In order to "get" a woman you have to get her to feel attraction for you. Women don't feel attraction to guys that seem too nice - in other words "needy". Nice feels needy, OK? And women go by what they feel.

So how do you create attraction in a woman that interests you? You have to work at it in a direction that you won't immediately think is the correct way to go, but listen up.

Women like funny. They also like confidence. If you want to promote yourself and create attraction, then combine the two. Be confident and funny. Practice some nifty replies to anticipated questions and get her laughing.

Be brief. If this is a woman you've just met in a social setting, walk up to her, get your game on for a couple of minutes, get her phone number or email and then go. Hanging around makes you seem needy. She'll wonder why you didn't hang around and try to pick her up or ask her out or converse with her all night like all the other guys that come on to her night after night...

Now if your objective is to date and only date, then never call or see the woman more than 2x a week. More often than that and the lady starts thinking "relationship".

No one says you can't be nice. Bust on her as you are opening a door for her. Make her laugh while you're massaging her feet. Create the attraction and interest in her first and keep her laughing and on her toes to keep up with your witticisms. Then if a relationship develops - read at least 3-6 months of dating, you can deepen the relationship by showing more of your sensitive side.

Sunny

Another issue men have to deal with is the new independence of women. They are economically strong, and in many cases stronger than us. They don't need us to support them. But, they also don't need to trick us to get us to support them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Though they don't need us to economically support them, as others have mentioned, they still seem to have a basic need to have a man as a protector. Confusing, isn't it?

This thread is cracking me up. I think there is someone out there for everyone. Just be yourselves, guys. There is no need for games or pretending to be someone else.

If a woman doesn't like you just the way you are, she is the wrong woman for you.

Learning to control ourselves so as to not let our attraction to another woman get the better of us, is somewhat akin to avoiding LB or discovering what are a woman's EN. I'm sure you'll agree that is not playing games or pretending someone we are not <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Perhaps but if she is still a good person, then she can become a great and valuable friend who MAY be the source in finding the right woman. That in the end could be much better than having a romantic relationship with her.

Rejection can be a hidden blessing if we stop fearing it and embrace it as part of the natural order of things and are receptive to the doors it opens.

TMCM

Great topic! TMCM & GG have it.

Confidence, strength, an interest in exploring new things (not bungy jumping or sking from a helicopter) just a willingness to go somewhere new & different. Sensitivity to the needs of others & if we're lucky, some romance thrown in. Does that sound like too much or like "bad boy" behavior? Not to me it doesn't.

To me bad boys are the immature, selfish men who haven't learned to be open & share themselves with a woman. Maybe what some women find attractive in this type is the challenge. You know the adage, women marry hoping to change the man, men marry hoping she will never change.

This was my XH and I! I was a "bad girl" (sort of) who married a "bad boy"...not sure why, but I'd say confidence and a wicked sense of humor were the two biggest attractions to him. And then we partied all the time which attracted him to me.

But then I changed. I grew up, AND I became a Christian. So now I was hoping he'd change and grow up past 18, and he was angry and resentful because I wasn't the same person he married. I think that caused a LOT of his resentment toward me. He wasn't ready to grow up or have responsibility--still isn't as far as I can tell. But he found himself another partying "bad girl". Maybe she won't change on him?

Bad boys (Harley-loving, hard-partying, afraid-of-nothing)may be interesting in their way. Knowing what I know now, I'd run very fast in the other direction of I sensed this "quality" in someone I was interested in.

(Well, the Harley-loving part I sort of miss.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Miss his Harley as well.)

JE,

In response to your comment:


I fear this could be something I have to deal with that may turn off many men, including my XH (who made less than me as an auto mechanic). I have a good job as a department director, I own a 7-yr-old home in the 'burbs, and can support myself (though I don't make enough to do much more than just the basic support. Not much dining out and no vacations going on right now.) I'm also fairly good at taking care of things. I know who to call for what. I always negotiated all family business deals. And I'm even getting better at fixing things myself (fixed my own broken washer and reinstalled my dishwasher after my flooring went in last week.)

But guess what. No matter how it appears, I really would LOVE to have a man who I felt wanted to take care of me and a man who could "protect me" and make me feel safe. It's one of the things I miss most. And this man doesn't need to be my financial equal. A carpet-layer would be fine as long as we shared the same personality and intelligence and perhaps sense of humor. Maybe some "independent" women aren't interested in this. But this one still is!

That's great IMO. It means if we don't "need" a man, it is less likely we will be using him as a means to an end. The way I look at it, I have a good life and if someone can enhance it, I will like that person for who he is and not what he can do for me.

LL, I have noticed several things since I have been single again. In the over 20 years since I was last single, several things have changed. One of them is that women are much more financially independent and don't NEED a man for support like their mothers and grand mothers did. But, one thing that has not changed is that they still look to a man as a source of protection and strength even if it now fullfills a more psychological need than a survival need.

The other thing that has not changed is that the guy still has to take the first, and often the second and third steps to initiate a dating relationship. Women still flirt, but so far I haven't been asked out on a date by so much as one woman whom I had not already taken out at least once. The closest I have come has been a woman I talked to at a party. As she was leaving she asked for my phone number so we could continue the conversation. She called a few days later and we talked. After 1/2 hour it became obvious that if we were going to date, I had to ask her out, so I did. After that she would suggest dates, but she never asked me out.

I'm 45 years old, a bit younger than you, but not all that much. I was brought up that women who are too forward are generally looked upon badly by men. Regardless of how we are raising our youth, the way WE were raised is going to help determine how we deal with dating today.

The thought of asking a guy that I'm attracted to out on a date terrifies me... perhaps that is because I want the best of both worlds - if he's interested in more than friendship, that's incredible - but if he's interested in being friends, I don't want to endanger that, either. And I've had too many men that I've had good friendships with freak out if I ask them out or express an interest in more than just being friends, and in so doing, I've lost most of them as friends. That, and (no matter how much a part of reality it is) rejection bites.

T

Life_goes_on

Could you please email me at p o l e k a t _ 2 2 @ y a h o o . c o m ?

(take the spaces out to get my email)

Thanks

There are other teachers around, and I try to keep my eyes open for suitable opportunities. It's difficult to find classes of a suitable level, especially at a time and location that will work with my schedule, but I have found some and I do study elsewhere. For better or worse, it just so happens that the woman I'm interested in is my best teacher. (There are others of her caliber, but the opportunities to study with them haven't been there for me.) Making me even more reluctant to drop her as a teacher, class sizes tend to be small enough so that the loss of one person jeopardizes the continuation of the class. For her, losing classes means losing income, and I would hate to have my foolish feelings cost her a portion of her livelihood, especially since she has no problem with having me as a student.

As far as doing other things with her where I show more confidence, I'm already doing that. We are friends after all, and our activities and social worlds have considerable overlap. I believe I have been given every opportunity I've needed to show her what kind of man I really am. (And yes, Sunny, that includes showing her that I have a sense of humor; if nothing else, I know she thinks I'm funny.)

And even on the confidence front... I'm not macho, but I believe machismo is often a cover for a lack of confidence. What I do have is a strong enough self-respect that I am not afraid to embarrass myself, and i am not afraid to go against the grain.

I don't swagger, but I do stand tall (well, as tall as I can - which is at least taller than my lady friend) and stride.

I think I'll stop worrying about this, and just do as believer suggests: be myself. (Although, it's not going to hurt me any to work on toning down the self-deprecation, if only for the effect it may have on my own attitude about myself.) If my lady friend cannot see the man behind the student, then she is not the woman I believe she is.

Thanks, all.

I appreciate the simplicity of the suggestion, life_goes_on, but there's a history here you're missing. This isn't a matter of me harboring a secret love for a teacher while being fearful of breaking the teacher/student taboo or trying to work up the nerve to approach her. I first asked her out over two years ago (she said "no") and we've had a number of talks since then where we've danced around the subject of dating. Although I have not pushed for her to reconsider, she has repeatedly affirmed her decision not to date me.

That should be enough that I should just accept it, but the situation has been complicated by the fact that for at least most of this time neither of us have been emotionally or spiritually ready to form a romantic relationship - with anyone, let alone each other. We have both grown and healed a lot, though, and I have a sense now that we are both at a point where we could handle it, and handle it well. I am more and more thinking that it is about time I finally have a very direct talk with her. The end of the term, coming up in a few weeks, seems like it might be the ideal time...

It's a big risk, but I reckon that taking it would at least prove that I'm not a milquetoast, and might take me out of that "safe" friend zone. I still want to be her friend - indeed, I will still be her friend, even though I know I might have to accept much more exacting boundaries - but up till now my friendship has not required anything of her, and there have been no incentives at all for her to do anything but keep me comfortably in that "safe" zone. If anything is ever going to happen, the equation has to change, and at this point I'm guessing that that means taking some of the comfort out of it.

Am I making any sense?

Heh. I approached her intending to ask if we could set up a time to talk, but she beat me to it; she wants to talk to me.

Anyone care to bet that she's going to ask me to get out of her life? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Not sure how you two have been getting along lately, but I say show some of that confidence you talk about. This will be a good talk!

Naw, I don't think so. If she was gutsy enough to initiate that kind of conversation, I think she'd have just spit it right out.

Go with the flow and I bet it will turn out better than you expect.

Well...we talked.

It was a very good talk actually. I don't believe either of us was holding anything back, despite the sometimes difficult nature of what we had to say. I think it's fair to say that we have established a very solid level of trust and affection.

She had a lot of very nice things to say about me (apparently she doesn't perceive me as unconfident at all), and I don't think she was saying them in order to soften the blow.

But the bottom line for her is that no matter how much "sense" it makes for us to be together, she feels no "spark."

Geez, I'm sorry. I had thought it would turn out differently for you. HUGS - take care!

GDP, Sorry.

I've been following your posts off and on and had hoped, for your sake, that she'd finally come around - I think men are often more emotional and women more rational and take longer to fall in love, contrary to stereotypes.

I haven't been in love for so long - not since my H, and we met 23 years ago - that even though the outcome for you is bittersweet, I think of the saying that "it's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all."

Well, she's certainly taking a long time to fall in love with me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> And as far as I'm concerned it is quite rational to reject the idea of marriage to someone you are not in love with. I wouldn't marry someone I wasn't in love with. So, LetSTry, I reckon my situation fits your thinking. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the empathy.

Actually, I don't know how to process this "outcome." I feel that it is an important step forward, but I'm not sure how or in what direction. I believe that - now that we have been fully honest with each other and lowered our walls - we are closer than ever. I think that I have reached a point where my primary view of this woman is as a friend, and I know that I am happy to be friends with her. I am also reasonably satisfied that my heart is not so tightly tied up that I cannot develop a relationship with someone else. Indeed, I can sort of view this whole situation as the best kind of rebound relationship: one in which - although sometimes painful (in the way physical therapy is sometimes painful) - much healing occurred, and neither of us harmed the other. We have great respect and appreciation for each other, along with plenty of warm feelings, and no awkward regrets.

And yet...

I still believe we are perfect for each other, lacking only that one small spark. We are still friends, with lives interwoven in multiple ways. Who can tell whether some day, in some way, a "chance" breath of air may blow across a glowing ember...