Thanks guys.
I don't know how well I'm doing, but I'm trying to navigate all of this...

I (stupidly) have pretended to go along with her "fix this" plan. Basically I'm sick of getting yelled at so I said I'd make a few calls. (I'm sure that I'll get a 2x4 for this)
I only called one person, and she was glad that the guy got fired. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This led to something interesting... Wife is trying to bargain with me... She made me an offer... If I can get this "fixed" she and baby will move back until the divorce is final. Kind of a strange offer, right? Does it mean that she wants to be back in some way, or just that she can't find an apartment? In addition to her strange "bargain" she said that she also had her lawyer draw up the divorce papers this way too. (She hasn't signed them yet though)

Well, whatever I do, I know that it's not in my power to get the guy's job back anyway.

So, I think I have figured out what is going on with Wife & YGuy. He says that they will "have a future" if he gets his job back, but that if he has to leave town to find new work, he won't take her with him. So, that is why she is so frantic that I work to get him his job back.

We also discussed Daughter's lodging. I will take her tomorrow.

Ugh, what a messed up life.

Gramm, your W oddly thinks that she is in a position to bargain. She is not. Please disabuse her of the silly notion that you are obligated in any way to help the OM "save" the job he lost. He lost the job all on his own and it doesn't help that you continue to accept blame for this.

Stop this nutty charade, please. She is trying to save her affair and you shouldn't even PRETEND to be helping her.

Simply decline her offer, tell her you have no obligation to help the man who is trying to destroy your family, nor will you help her get a divorce. If she wants to move out, she is a free woman and is free to go.

See, she doesn't really want to go anywhere, but is hoping she can get a bargaining advantage by doing what she was going to do anyway: stay home. Tell her you pass on that "bargain" and see how quick she changes her tune. She is just trying to manipulate you.

I very much agree that you should take your daughter. She needs to be in her own home. Do you have someone who can watch her during the day?

I still have a lot of problems with the daughter parts of the plan. I do NOT have anyone to watch her during the day. (That was Wife's job) I'd have to hire a day care or something.
Maybe if I was unemployed like MM was, the situation would be different. I'll see my lawyer thursday and see what I can do.

It's pure fantasy, but it would be funny if I could get the guys job back, but only on the condition that he end it... That would be great irony.

Gramn -

I agree with Melody. To put it very bluntly (I learned that from Mel), your wife has no interest in you or her family right now, and no interest in the marriage.

She is desperate to hang onto Y-Guy. That is the only thing she is thinking about.

If he leaves his wife and goes somewhere else for a job (though I doubt he will), what has his wife and family lost? Nothing. He and your wife were planning their future WITHOUT you or his family.

They are both desperate now. They realize that their affair cannot continue. Please stop feeling sorry, going along with her desires, and blaming yourself.

**snort** that is brilliant! Please tell her this! Say that you will "do what you can" [and there is nothing you can do] to get his job back when he ends his affair with her. lol <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I can't believe she is talking smack on me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It really makes me mad and frustrated with you for even considering agreeing to a bargain to try and get Y-guys job back. That is just about the most ridiculous thing I've read. You really need to buck up here.

You sound so wimpy when you agree to help their A continue...which is just what she wants you to do. If you could only hear how stupid it sounds. Are you on the side of your M or the A...sometimes I wonder?

It seems like you feel incapable of really caring for and making the right decisions for your daughter....in spite of her mother's decisions. You need to secure some kind of day care options and free her to leave or make the choice to end her A and work on your marriage.

She really needs to feel the consequenses of her actions. I am so glad that Y-guy lost his job. I really hope he and his wife draw closer together because of it.

Please listen to MM and Mel...they have been giving you such good advice.

Yep Mel, remember when I was stuggling with all of this stuff? It took you awhile, but you got me thinking right again.

Sorry for the TJ Gramn, but we all are just wanting to help you.

Gramn:

I just KNOW that others have had to have warned YOU of the entire WS "bag of tricks" and manipulation.

First line of defense: Lies and secrecy.
(What you don't know, you can't fight or complain about, Right?).

Next:
Once you actually Discover the A:
Then its TIME to "blame YOU" ...after all to the infidels, EVERYTHING MUST be YOUR FAULT.
{All of the rewriting of history and "self" justifications occur here too}.

Then its time to move on to using ANGER/RAGE in an attempt to kowtow you into submission.

Soon behind,
the outright Threats begin to come, all done with the Goal for them to Get their way & retain Control of the situation.

If you happen to be strong enough to stand up to that angle:
Then its time to change tactics and use Guilt and misguided sympathy to Sway you to "their" way of thinking.

Once that well runs dry ......its time to really start scrapping the bottom of the Barrel and begin the Bargaining and Negotiating Phase.

Does even a little of this sound familiar??

From what you've just posted;
Looks like you've pretty much reached that part of the GAME.

So you see,
this "song & Dance" is rapidly Running its Course !

Your sooo close to coming out ahead,
so don't make the MISTAKE of Folding a winning hand ........just cause your WW may have a better "poker face" than you do.

Yes, I realize that the high stress and constant anxiety makes it seem like "giving in" (even if just a little) seems like the EASIER [and frankly more comfortable choice] at this stage.

However, rest assured That ITS NOT !

Gramn,
We understand: (really WE DO):
Your Emotionally drained ......your Tired of the Fighting .....your thinking "Lord, how much MORE of this can I take"??

But your Doing it my man.
YOU REALLY ARE!

Stick to your Plan.
IT's not your ONLY option ......but it is your BEST OPTION .

WE are proud of your resolve and your actions.
YOU Begin TAKING some Pride in them TOO!!!!!

Hang in there partner.
YOU CAN MAKE IT!

Thanks everyone. I just woke up. I had flopped on my bed at about 8:30 and just woke up now (at midnight). Mental exhaustion anyone?

I know that I can do better at this. I'll just have to keep trying.

Gramn - You are doing just fine. You are very early in this. In fact you are doing much better than most. Please get some much needed rest.

I guess I've had a good morning so far.

(Besides getting new brakes on my car) I talked to Wife on the phone. I told her that I have no interest in helping with YGuy's job situation unless she breaks up with him. That freaked her out. She said that I was "killing her". She pleaded, and begged and cried. She tried to threaten me, so I hung up on her. She called back and I said that I "won't respond to threats" Then I wanted to talk to my daughther and she said no. So I hung up again. So she called back and I talked to her.
-------------------------
OK, while writing this message, I got another call. She called and said "You win! He doesn't want to see me any more!" (So get his job back)

Ugh....

I think that last phone call she was bluffing. You know those WS, they have a tendancy to not tell the truth !! Please do not make any phone calls for YGuy quite yet.
Remember, time is on your side. This will work out Gramn, but not just yet. Be smart, hon.

(((( Gramn ))))

Car

It seems pretty obvious that her last call was a lie...manipulation. I don't think you should have said you'd help out if they broke up. Crazy.

Just stand firm for your marriage....not the A.

You can do this.

(((Gramm)))

Consistancy and honesty are EXTREMELY important. IMHO, the statement you made was neither and she called you on it. That's not the script.


If it is true, that he's broken it off then she's frantically trying to reestablish her relationship with him by rationalizing, if he gets his job back then everything will go back to normal.

Gramm, let me echo everyone by saying that you are doing a great job, sure you could use a little tweaking sometimes, but overall you are doing wonderful. If you are able to stay on script, you'll see that as MM points out she'll stay on script and go right through the phases of withdrawal and grief with you......

Bravo (Mortarman standing at attention...clapping)!! You handled that like a pro!!

Do you see?? Can you see the power shift? You hold ALL of the cards now...and she knows it. Shoot, she thinks you hold cards that you might not even have (she has no idea what info you have, how you are getting intel or what your next move is). You now have firm control over this situation. This has to be a record here on MB on how fast Plan A/exposure has worked and BS gained control.

Look at how you set boundaries "I will nto respond to threats." Look at how you handled her feeble attempts to manipulate you...she wanted to keep daughter from you and you hung up...she called back and let you talk to her. I have to say...I am impressed!!

She said you are killing her. If this isnt direct evidence that she is an addict, I dont know what is. She needs her fix, she wants her fix...and you wont help her get it. And it is painful (do not take that as sarcasm...it is painful...ask any FWS on here!!).

You must be VERY even handed now, Gramn. No explosions. No threats. No throwing A in her face. Everything is matter of fact. Here are some examples.

"Honey, you must end this relationship with him for good before anythign positive can happen here."

"Daughter will be staying at our home from now on. You are welcome to stay or go...but she will stay in her home, in her bed."

"I do love you, and it pains me to see you hurting. I am and will be here for you once you have ended this relationship."

"I am willing to do whatever it takes to make our marriage what we had both hoped for and deserved. I believe we can finally have that."

And so on. Any threats by her, and actions by her should be taken absolutely seriously. If she says "I am going to courthouse tomorrow to file..." then believe her. Just say "Okay. I cannot stop you. I will contact my attorney to tell him to prepare for your motion. I do not want this, WW. I am here for you and for our daughter. I pray that you will see what I see."

She is headed to detox. It is painful. The fantasy is OVER!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Her actions and words will get all the more kooky as she thrashes around in this mess.

Remain calm and resolute. Be even handed and matter-of-fact. When you say something to her, say it as if it came straight from the word of God. Even if you may be bluffing some. She will have no idea. She wont trust anyone, including her attorney. So if you say that daughter is staying at home and that you are prepared to make sure that happens...she may have other people telling her differently...but she will be scared that you just may be right.

Gramn, always balance every conversation with boundaries and love. Set the boundaries, and then keep repeating the script about how much you love her and want your family whole again. Dont talk in long sentences. She does nto have the ability to remember all of that right now. Keep your message simple, and keep repeating it over and over. Always the same answer to any of her manipulations, threats, enticements, etc. As you beat this script down into her fog-bound mind, it will start to shine thru the darkness. She will see you standign there as a rock...not moving. Impervious to her threats and to her betrayal. And she will draw near your strength.

By the way, you ladies can help me out here...but I have heard that a man that can stand there and take the heat...and stand his ground...is quite sexy to the ladies!! I am sure this will be the beginning of your wife feeling those "tingly" feelings for you again.

Gramn, you deserve a medal. You have moved to the head of the class. it took me months to decide to do what you have done and more months to actually do it right. Again, I am impressed.

In His arms.

I do agree with others that you have to be very consistent. Do not say ANYTHING that isnt true or you do not mean. It only helps the WW if she discovers you are lying or dont mean what you say.

Be the rock.

In His arms.

I do mean that I would help the guy get his job back if it is over. I would not have said it otherwise. But, someone had a good point. She could be lying (or even lying to herself).

---------------------
Here is another issue...
In reading a number of "Surviving Affair" and "Divorce Busting" type of books, I have been learning various things.

From what I have read, saying things like this is is a No NO...


Basicaly, the idea is that you don't want to pressure them. Sure, my actions can show that I am there for them and that I do loving things, but saying "I Love you and you should come back" will just push her away. Remember, she was not even very interested in working on our relationship BEFORE this affair started...

One more quick dynamic here...

When you hung up on her, and she immediately called back and gave you what you wanted (to talk to your daughter, for example), you revealed something there Gramn.

First, she has no idea what you know or what you can or will do. So, when you matter-of-factly just hang up, or say "Sorry, I will not do that...Goodbye..." she is forced to believe what? She believes that you are doing something or are going to do something...that you have power. This is what I was eluding to about bluffing. It isnt lying. Never do that. It is acting in a way where she will think you are more powerful than you are. When you walk around acting like you have 10,000 soldiers on your side, theenemy may think twice before coming over the hill and taking you on. Now, you might have 10,000 soldiers on the other side of that hill. You might only have 1000. But, if you ACT like you have 10,000....many times, that is enough.

When you hung up, you sent the message to your wife that she has no power over this situation anymore, that yo uare no longer going to take her betrayal and immoral behavior...and you have made her think that you do indeed have the power to do many things, whether that power is real or not.

Wnat an example? Through your letters, in yoru wife's mind...you got the OM fired. This is from the job where she met him. The allure of him was probably surrounded by the fact that he was the big man there...everyone kissed his butt. And here is my husband, the man I held little respect for...who in a flick of a pen, brought down my "soulmate." How small do you think that makes the OM look in her eyes? How BIG do you think that makes you in her eyes?

And that is why I say that she (and him) are runnign around wondering "what's next?" That is why you never answer the question "What else do you plan on doing?" Instead, you just let it go unanswered. You just look at her, and then go right back to the script. She will think "Why wont he answer the question? What is he upto?" But all she will hear is "Honey, that is not important. What is important is that you end this relationship and you and I get counseling and seek help in repairing our marriage and family."

I hope you can see this. Power projection, even when you have little...can bring amazing results.

In His arms.

Great posts and advise as usual, MM.

Gramn,
I suspect it was an EA long before you believe the PA started.

I don't think that the way MM worded his suggested 'script' it doesn't sound like it is pressuring. That was different than the way you said it.

It is sexy to stand up as MM suggested.