I'll try to get a little back to the initial question.

I think of the OPs as terrorists and the WS as someone who negotiates with terrorists. Working together they encourage an environment of escalating death and distruction against marriage. The marriage is held hostage and the WS and OP appease each other just enough so that the marriage isn't killed but it isn't rescued.

Do I loathe the OW? Yes. Golly, I just found out that my 2 year old has called her mom. I feel somewhat better noticing that the same daughter has seen Kevin Sorbo on TV and said, "Where Daddy go?" to realize she throws those words around a little carelessly.

Do I pray for the OW? Yes. I'm not sure who that is going to help more, her or me...

I suppose that is a selfish prayer on some levels because if she changes into a better person she will be less of a threat, and it gives me something to do with my feelings for her, and I think praying against sin is probably a good way to help kill it...

I have a question for the contributors to this interesting thread. With all the theological input it seems as good a place to ask it as any.

FWW’s OMM is an occasional serial philanderer (happens in spurts, it seems). He has shown no remorse whatsoever for the LTA with W. He acted very smug when I confronted him after D-Day 2. He even wanted to shake my hand for being so civil– as if we had been negotiating over a used car.

I don’t think I hate him. But I am indeed very angry with him. I have occasional fantasies of some great harm coming to him, but not necessarily at my hand.

I understand, at least on a general level, the various admonitions and explanations about righteous anger and judgment.

I agree that anger with W must be kept in check in the interest of recovery. I may indeed hold the moral high ground but I should not make hay of it.

I try to imitate Christ in my daily life and I do not want to risk my soul through hatred of any kind. (But it is difficult at times, I must say.)

OMM is not remorseful. He probably does not think about me at all. He has other ongoing A’s and may have more in the future.

Bottom line – I do not want anything to do with him. He disgusts me on a social level and on my own personal level because of what he did to me and my son, and even to W in certain regards. I go out of my way to avoid any chance encounter. NC issues aside, I think this is best for me. He is not a nice person and I don’t think he ever will be.

So, now for the question:

I cannot see me ever accepting his remorse or apology, if it came to that. I am indeed too suspicious of his motives and too angry at him. But, that is in this life.

Let me postulate on his deathbed, with his next to last breath, he asks God for forgiveness for all his sins. Per mainline Christian theology he receives it immediately and gets into heaven with his last breath. He will not have had to atone for anything at all. He will not have had to face those he wronged in any way. It’s quite the get out of jail free card.

But where does that leave me? Looking through my knothole in the here and now, heaven does not appear to be much of a heaven for me if he is there. Would his receiving God’s forgiveness and getting in leave me outside the gate? If he is in heaven, will there be some remote place I can hide in so that I am not aware of him? Or, do I have to reach full forgiveness towards him before I die else I cannot get in myself?

I have been wondering and praying about this lately. But I have not asked any theology expert about it.

Ok, I suppose this question is unanswerable. But I still wonder. In fact, I worry about it.

Aph..I often doubt we'll have any memory of this world. I have no scripture to back that thought but knowing that there will be no sorrow or tears in Heaven, why would we? I think when we get there thoughts of this world would not be important if we were to remember. I believe our focus will be in worship of the Lord.

Let's say he does accept Christ as his Savior on his deathbed. While we escape judgement before God because Jesus bore the burden of our sins, we still have to give account to Jesus for our actions here on earth.

2 Cor 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." (do you hear me quaking in fear?)

So you see nothing we do while here on earth do we escape answering for. What we've done in our lives are tested by fire and the things that are of no value (wood, hay & stubble) are burned up. We receive a crown for the good things we do here on earth that bring glory to God. Those crowns we lay at the feet of Jesus in worship and thankfulness. So you see, it's all about Him. We won't be looking around making sure who wronged us doesn't have much to offer the Lord.

Your salvation doesn't hang on whether you forgive this man. Your salvation depends upon your relationship with Jesus. What you're experiencing is righteous anger and normal. My pastor often says we are not to ask "Why?" but "What?" "What" am I to learn in this situation. Look at this as an opportunity to become more Christ-like but don't expect this to come soon or easily. Search the scriptures, continue to spend time in prayer and look for the answer. It's there.

Thinking about this, I realise that I feel anger at the OWs because they didn't know me. I suspect that sounds topsy-turvy...I wonder if I can explain?

My H cheated on someone he knew. He had to live with the guilt and pain of knowing that he was betraying a good and honest person. On d-day, his primary fear was what everyone would think of a man who would mistreat ME - he knew that no-one would think him justified. Along with the excitement there was the punishment of that guilt and shame.

The OWs did not know me. They assumed a picture of me based on their own fantasies and self-gratification requirements. They encouraged H to denigrate me, despite knowing nothing about me. Had they known me, had they been part of my social world, I think they would have found it far harder to behave in a way that would hurt me, simply because they would have seen that others would not have been sympathetic to those who would harm me. The OWs did not feel that guilt or pain - just as my H did not allow himself to feel the pain of betraying the OWH's; instead, he 'accepted' the OWs' descriptions of their marital disappointments.

To damage someone without ever facing up to the damage done is cowardly, I believe. It is a measure of the destruction of self that has taken place.

TogetherAlone

U raise some very good questions that c/b debated until the end of whatever but one answer is quite simple.

Forgiveness is an action of choice. We are not obligated to forgive every act of sin or unkindness. Neither is God. In fact some acts or sins are not forgiveable.

Now here is the clincher, if a person is not truly repentant or sorry in anyway shape or form that shows 'true repentance', then all acts of forgiveness are for naught. Why? Because when a person says their sorry but continues commiting the wrong or keeps the attitude contributing to the error, then what is there to forgive? Also when a person dies and for those who believe they go to heaven do you really think those s/b allowed to a 'better place' with that type of attitude? Just because a priest or minister says the soul of the departed has gone to a heaven but this soul died with a bad attitude, do you really think he s/b allowed to take his bad attitude to a 'better place'? That w/b similar to giving a theif the keys to your home so he can bring his friends and help himself to your comforts and make your home like the slum where he used to live. Hm...... trying to keep it simple so I will stop for now.

Personally, I don't believe those who are not truly repentant and show it are going anywhere better. Even now. The hard thing is that we don't always really know who is truly repentant and who is not. In time we might but that takes time.

Awwhhh....there is someone who does know. Maybe best to leave it up to him and stay away from those whose characters we doubt.

JMHO,
L.

aph said...

Per mainline Christian theology he receives it immediately and gets into heaven with his last breath. He will not have had to atone for anything at all. He will not have had to face those he wronged in any way. It’s quite the get out of jail free card.

It is my understanding that all Christian sects believe that there is a time of atonement/cleansing upon death before "seeing" God...

atleast that has been my instruction on this issue

ARK

The original question by hurtnheart mentioned nothing about Christianity and judgement. While that may be crucial to some individuals when dealing with feelings toward the OP and the WS, it's not for me. I'm not a Christian. Nor do I see where Dr. Harley's concepts say that Marriage Builders is exclusively a Christian based program for marital recovery.

I'd be interested in hearing from any others re: this subject, who may not approach it from a Christian point of view.

I'd be interested in hearing from any others re: this subject, who may not approach it from a Christian point of view.

approach what exactly

ark

Hello all. Let me start by apologizing for posting and not responding. My time on net is limited due to job and life. I try to read but not able to respond as much as I'd like.

In my original posts, I know everyones views are different and that for some, they have valid reasons for their hatred and views. I was not trying to imply otherwise.

I was just trying to figure out why that same hatred or blame is not thrown towards their spouse.

Yes, the OP is just as guilty, but they have there own demons to work out, some will, some won't. The OP is just as much to blame as my W. My W made the same choice to cheat as the OP. Should the OP have said no? yes, but there was obviously a reason(in his mind) why he didn't. My W shouldn't have as well. So they are both responsible for their actions. But, Is it the OP responsibility for our marriage? As one poster said, society dictates yes for that question. But, not all of society see's everything the same.

I am in no way saying this is right, but, I don't understand the feelings of hate and wanting to hurt or destroy them, without having those same feelings towards one's spouse. This wasn't rape, it was a choice made by two selfish people who don't/didn't respect a marriage.

I am not saying we should control our feelings, I do not know everyones sitch. or anything other than what is written on these boards. I can only go by what is happening to me. My W came on to OMM, He should have said no, She should not have done it. But it happened and it seems to me that most of the weight of salvaging the M is up to BS.

My feelings towards OM are like this, I don't really know him other than meeting him ounce. I have no respect for him as a man or as a father. I do not wish him luck in his job just as I hoped my W job would faulter, but she has since found employment elsewhere, so now half of that scenerio is fulfilled. I have sympathy for his W and kids. Basically, I feel the same for my W as I do him, but I have more of a vested interest in my W, So I try to work on my end.

I do appreciate all who responded, it gave me alot to think about, and I am not trying to diminish anybody's feelings, because we all deal differently.

(Dannigirl, I am trying to get it all. I never expected a response like this, I am floored)

HH,
I think youhit the nail on the head when you said: I am in no way saying this is right, but, I don't understand the feelings of hate and wanting to hurt or destroy them, without having those same feelings towards one's spouse. This wasn't rape, it was a choice made by two selfish people who don't/didn't respect a marriage [quote]
My point exactly from the beggining.
How can true recovery ever take place by trying to surgically remove WS from an act of betrayal that took two consenting adults to take place. I don't think recovery will ever truly take place unless you find a way to forgive both of them! They did not act independent of each other. They Both participated. Forgiveness of our WS cannot take place without forgiveness of both IMHO.
This is an extremely difficult concept, considering how much we would love to hate OP, but to do so would mean you must condemn your WS at the same time. How could it otherwise be?
All blessings in your recovery,
Jerry

The difference in my feelings between my FWH and FOW is that my H is repentant, constantly saying and showing to me how he is sorry about what he did. He also was clear and definite about never contacting her again in his life. Those were the conditions in order to end PLAN B. If he had met these conditions, I probably would continue to feel the same way towards him as I do towards the FOW.

IMHO, she has opportunity to express her apology to me. She very well knows how to contact me. In the last interaction that I know that she had with my H, I heard her beg him to leave me during a conversation in which he was stating his "love" for his "wife".

This seems so obvious to me. I have different feelings towards her because as far as I am concerned she is not at all sorry about what she has done and would do it again. As demonstrated by how she has led her life and probably continues to lead her life, she does not believe in marriage or fidelity.

TogetherAlone, it's interesting how you feel anger at the OWs because they didn't know you. In my case I feel enormous anger and hurt because the oW did know me. She knew me and my boys for 4 years. She knew that we had experienced 3 deaths in 8 months when she actively pursued H. She knew when she was "F"ing my H that my dad was very ill. When she wrote H a letter describing the "shivers" she got from a sexual encounter, I was going to the hospital twice a day to be with my dad. It bothers me more than anything that she knew me.

Mimi, I can totally relate to you. I'm not sure our OW is evil necessarily, just incredibly selfish and a little twit. She wanted what she wanted, and didn't give a sh** about our family. H played guitar at this church, which wasn't our regular parish, so I wasn't always with him. Our OW actually joined the church, would sit in the congregation, go to communion, and then maybe have alone time with H afterwards. Several of her cards were religious and she wrote about how God brought them together. Nice, huh? The difference between her and H is that he did feel guilt. When he expressed this to her she would tell him they were not having an A because they were "in-love". H has told me as the fog lifted that evil disguises itself as something good. He thought he was a better person with her, and yet he became so low.

Mel, in the book "Forgive and Forget" the author states forgiveness can happen without the other person's input. I think for reconcialiation to occur their needs to be remorse and the asking for forgiveness from the offender. It always bothered me in "Surviving an Affair" that Dr. Harley states remorse isn't necessary to rebuild after an A. I couldn't stand that one unremorseful WS (Sue?) in that book. I know for me H and I wouldn't be together still if he wasn't truly remorseful.

Personally I don't know what I need to do regarding OW. I want to get her out of my head and out of our M. I want to become totally indifferent to her. I don't want to feel hurt anymore that this person who knew me, this fellow woman and human being, could have been so cruel and caused so much damage because of her desires. I want to get the friggin OW off of my back for me. I don't have any desire to forgive her. Any way to get her off my back without forgiving her? CV

CV:

Pep suggested a helpful strategy that works for me everytime. I don't know if this fits for you or not. Often during SF with my FWH I get great satisfaction out of not only the encounter with my H but also out of blowing her completely out of his mind, if you know what I mean.

As I grow in my own personal recovery, I am beginning to feel so much more powerful and better than her an all ways. She can not ever catch up with me in wisdom and virtuosity. She is a peon. I am a queen.

Strive towards being the PROVERBS 31 woman that you are CV...

I had a bad day mentally anyway. I could not get OM off of the mind. not sure if it is because of this thread or not.
was thinking of the reasons why I should hold him responsible. But it always came back to my W.
Just a confusing day.

Just wrote a 30 min post to you only to have it deleted my crapiness of this new forum!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
To try c to recap what i said, You wiil never be able to seperate the anger and resentment you feel towards OP and WW unless there is forgiveness of both !
This is exactly what I was trying to say to you much earlier in this thread. I know, I've been there!
When you allow yourself to dwell on OP and hated, anger , resentment, etc,, it will inevitably transfer to your WW because she is tho one who is in front of you trying to live her life with you. OM couldn't care less.
You must find a way to release the Om from your marriage, lest he infect your recovery and restoration with WW.
I did a symbolic thing where, I held 2 helium balloons. One being my wife, the other being OM. I untangled the strings and released Om into the atmosphere. He disappered and I drew the other balloon to my heart. May sound crazy but it did help.
Forgivness comes in all shapes and sizes, but if you did just one little thing to forgive OM it will go along way.
God knows what you're been through! He will sure bestow many graces to you and wife by just trying to forgive OM
All Blessings,
Jerry

I go back and forth about dealing with anger, blame, forgiveness, etc. when it comes to my xWS and his OW. The thing that touches me the deepest, however, is that a very innocent child was born as a result of this relationship. He will have to deal with the legacy that each of us adults contribute to this situation. In that I've had contact with him, I am challenged to release some of my anger towards his mother (the OW) and my WS, in attempts of not allowing any of it to be directed to this sweet little one. I didn't choose the situation that created him. But I can choose to help him feel loved. He has Down Syndrome, so I already know that the world will be a greater challenge for him.

I look at him and am reminded that we all started out as innocent little babies who just wanted to love and be loved. Most of us got wounded one way or another along the way. I don't know why some go on to make healthier more healing choices, and others sink deep into the trauma, shut down to love, and pass the woundings on to others. I choose to keep this in my awareness when dealing with my feelings around the affair. It doesn't stop me from having the feelings. I'm fully entitled to them. I think they are part of the healing process. But I do my best not to wallow in them. My healing, my desire to love and be loved, works better for me when I can find forgiveness for others and their faults, sins, errors, mistakes,evils, etc. It's one heck of a challenge! But I choose it.

I have realized that my feelings/thoughts are pretty much the same towards both. but I just see my W everyday and am forced to deal with my emotions w/ her. And, since I do not see om at all, it easier for me to put the anger for him out of my mind. If I had to see him, I think I would feel differently. I really fill pity for his family,not him.
just as I feel sorry for my family, not so much for the W.
Is this wrong?

and OT for a minute, how long before I might expect to gain some of the respect for my W that I lost?

I am angry at my H. I know that he was the one that cheated on me. He is the one that is married to me. However, she was the one that knew he was married and continued to see and sleep with him. She also lied to me when she said she wouldn't see him again and a few days later he was back at her apt.

Another part to this is because most of us want to get back with our spouse so sometimes it's easier to be angry at the OP.