ML,

I agree with most of what you are saying here...buuuuutttt...

Not so. Jesus said at the Cross, "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." They had not repented. They were in active rebellion and He asked for the forgiveness of His tormentors.

Again, I agree that it isnt to make us feel good or holy. You are correct. But forgiveness has to do with the forgiver and who they are, not with those who are forgiven. EVERY person's sins have been forgiven. Did you know that? Everyones!! The problem is, they never accept and receive that forgiveness. There is only ONE sin that sends us to Hell. That is the sin of not accepting the price Jesus paid at the Cross...not accepting God's forgiveness. It is just as much a sin not to forgive, as it is to have someone forgive you and you not accept it.

No question with most of this. But repentence first involves seeing that we have sinned and then second accepting His forgiveness. Of course the last part of that is to then turn from your sinful ways. But repentence isnt just turning. In order to turn, you must recognize the sin, accept the payment for your sin (forgiveness) and then turn.

He already has. The issue is whether or not they will accept it and follow Jesus.

All true. Which is why they must accept His forgiveness.

True. But here's a question...did God forgive us first, or did we ask for forgiveness first. The Bible says He has forgiven us and all we have to do is accept it. Which is again why no one goes to Hell due to adultery, or murder or any other sin. Other than one...not accepting Jesus payment for our sin. You see, the forgiveness came from God due to what His Son did...not anything we did or will do. The forgiveness comes from grace. Unmerited favor. When people ask "How can a holy God send people to Hell?" Answer: He doesnt. His Son took all of man's sins on Himself. He paid the price...and God forgave those sins due to the actions of His Son. The forgiveness was on the sins His Son carried. All of our sins. Which is why we go to Hell if we do not accept Jesus and what He did. It is because we rejected the payment and forgiveness that has already been handed out.

again, I disagree. You said "he offers us forgiveness." See? He offers...we decide to accept or reject. This forgiveness thing does not start with the offender...it starts with the offended.

There are more reasons to do so than making us feel good. If the sin is not forgiven, it means that we still hold onto it. If what another person did to us is not forgiven, then it still remains with us. And that pain, that anger, etc. can keep us from having the kind of relationship with Jesus that He wants us to have. Thus, He wants us to rid ourselves of it, in order to be closer to Him. How do we do that? Forgiveness. Of course, you are right when you say that we should never withold forgiveness from someone seeking it. There are other passages in Scripture that outline this ("Luk 17:4 "And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him.").

But for those that never seek repentence, never seek forgiveness...forgiveness is then about the forgiver and making them holy. Yes, forgiveness makes us more holy. Not in a holier-than-thou kind of way. But in a getting rid of anything that would keep us from our relationship with Christ.

Correct, this admonishment says that the person is to be rebuked and if he comes for repentence (asking for forgiveness), you are to give it. But that isnt the ONLY part of the story. Rebuking just means that we are to let that person know in whatever way is appropriate that what they are doing is wrong.

So, the OP is sleeping with our WS. We let the OP know that under any terms of Scripture, they are sinning against God and against the BS. And that they are to cease. This is what it means by rebuke. If they then ask for forgiveness, then you must give it to them.

Again, Jesus forgave those that were putting Him on the Cross as they were doing it. They werent repentent. They didnt shout up to Him on the Cross "I am so sorry...will you forgive me." No their forgiveness came from the forgiver and had NOTHING to do with the actions of the forgiven. Their eternal stay in Hell is if they did not accept that forgiveness...not due to the nails they hammered into His body.

In His arms.

Hey Jerry...

The answer to that question is...it depends. What has God laid on your heart? In my case, Jesus has not told me to go to the Troll and try to lead him to Christ. And I certainly am not going to do so of my own accord.

I have read where some parents of their murdered children have actually gone to the jail and met with the murderer and led them to Christ. But, if my memory serves me, in the interviews afterwards, those parents told the reporters that they felt led to do so. So, the answer is that if Jesus lays on your heart that you will be the one He uses to help the OP come to Him, then yes...you must do so. If not, then it is not yoru obligation.

In His arms.

I love EPHESIANS. Paul speaks about forgiveness in Ephesians but he also goes on to say this in 5:5-8 in reference to ministering to the adulterer.

Good point Mimi. And guess what? We are ALL fornicators, unclean, covetous, idolaters. Every single one of us!! Jesus said that if you have even thought it in your mind, then you are guilty of that offense.

Have I looked at a woman in lust? Yes. The I am a fornicator. Have a looked at another woman in lust while married? Yes. I am an adulterer. Have I put anything else ahead of my relstionship with Christ? Yes. Then I am an idolater. Have I ever wanted that which wasnt mine? Yes. Then I am a covetor. Have I ever held anger in my heart for another (not righteous anger)? Yes. Then I am a murderer.

And it can go on and on. I am a fornicator, adulterer, covetor, murderer. That is who Mortarman is without the forgiveness of God. Thus, without His forgiveness, without His payment for these sins of mine...then I have no inheritence in Heaven.

See, by saying it is based on the person who did the wrong, then we are taking God out of the picture again. We are saying that there is something we have to do to get forgiven, to have our sins forgiven. They already are!!!! "It is finished!"

Our sin at this point that sends us to hell, that keeps us from our inheritence is not those sins I listed above. Those that I am very guilty of. It is the sin of not accepting God's forgiveness.

In His arms.

Mortarman,
YOU'RE AWESOME! Thank God there was someone who could jump in here and put my thoughts out there so they acutually made sense.
One of the last utterance's of Christ before he gave up His Spirit to His Father in heaven. So, what was finished?
The business of forgiveness. The reconciliation between man and God that was needed since Adam and Eve's sin. After all, the Father is also a God of Justice. How could that be reconciled in the face of sin? Answer: The sacrafice of His only Son on the cross.
Awesome, brother, absolutely awesome.
Jerry

Glad I could help. And you finished it nicely here!

I wanted to expound upon this a little further because I think it is central to this idea of forgiveness.

On the Cross, Christ saw all of us. He saw all of our sins that we hadnt even commited yet. He saw them all because He was having them put on His shoulders. He was making payment for it.

He saw when Mortarman hit his brother when he was 14. He saw when I slept with many women before I was married. On that Cross, He saw all of that...for all of us. You dont think He didnt see it...feel it? He paid the payment for EVERY sin committed. He did so willingly.

But that wasnt where sadness entered in for Him. Sadness came as He saw those that would never accept His sacrifice, never accept God's forgiveness. Christ paid the debt...but many debtors didnt accept that payment. They wanted to pay for their sins on their own. The sadness comes from the fact that their sins were paid for too. Every last one of them.

What sends them to Hell for eternity is a new sin...the unforgivable sin. And there is only one. And that is not accepting God's forgiveness.

I hope that explains it better.

In His arms.

This thread is sooooo hijacked !

Pep

And did he, in fact, forgive them? We don't know that because it doesn't say. We do know that Jesus wanted EVERYONE to be forgiven, ie: reconciled with God, but does everyone choose that? No, they don't. I don't imagine for a minute that the Lord gave those folks a seperate standard from the rest of us and forced them into heaven against their will.


I don't agree with this, MM. Everyone is not forgiven. God does not force his forgiveness on everyone. If that were so, there would be no need for hell, since everyone is forgiven, they would all go to heaven. Christ paid the price for all sins, but in order to receive forgiveness from God, one must REPENT. Forgiveness is freely given to those who want it for the purpose of reconciliation. It takes TWO to reconcile. To say otherwise, entirely misses the point of forgiveness, which is to restore, and again it takes TWO to restore.

For example, the Bible is very clear that one must REPENT or they will perish, that is the first step in receiving forgiveness:

2Jesus answered, "Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? 3I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. 4 Luke 13:2-4

In the book of Acts:

37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call." Acts 2:37-39

Acts 8:22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.[/i]

It is very clear to me that repentence is a requirement and that is because one cannot reconcile if sin is standing between us.


This is not true at all. One does not have to hold onto anything. Anger and bitterness can easily be absolved without enacting an empty feel good measure of "forgiveness" that benefits no one. I agree that one should never hold onto anger; it comes between God and I. You don't have to pass out forgiveness like cheap candy to folks who don't want it to achieve that.

But the point of forgiveness is to reconcile and that cannot be done without 2 people. Forgiveness is supposed to a beautiful gift that we GIVE TO our brother, it is not supposed to be used to make ourselves feel good.

Let's say you come to my house and DEMAND that I accept your gift of roses but I refuse them. Who are you benefiting by leaving them on my front porch? Not me. You have shown me disrespect, in fact, by forcing your gift on me simply so you will feel good. And where did your roses end up? In the trash. And that is what happens when we pass out unwanted forgiveness like cheap candy, it simply cheapens what was intended to be a beautiful gift.......just so we can feel holy moly. God does not hand out unbidden forgiveness like cheap candy and neither should we.

In short, God objectively offers us forgiveness and the restoration of fellowship, but this his forgiveness is not realized, however, until we repent.

Sorry Pep,
Hope it was not offesive. You are probably right but the thought of forgiving OP is very sensitive and touches on very raw emotions.
All the best,
Jerry

MM, but the scripture doesn't say that at all. A person doesn"t "come for" for repentence, repentence is what one DOES on his own. Repentence is what the person DOES in order to receive forgiveness. And like it says,"and if he repent,forgive him." You just can't get any clearer than that.

Mortarman wrote:
And this is exactly my point! If they don't accept it, they are not forgiven. If someone writes me out a check for a million dollars and I refuse it, am I am still a millionaire? Am I millionaire before or after I get it? Well, after of course. I am not a millionaire until I accept the gift.

Which leads me to my main point, why would you give someone something they do not accept? It does not benefit them. It only goes in the trash. Who does that help? It certainly doesn't help the receiver. It might make you feel holy moly for a while, but what did you really achieve? Did you restore your relationship? No, you can't do that because the forgivee does not want your gift.

God has a gift of forgiveness of waiting for us, when we are ready to accept it. But we are not forgiven until we do accept it, and in order to reconcile with God, we must repent. I am not forgiven if I reject said forgiveness, because I am restored to nothing except my own sin.

If you look up the word "forgive" one definition you may get is " To renounce anger or resentment against". I think everyone recognizes the need for this.....especially in the situations that we have all faced.
Holding onto the anger and resentment is something we all tend to do after being betrayed. I think that most any Christian counselor you go to would deal with this issue at one point or another. Some call it dealing with anger, some would call it forgiveness.
I think what we're looking at here is that some of us put reconciling anger under the umbrella of "forgiveness" and some don't, but we all agree that it's a needed thing and it's really for the benefit of the betrayed party.

That's how I see it anyhow.

Nor do I. Heaven is not for those that had their sins forgiven. It is for those that accepted the forgiveness. As you say below...

A lot here. Jesus paid the price for everyone. They are forgiven. As you say here...Christ paid the price for all sins, but in order to receive forgiveness from God, one must REPENT.The forgiver (God) has already offered forgiveness for our sins. Every one of our sins. Even the ones we are yet to commit. Thus, we are sinless...except for those that do not accept His forgiveness...and repent. Those then commit the unforgivable sin...that of the rejection of God's forgiveness thru the act of His Son on the Cross.

This is all true. But again, repentence is about three things: seeing your sin, seeking forgiveness of your sin, and then changing your ways to go and sin no more.

This is an oft quoted text that some use that states that baptism must happen for forgiveness to happen. Which is not true (I know you werent making that argument...I just threw that out there). But it is saying that you must repent (which is the three things I listed above) and then be baptized, in order to get what? The gifts of the Holy Spirit. Now, the Holy Spirit does not save. Jesus did that. So what is this gift? This gift is the Holy Spirit with you so He can guide you through your life.

This is true. You must get rid of that sin to be close to God. So, let's take an example here. Let's say Mortarman, a believer, has decided to have an affair. In direct violation of God's law. I am in rebellion. Now, am I damned to Hell and have lost my salvation because of my insistence to continue living with this woman who is not my wife? If I died right after having SF with her, will I have lost my ticket to Heaven, so to speak? No.

Hebrews 10 goes into this very clearly. And I wont bore most people with the nuiances of that because as Pep has said, we have left the reservation already!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> But the issue is that for the believer, God will let you pay the consequences of your sins on this Earth if you are in rebellion. He will let me get an STD because I am cheating on my wife. He will let me go to jail and be executed because I killed someone. He will let me pay for those.

But the direct question here is...even with my rebellion, and I was a believer before I started my affair...am I damned to Hell if I do not repent of my sin of the affair? Have I lost my salvation?

The answer is...no. I have not. Jesus paid the price for all of my sins once and for all. But even though I accepted Christ at age 15, I still sin. Many times, I had moved far away from him. Was I in jeapordy of losing my salvation? Did I need new forgiveness for my new sins? Or when Jesus said it was finished, He meant it?

No, I believe He paid the price for all of our sins on that Cross.

But the price He did not pay for, the sin He did not pay for...the sin that does send us to Hell, is the rejection of that forgiveness...as you stated above.

Not like cheap candy. It isnt even what I am talking about. I have forgiven the OM. But guess what...he doesnt know it. He moved to Florida and I dont know where he is. I am forgiving him because my thoughts about him, my feelings toward him, keep me from who Christ wants me to be. Forgiveness isnt a feel good lucky charm. It is actually VERY hard!! It is an act of the will, not a feeling. It is just like agape. Agape is an act of the will, not a feeling kind of love.

The point of forgiveness is first and foremost so we can reconcile our relationship with Christ. As long as I harbor anger and resentment toward the Troll, I am not as close to Christ as He wants me to be. We must always think that the relationship with Him is more important than any other relationship. Sure, it is a great gift to another, if they will accept it. And it is not meant to make us feel good. Do you think I feel good about forgiving the Troll? Pulease!! It is like asking me to kiss my grandmother with her teeth out. Yuch! (just kidding grandma!) My preference is to hold onto it, and maybe act upon it if I ever got the chance. No, I forgive the OM because it was keeping me from my relationship with Christ, and was keeping me from reconciling with my wife.

Ahhhh, but you use the wrong analogy. I am not demanding you accept roses and then leaving them in front of your house. What I am doing is stating that in order for you to enter MY house, you must accept my gift. Now that is entirely different.

Again, I think we are not as far away as you are making it. He does offer His forgiveness. He offers it because He has forgiven. He no longer holds those sins against us...any of us. The Christian that dies today no longer has his sins held against him. The atheist that dies today no longer has his sins held against him.

But then, what is hell all about? Hell is about a new sin. The sin of unrepentence. Of not accepting God's forgiveness, that was offered. It is THAT sin that sends you to hell for eternity. Not murder, or adultery or anything else.

In His arms.

Hmmmmmmmmmm ......threadjacking the original poster so far away from the original subject ....makes me wonder ... if he will forgive all this threadjacking????

Ok, MM, I think the issue here is that we are defining forgiveness differently. What you did was simply release your anger towards him - you did that for YOU, not him. That is very different from forgiving him. To forgive is to RESTORE and you are not restored or reconciled to this man. That is because his sin stands between you. And will stand between you until he repents. You did not give HIM a gift, you simply did something to make yourself feel better.

Now, I agree with you 100% that resentment against others interferes with my relationship with God, however, that is easily resolved by releasing my bitterness and anger. One does not have to do an imaginary forgiveness to do that. What I call releasing anger, you are calling "forgiveness." Forgiveness, to me, and the way I view God's standard is to be a GIFT to the receiver for the purpose of RESTORING that relationship. Just as forgiveness is a gift from God designed to restore me to Him. So, I think our main issue here is one of definition.


But you didn't, MM. You said I could have it no matter what. Whether I want it or not. Like you forgave the OM in your life. He didn't have to come in the house and get anything. He doesn't even know about it, like you said. But still, you gave it to him. You dumped it on his porch and he swept it away without ever knowing it was there.

MM, let me ask this another way. Why does God forgive us? Does he do it to make himself "feel better" and "release anger," or does he do it because He wants to restore his relationship with us?

Now, if you answer the latter, my next question is this: how is it possible to restore anything unless there someone willing to forgive and someone wanting to be forgiven? Wouldn't restoration take mutual cooperation?

Ok so I'll ask this again,
Does anyone feel any obligation to reach out to OP in Christ and guide them to what may very well be their last chance at salvation?
Ok, i'm jumping back into my foxhole before RPG's come flying in.
In Christ,
Jerry

Jerry, are you presuming they don't know about Christ and would want your guidance?

Many do Mel,
Much more than you can possibly imagine!
Jerry