I have been lurking on these boards for well over a year and have gained a wealth of knowlege from the wonderful people on this site all of whom I would like to thank.
I have been living with my BF who is also the father of my 2 year old son for well over 2 years now and we are now discussing marriage. He has indicated that he would like us to sign a pre-nup before the wedding and I have to say that I was rather surprised by that request. We both have advanced degrees he in a more lucrative field with a potential to earn a higher income than me over time. I also have an advance degree but have opted to work for a smaller company for lower pay but one that gives me much more flexiblity to take care of our child as needed. Before we got together, we both owned our own houses but we are currently living in my house and renting out his house.
I guess what I am looking for is your views on prenuptials and what you think about his request. Let me also add that we have quite differing views on finanical matters, he being of the opinion that we should "deny" ourselves while we are young so that we can retire early and comfortably. I on the other hand believe that we should be able to enjoy the fruits of our labor while we are still young while still saving some for the future. Other than the mortgages on both homes, we are both debt free and own our automobiles free and clear. The thought of discussing the "possibility" of divorce while at the same time discussing our wedding is a major LB for me and I would like to know what you all think about it.

Well, this is your first opportunity to practice the policy of joint agreement. After all, you don't have to sign a document unless you are in agreement with its provisions. If he just hands you a prenup and says "Take it or leave it", I'd leave it, and him. OTOH, if he is open to negotiating an agreement that you both consider fair, either by yourselves or with the help of attorneys, I'd say go ahead. After all, this can be a document that protects you and your son in case of a divorce. It doesn't have to work against you.
If I were in your position, what I would want to do is have each of us be represented by our own attorney, so that I'd know my interests were represented, his interests were represented, and that the agreement would stand up in court. I'd make sure the agreement covered things like what both of you agree to as to a parent (and who) staying home with kids when they are young (or not), private vs public school for kids, or who eventually pays for college, if that's legally possible to do in a prenup in your state.

But I'm not an attorney so keep that in mind.

Elspeth, thanks for your response, you have brought up some very interesting points some that I had not even considered. I am looking for more information on what should or should not be included. He is very sensitive about my view of the whole pre-nup thing and is trying to convince me that this is for the good of us all. According to him, he prefers to deal with the issues now than wait for the state to determine who gets what. while I somewhat agree with his approach, I still feel that it puts a negative tone to the whole "wedding planning" phase. I would also like to add that recently, one of his close friends went through a very ugly divorce where he has been forced to pay large (or what appears to be large) sums of money to his ex for support so I tend to think that part of the reason why he's insisting on the pre-nup could be driven by his friends experience. Please give me more ideas on how to approach this very sensitive matter.

Well, he's already approached the matter, so how sensitive can it be? You have your opening-tell him you have been thinking about his suggestion that the two of you draw up a pre-nup agreement and that you need more information. You might want to ask what kinds of things he sees being covered in a pre-nup, if he has already consulted an attorney or plans to do so, whether he realizes that you might want your own attorney to negotiate for you and how he feels about that. Take some time on your own to figure out just what information you do want from him at this point about his plans, expectations and feelings, and then ask him-and listen as non-defensively as possible. Ask him if that situation affected his thinking-don't just guess.

This situation is going to be the template for how you handle negotiations and money matters throughout your marriage. How do you want those things to be handled? However you want that to be, do your best to bring that about now.

Good idea to have your own attorney represent your interests.

I could see an agreement that would protect the value of the equity/investments with which you both enter the marriage.

Once married, anything earned by either of you should be considered as belonging to both of you. I do not believe in separate accounts. It may be best to sell both houses and purchase one home in both of your names.

You build your lives together once you marry. You should close any separate accounts...unless possibly an inheritance.

I may be inclined to put in a clause, if legal in your state, to punish financially either spouse who causes a divorce due to infidelity. But this is from hindsight.
It may cause either of you to think twice before compromising your vows.

Maybe there were some advantages to entering a marriage with nothing and starting from there.

I hope you can be pragmatic with this and handle it with POJA. I hope it can be written in such a way as to protect both of you as well as your child(ren) and not be a big negative.

Know what, having been married a good long time now, my views about a prenup have changed.

I used to be strongly opposed to a prenup ... because it was not romantic.

But guess what?

it turns out ....

most things in marriage are not romantic but very very practical

I really like the advice/comments you've gotten so far...

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

What would either of you be protecting with a pre-nup?

Chris,
That is a very good question. Since this is his idea, I am very anxious to see what it is he has in mind. Part of the reason why we were both attracted to each other was because we are both very independent and reasonably responsible people so it was quite a surprise when he sprung this up on me. We have scheduled a time this weekend to talk a little more about it as I told him it would be difficult for me to tell him what I think about it until I see exactly what he is proposing. I am hoping our meeting this weekend will shed some light on your question Chris. Personally I do not have anything I am trying to protect, from my perspective we are both bringing in an equal amount into the marriage and any additional wealth or lack thereof that is gained in the marriage should be marital property. I have a strong feeling he wants to keep all our finances seperate as he feels that the fact that he makes reasonably more than me he should be able to keep all of it, but I will take Elspeth's advice and not speculate until I know exactly where he is coming from. I will keep you posted on that bit, I am hoping we have a productive meeting this weekend.

I, like Pep, have changed my view about pre-nups - especially after participating in this forum for so long and after having gone through a divorce.

If I marry again, I'll have one. I hear the naysayers - and this is the way I used to look at it - that a pre-nup equates to mistrust from the git go. I don't have a ready rebuttal to that other than yep, the future cannot be predicted.

I'll up the ante and advocate for "post-nups" - financial protection for a BS upon the "return" of a WS. Any infidelity by either party in the future and the BS can option to take all jointly held assets.

So, I recommend you implement the policy of joint agreement and throw into the pre-nup provisions that in the case of infidelity that results in divorce that the BS takes all. Place some hard currency value on monogamy.

I happen to share your husband's view that you ought to place more emphasis on saving rather than spending. This comes from experience. I bet I have t-shirts older than you. This doesn't mean you have to be a pauper. In addition to being able to potentially retire sooner and better, you can be better prepared for unforeseen life crises. This comes from experience as well.

WAT
-------------------
Why is youth wasted on the young?

I agree with pre-nups whole heartedly with second marriages in which children from prior relationships are involved...

the pre-existing children and their access to parents assetts should be both new spouses first interest...

pre-nups with first marriages...don't sit to well with me...but that's just me....

here's what struck me with your post...

Let me also add that we have quite differing views on finanical matters, he being of the opinion that we should "deny" ourselves while we are young so that we can retire early and comfortably. I on the other hand believe that we should be able to enjoy the fruits of our labor while we are still young while still saving some for the future.

this may be the key and root to your bargaining tool...and this sounds like an issue that can be worked on together with mutual goals....

I lately have become hooked on Dave Ramsey....a money counselor who is all about living debt free...nothing but a house payment...huge savings...and paying the house off ASAP....

I love listening to his show...and I love the idea of living debt free...his motto is live like no one else...so you can live like no one else...

He has steps and plans to get you there....
and it is amazing how much you can do for an intense period to meet the goals of having much money...

If you work together on this plan..of 'denying yourself' for a set time period the payoff might be what both of you are looking for....

and it might be a real team building catalyst....

I think it is a noble goal to build stability and wealth...and doing it together can be a bigger payoff than enjoying to the point of debt...

explore this issue a little with him..and if you can show some flexibility it might decrease his fear of thinking he wants a pre-nup

ARK

well friends, the jury is out.. we had our meeting as planned and just like I thought he wants to keep everything seperate. He was very specific about his goal of being finacially independent and does not want anything including the possibility of a divorce to "derail" his goal of retiring comfortably. To that end here are the specifics of what he is proposing:-
All assets acquired before and after the marriage be kept seperate. This will include all savings, retirement and investment accounts. We do have joint accounts that we contribute specific amounts for the day to day expenses and those will remain in both our names. He also wants to keep all household items separate such that if we ever had to go our separate ways, there would be no question who owns what.
For those that have been married for a long time, is this type of arrangement even feasible? If we are carrying on such separate lives, what is the benefit of being married anyway. Besides his views on money, he is a wonderful father to our child and if nothing else I want to ensure that he stays a part of my childs life. Please let me know what you think of this arrangement. Thanks

He also wants to keep all household items separate such that if we ever had to go our separate ways, there would be no question who owns what.
For those that have been married for a long time, is this type of arrangement even feasible?

[color:"blue"]No.

Who's going to shell out the $$$ for the new washing machine?

And if YOU shell out the $$$ for the new washing machine ... is your H gonna use it free of charge ?

And if you divorce you get to keep the (now used) washing machine, but it's value has depreciated and your H has gotten his clothes washed for free .... unless you charge him the going rate he'd pay at a laundrymat.


This plan has disaster written all over it.

Is there some sort of provision for shared items???? What if you get sick or disabled and you have huge medical costs.... would he contribute?

hmmmmmmmmmm

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />[/color]

Have you ever watched the movie The Joy Luck Club based on the book by Amy Tan?

Go rent it..... you'll see.

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi cliffhanger,

You've received some great advice thus far but I am curious: what were your BF's past relationships like? Do you know? How about his parents? Based on what you said I think there is more going on than just money here.It's one thing to want to protect yourself in the future if you have many assets and wealth but it all sounds more like an ultimatum.He sounds more interested in his own protection.It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth that this is how the potential marriage may begin.How does this make you feel that everything is the house would be already separated and not "YOURS" as a couple? It seems odd to me.

I think the bottom line here is,and it may have already been eluded to: there is nothing wrong with protecting yourself and being financially sound.There are far too many new bankruptcies in this country each year as it is BUT,I always say there has to be compromise in every situation or one person is going to feel slighted or even worse.That is not the best way to handle any situation if it's "My way or the highway" attitude.

I would also hasten to add that you should not feel pressured into any agreements until you have all the pertinent facts and you feel comfortable about everything.Take your time.

Lastly,your choice to be at a certain company to be home raising your child more than your BF, if married, should not preclude you from receiving benefits should you one day D.Just one aspect about keeping everything separate that doesn't sit well with me.As is,I would not agree to what your BF has stated.

O

so is he gonna pay you to clean the house and cook and do all the wonderful stuff moms and wives do??? and do you pay him for mowing the lawn??

im gonna ask....wat...what would your pre-nup look like? maybe she will get an idea or two from you?