stores is going to vary from person to person.

Please note that the preceding is at best highly over-simplified, and is merely a reflection of my own understanding. I have no credentials to validate that understanding. Worse, I have no experience. My own weight problems lie at the other extreme: I lose weight frighteningly easily, and have a terrible time putting it on.

From what I have been given to understand, the correlation between excess weight and undesirability is to a significant extent cultural rather than instinctual. For example, in a cold-weather culture (e.g. Inuit), excess fat with its insulating properties increases survivability. A twig-thin girl is going to look unhealthy or at least unhardy, and is therefore less attractive. As another example, consider the "Rubenesque" figure. Apparently in Europe some 400 years ago, the well-padded figure was considered the height of feminine beauty - at least among the upper classes which constituted Rubens' clientele. I have heard it suggested that this was because it demonstrated wealth - at least enough to support a relatively inactive lifestyle with more than enough to eat. Then, as now, wealth was attractive. It's just that in America today we prefer it to be demonstrated by a different form of conspicuous consumption.

Hmm. So, how did you feel at the end of those six months? How did your clothes fit?

If you had a good weight training program, then a 10-pound loss might have been pretty reasonable. (I have no idea what your starting height or weight were, and I do not have the expertise to evaluate your situation in any case.) The thing is, I would guess that you lost rather more than 10 pounds of fat, while gaining the difference in muscle. Body composition is far more important than weight, and when getting into shape you can actually gain weight if your muscle gain outpaces your fat loss. Mighty discouraging if you're fixated on the scale, but it's actually a good thing.

I have another perspective on this - here we are being rejected by our spouses and feeling insecure, meanwhile having a million things to take care of (living arrangements, etc.) plus all the emotional pain. A bit overextended, wouldn't you say? So, yes, we can make time to study up on nutrition and exercise if we can overcome all the other stress. Plus, in a way, doing so is only reminding us of why we were rejected, which is what we are trying desperately to get beyond.

It can be a vicious circle, and for those of us who are stubborn besides, there may be a bit of resistance that we have to buy into that ideology.

Finally, what if we do, and our spouses still don't come back? Lots of false hope along the way?

This doesn't exactly describe me, as I'm not trying to get my H back and not trying to find a date right now either. I have gained some weight, but am not horribly overweight. I think for me it's less about the number of pounds and more about aging body shape. I have joined a health club, and not made it there yet - BUT I will. I did it for me, but do not think I could have handled either the diet or exercise right away after our split.

Don't be so sure - I did it! I also didn't think it was possible, and told my realtors that was a requirement I had - and lo and behold, they made it happen for me! Almost exactly 30 days from when I first looked at houses until I was moving in.

I also did all my packing and moving by myself. It was hard, and I don't think I have the energy now to do it - not sure how I managed it, quite frankly. But it can be done.

Harder, yes. But much less of an issue, I believe.

Lordslady, I don't for a moment think that your breast size is anywhere near the obstacle you believe it to be. Men may have aesthetic preferences, but as I've said before, men are quite capable of appreciating a wide variety of female body types.

To put it crudely (I hope y'all will forgive me), I myself am a "breast man." I happen to prefer very small breasts; I don't know why. But if a woman I liked happened to have average or large breasts, I would not hesitate for a moment to pursue her. It just doesn't matter to anyone who hasn't taken their preference to the level of a fetish - and I submit that that's not at all common.

And, lordslady, you yourself pointed out that people don't look the same after they've gotten a few decades behind them. Again being a bit crude, who do you think (all else being equal) is likely to look better at 60 or 70: the girl with the large breasts, or the girl with the small breasts? Do you think men (at least once they're out of their 20s) are too stupid to guess the answer to that question?

Please, ladies, just do the best you can to take care of yourself, for yourself. Don't worry about what you were or were not endowed with genetically. (OK, I'll grant that a family history of some serious genetic disease is kind of hard not to worry about - but all we're talking about here is the location and size of a few fat deposits!)

If you can accept yourself as you were made and then try to be the best you you can be, you will be well ahead of the game.

Gnome has a great point. We all, men and women, need to honor our bodies. Each of us is made differently, but each unique body is a divine gift. At different points, we need different things. Working out for 2 hours three to five times a week may not be reasonable for someone who is tring to get divorced, move, support the children emotionally and just keep all the balls in the air.

Can I tell you all about my friend? M. has a perfect size 2 body. She keeps it in tip top shape and eats like a bird. She has perfectly blonde hair with nary a root showing. Her teeth are perfectly white. Her china doll eyes are blue green. A few years back she got a boob job to complete the picture. She single. She's always been single, and unless she stops focusing on how she looks, she will always be single. This friend is a dear person who is very kind and loving. But, she doesn't get it.

GG, she sounds great!!! Care to introduce me to your friend? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



relax all, that was merely a joke to lighten the mood in here.