We're married 5 yrs with a 2 yr old daughter.
I work full time and do freelance work to make ends meet
She stays w baby, exercises at the Y, and works some evenings.

She has been increasingly unhappy no matter how hard I try to please her. She has been uninterested in sex and I'm unhappy too.

Now she says that she has lost that "Spark" making her "in Love" with me. She says she still loves me, but not in that way.

I love her, and think that we can work out these problems and get back to being "in love". She doesn't think that the "spark" is something that can be controlled or regained. She's currently not willing to try and reconsile this.

Now she wants to seperate. She had me move out of our bedroom into the office. She wants us to get seperate places, but we can't afford that.
We're going to some counciling session, which may be good, but she is not at all currently willing to reconcile.

---------------------------
Which leads me to this...

People online suggested that she is cheating. I had NOT suspect that but I did some checking.

I found 3 emails from a guy at the Y to her guy. She is very involved in the Y, so this doens't mean much. They said nothing specific either.

I found that she had looked up articles online about "cheating"

SHe has also recently lost weight and switched to newer lingerie.

The big thing was she has this new birthcontrol (Vaginal Film) that she bought after the last time we slept togehter. I checked and 3 were missing.
-----------------------
Last Night, I confronted her, very mad.

She showed me the Birth control instructions: they tell you to test it a few times, because it's difficult to insert. And admitted that she had thought about cheating (because she's already unhappy) but hadn't done anything.

She was also really mad that I looked at her stuff. Then she took our baby and went to a friends house for a few hours. I don't know that her angry reaction means much. She has always had a temper and gotten angry easilly.

She claims that she has just been thinking in general about finding someone else because she's unhappy. I'm sure that I have thought that too at times. I don't really blame her for thinking that. (Of course, I'm against it!) SO, I ended up looking like a paranoid idiot.

So, there are signs of an affair, but nothing concrete.
-------------
What should I do to solve this and get my marriage back on track?
HOW do I confront her, if necessary?

She sounds very defensive - I believe that when people have nothing to hide, they don't care if you go snooping around. If she is prepared to go to counselling with you, that is a very positive move. TT

GRAMM:

She does fit the script of a WAYWARD WIFE.

Read up on the MB Basic Concepts especially PLAN A.

Don't agree to a separation.

Move back into your bedroom.

Continue to talk about how you want to reconcile your marriage. Stick with this regardless of what she says and does.

Keep coming back to talk to the folks here. We can help you. We have been through this, too.

I'll try and find the book. (I've read His Needs Her Needs)

Can I get a synopsis of "Plan A"??

Gramm, Mimi is right, move back into your bedroom now. If she wants to seperate, then make her do the work. No in-house "seperations."

Plan A is basically this: trying your best to meet her needs, avoiding lovebusters and doing everything in your power to bust up the affair, if there is one. I suspect she is having an affair. All the classic symptoms are there. But, don't accuse her, just start snooping. Start with putting a Radio Shack recorder on your phone and some spyware on your computer. If she has a cell phone, go online and look at her bill to see who she is talking to.

But, first things first, get back in your bedroom!

I don't want her to leave because she would take my daughter if she tried to move out somewhere...

I'm not big on sleeping in the guest room, but before I agreed to that, she had been sleeping in a chair every night.

Gramm, if she wants to take your daughter, you tell her no. You are a parent also.

If she wants to sleep on a chair that is her decision, but you are hurting yourself by agreeing to move out of your bedroom. If she wants to seperate, then you should not protect her from the consequences of her choices.

Gramn,
Listen very carefully to the wise people here on this site.
They KNOW from whence they speak.
Classic signs and symptoms all seem to be be in place. Don't sit back and wallow in your anger, which is a natural reaction. You've got to be proactive, RIGHT NOW, before it goes any further!
If you have seen E-Mails that make you suspicous, find out the nature and content of these.
One of the most hard concepts to understand at times, is the gut feeling that something like infidelity could possibly take place in your marriage. That's why when it happens, we are in shock and disbelief.
Time to act! Find out who OM on e-mail is. Read everything on this site about infidelity. Read HN/HN. Find out what's lacking in your marriage that created this atmosphere. Another great book is "Not Just Friends" by Shirlee Glass.
Get busy! It's time to save your marriage!
Jerry

OK, suppose I come up with more evidence of an affair...
How much evidence do I need??

What do I do? calmly confront her? Confront the guy? I thought she would tell me the truth yesterday, but that didn't work at all. I think no matter what I do, she will be defensive...

You need evidence that it is TRUE, thats how much evidence you need. And that is why I suggested tapping your phone and computer and looking at her cell phone bill. If that doesn't clear her, then hire a P.I.

DO NOT confront her until you have evidence and quit asking her about it. She will not likely bust herself so that is a waste of time. Just quietly check up on her.

And move back in your room tonight!

Well, yet again, I'm not sure what to think.
I snooped more and bugged the computer (which makes me feel like a real [censored])

The online phone records and the calls in her cell phone were not suspicious at all.

She moved her cell phone charger over by her bed, which I thought was suspicious, but she was waiting for a late night call from her friend/confidant, which she got.

Why? It's your computer. You can do what you want to do with it.



You can't be sure who she was really talking to, can you? Did you listen to the conversation or did she leave the room?

Sniff, sniff, I smell an affair.

Think of the men your wife knows - it is usually a friend of the husband or family, a neighbor, a workmate, an old love, or someone involved in the same sports, activities.

Can you think of anyone?

ditto this advice

It's very likely - based on your description so far - that she is already in an affair. Just assume she is and continue being watchful.

I suggest that you act as if her explanations satisfied you. Play the fool. WSs easily convince themselves that they're pulling the wool over everyone's eyes and eventually get careless. She will likely accidently reveal it herself even if you don't snoop. But snoop you must.

Even if she's not in an affair, Plan A will pay dividends for your marriage and yourself.

Here's my canned description of Plan A:

Also read the link in my sig line below.

Whatever you do, DO NOT agree to any separation. She may choose to separate unilaterally. If so, communicate to her that you do not desire this and separation is counterproductive to improving a marriage. But you can't make her stay. If she threatens to take your child, get an attorney FAST and tell us here. We can assist you with how to handle that.

I get the point. Improve yourself...
What does "BS" stand for?


She is currently OK to have us in the same house, but would take the baby if I forced her out.

I don't want to drive her away. Wouldn't fighting over the baby just create more problems?

BS = betrayed spouse >> you
WS = wayward spouse >> her

You should not force her out. NO, NO, NO. Besides, you probably can't. Likewise, she can't force you out.

Neither of you "takes" the baby. The minute she threatens this, you get an attorney - if not sooner. Fighting over the baby IS a problem. Hopefully you won't have to. But if she leaves with the baby, she has started the problems. At that point, you are trying to minimize the problem for the baby. What do you mean, "OK"?

Are you inferring that she thinks she has an option?

Under no circumstances do you agree to leave the house, OK? NONE! PERIOD! If she asks you to, just calmly decline saying that you have no intention of leaving your family and that would be counterproductive to improving your marriage.

WAT

Gramm,

I would very much concentrate on the guy at the Y. Find out his name and if he is married.

Maybe start going to the Y with her, telling her that you really need to get in shape too! I would think she would love your company.....unless it will hinder her contact with Yguy.

k

Oh, I know Y Guy...
He is the ADMINISTRATOR at this Y!
I have his name, email, phone number and address. I also know his wife's name!

I don't have a Y membership. I doubt that they would do anything in public though. She has lots of friends there who would not all keep quiet. Also, she visits the Y while I'm at work, so I probably wouldnt catch anything by signing up anyway.

I still have no "proof", but you've gotta see my latest evidence...

So, yesterday I installed a spyware program...
Here is what I found. She had apparently just set up a new email account! My hacking allowed me to take a look...
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------

Subject: Bye
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 11:57:55 -0400
From: "Y Guy" <....org>
To: "Wife" <....com>

Have a good time while I am gone, think of me often! I’ll see you bright and early Monday morning.

Y Guy
--------------------------------------------------------------



Subject: RE: email
Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 06:57:12 -0400
From: "Y Guy" <....org>
To: "Wife" <....com>

I got in early this morning and put the Lisa Loeb CD in just as the sun was coming up. Yes, “IF” it is, I will wander for you.

Y Guy


-----Original Message-----
From: wife [mailto:....com]
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 6:19 PM
To: Y Guy
Subject: email



this one's just for you...

------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
What do you think of them apples?!?

I am so pissed! For now, I'll hold in my rage and gather more information. How much info do I need? When I do confront her, how should I do it?

Also, "Y Guy" has a wife. Should I call her at some point??

First of all, please read WAT's Quick Start Guidelines for Betrayed Spouses and follow the instructions to the letter.



Yes, for an important part of Plan A is the exposure of the affair to the outside world to the people who are closest to the WS [wayward spouse] which happens to be the BS [betrayed spouse]. But make sure that you have verifiable proof to show the OM's W otherwise you may encounter a possible negative reaction against you. And be ready for an almost guaranteed angry reaction from your W about 'invading my privacy' when the word gets back to her that you have exposed her affair. Exposure injects a lethal dose of reality into the fantasy which is the affair and hastens its eventual demise.

TMCM

So how are you doing now? Hope you are doing okay.

I think this is really f'ed up!

I would like to deal with this asap, but I dont' think those emails I posted are conclusive enough. (I did copy them to a different file, just in case they get deleted.)

So, according to one of those messsages, she probably won't talk to him until monday. I don't want to wait all weekend simmering like this, but I really don't want to bring this up again until I have more evidence...

Anyone have any other good tracking ideas? I probably have his cell phone number, but cell phone numbers are really hard to trace on the internet.

Gramn I responded to you on EN. Read Wat's guidelines...they're great...and the information I posted is important too.

I know waiting this out is difficult...but unless you are certain....I think you should. When you talk to his wife...you need real proof so that he can't lie his way out if it either...yanno?

I know... It's just hard to wait...
(I read Wat's thing a couple times too)

I'm supposed to help some of my best friends move Saturday.

I'm planning to take my daughter to a family graduation Sunday.

I wonder if I should change my plans somehow? These activities will keep me away from my W for a while... Or maybe I should just confide in these friends, relatives.
I guess maybe I'll say something to my friends, but not anything about this affair...

It's going to be REALY hard to try and meet her emotional needs while this $#!t is going on...

Gramn chere....since the mods may come in and edit your language....do a little self moderating with the edit button on the top of your posts. Replace a few letters...without losing the meaning and that should be fine okay? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm not usually a foul mouthed person, but as I said, I'm feeling pretty F'ed up right now...

Don't apologize chere!! Most of us have been there....and I'll admit right now I cursed like a sailor *blush*!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

It seems clear that your wife is involved in at least an EA with the Y GUY.

Follow WAT's GUIDELINES. They were a GODSEND to me. I read them over and over.

Knowledge is power to you. Get as much information as you can. Expose. Expose.

Make sure to find out who this guy is...

I'm not familiar with Lisa Loeb but I found these lyrics to one of her songs....There is a reference to "IF" in the refrain...

Kick Start Lyrics
Artist: Lisa Loeb (Buy Lisa Loeb CDs)
Album: Cake And Pie



We need a kick start
We need a quick solution
We need a next step
If we're really going
If we're really going

We sit on our couch
While we watch our TV
And the phone doesn't ring
And it's perfect

To be here playing house
Is no comfort to me
It's just more of the same
Again and again and again

We need a kick start
We need a quick solution
We need a next step
If we're really going
If we're really going




Trying so hard
To dig ourselves out
Cause we're stuck and we're scared
And we're thinking
Things have to change
It's the thoughts that don't count
Can something be done?
Don't let this decision drag on

We need a kick start
We need a quick solution
We need a next step
If we're really going
If we're really going

We need a big push
To reach the right conclusion
So we can get there
If we're really going
If we're really going
Let's go.

We need a quick solution
We need a next step
To reach the right conclusion
We need a kick start
We need a kick start

I am sorry, Gramm. Stick around here. We can help you with this.....

Gramn, whatever you do, DO NOT confront your W yet! If you do, you will only lose your only opportunity to find out if they are having an affair. You need to wait until you have irrefutable proof in those emails, ok? And then, you confront her. And THEN you tell the OM's wife and alert his boss. But do not show your hand until you have a full house or you will lose the card game!

Do you think they are talking on the phones? If it is a land line, you can tap the phone.

Do you have spyware on your computer? Or did you just hack into an email account?

I just wanted to reinforce what has already been said. Do not move out of the house!! In addition to making it easier for her to continue her affair, in some states that can be considered abandonment, which could be used against you in a custody battle (should one arise).

Mel:

Why do you say, If they are having an A?

I say he has proof of an Emotional Affair. He needs proof of a Physical Affair.

I think Gramm needs to take some time off from work without his wife knowing.

Maybe show up at the Y....

Mimi, what proof of an emotional affair does he have? I haven't seen it. If he had that proof he could confront her now. But, he doesn't really even know what is going on at this point.

maybe I misread. What about the E-mails from or to Y Guy? Check out the words to the Lisa Loeb song....

Mimi, I think she probably is having an affair, but those emails don't tell that story. I think he should hold out for better evidence.

Gramn,

If you and your W haven't had sex in quite a while, you may want to consider purchasing and using one of those semen detection kits and check your W's underwear for signs of semen . If the results are positive then you have the proof you need to confront both your W and OM's W.

IF this comes to pass, and you are afraid you may not be able to keep your cool when you confront your W, then consider having someone you trust to be with you and who can help you keep you to keep your emotions in check. After all, if you want to save/rebuild your marriage, the last thing you want to do is sabotage your own hard efforts with LB [love busters].

TMCM

Gramm,

I didn't get what your W's email was about. This ones for you? Was that it or did the blank lines mean there was more? Those are pretty sugary sweet emails from the yguy.

There is a voice activated recorder that some folks will hide in the car to listen to cell phone conversations of the suspected.

Sounds like you won't have long to wait to get the proof you need from the emails. That's what led to my Dday..last Memorial Day, gosh almost a year. How time flies.

When it is time to expose to yguy's spouse DO NOT tell your W before you do it. Most times the WS will warn the lover, then he tells his spouse that a crazy man may be calling and to just hang up on him.

I would not talk to anyone about even a hint of what is going on until you have proof. You may wish to keep it private then also. If NC occurrs imediately and she finds another health club, and she is very remorseful and wants to rebuild the M, then the less people that know about it the better.

If they refuse to end the relationship, then exposure to an ever widening orbit of friends and family must be done to end the A. Starting with MS. yguy.

You actually have the upper hand in this drama, knowing what you already know. Keep cool and collected and wait for your full house.

k

I did not know that "IF" was referring to a Lisa Loeb Song... Interesting lyrics. (She's never mentioned that song to me) She was recently listening to a new Loeb album. I thought that maybe she loaned it to YGuy. (I was thinking of saying "honey, where is that new Loeb, CD, I want to listen to it.")


I installed spyware and the next day, my spyware showed me that she had sent this guy an email from a new email account. The Message "This one is just for you" means (to me) that this email account is private and only for him and her to corespond with. I had previously told her that I looked at her web log and emails. The next day, she deleted a message from this guy in her normal account, and apparently set up this new account to correspond with him.


TODAY'S NEWS:
She went shopping.
She bought herself new sexy underwear. She also bought me some new underwear too. (As a cover?)

Cell phone bill.
I discovered today, that she changed our cell phone billing instructions. Instead of them sending us a paper bill, now they will send us an E-statement directly to her new/secret account!!

She checked the secret account, but YGuy hadn't sent anything. I think he is away for the weekend, maybe with his wife.

So, are you two still having SF?

LOL, NO! Before this all started, she had a really low interest in sex. I partially blamed her medication. She was first on Prozac, it helped her moods, but she was totally uninterested in sex. At one point she let her perscriptioon run out. She was CRAZY, but also interested in sex again. We switched her to Zoloft. Again, not much interest in sex. She doesn't want me to initiate it, and she VERY RARELY wants to. Like, averaging monthly... A week ago, she tried again and we had a few encounters. They were enjoyable, but she was not able to climax.

A few days later, all of this started...

Well, it could be the drugs. I think some Anti-D's do interfere with desire and the ability to climax.

Do you have any idea why she was depressed?

Well, there are several theories.

SHE would say it is that she isn't "IN LOVE" with me any moe and is just going through the motions.

She lives in another country from her family.

We are always tight on money which she blames on me. She wants me to "take care of her". I work full time, am looking for better job, and do freelance work. I don't know what more I can do!

She gets agrivated with our baby for acting up

She gets annoyed by just about everything that my parents do.

I installed spyware and the next day, my spyware showed me that she had sent this guy an email from a new email account. The Message "This one is just for you" means (to me) that this email account is private and only for him and her to corespond with. I had previously told her that I looked at her web log and emails. The next day, she deleted a message from this guy in her normal account, and apparently set up this new account to correspond with him.
[/quote]

Couldn't you send her an email to her new account with the message "this one is for you" and see how she reacts??

Yes, but I'm leaving my knowlege of this account secret, until I am ready to bust them. In the last email, YGuy says "See you bright and early monday morning!"
Now, If my wife DOES go to the Y on monday morning, isn't that the PERFECT time to catch them?!?

Catch them doing what though ? excercising?? It would only work if you knew what they were doing & if its not a PA how would you catch them EA ing at the Y?

Can't you see the two of them saying to all & sundry 'You see isnt he crazy"!!! Look everyone wasn't I SO right about him??'
You might be giving them free shots at you.

Like MEL I think you need to be a bit patient and gather more evidence, if that means going to the Y to see whats goes on perhaps ... but it may simply alert them to the fact you are sus. At this stage is that counter productive unless you catch them in a compromising sit??

Gramm there is no quick 'fix' I suspect in this. I've never seen a quick fix in the time I have been here.
This situation needs some MC and IC for both of you but to get to that place you need to gather your evidence before exposing as Mel points out.

I know this sucks and is so hard for you but line up all your ducks before you start shooting Gramm.

If he did that, he would give himself away before he gets the goods. He would shoot himself in the foot.

Aussiewife...
You've got a point. I don't know what, if anything I'd find at the Y. BUT, it seems like a good opportunity to do SOMETHING.

Gramn, just hang tight until you get enough evidence, ok? I know its hard to wait, but YOU MUST be strategic about this. They will give themselves away eventually. Hopefully, you can find out more now that you have uncovered this little email account.

Do you think they talk on your land line? If so, you can tap your phone.

DO you have a link to one of these phone taps that you're referring to?

I came up with a good compromise for tomorrow. Wife has a weekly dance class at the Y at 9. So I'm probably not going to walk in on anything crazy anyway. BUT since I have the day off tomorrow, I might go along with our daughter to take her swimming. Play with daughter/ keep an eye on things... ETC...

Gramn, just go to Radio Shack and ask them about the phone taps. I think they are pretty simple to set up.

Gramm and all:

Inability to climax is definitely a side effect of Zoloft!

Is she still on this medication?

I agree to wait until you have definite evidence.

However, I think you will the evidence very soon.

Zoloft side effect, huh? Yeah, she's still on it.Maybe I should not mention that bit of information until I squash this affair. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I got into her cell phone's voice mail and got some guy saying this:
"Hey Sweetheart, when you get out of work, give me a call"

Gramn-

Document EVERYTHING. Start a journal, but do so in a fashion that you can make SURE that your wife won't know/be able to access.

This sounds EXACTLY like the kind of thing that was going on in my wife's EA...only in her case, there was no chance of it going PA, as he lives on the other side of the US.

When you finally have a confrontation with her, realize she's going to deny EVERYTHING...that is standard operating procedure in these cases. And the one point you need to keep clear...would she approve (or would anyone standing outside looking at this) of what she said to him if it were coming from you to another woman???

She's not going to be rational or pleasant about any of this...so make sure you're ready to stand your ground when it happens.

I'm sad for you in learning about this Gramm.

I know this must surely enrage you to hear another man speak to your wife this way.

However, try to remain calm and gather as much information as you can.

As others have indicated, knowledge is power for you.

Well, I messed up. Above, I mentioned a voice mail that I hacked into. At the time, I tried to forward it to my phone for safekeeping. Somehow, instead of coming to my phone, it showed up as a message from me on her phone...

So she confronted me on it and flipped out that I was STILL invading her privacy. So she practically kicked me out of the house. She said that the message was from her gay friend.

I smoothed things over a little bit, but every time I mention these secrets, she pulls away from me even further.

It's to a point where I don't even want to collect more evidence or confront her. SHe just gives excuses at everything.

And I don't know what to think. SOME of these excuses are probably legit. I'm all paranoid and it's hard to tell. She almost called all of her friends to warn them that I might be checking up on them. I Flatly denied that I'd done that. (Which is true), BUT I was ready to try and call one of these guys that I'd found in her phone bill.

Disclaimer first: Today I am on a CRUSADE against As! I am personally so happy in my RECOVERED marriage, GRAMN and so easily could have given up. So here goes...

You fell off of your horse! Time to get back up in the saddle. It's a good thing that you are fighting for your marriage. Don't back off like I did. For years, I probably enabled my FWH's A because I didn't want to believe that it was happening. He gave me all kinds of flimsy excuses like your wife is giving you. She is trying to get you to back off. She is trying to make you into the BAD GUY. All part of the WS script.

It is not OK to have "PRIVACY" in a MARRIAGE. It is not OK for your wife to accuse you of "invading her privacy". You are a married couple. Your lives are supposed to be OPEN BOOKS. If she is wanting to keep secrets from you, this is a sign of a problem. Talk to her calmly about how you don't want to keep secrets any longer.

Why is it OK for her to kick you out of the house? She can't do that nor is it reasonable for her to want to do that because you were concerned about phone calls to her. Is she being defensive?

I'll be back later.

OK...so she's mad at you for checking her voicemail. Does she NOT understand that she shouldn't have ANYTHING to hide from you?? And if she doesn't have anything to hide, why would she be so upset by your 'checking' on her?!?!?

If it really comes down to it, lay it out for her just like that. There is NO reason that she should need privacy...no more than you should. If she's got nothing to hide, then hide nothing. What does she lose by not 'having privacy'? NOTHING. What does she gain? Your trust, and a better marriage. Try telling that to her and see how she responds.

Stop flipping out and acting like you did something wrong; you didn't. She is flipping out because she is guilty and you are hot on her trail! People who have nothing to hide, don't hide. And she is running scared. So, just calm down and continue gathering evidence quietly. Then, when you get enough info, call the OM's wife and tell her about the affair. THEN, confront your W with the fact that you KNOW about her affair.

Be calm. Be strategic. And don't show your hand until you have a full house. CARRY ON, SOLDIER!

P.S. and it doesn't matter if she gives you excuses. You don't need her admission to know the truth. You don't need her admission to prove what you know is true. So, don't worry about that at this point. She will eventually run out of lies and excuses when you expose her.

IMHO, an honest reaction by a faithful wife upon learning that her husband thinks she is having an A would be: concern (oh he feels I don't love him), reassurance (honey, don't worry I love you!) and probably a little bit of feeling flattered (gee, he is jealous!). It WOULD NOT BE defensive or accusing.

No doubt she is defending a bad little secret!

Don't let her suck you into believing you are doing something bad. Good job for following through to protect your M and your W from an A.

Don't give up. But rest assured she will be really careful now. Just keep quietly collecting evidence. Make a case. And then GO PUBLIC as fast as possible and all at once.

Good luck.

as a married woman who is NOT cheating on her H this would have been my reaction to my H doing what you did ...

[color:"blue"]Wow, really, you checked my voice mail? Are you feeling like I might be doing something wrong behind your back? What can I do to show you that you have nothing to worry about?[/color]

See the difference between your W's response and an innocent-got-nothing-to-hide wife's response???

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Gramm, another thing you should remember, she does not have the right to the privacy to destroy you behind your back. NO ONE DOES. Snooping is a perfectly legitimate activity when there is suspicion. She is not entitled to carry on affair behind your back. So, don't let her bully you into backing off.

Thanks for the encouragement.
It's not so simple. Right now, she wants to be separated. She says she in not "In Love" with me and possibly never was. Although we are still living in the same house(if not the same bed), She is thinking of trying to sell it, getting an apartment, get a new job, all kinds of stuff.
SO, although I have always trusted her throughout our regular marriage, she is looking at this Separation as a time to change the rules. As a man and wife we had no secrets or privacy, BUT as a SEPARATED couple, she feels entitled to all the privacy she needs to have her friends support her. I'm fine with her friends supporting her, but that probably won't do any good either. They'll probably just tell her what she wants to hear.

Last night, I asked her that we dont see other people until our divorce is final (or we reconsile). She freaked out saying that was an unreasonable request. (It might have been.) She is going for that "If you love me set me free" mentality.

So, even if I could catch her "red handed" cheating with someone else, she would probably still think that we are separated and that it is OK!

"She is going for that "If you love me set me free" mentality."

NO she isn't. She is in the I am having an A (an emotional drug) and it makes me feel like a million bucks and you can't take my drug away mentality.

Believe me, if you catch her and expose her--the picture will look a lot different to her.

Just avoid all R talk. And by all means Don't leave! Think--fight for marriage, lay low, build a case and expose. Fight for M, lay low, build a case and expose.

Your daughter's family needs you now more than ever!

Good luck.

Gramn:

What your wife is saying is all part of the WS script especially since it is all coming out into the open. Most of our WSes said the exact same words about not being in love, etc.

Gramn, you do not have to help her out with this. BE A SOLDIER! FIGHT FOR YOUR MARRIAGE!

If she wants to move out, fine. You do not have to agree to this.

Why are you still out of the bedroom? It's OK to move back in there.....

YOU ARE NOT SEPARATED! Tell her that YOU want to work on your marriage and are not agreeable to a SEPARATION. If she wants to SEPARATE, that will be HER CHOICE.

AHA! You have not caught her "red-handed" YET! That's what she's afraid of and wants to prevent. She is trying to convince you beforehand that what she is doing is OK because you two are separated, she never loved you, etc.! Don't buy this......

What she is doing is wrong and unacceptable in a marriage.....

Stay calm and collected. Get a copy of Surviving an Affair ASAP or read what you can about INFIDELITY on this site.... Stay vigilant and know that YOU are in the RIGHT.....

gramm, let her know that the rules have not changed. You are still married. You are not "seperated." Many WS use this ruse to justify the unjustifiable. So let her know that the rules have not changed at all, you are still married and you expect her to act as such. Carrying on an open affair frm the comfort of your home won't work.

So, no, your situation is not different from any of the FOGBABBLE we hear around here all the time.

The answer to your problem is to keep snooping, find out the truth, and the EXPOSE HER.


Tell her the door is wide open and there is nothing stopping from from "being free." But until then, she is your wife and you expect her to act like one. Don't fall for this nonsense, Gramm. This is not even creative bull crap! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Mel said:



YEP!!! I LOVE THIS STATEMENT!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

hehee

See, gramm, we hear this bull crap on here every week and it is always the same old crap. In your case, your W is having an affair but feels she is entitled to it somehow by announcing she is "seperated." ["seperated" meaning she kicked you out of your OWN bed]

When, in fact, nothing has changed at all. She is still married, still living under your roof except doesn't want to be bothered while she runs around like an alley cat in heat. She simply wants to carry on like a single woman except with none of the INCONVENIENCES of a single woman's life! She wants to carry on this way frm the comfort of her home and insists that you shut up about it.

Now, doesn't that sound a little nutty? Why in the world would a sane person tolerate that?

MEL:

You are too much today! You are so "on top of this"! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I hope you are listening, GRAMN.

This is GREAT STUFF.....

of course I'm listening...

Here are their latest emails...

She mentioned to me in passing that Y Guy is on vacation.
-------------------------------------------
From: Y Guy
Hey,
Just a quick note to let you know I am thinking about you. You sounded pretty bummed out this morning when we talked, I hope you are doing better. Rough day today - 90 degrees and sunny, lots of reading and Jimmy Buffet by the pool. The only thing missing is you
-------------------------
From: Wife
Sent: Fri 5/27/2005 12:14 PM
To: Y Guy
Subject: Re: Bye

It's gonna be hard not to think of you often, considering I never stop thinking about you in the first place.
But just in case, I hope you think of me often too.

-------------------------
Y Guy wrote:

Have a good time while I am gone, think of me often! I’ll see you bright and early Monday morning.

-Name Changed---

So you know Y GUY's name?

Gramm, whatever you do, please don't twist off at the first really racy email and confront her, ok? Please promise you will come here first and let us strategize with you before you ever confront her, ok?

I'm trying to be patient, but I'm not sure what I'm waiting for. It's not necessarilly likely that I'll find an email saying "That was sure fun screwing you last night"...

What would be my "GO" sign? What am I hoping to find?

This is so wierd for me. Wife and I calmly talked for a while tongiht about everything. She is apparently a good liar. I practically believe her evert time we talk, but then I read some of these messages...
Tonight she apparently deleted all of their correspondence. I'm glad I copied them all...

Gramn,

I'm with Melody on this one chere....don't get hot headed and self destruct. Please stop and THINK....then come here for some advice before confronting her. How you do it...is as important as when you do it. As far as what your "go" sign is....only you know how much it will take to convince you. There is no question that the relatioship is inappropriate....the emails you have prove that. However, if you need more proof of deeper inappropriateness...and irrefutable proof....emails will probably not do it. Depending on the person....some folks need a PI, need to catch them in the act, etc. My guess is that the time will come soon when they will plan to meet.

I'm waiting and waiting...

I think I've got more than enough proof here, but I don't think it will be compelling enough for her...

Gramn, what would it hurt to wait a few more days and see what they talk about? I think they are having a full blown affair, but those emails only indicate a minor flirtation. Why can't you wait a few more days and see if you can glean some info about a meeting, etc? Remember, this is the evidence you need to convince the OM wife that her H is having an affair.

And you don't have to "compel" her. You don't need her agreement to know something is true. When you confront her, you don't have to ask her if its true, you simply tell her you know its true. See what I mean? It doesn't matter at this point if she admits it.

Gramn:

Remember that this is not really your W right now. Think of her as having been captured by alien forces. She is under the influence of the A drug. She is not herself and she is not rational.

She will lie and she will be deceitful. It sounds like she has mastered this as is true for WSes as the other poster stated. She is working towards maintaining her high, her fix with the OM. In her fogginess, that's all that matters to her right now.

You are the one who has A PLAN and you are the one who is rational and psychologically healthy. Your aim is to maintain your marriage and family. Her goal, along with the Y guy, is to destroy this unit. You are in a battle against this. It is important to be strategic.

Also remember the likelihood is low that she will admit to having an A. Like Mel says, YOU will have to state it as being fact.

Hang in there. You can do this!

I'm continuing to wait, it's just hard to know for what.

About the other Guy's wife: How should I contact her? I know her phone number and first name from the web's phone book listings, but I don't know when she is home. I don't want to call and get the other guy to answer, and I don't know when he is there either. Heck, I don't even know for sure that they are still together. The phone listings could be out of date! (But I think they are still together)

Gramn:

This gives you something to do. Research the status of his relationship with his wife, where he lives, where she works, etc.. Get as much information as you can.....

Knowledge is power...

Gee, like I needed more to do...
(sarcasm)


I tried to see what I could find on her. Not much. I found a few entries for people with her name who had been in volleyball or racing horses. I think it's probably just several people with the same name though.

Any advice on finding info about her, besides just cold calling?

anywho.com

Where I live public records on are on the web. You can search by name and street address.

There are also websites on which you can do a records search for a fee-around $19.95.

http://www.zabasearch.com/

comes up with interesting results sometimes

Gramn, you are in good hands. Do whatever these people say.

Gramm

just keep hanging on until you get some info on the Y guys wife. HAve you thought of electoral rolls? In Aust anyone can access them for a standard fee of around $20.
Also if you have address check who owns it..if rented you might get some info from owner, or if they own it it might confirm that they are together.
Just take your time.
Once you feel you have what you need in the proof area remember to come back to see Mel or mimi etc and discuss the best way to go about exposing.

Just for now put away that 'fix it' kit you carry around and listen to the good advise..I know its hard.. and painful and hurts like h*ll. Remember the aim, your Daughter will have a full loving family.

DO NOT LET HER RUN YOU ROUND Gramm ...ok? She CANT throw you out ok? She CANT take your DD and go unless you let her...sure you cannot stop HER going by herself,,but then you never could. Put the onus BACK on her in the meantime, do not retreat on this, no compromise, no agreements, what you say Gram is NO, NO ,NO, NO, NO, NO, politely of course!

Gramm when in a affair the WS will say night is day standing out under the fulll moon. My brother caught his ww in bed with a OM and she stated 'Nothing is going on" & "look we're just friends its got nothing to do with you" Mmmm ......... I wasnt that STUPID but I guess I sure had the makings.

Patience, gather info, watch her actions, guard your tongue & actions .... I'm sorry but you will find more proof fairly soon by the sounds of it .... all the best.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Gramn:

Just being curious, I checked out www.zabasearch.com.

There listed was all of the FOW's previous names, previous addresses and phone numbers. Yes, plural on the names... She is not a person of good character....

I had one listing and one name, no phone number, old address. My life has been boring, I guess.

Well, we just had a counciling session...
I didn't bring up the OM

The Dr established:
She is not "In Love" with me and that she can't say anything to make me accept that.
No amount of working on the marriage will make her change her mind, and I can't accept that.

How could you have seen a MARRIAGE COUNSELOR?

Totally disregard whatever that counselor said to you.

I think that is awful. That person should not be doing MARRIAGE Counseling.

I am happily recovered in my marriage and saw several useless counselors such as this.

My FWH saw a therapist just before leaving to spend the whole weekend with the FOW....

Listen to us here....

This disgusts me.....

BTW: Continue your research as planned. Remember your WW's goal during the session was to encourage you to back off. She is the same alien that I discussed earlier, with the same goal of trying to get her fix from the OM.

Excuse for "going off" on your counselor. However, I do feel that such counselors are useless.

I was thinking of clueing this guy in on what is really going on. I'm not sure if that would do more good or harm though, so I've decided to wait.

This OM is out of town until monday. It seems like this is going to take a long time to progress...

Gramn:

In my opinion, the counselor you are seeing is not experienced and could do more harm than good. He was going along with your WW saying she is not "in love" with you? He was wanting you to "accept" this? This is how I read your post. I don't think that is a reasonable expectation for you.

You may have gotten some valuable information in the session now that I think about it. Did your WW indicate WHY she "feels like" she is not "in love" with you? This will clue you in to your PLAN A. What is she NEEDING from you? More attention? More romance? More affection? More conversation? This is what the therapist might have asked her if he was trying to HELP you with your MARRIAGE!

[b]Screw the MC and call Steve Harley, faaaaaaaaaast.

My wife and I went to MC shortly after D-Day. We had the Worst MC Biaaaaaaaaaaaatch in the World. Turned out this Biaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatch works at a Battered Womens shelter and blames Men for everthing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

She called my wife in first for 20 minutes while I waited.

She then called me in asked me to sit down and said "I recommmend the 2 of you go your seperate ways (Divorce). I was sooooooooooo F'n pi$$ed. I called her a F'n biatch and every swear word I know.

She called the Police but I gave her 10 minutes of pure F'n Hell that she will NEVER forget.

The biatch said " I spoke to your wife and she doesn't Love you." I said "No s*** biatch, why the F do you think I'm here. I paid you $165 to tell me this. I had faxed the biatch 7 pages of our entire marital history (my wife reviewed).

I told her I had a half hour left and I wanted to talk to my wife about counseling. She said "I'm sorry it takes 2 to work on a marriage and I don't go against my patients wishes." I said "why the F do you think I came here. I knew she didn't Love me, I was expecting you to give us homework, contact our priest, anything to try and resolve the situation.

The biatch said "it's best for the children if you 2 divorce and move on." I should have slapped the S*** out of her, F'n biatch.

Please don't rely on any MC except the Harleys, enough said.

Here I am 8 months past D-Day (Sept '04) and I am back in our bed and my wife wants to stay together. Originally my wife wanted me out in one week, last Oct 1. I contacted Steve the following morning and set up a time for my wife to call him the following day during her lunch break. She called him via her cellphone from her car.

Steve explained to her "How people Fall IN Love and OUT of Love."


Steve then talked to my wife about "Conditional love vs UNconditional Love." All love is conditional, we have to meet each others needs.

My wife changed her attitude immediately. It's still a very tough road to follow but it can work.

Listen to us, everyone here is an Expert. We have all been thru Hell and back.

Do NOT do or say anything without consulting us first.

If you try this by yourself consider your wife gone. May as well file for divorce today and let OM have his way with her.

Andrew

THANK YOU, ANDREW!!!!

This is why I love MB. This is such a support group!

Here I was thinking I overreacted.

Andrew, you were sharing my same thoughts....

Hmm...

I'm going to confront this EA situation when I'm ready, don't have a cow...

I do get what you're saying about needing the right councilor, but I think she would be HIGHLY reluctant to call some guy I found online. (She started reading "His Needs, Her Needs" and hated it!)

As it stands, she is convinced that she doesn't love me and has been "living a lie"...

Gramn:

You said this about your WW:



What I am saying will sound like a broken record...

This is standard for a WS. My FWH said this and most other WSes on this site said this. Your WW is no different than any others.

No. She may not feel "in love" with you right now. That's because she is in the midst of an addiction to the Y GUY.

Is she able to be "in love" with you again? Yes.

How? Come up with YOUR PLAN. What does your WW need from you? What needs is the OM meeting? How are you going to expose this? Who are you going to contact? What proof do you have?

Remain rational and develop your BATTLE PLAN.

You can contact Steve Harley yourself for counseling even if she does not participate.


So What Do you Think?

To schedule an appointment with Steve Harley, you may use one of two options:

Call toll-free 1 (888) 639-1639
or
e-mail (counsel@marriagebuilders.com) an appointment request by completing the form below.
Appointments may be scheduled as early as 6:00am Central Time (GMT -06:00) and as late as 9:00pm Central Time Monday thru Thursday. Appointments may be scheduled 6:00am Central Time to 3:00pm Central Time on Friday, also.

Of course that's how she feels...because it's the only way she can 'justify' what she's doing!!!

Here's the thing. You need to get as much evidence as you can...you need to be able to PROVE the emotional affair...if not a physical one if it exists.

And you need to EXPOSE that to everyone and their brother. Call her parents, your parents, her friends, your friends, the OM's wife, family, friends. Tell the neighbors, the guy up the street...make sure that your pets even know what's going on (poor dogs and cats...always get left out.../sigh).

She's going to be MAD. She's going to HATE you for it. She'll tell you that you ruined her life... And guess what? The reason she's going to feel that way is.....SHE CAN'T HIDE IT ANYMORE. And...she can't keep lying about it! Because everyone that knows the both of you knows how it REALLY is...and she's not going to have any ground to stand on. People will tell her that she's an idiot for behaving like this...and it will be impossible for her to keep on doing it.

And so hopefully, the affair will end. And then she'll go into withdrawl. She'll hate you even more...you ruined her life!! She'll tell you that she NEVER loved you!!! And that will last for a good while after her affair has ended.

And then, slowly...reality starts to seep back in. She starts seeing things how they REALLY were..and what she was doing and how bad it was. And then, hopefully if all has gone right...she'll begin to work with you to rebuild your M. It's not easy, it's not fast, but it DOES happen. I know...I've been there.

Ok now. There's TA and OWL and ME telling you the same story. We've been in your shoes, walked your same road, heard the same WS tales.... There's more of us HERE....

BELIEVE US!!!

Thanks for all of the support everyone.

Would there be a point to having her call Steve before I explose the A? Also, isnt the idea to tell few people what is going on in Plan A, and then to tell a bunch of people in Plan B if A doesn't work?

In your sitch, I suggest that YOU call Steve Harley ASAP to ask him how he would suggest that you should proceed. If you are able to do this, he can tell you about whom to inform and how to do that.

We can be your support system based on our experiences. Steve is the EXPERT, actual GENIUS, in my opinion regarding these matters....

Ok, since I talk to Steve probably more than anyone here, let me give you some advice.

Fax Steve your marriage background and general data on the both of you one day before the session takes place. When you call him the first question is "Steve did you receive my fax and read it?" Sometimes he will read while you are talking, he reads and comprehends fast.

Set up appt for you, not your wife. Steve will tell you what to do next.

Fax 651-769-0972
Office for scheduling 888-639-1639
sharley@marriagebuilders.com

When you call him take notes (fast) or use a voice recorder to talk into. Steve will give you a ton of questions to ask your wife. The one hour session is actually 50 minutes (10 min for his notes).

Make sure to get a Plan of attack from Steve.

Have a list of questions you want to ask Steve and ask them in order of importance.

I usually have 50 questions and we get thru 3 or 4. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Good Luck

Andrew

I T-TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS!!!

I had no idea that so many of you had talked to Steve...

Well, how much are these sessions w Steve? We've already got way too much debt than we can handle.

In the mean time, I'll still try to collect info, but I have not found any signs of contact between them today or yesterday. (I think he's on vacation until monday)

The sessions are costly.

You might want to weigh the benefits of this vs. separation/divorce which would be even more costly for you, setting up two households, etc.

Even one session would prove helpful to you at this point, Gramn.

Did you check out those websites to get info. about the OM and the status of his marriage, how to contact his wife, etc.

Well for that price, I could do an hour.
I know Steve is great, but I'm skeptical of an "miracle" solutions, you know?

DO THE HOUR.

You will be surprised about how helpful it will be.

No there are no "miracles". Hard work is necessary. He will coach you on how to specifically direct your energy.

So are you going to go ahead and make the appointment?

How is your research going?

Gramn -

I never thought I could afford the counseling here. Instead I lost over $100,000. so far. I have heard of many, many people being helped by just a few calls.

You are doing very well so far. You seem to be able to follow the MB plan, and not fly off the handle like I did. Hang in there, and talk to the folks here before you take action.

I have not found anything since the day before yesterday.
(Remember, the OM I suspect is on vacation unit monday)

BUT, I've still been checking her emails and stuff, which makes me feel like crap. I promised her that I wouldnt pry into her stuff any more. By doing so, I'm as much a liar as she is. I've thought about just confronting her with the info that I have previously gathered.

I don't know....

I wouldn't confront based on what you've posted here. There's not enough flat out undeniable things that she wouldn't be able to twist to suit her view of things.

And you're NOT lying by checking up on her. I know that I would have NO issue with MY wife checking up on MY emails and such...and SHE was the one who had the EA! It's a matter of fighting to fix your marriage. The only reason she'd be angry is BECAUSE she's trying to hide things!!

Don't confront/expose until you've got enough information to support your claims. Having the email access is a good thing...do you know if they use IM's to communicate? If so, get her account and login info (with the keylogger, or just guess at her password), and enable logging of her chat sessions. Then wait a few days and check the log...that is EXACTLY how I got proof of my wife's EA.

Listen to these people. I was in almost your exact position a year ago and almost all the stories are the same. Your natural instinct is to confront and expose as soon as you have a shred of evidence. Fly off the handle accuse and blame. That is a one way ticket to being single. most likly it will only prove to her why she doesnt love you.

If you wait you will probably see more than you want to but you will need to know this in the end. It will help you be comfortable that she has indeed come clean. Affairs are so much like a drug addiction. Your wife will lie and turn the tables and blame you for EVERYTHING including the affair itself. A crack addict does the same thing. They cannot accept responsibility for something so wrong.

The fact is she has found something so "wonderful" and "amazing" she has lost touch with reality. Most affairs dont work cause you lose that feeling and are left with what most of us already have. A partnership that takes a hell of a lot of work to keep going and thriving. She already has that with you but neither of you worked at it so it is in disarray. She is living a fairy tale and she thinks she has found prince charming "her soul mate". Little does she know prince charming forgets to put the toilet seat down or cannot provide everything she needs either. There are no fairy tales in real life. There are no soul mates. Every couple has those times where they want out. She just fell into the trap where someone was there to fill a void you helped create. That is where you have accountability. You have to learn how to fill that void. Not right now cause no one can do that like Prince Charming at the moment. The time will come if you are patient.

I wish I could tell you it will get easier but it wont. The really hard work comes after confrontation and admission. My advise is pick a public place. My lawyer advised me of this so there can be no allegations of physical harm. This is a very typical accusation especially when children are invovled and trust me your wife is not your wife right now and is capable of anything when this secret is exposed. All of her guilt, same, and embarrassment will crash down on her. You are going to send her from cloud nine to the bottom of hell where you have been dwelling in one swift motion. The ugliness of what she has done will be exposed. As awkward as it may sound I really felt for the amount of pain my wife had and I was sorry I put her there. Just like an addict though you need to hit bottom to recover.

The next piece of advice is wait as long as you possibly can and plan it all out. It will most likely never go as planned but being prepared is key. Try to hit your W and the Y Guys W at about the same time so they cannot come up with a "story". This creates tension on both sides of the affair. I confronted my wife at the airport baggage claim of all places and told the OM W on the way to the airport. I also cut off her cell phone to make sure she could not communicate and be warned. I knew about the affair (solid concrete proof) for two weeks and had suspected for strongly for 6 weeks when I got the "not in love" speech everyone gets. It was pure hell. I knew she was taking my eldest on a vacation and both kids would be at my inlaws upon her return. I didnt want to ruin my daughters trip to NYC so I held on to it and now I am glad I did. It helped me go through some of the grief and figure out what I wanted. I lost twenty lbs in those two weeks. I was a wreck but I am thankful I waited. You need to start getting over this before you send her down with you. It is a grieving process and it helps if you are one step ahead of her in that as well. You can understand and appreciate what each of you is going through. It makes the fact that she is mourning the loss of a lover a little easier to swallow. And trust me THAT is a tough one.

The final bit of advise is one I wish I would have done. DO NOT SPILL ALL OF YOUR INFO AT ONCE. You dont need to tell her how you got it. She will blame you for invading her privacy. Were you wrong too. NO. I felt like crap too for what I did but I did it for good reason and was in the right. If you tell her everything upfront you will lose the advantage when slip ups occur. Again like an addict they probably will. There will be contact and you need to be sure she is telling you and there are no lies. If you give away all of your secrets what is to stop her from continuing the lie.

Like I said this was about where I was a year ago. D-Day was about 10 months ago. The first three months sucked beyond imagination. You need to listen to her, empathize with her, comfort her, accept her for her faults, and stand up to her. Never lose your cool though. but never accept blame. Yes I am sure things were rotten but she was given a choice. She will tell you she didnt leave cause she didnt want to hurt you. That is self serving. I know it hurts so much more that I was lied to and ignored for a really long time. She didnt tell you cause she knew she was wrong and held out some hope that you would change/her feelings would change. I hope some day she will be able to show that to you again. It is truly wonderful to have a wife back.

Thanks for all of that.

I really want to talk to a friend about this, but have been holding back from telling this to my actual friends. This is very hard. I'd like someone to discuss this with, but don't want to tell them at all, or at least until I tell her and eet to "Plan B".

I have already planned on what to tell the OM's wife. I just have to put it all together.

Rather than try to not hurt me, she is plannign that we will split up! So, even if I bust up this A, I don't know if it will help me in the long run...

Gramm - If the affair dies it is very likely that your wife will come back to you.

You may not want to tell your friends, and that is okay. They won't be much help anyway. They will probably tell you to divorce her. That is the way it usually goes.

Stay calm and wait.

Gramm, feeling like a "liar" is a very inappropriate feeling. There is nothing wrong with snooping when you have legitimate suspicions about them. Your wife does not have a right to the privacy to destroy you behind your back. This is all information about YOUR LIFE to which you have a RIGHT. And that information is being wrongfully withheld from you.

Do you think the police are "liars" or immoral when they spy on crack dealers? Of course you don't. That would be ridiculous. Well, it is the same principle. Your wife is actively destroying your marriage behind your back, and you have an OBLIGATION to protect yourself.

So, don't feel guilty about catching her doing something wrong. It is wrong to commit adultery, it is not wrong to CATCH someone doing it.

There are no guarantees, but likely the only reason she even wants to bust up is because of the affair. When the affair is ended and the withdrawal is over, they don't want to split up because the fantasy is burst. That is why we are trying to help you break up this affair.

I know. And thanks for that.

I guess what I'm saying is that we've had other problems long before this started. (I guess this could have been going on for a long time, but the informations does not seem to support that)

SO, even once I get past this, we'll still have a long way to go. And it will be really hard to trust her again.

Gramn:

I would recommend that you read back over FEELIN GROOVY's post to you very carefully if you are interested in the MB SYSTEM. He spells it all out for you.

Had you ever thought that your WW would find you more attractive if you fought for her? Like a WARRIOR, like a KNIGHT IN SHINING ARMOR, like "YOU ARE MY LADY", "LIKE A COWBOY"... "MACHO MAN"... whatever works for you...

I would recommend that you get to work. It's your choice. The ship is going further and further out to sea...

All marriages have problems. Life is all about problems. What I've learned is that we have got to be willing to WORK on our problems...

There are no magical solutions....

Gramm, but she didn't want to break up until she got into an affair. When folks have problems in a marriage, the logical solution is not to break up, it is to fix the problems. Your W is showing classic, textbook behavior of a WS in the throes of an affair by rewriting history about your marriage and talking about ending it. Don't pay it any mind; they all say that.

Yeah, I want to ge the "Hero" and save the marriage, but that is eaiser in theory than practice...

I have reread FEELIN GROOVY's post and that is the system I'm working toward.

I plan to gather more evidence if I can.
then when I'm ready tell the OM's wife and confront my wife in the same day.

Here is a question though... Do I demand that she break it off or what? I'd like to do that, but couldnt that backfire? I'd thought about threatening to tell more people if she doesn't break it off now, but I'm not sure that threats are good...

Right now she's very sensitive if I tell her to do anything. Yesterday, some friends of hers went out to a bar. I said "You could have gone." She said "I COULD HAVE GONE? Do I need your permission?!?" So, I'm not sure that she'll be sorry or even think of breaking it off if I tell her to. (Not sure of course)

[b]Do you realize that most people here are Experts here on Affairs.

There is most likely NOTHING you could ever tell us that we haven't heard a Million times.

Do you think you are unique?

Of course there were problems long before the affair, it's true with most of us.

Listen to what people here tell you, we are the Experts, you are a neophyte. You know nothing at this point.

It is crucial you listen to the people here at the phase you are at.

Listen to us now and read everything you can get your hands on.

Most of all, don't do ANYTHING until you ask us.

Recovery takes on average 2 years, many triggers and rollercoaster rides. This is NOT going to pass anytime soon, so prepare yourself.

Have you contacted Steve Harley? If not, get on it today.

Andrew

Of course you insist that it end immediately. That IS part of plan A. The whole intent is to END the AFFAIR....not to let it keep going on. And as long as you don't insist that it end, it WILL keep going on and on and on.

Expose...and not just to your wife, and OM's wife. Expose to both your family and your WW's. Expose to ANYONE who knows them both too...if it's work related, expose there too.

The intent is to make everyone aware of it. And that will prevent them from carrying it on in secret, which is the only way they know how to do it. Once everyone knows, and she is forced to see how wrong what she is doing is, it begins to destroy that fantasy aspect of it.

The whole intention of exposure and plan A IS to end the affair.

TA- yes, I know I'm new to this. That is why I keep coming back to write about all this.

Owl- Of course I want to end it, I was just saying that HOW I go about saying that is tricky. I guess there is no good way to accuse someone of cheating...

OK, I'm confused... I thought it worked like this:
Plan A: Tell spouse & OP's spouse. Deemand they break contact.
If this doesn't work, go to:
Plan B: Tell a ever widening group of Spouse and OP's associates to get them to put pressure on the affair.

I'm NOT an MB guru...I've applied a lot of the principles to things in my own situation, but we began recovery BEFORE I knew about MB.

But...here's MY understanding of Plan A and B:

Plan A: Identify as many of your WS's emotional needs, and begin working to fulfill those as best as possible. At the same time, work to end the affair. This means letting your spouse know how much what they're doing hurts you. And it often includes EXPOSING that affair to everyone who could potentially assist you in guiding your WS to end the affair.

Plan B: Used ONLY after plan A has failed most times. Plan B entails removing yourself from the situation as completely as possible, to safegaurd yourself. It also forces the OP to meet ALL of your WS's emotional needs, instead of just a select few. In other words, it puts the pressures of reality back into the affair relationship. Most of those relationships aren't capable of supporting that strain, and so this often leads to the end of the affair. Once the affair has ended, and the WS has made the choice to return to the BS, THEN reconciliation can begin, and contact between the spouses can resume.

That's my understanding at least.

Why have you not called Steve Harley?

Gramn,

You REALLY need to take this time to do two things. 1 prove beyond any doubt she is having the affair. Yes, there is no doubt but you have to have her trapped with no way out. No excuses. It must be exposed and ended. That will mean NO MORE Y membership. Non negotiable.

The other thing is you have to take this time to figure out what you REALLY want. You need to begin to get beyond this. She will need you to be there for her. It is the best way to let her know you are willing to fight for the marriange and not fight with her.

The way I was able to do this was to be honest with myself. Was I an ideal husband...No not at all. I would not have wanted to be with myself. Also, deep down you can say "how could you do this to me" or "I could never do that". I am willing to bet you have thought about what it would be like to have someone who "understands" you or loves you unconditionally. Once I was able to realize this I could forgive. Not forget. You have to learn from your mistakes.

I was 99.9% sure my wife would leave. how would someone who treated me like S**T ever want to stay. I saw all the mushiness and things I was missing that she had with the OM. I was just like you. We ALL were.

You need to stand up and be a man. It does not mean you coddle her and give in to her demands and there will be plenty. It means you being there for her as a shoulder to cry on and fight for your marriage. These are admirable qualities. You dont accept all the blame and you dont pass the blame either. You talk about how you feel and what was missing. She will blame you for everything. You take it but peacefully reminder her you made mistakes but did nothing to deserve her having an affair. That was her CHOICE. You are willing to work to get beyond that and try to recapture what you had. She wont let you initially but you have to be persistant. She will come around. If she doesnt then you are probably better off.

This will be the hardest thing you have ever done. Why should you be so selfless after what has been done. You need to be. You have to show her you are the knight in shining armor. The armor is a little rusty but it can be cleaned up.

Some people dont advocat telling the OMW. Why drag another innocent into this mess. If it were me however I would want to know. It also creates tension at both ends of the affair. She cannot run to OM cause OMW is on to him and watching every move. It exposes all the ugliness and hurt. Most of the women on here and experiences I have read tell me that men typically will NOT leave their wives for the other women. So much for her soul mate. When it is not convienient for him he will show his true colors and the fantasy dies.

Just use this time to make a better you. And dont wallow in the self pity. Stand up and fight. I am sure your wife will see how serious you are. My wife initally said she never knew I was so strong and cared for her that much. She would also say she just didnt know if she could ever feel that connection. It is all a very long roller coaster ride. 10 months in and we still take an occasional long ride down. But they are fewer and far between. And I was just as hopeless as you are now. Just listen to the people that have come through. I am still getting there and am now about 99.9% sure I will make it. There are no set timelies and no guarentees. But you can make yourself better and stronger from this experience. It is a cliche on here but many people will tell you I am not thankful for the affair and the hell I/we went through but I am thankful for how it has actually improved my marriage.

Another wonderful post from Feelin Groovy....

I would recommend ACTION now... not just reading and writing here.

Like TA has questioned, what about the session with Steve Harley?

Have you gathered all the information you need on the Y Guy?

BTW, your WW will try to instigate arguments with you in order to make you into the BAD GUY, in order to rationalize the A.

We are encouraging you not to adopt the role that she will try to place you in. Become the KNIGHT IN SHINING ARMOR! Don't think about becoming that person. BECOME THAT PERSON!! Yes it is hard but it can be done.

PLAN A involves NO LOVEBUSTING. That means NO DEMANDS. However, it is essential to NEGOTIATE a PLAN for her to end the A. That is once it is FULLY EXPOSED!!

You have gotten extremely valuable and helpful info. here.

Now it's time to GET TO WORK...

I'm trying to figure out what to do every day. And please don't think I'm ignoring the advice here. I take it seriously.

I want to talk to Steve after I have a little more info on the A. I don't want to spend the money and have him say "find out what is going on first". I KNOW that!

So, currently I'm trying to be the best husband I can be, meeting a few EN and not LBing while staying out of her way and not accusing her of anything (yet.)

Thanks again for the support.

Damn, TA, what the heck? I come here looking for advice and ideas, not to be crapped on. I already feel like [censored] to begin with.

On one hand you say I'm not taking your advice and playing detective, and on another you say that my "#1 job is to break up the affair". Isn't that the point of the "detective" stuff??

And as far as working on me vs being a good husband, I think that's all semantics. Of course I'm trying to work on me. Maybe considering that "being a good husband" is wrong...

Gramn,

I had to learn this the hard way myself.

You are in charge of your life. You can do whatever you like with the advice you get here. Unfortunately, some people here believe that just because they went to the trouble to cook up some advice for you that you owe it to them to follow it. You owe them nothing but your courtesy, and if they can't accept that - and respect your right to make your own choices - then they are out of line.

This is a public forum on the World Wide Web. Anybody in the entire world can post here. Some of them should just be ignored. Don't let one unpleasant person drive you away. There are a lot of very helpful and respectful people here.

-AD

Gramm, you are right on. Your strategy is to gather more evidence and by the end of next week, [I think] you can confront your W and expose to the OM's W. Expose to the OMW first and then confront your W. Let your W know that you have also told her and ask that she end the affair. She will likely refuse.

You do not threaten or tip your hand, but when she refuses to end the affair, you wait a few days and then start exposing to the other people on your list. I think at the top of your list should be the Y-Man's boss and from there, go down the list.

Whatever you do, don't forewarn her you are going to expose her, ok?

The idea is to bust up the affair and by doing that, she withdraws from the OM and comes back into the marriage as long as you continue to welcome her with your Plan A. See what I mean? That is the long term strategy. The first step in that strategy is busting up the affair, though.


You are doing just fine. Take it easy, take it slow. You are a man with a mission. Stay on the mission, soldier.

Plan B comes much much later, so don't even concern yourself with that right now.

I agree with Mel in thinking that you are doing great.

I notice the change in your mindset. You have a PLAN. That's a major shift for you....

Stay on Course, SOLDIER!

Don't let her steer you off.

Keep in touch with us.

Well, I'll keep checking in as I can.

Well, another day has passed and no new clues.
I'm wondering if she has just become more paranoid and has taken this "underground" so I won't find out about it, or if there is just not much to find?

2 minor developments:
She changed her cell phones voicemail access number. I can't listen to that any more.

She bought some shoes and said that she didnt. That is not affair related, but is dishonest...

Well, after getting along in the same house really well lately, she finally got crazy today. After noticing some of my email headings about "relationship rescue" type stuff, She was saying that she wanted me to leave. I said that that we'd work everything out. We need to know how we'll both make money and all that before we move anywere. and that maybe SHE might be the one to move out since she wants to seperate. Well that really got her flipped out. She took the baby and drove away. She came back about an hour later and hasn't really talked to me since.

I don't want ANY of us to leave. And I REALLY don't want her trying to take our daughter anywhere. Now, i don't think she wants to be forced out, but if she goes, then she wants to bring the baby...

Tell her she can't take the baby from your home. If she wants to separate, tell her you would rather work things out, but would hate to see her go. And like you said, if she wants to separate, then she has to be the one to leave, you and the baby aren't going anywhere. Be nice, smile sweetly and don't let her bait you into a fight, ok?

You are calm, cool, collected. A soldier with a mission.

By next Friday, if you haven't gleaned any new intelligence it might be a good idea to have that little discussion about her affair. What do you think?

I am proud of you for not letting her manipulate you into leaving your own home. You handled that very well!

gramm

you are doing well and handling her last attempt to manipulate you was very good. Have you noticed that when ever you begin to question her behaviour she starts to talk separation/blah blah blah?
This is a very well practised move IMHO...probably worked for some time ...maybe you need to ponder this point in regards to the overall relationship as well...has it been going on before the Affair??
Really great advice gramm that you are getting and its good to ask questions as well!
Remember, daughter DOES NOT leave home, her running off in hapless manner with her is EXACTLY why she should not take her in that frame of mind.
All the best, keep going on as you are youre doing ok

Well, based on an email I intercepted abut a week ago, I think Y Guy is back from his vacation today.

And, lest I forget, Wife was wearing a sexy new thong sticking out of her workout pants today. Now, she normally does wear thong underwear, but not necessarilly NEW, brightly colored, sticking out of the pants, ones!!

This is driving me crazy! What the hell can I do about this? If I show up at the Y, what would I find anyway? The two of them exercising? It's not like I can run around flinging open every coat closet and saying "A-HA!" I'll just look crazy!

I've still got the computer bugged, but that isn't doing me much good today!

So, as a last ditch plan, I "Forgot" my lunch at home. I'll unexpectedly go home at lunch and probably not find anything...

Good thinking! Got your digital camera ready just in case?

now that would have been a good idea!! I'll get it if possible, this time or if not I'll be ready next time...

P.S. I did not say anything to her about the thong. That was one of those things that is hard not to comment on...

Gramn:

Where is your baby during your wife's workout?

There's no reason for you not to go by the Y to pick up your child.

How about a Y Membership for yourself?

If you can stay cool, I don't see any problems with you dropping by the Y.

Mel, what do you think about this?

You need more intel, my man. start using some of the great technology we have today. semen detection kits for those nice bright thong underwear. Tracker devices for her car, so you can find out her routine and then be there when/if her and y boy head off somewhere secluded. it will also help you save money on a PI, as you can tell PI her routine and he will only go out (and bill you) for those times that he needs to be out.

Have a friend/relative go to the Y and work out for a week. Get one of those week long trial deals. And then have them (it will have to be someone she doesnt know) see what's up there when she is there. The gym is where my wife met the OM.

More intel my man. Those semen detection kits are great!

One more thing...do not leave the house and do not let your baby go either. I kept my kids as I wouldnt let them go with her. And the fog was so thick, she thought she could go out, have her fun, build her life, and then come back and get the kids. well, when it finally went to court, I got custody. That finally woke her up. Anyway, you are the only sane one there. Do not let your child go with a slightly off center woman.

Need more advice on how to get more intel, let me know.

In His arms.

I work during the day. While Wife plays raquetball, or attends dance classes, the baby is in the Y's "Child watch" room. They have toys and other little kids in there, being supervised.

The reason I have not gotten a Y membership is because our budget is stretched too much already. (I run or bike outside) At this point, I highly question that decision though. I could stop by and look around, but unless I found a smoking gun, she'll either see me, or someone will mention to her that her husband was there looking around....

I was thinking of that "Semen Detection Kit." I assume that is something I could find online?

One reason I have not bought some of these new-fangled gadgets is that she will see them on the bank statement or the credit card bill.

If you don't have a digital camera with you, grab a disposable at the drug store. You can get one for about $5.

Mimi and Mortarman had some other great ideas I hope you look into.

This is exactly what I meant, Gramn, "stopping there and looking around". Actually, it would be best if she did not see you. I would make sure to stop off to check on my baby.

A WARRIOR IS COURAGEOUS!!

Think of the Y-GUY as a drug dealer. You want to keep your wife away from the source, make it hard for her to get her supply right now. It's OK if they get desperate.

This is what I was thinking of, but the chance of being seen and recognised is about 100%. I could not go looking around without being seen by the front desk employees who know me.

I'll try to think of something...

Then give cash to a relative or friend. You can have delivered to their house. And let them order on the card.

Here is the website of a good one... click here

After she gets home tonight, hide her underwear and order the kit. You can even have the kit sent next day air. Then test. If it is positive, then you can provide a sample, as well as her underwear to the DNA testing site they are linked to. They will send back a report confirming or denying if the semen in her underwear is yours.

Then, you have what you need!!! Then you can hire the PI or do your own PI work and get her caught. Once you have the evidence, do not tell her yet. Come here and we will help you in how to use it.

Also, you need to learn to bluff. like poker. Not lie...bluff. This is where you will only let out little bits of info, but she will think you have a whole lot more. I can help you with that. but right now, get the info, and get proof. Then we will move on to phase two. Plan A her in the meantime. If you keep quiet about this for now, they will think you have taken her excuses and they will get sloppy.

Of course, there is probably nothing PA goingon at the Y. But, the time to catch her is afterwards. So, that is why the tracker is so good. You can order them online. Some will let you see exactly where she is at from your computer. Then you can go there and get pictures. Others (which are cheaper) record themselves and then you have to take it off the car and download to your computer. Not realtime info, but can help you find a pattern of when and where she goes so you can maximise your time.

Then it might be time to take a little leave from work, but you head out like you are going to work. And then do your intel gathering.

Get with it NOW. If he is back, this week will be the BEST time you have to get the goods on her.

In His arms.

In His arms.

I don't think it's a problem for them to see you. You are making your presence known. Marking off your territory! Stay away from MY WOMAN! I'm watching YOU! You don't have to explain this to the front desk staff. They probably would be more supportive of you..... What you are doing will gain everyone's respect!!!

I don't want to accuse this guy, until I at least present my proof to my wife. Without proof, they will become even more secretive and this will be harder to prove! Now, there are plenty of times that I can go to the Y legitimately, I'll take better advantage of them.
-------------------------------------------
Well, whether it was a good try, or I almost made an [censored] out of myself, here is what I just did...

Left work with the office's digital camera. I drove to the Y and parked where my car would not be seen. Then I went and checked out my wife's car, which was there, but empty. Then I went into the foyer of the building where I could get a good view. Nothing. I went to several windows or doors that afforded me good views. Nothing. SO, this proved nothing really.

I could not see the dance class rooms or raquetball courts without being seen.
I need a better plan next time. I'm known by a lot of people there. She has told all of her friends there that we are "seperated". So, if any of them see me, it will surely get back to her. This is a tough situation. My other idea was just to sit in the car as a stake out, but I don't know exactly what time they leave, or even if that would reveal anything.

If they are sneaking off and meeting, where would they go to do it? Are you still planning on going home early to see what is there? Anyway you could stake out your house to see if he comes there?

Well, I may be wrong, but I think that they are NOT going to "do" anything during the day. I think she will set up a cover story and meet him at night. For instance, she recently went out for drinks with coworkers after her job got out at 7 PM. MAYBE that is truthful, but that is the type of event that would be hard to check on.

Or she likes to have "Girls Night OUt" with her friends every few weeks. That is fine, but that would be a good chance to pretend that she is out with her girlfriends (especially if they cover for her).

OR, if I am out, she could have someone over while the baby is asleep or whatever. Of course, this is all speculation.

P.S. I will still go home for lunch. I REALLY have to eat! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It is great that you have taken on this mission, GRAMN.

Sooner or later you will find something.

Sooner or later you will bring an end to this.

This is a WAR that they can't win if you remain vigilant!

Okay...dont look at your current effort as a failure. what have you learned? You learned that her car was there, and that when you went inside you didnt find her in the main areas. Which leaves two choices? First, that she was in the classroom and you couldnt see her without her seeing you. Or second, she left the building, leaving her car there. See what I mean? You got more intel that you needed.

So, how do you find out which one is true? You could get someoen to go inside, someone she doesnt know...and check. Or, you could stake out the front of the building for as long as it takes, and see if she comes out of the Y, or if she comes rolling back in with someone else.

If the second thing is true, and she rolls back in with the Y Boy, then another question to ask...where is your child? Did she leave her in the daycare while they ran down the street for a little quicky?? If so, you can take pictures of this event and document it. Judges will not look highly on her abandoning her child in order to get sex. It will help you to get custody, if it goes to that.

In all of this, document everything!! It will help you get a clear sense of what is going on, and where should head next. I used to read all of my documentation twice a week, just to keep me on track.

So, my advice is to take some time off work...and stake the place out. determine her schedule and where she is going...and with WHOM!! Once you have that, then we can help you take the next step.

But you started off well, my man. Keep it up. Those in an affair are always sloppy...always think they wont be caught.

Also, remember, do not tell her of any intel you have until coming here and talking to us. You will want to hit her over the head, so to speak, with the intel when you first find out the truth. Do not do this. remian calm and come here. If you stay intelligent on this, how you react and deal with what you discover just may save your marriage. but if you act poorly, you will push her toward the OM if there is one. And if there isnt yet, you may push her toward having one.

In His arms.

Such a tricky job. I know that the childcare thing at the Y is just for people who are working out there, NOT for people to drop off their kids and take off. So, I don't THINK she'd leave.

I fully realize that new underwear does not = sex. But this whole thing is driving me crazy. Tonight she works 5-8 so maybe I can do some checking around then...

It WOULD be great if I had someone at the Y who would tell me about her actions, and I do know a number of people there, but I don't know if I can trust any of them. Several of her friends there are multiple-times divorced.

I think if they are going to do anything, it would be TODAY, since she hasn't seen him in a week. Gramm, any chance you can stake her out today?

I agree with MEL!

Today is definitely the day.

Call the Y and ask to speak with the Y GUY to see if he's there!!

If he's not while your W's car is parked there, time to get your hands on that thong after she's changed for work. Actually from my experience, you don't necessarily need a kit to detect semen...

I know this feels awful to you Gramn.

However, you will find that KNOWLEDGE IS POWER. It feels better than anxiety and uncertainty....

I called the Y and asked the operator for him. they almost connected me but I hung up. SO he's there...

Here his voice first. You might have gotten the VOICEMAIL!!! You can hang up if he answers...

hmmmmm, or they could have done what they do in my office. When someone asks for me, they transfer to my phone whether I am there or not and it rolls to my voicemail if I am gone.

I have thought of this, but she normally rinses out her underwear in the shower, so I'm not sure if there will be anything left to detect, and since she always washes her underwear like that, washing it wouldn't implicate guilt either.

I probably should have waited longer. I guess I'm paranoid about him noticing my phone #. Hang up calls make people suspicious.

#67 does not allow your number to be viewed. Have someone else call and ask for him. They can say that got the wrong number or if he answers, ask him a question about the Y.

Do you know what kind of car he drives? You can see if it's in the parking lot. If you are up to it, I would make my way back over there.

I don't know his car, but do know his name, address etc. Is there a way that I could find his car info?

LOL...call the gym, tell them that you're in the parking lot, and that you just ran into (insert OM's name)'s car...could he please meet you outside to look at the damage???

And then stand back in the shadows someplace and watch what car he walks to. Might work.

I had to get this info. from a PI. However, since you know where he works, I guess you could park your car and wait until he leaves to find out or driveby his house if he doesn 't have a garage. Hopefully, someone else will have an answer to this question for you.

OK, well here is what happened at lunch.
I drove by the Y again, but they had already left.
I went home and Wife was there with daughter, and the daughter of a friend who she is babysitting.

So, I figure, I can at least have a nice lunch, right?

Well, she is in a wierd mood and after a few minutes says, "You're not here for lunch are you? You thought you were going to catch me with someone?!" "Well, I'm glad you get to see what my boring life is really like." Of course, I pleaded innocent and said "Is it a crime to come home for lunch??"

I didn't find any other incriminating evidence. She is probably still wearing the underwear and all...

A part of her likes it that you care enough to check.

Remember: KNIGHT IN SHINING ARMOR....

Stay on the case.

GOOD WORK!!!!

I wish I believed that. She said "You are in denial! We are getting seperated and divorced!"

Stick to the standard line....'If you want a divorce, then you can file for it and do the work to make it happen. I am working on our marriage, and will continue to do so."

You need to recognize that getting the proof on her is going to be alot harder since she knows that you're on to her now.

Don't argue with her, don't fight with her, don't discuss ANY of this with her. And keep on plan A'ing and working on getting the evidence you need to expose the A.

I agree totally with OWL.

She will be making those comments to get you off course.

Stick with the "standard line".

She gave you some valuable information today for PLAN A, I think.

Why does she think her life is "boring"?

Gramm, so you would have been guilty if you had caught her with someone???

You know, she is still a married woman, Gramm, and I would suggest that you make this clear to her. She cannot conduct herself like a single woman from the comforts of your home or it is adultery. I would make this very clear.

And I like what Owl suggested, please say that to her the next time. And quit letting her bully you about checking up on her. Ask her if she has something to hide? Why is she so defensive?

And lastly, your wife is so defensive that I suspect she is either planning a meeting today or HAS done something with the OM today. She sure sounded angry and nervous that you showed up at your own house! Can you go drive by your house again this afternoon?

Dear, but let me remind you, we NOT separated and we are not divorced. We are very married and very much living together. Now, if you would like to leave, you are free to do so, there is nothing stopping you. But until then, we are married and I am here to work on our marriage."

Yeah, I get what you're saying.
Somehow, to her, we are seperated even though we are still living in the same house, sharing utilities and child care duties... It's kinda strange...

She can keep doing what she thinks is necessary, and so will I.

It's tough though...

OK, i just found a new email...
Check this one out... Is there tension in paradise?
----------------------------------
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 09:19:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Wife
To: Y Guy
Hey there handsome
Sorry I had a teenage moment this morning, I didn't mean to stress you out. I really want to talk to you, though. I'll practice my restraint and try not to call until the time you told me to.
Talk to you later.
--------------------------------

Y GUY doesn't want his wife to find out about this. She called with his wife around.

He's not planning a separation from his wife. He seems to be having fun with your W. Is the Y GUY older than your W? Exposure to his wife once you have enough info. will be crucial, I think.

I believe Y Guy is 42 with a 40 yr old wife. I'm 31 and my wife is 28. I TOTALLY plan on telling his wife about this once I've got enough evidence. I guess I could go to her now, but I don't know her or how she'll react.
----------------------------

On another topic, we have another appointment with the Councillor tomorrow. He doesn't know about my affair evidence. I wonder if I should tell him before the appointment? It might help him understand, but I don't want him to spill the beans yet.

I don't get the sense that your counselor knows how to handle such situations well. Is the counselor experienced? I don't think I would trust this counselor. That's my opinion. Isn't there a possibility that the counselor would say: "Go ahead and separate, she doesn't love you anymore!" YUK!! I'm not even sure I would go back to that counselor. That's my view.

I don't know about exposure yet either. You might want to wait some more and get some more information from E-Mails. Sounds like your WW is getting desperate and will get more sloppy about this.

Gramm, I still think that you need to lay low. I am thinking that you need to appear that you are no longer actively trying to find out what she is doing until you get the goods on her. which means, tell no one that might have contact with her and might spill the beans. That includes the counselor. I agree with all above that she is likely to be setting something up this week, maybe even today. You are going to have to get busy and make sure you cover her every move. Yo ucan have one of those trackers sent overnight. Or, just have her tailed. Either way, you have to get more evidence before going public. Which includes confronting her, or reminding her about her vows. You need not want to scare them into hiding what they are doing. You need them to think the coast is clear.

Save all of these emails. The ywill come in handy later, as support in fighting for your marriage...and in court if it goes that way.

You must be smart here. Keep Plan Aing her. Try to meet her needs. And get the intel you need. Might be time to use a little of that vacation time you have saved up, get a different car that you can borrow from a family member or friend, and go find out what is going on.

Your wife is in trouble. You must gather the intel that will help you save her. Develop a plan right now for this week. One where you can cover her every move. And dont argue for your limitations. Find the slutions. Make it work.

Then bring the intel back here, and we can help you with the battle plan.

In His arms.

This councillor is very experienced. He looks like the guy who played "Count Duuku" in the new Star Wars movies.

He was reccomended to us by another couple we know. He helped save their marriage.

Marriages that involve infidelity are different! There's lots of research to support that.

I agree T-totally with Mortarman.

I would not inform this counselor particularly given what he told you last time you spoke with him.

I would recommend staying on her tail like MM says.

Your WW is in trouble because it sounds like this Y GUY is using her for his FUN. She is even calling herself a "teenager".

Stay in the fignt, GRAMN.

Well, I can keep trying to tail her.

It's hard to know where to go or what to do.

I think the perfect time that she could try something is Wed night. She is planning a "Girls Night Out". That seems like a convenient excuse.

Agree with the others, don't tell anyone anything yet. Just quietly gather evidence. When the time is right, we will help you handle it the most effective way.

You might want to hire a PI. Might be more helpful than the counseling session this week.

Gramm, you just don't know how lucky you are to have Mimi and Mortarman both posting to you. They are both supremely strategic and creative in sleuthing and busting up an affair. Please, listen to what they have to say, because they have both been through this and have great experience. You are in darn good hands.

And I very much agree about taking your counseling money and spending it on something worthwhile, like a P.I.m Finding out the truth will be much more conducive to busting up an affair than most counselors. In fact, most counselors are not even pro-marriage. Counseling is pretty much useless when one partner is in an active affair.

I agree that the councilling could be useless at this point, but I'm worried that cancelling the session could tip my hand. Maybe I should just postpone it?

OK, Tonight she is at work.
I looked around here and found that she threw out the box for those Vaginal Film things. But she kept the ones that were in the box. Also, 2 seem to have been used and the packages thrown away. Meaning, there are only 5 left out of 12.

I got freaked out by that and called her work. They said that she IS there. She called back and said to quit checking up on her, again... I have to have more important things to say when I make these calls...

Why not just say that you don't think counseling is useful right now?


And why can't you turn the tables on her and say something like: "why are you so defensive when I call you? Do you have something to hide?"

She is trying to manipulate you into not checking up on her by making you feel guilty. Don't FALL FOR IT!

I don't understand the meaning of the vaginal film thing? Are those some type of birth control? Does this mean she has some of them in her purse?

Vaginal film is a spermicide, MEL.

Oh, Gramn. I'm so sorry.

Try to keep this information to yourself and stay calm.

Hire your PI and go ahead and gather your proof. They probably have something set up for Wednesday. Be prepared to catch them.

She's getting nervous and wants you to back off so Wednesday can happen.

She knows you know about them and yet still takes some out. Could it just be an attempt to play mind games with you knowing that you check the box?? Just a thought.

Seems like she was trying to hide these Flynn.

She is not aware that Gramn was checking on the film.

I remember Gramn confronting her earlier about finding the box with one missing and her stating that the box says to try them out first. Something like that. But your right she may be hiding them now.

This was previously posted
5-25?
After being advised to take a I look, i snoop at her email & visited web pages...
I CONFRONT HER:
* She has used 3 Vaginal Film patches although we have not had ANY sex since she bought them. She claims that she was testing them... The directions suggest trying a few of these before actualy having sex.

I'm sorry I missed this, Flynn.

However, her response is ridiculous. Typical WS deception. She's not having SF with her H so in her free time she tries out vaginal film?

I think there are more normal things to do in your free time.

PLEASE... Testing out vaginal fim before having sex... LOL

Oh dear, that was a weak excuse!

Thanks for paying attention to all of my [email]Cr@P.[/email]

OK, so now she called me from work and says that she might go meet a girlfriend afterwork for a drink who is having problems too.

I am stuck home with the baby and no car that has a car seat.
I'm just so TIRED of all of this. This is driving me crazy...
Maybe she really is seeing her friend tonight. Who the he!! can tell?

Can't you get a sitter?

Maybe I could get a sitter, but to go where?

To follow her, of course.

Mel:

Exactly what I was thinking-about the sitter!

Plus, assignment for tomorrow is to buy a carseat! What if there was an emergency?

Well, she told me that she is at Olive Garden. I told her that I wanted her to bring me a desert, and she read me the desert menu, so I think that she is there.

BUT, with whom?

Gramm, if you are still there, I would work on hiring a P.I. pronto to have her tailed. He will take pictures and then you will be prepared to bust her. Its too bad you couldn't have her tailed tonight, because I am wagering she is meeting him tonight.

By pronto, I don't mean tonight, of course. But starting as soon as you can this week.

Hey buddy hang in there. I have a feeling the end (or the true beginning) is near.

You have to keep it under control though. I know it is easier said than done. We have all been there and are here to listen and offer what we can. You get lots of advise on this board but you have to take what you can use. We all claim to have the same story and do for the most part but we all made our own mistakes along the way.

I know this will sound horrible and deceiptful on your part but you have to make her comfortable and not suspicious that you are on to her. You have to make it convienient so she relaxes on you. That is when mistakes are made. You have to make it seem like you dont have a care in the world and are 100% trusting of her.

My WW had every excuse in the book and even told me "I could never look at our children if I did anything like that...it is not in my character." When I got the Not in Love speech I accused her of having an affair. She told me "I had damaged her to much to be with another person". I believed all of that for about 2 minutes. I pretended to trust her and it ripped me up inside and consumed me. But I seceretly kept looking and looking and looking. The email is the best way in my opinion. Do you have a key logger or just her password to her new account. They could be sending Instant Messages through out the day and bypassing email. A key logger will let you see all the keystrokes that are made. Try eblaster. Also she may be on to you snooping so set up another account to email etc from.

I would suggest not following her. If you get caught she will know that you dont trust her and will leave to be with OM. You need to swallow your pride and fight fire with fire. You are lying and deceiving to protect your marriage and to me that is noble. Also if you catch her and the OM what are you going to do? At best you get to witness what you really dont want to see first had. At worst you get to act out your anger on the OM and your wife. Too many bad things can happen when you confront both of them. Most likely you will catch them together doing nothing and you will lose your cool and look like an [censored].

A PI can be a big waste of money. However the Wed night thing is very intriguing. It sounds like they are having trouble connecting since his return. A girls night out is a lame excuse to go out. Have you seen any emails for any of the "girls" discussing plans for Wednesday. If not hire the PI but you should be sure. I went out of town and missed the day they were together by one day. Overall it cost me about $1000.00 to get a video and her "running buddy" MAYBE kissing and him removing his running shorts in the car. WOW what a find. Eblaster costs $30 and I had my proof in about 2 days. Plus it is in writting. No way out of that one.


The big thing is keep cool and lay low. Trust me if she is on to you that you are on to her it will only prolong this and leave her with no option but to leave to be with him. That is why Plan A is so effective now. Dont give her a reason to go. Make it hard on her. I love the advise of the others. Put it back on her in a nice but firm way. "If it is that miserable for you...leave. I am choosing to really work at this". Make her do all the work to get it done.

I actually think your counselor is right to some extent. Sit down and really talk with her about her leaving. Tell her you dont want her to go but if she needs to it is her choice. Start discussing some of the issues you have to deal with. Custody, Lawyers, leases/mortgage, money. Again tell her you dont WANT her to go but you have to accept her choice. I am willing to bet this will freak her out. All of a sudden she will have responsibility. You are not leaving. It is her choice and she has to suffer the consequeces of her actions. You have parental rights as well. Be as tough as you can but gentle. No argueing. Just smile and say I am trying to understand what you want. Isnt that what the MC told you that you had to come to grips with. Reverse psycology can be a powerfull weapon.

As odd as this sounds YOU have the upper hand right now. You know her dirty little secret. You are in the driver seat. You can start to manipulate her. It is not revenge as much as using all you have to try to save the marriage. Once this is out in the open you MUST drop the sword but right now is the battle for your marriage. What is the saying...all is fair in love and war. You have to make it physically possible to see the Y Guy but mentally taxing on her to do so. A fine line

Ever see the Exorcist? Your wife is the girl whose neck spins around. She is possessed. Once you beat the devil (I hate to use religious examples) out of her she will be back but a broken version of her old self. You have to be there to help her out and get her through. Then you may actually start getting some of the things you need. It is a long road so be patient. You are just at the begining.

Thanks for all of that Feeling Groovy.

I AM using several spyware programs, but they are trials, so they have problems. That is how I got her new email account info though. I'll try your E-blaster tonight.

I'm nervous about a lot of these sleuthing options that are expensive. NOT that I don't think my marriage is worth it, but because she is usually the one to look closely at the bills. If I paid a PI or got some fancy gadget, she would notice something on the bank or credit card statments. (Maybe I just need the right cover story)

I am good friends with the husband of one of the "Girls Night Out" women. I will ask him what he knows about it and see if it matches what my wife says.

P.S. This sucks. I'm stuck here feeling like crap and now I've got a crying baby who doesn't want to go to sleep...

fg, I should point out that he does have a keylogger on the computer and has for over a week now. He hasn't come up with anything concrete, which is why he needs to tail her or have her tailed. He has good reason to suspect they are together or are planning to get together soon. He is in dire need of some hard evidence right now to blow this affair wide open, and that is the immediate goal.

I am sorry you had a bad experience with a P.I., but many others here have had positive experiences, so I wouldn't be so quick to rule them out. I am not sure why you think she would leave to be with the OM. That doesn't usually happen in general and likely wouldn't happen here because the OM is married. Even so, it shouldn't be deterrent to investigation.


I am competely confused about this statement and wonder if you could elaborate? I don't know of Gramm doing any lying or deceiving?

I guess I lied by saying that I wouldn't check up on her any more.

She just called and is coming home already (with my desert). She couldn't have been at the restaurant for more than 40 minutes. So, I guess I didn't miss much if anything...

Gramm, do you have Actmon trial version on your computer? If you do, please email me because I have something to tell you that might resolve your problem. Did you know that many of the keyloggers will show a banner upon restart if they are in trial version?

As far as her girls night out, is there not someone you could get to tail her? Some friend? A relative? Also, you don't have to pay a P.I. on a credit card. You could pay him in cash so it wouldn't be traced.

Gramn:

I caught my FWH twice. Looking back on it, the first D-Day was the beginning of the end of his A. Yes, it was ugly. Yes, I was very upset. However, I had prepared myself. I was onto him kind of like you are. I had to see if for myself. I had been in denial too long. My denial enabled his A. Also, my denial of what seemed obvious to him made him think that I didn't care about him.

The exposure of the A made it start to seem ugly to my FWH. The fairy tale was over. They could no longer live in their romanticized dream world. I spoiled it for them. I am so thankful that I did it. So I don't necessarily agree with Feelin Groovy about finding them if you feel that you can control yourself.

Even though I had a PI, I found them myself. The PI helped me find out important info like exactly where she lived and worked, the kind of car she drives, her license no. and telephone no., etc. He also found out some other important secrets that my H had. You can save money by specifically telling them when you want their services and what for. He charged me by the hour. So, if you say, I need your assistance Wed. night, for example, that will save you. I paid cash, using some extra money I had saved.

I don't think catching her will keep her from leaving you if that is her plan. Nor will catching her cause her to leave you. Even if she leaves, exposure is essential.

I agree you are just beginning....

Hang in there....

All I was getting is that Gramn is feeling a little guilty about all the James Bond activity as I liked to call it. And to some extent he should but he is doing what he is doing for the sake of his marriage which I feel is a noble cause. A marriage should have trust, Not BLIND Trust but trust. Eventually he will have to get that level of trust back.

You know once this is out in the open his WW will go down that road and he will get the "how dare YOu" speech. Anything to deflect responsibilty. The answer is simple. You did what you did because you care enough and want to work this out. That is noble. Despite what has happened he is still willing to work it out.

I am just saying yeah it sucks but get er done. It is hard to let go of that saftey net but eventually you do have to quit spying and get on with life.

I am not totally against PI and think it is a better option than tailing her himself. Not much good can come of that for anyone.

Yes Gramn think of a reason to call her Girl Friends husband and just drop that they are going out. If you normally would not talk to him dont call. You have to cut out suspicious activity yourself. You will get what you are after. IT takes time and I know it feels like an eternity

I agree 100% no matter what the outcome the affair must be exposed. I think she is just looking for you to give her that final reason to leave so it appears to be your fault. The truth is it took both of you to get here but she is responsible for the affair and should own up to that.

A few other bits of advise. Not sure if you drink but now is a good time to stop. It is a temporary fix that will only get you in trouble. Make sure you are still active and working out. If you are like me your heart is jumping out of your chest all the time. If so go see a doctor and get meds. Most importantly take care of yourself and work on fixing you. Your daughter needs you to be strong and fight for your family.

You are referring to his wife here, right? She is the one having the affair, so I am presuming you mean that SHE is the one who will have to get back that level of trust, since she is the one who broke the trust. That won't be up to him.


I agree very much that it is for a noble cause, but he has nothing to feel guilty about. I have been trying to convince him of this. There is nothing wrong with catching someone trying to destroy you behind your back. The police don't feel guilty when they catch drug dealers, that would be ridiculous. And Gramm would be ridiculous to feel guilty for protecting himself. It is not deceitful and it is not lying to catch someone lying and being deceitful.


Some here have done their own tailing with very good results, so I wouldn't discount it. Sure, a P.I. is probably better, but not everyone can afford it. I really like Mimi's idea to cut costs by pinpointing time frames to the P.I.

The spyware i use is called 007 Spy Software. It's good, but only owrks for the first hours that the computer has been turned on!

From my talks with my wife, one thing that, at least at this point, seems to be the case, is tht she is set on leaving me no matter if I expose this or not. Hopefully exposing this will turn things around, but I'm not so sure.

If I were to use a PI, I'd give him all of the info that I already have and just ask for a few blanks to be filled in.


Here is a question: IF this is just an EMOTIONAL affair, how would I get proof? It seems like it would be much harder to prove anything? I can't say, "AHA! You talked to that guy!"

I think you already have proof of an Emotional Affair with the E-mails. At the very least, there is an inappropriate, secret friendship. Do you think she can openly call his house and talk to him?

Don't worry about whether she'll leave or not. We'll see what happens.

You've got it on how to use the PI if that is your decision.

Gramm, I think she is just bluffing about leaving you in order to get you to back off and justify her single woman act. How would she support herself if she only works parttime? Is she independently wealthy? Does she have the money to get a house?

She hardly has any money besides mine. She expects us to divorce and for me to support her. (And she is looking for a better job)
---------------------------------------

Last night she sat down with me and wanted to know why I was being so paranoid. (Coming home for lunch, calling her at work, reading a book about affairs). She said"Do you think that the only reason that I am breaking up wiht you is another man?".... I just said that I was worried but kept if vague. She was especially upset that I called her boss at work. So, I have to be more discreet.

Gramm, I think her actions are not thought out at all. She is just a married woman trying to have a little fun, at your expense. Surely, she knows that even if divorced, you wouldn't have to support her. You would have to pay child support if she got the child. Maybe a small alimony for a while, but then she's on her own.

It's time to insert a little reality into her fantasy and put an end to this. I would try hard to get your evidence lined up and confront her. When you confront her, I would explain to her the facts, that you won't be supporting her in a divorce and that you would keep the baby. This is hoping that you would not want her to tear the baby from his own safe home for a sleazy affair.

Do you have plans to tail her/have her tailed on Wednesday?

Gramn:

I would ask her to stop referring to you as being paranoid. It's perfectly reasonable and acceptable for a husband to be concerned about his wife's actions particularly if those actions are destructive to the marriage. Tell her that you love her and have reason for concern about the status of your marriage. Why wouldn't you be concerned? She keeps saying that she plans to leave you. It would be more bizarre for you not to react.

I agree with Melody that she is trying to manipulate you and to get you to back off so that she continue to play with Y GUY. You are a WARRIOR, in a fight for your marriage and family. It is not OK for her to try to manipulate you with her alien thinking. It is not OK for her to expect alimony. It is not OK for her to assume that she would be able to leave and have custody of her baby when she is currently not acting in her child's best interest. She should be working to insure that your daughter grows up in a loving family with her father present in her life. What a tragedy it would be to lose you at such a young age! Right now your wife is certainly thinking selfishly as is the case with WSes.

So your mindset is: Wife, your actions indicate that you are not trustworthy and honest. Your goal is marital destruction. Therefore, I must do everything in my power to protect myself, my baby and my marriage. I will not lay down and let you walk all over me. I will stand tall and do the right thing.

Gramm-

Go to your local computer store, and look at the el-cheapo $9.99 CD software collection. You'll probably find a few cheap versions of spyware software that are actually full versions that do not display a banner. I think that mine was called XPCSpy or something like that...and it works fine.

On tailing the wife, or checking up on her. Do you have any friends from work or wherever that she might not recognize right away? Or that drive a vehicle that she wouldn't know?

If so, see if you can recruit one of THEM to help you out as needed. Heheh, guys like to think that they're James Bond, so it could be fun, and it they're smart, you'll be amazed at how well they can do.

It's a cheap alternative to a PI. Start checking the odometer on her car. If you know how far it is to the Y or wherever she's going, you can spot discrepancies in her story that way too. I THINK I remember you saying she changed the billing option on her phone...but you should still be able to get access to an online invoice as well...most companies have them.

Ugh, so many things to consider...

I'll contact a friend today and ask what his wife has said about the "Girls night Out".

I looked up "Detectives" in our local phone book and just got security agencies. I'm not looking for an anti=theft system...

PIs also do SECURITY work. You might find a PI listed under Security Agencies. Also look under INVESTIGATORs in your YELLOW PAGES.

Ah! "INVESTIGATORS" got me a bunch of results...

I'll call a few at lunch...

They're going to be EXPENSIVE...and they take time to get the work done, as they're usually working more than one case at a time.

Give some thought to the options you've seen posted here. And don't be afraid to take a bit of time to gather your proof...while I know it is really painful to go through, it's better to be thorough.

I seriously suspected something was wrong in my marriage for at least 3 weeks prior to getting my final proof. I KNOW that she knew I suspected, so I had to back off for a while in order to let them get lax, and that's exactly what happened.

I'm going to be out of town this week! ...from Thursday night until Sunday! It will ruin my chances of investigating, but I'm sure that it would be a great time to catch them doing something...

Maybe I should be more patient, maybe I should be more proactive... Maybe they are waiting to do anything until they know I'm not in the picture... It's hard to know what to do.

Sounds like the perfect time for a PI to be watching....when they think they are "safe" enough to see each other because you are gone.

And I still recommend that you do that 'friend' thing I'd suggested...have someone keep an eye on things while you're gone.

Get the spyware/keylogger issue resolved before you go, and it would be a good way to possibly catch more info as well.

I agree!! This is the PERFECT time for intel. You out of town makes them think they can do what they want without worrying about you showing up. So, line up friends/relatives (very close ones) to become James Bond types. Plan it all out.

In His arms.

I like this friends idea, to a point...

I don't want this situation to get out, AT LEAST until i have proof. How can I bring in friend if they think they're just feeding my paranoia?

I have only lived in this area for about 1/5 yrs. and have very few friends in town here. My good friends live about an hour away...

I just called my best "local" friend and asked him what he knows about this Girls Night Out Wednesday. He said that he hadn't heard ANYTHING about it yet, but that did not mean anything, as his wife frequently doesn't tell him things like this. Also, he's out of town Wednesday, and won't be much help. Basically, I just wanted him to keep his eye out for anything strange... BUT he went out of his way to say "I REALLY do NOT think anything is going on". (I have told him some details, but not about the Y Guy emails...)

Gramm,

You are arguing for your limitations again. Stop that!

So, you have some friends an hour away? Perfect. Schedule them on different nights. Ask them as a personal favor to you to do this for you. See if they can leave work early and be in town in time to tail her.

There is a solution here Gramm. Find it. Dont worry what they think. My friends and family could not beieve when I suspected somethign going on while I was deployed. But I got my brothers and friends to go check anyway. And they were shocked to find out what they found.

Where do you live? I'll come find her. I love busting up affairs!! At one point in the A my wife said that I was hunting her down like a dog, that I had spared no expense or area in finding out everything. I told her that I wouldnt have hunt her down like a dog, if she wasnt acting like one in heat. (I know, I know...it was an LB!! But it was way to tempting to let go by! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

In His arms.

Hahah
I'm in Ohio! Want to drive over?!?

I wish! I am in the DC area. But seriously, there are people you know. Time to call in those chits.

I'll call a guy tonight and see if I can get him to come take a look...

Gramn,

Just checking in on how it is going.

I want you to know I didnt mean you should feel guilty but rather I understand how you are feeling. I felt the same way. But your reasons are just.

You cant let her words manipulate you. She is trying to keep this alive. You do need to go underground and it will take time. If she is comfortable you are not snooping around she will get herself caught. YOU have the upper hand now so go and use it.

Another item that may be useful is a phone recorder. From your looking it is obvious they dont communicate much via cell phone and she is home alone all day right? They are probably talking during the day on the land line. These are pretty inexpensive compared to your other alternatives. I am sure you have a Radio Shack in Ohio. you will also need an attachment that connects it to the phone. In total it should be about $125.00. I didnt get much since my WW and OM worked together. They used their work voicemails to communicate. I think it may do the trick in your case. I did get one message she left for him but that was after I already knew.

A little humor for you. The best thing I got on the phone recorder was her calling her Dad and telling him what a rotten person I was. How I did this and did that. The amazing thing was he was defending me and more or less told her he hadnt seen it so he cant comment on it. Anyway she eventually convinced him that he needed to sit down and have a talk with me. He told her he was not happy how I belittled my 7 year old about bed wetting. So he would discuss that with me and ask about some of the other things. Admittedly some were valid and I did take them to heart.

WW was going out of town with my eldest daughter and I was meeting my father-in-law halfway with our youngest daugther that weekend. So I had about three days to prepare myself for his speech. The whole time I knew what was going to happen. As it turns out before we were married my father in law sat me down and discussed his expectations on how I should treat his wife and children. He closed it by telling me if my daughter ever does anything to hurt me or the children I will be equally tough on her. I of course reminded him of this talk before we parted and I thanked him for being honest with me. This was two days before D-Day.

I hated playing the old man but I wanted to confront my wife personally. Regardless of what he said she is his daughter and he should defend and support her. I knew he would warn her. I also knew he would be the first person my wife would run to once exposed and she did. Now he had the dilema of living up to his word. It could not have worked out more beautifully. The moral is if you wait long enough you will get what you need. Just be patient...you have the upper hand. I played her just as bad as she played me the six weeks I lived with the knowledge of the affair. Like Owl said it is the whole James Bond thing. There was a certain thrill to the spying and mind games. Looking back it was the only form of revenge I had. It is how I got through. Once the affair is out in the open you have to immediately switch to being supportive and honest. I pretended to be everything she asked for in those 6 weeks but I really didnt begin living it until she did what I never expected. She stayed.

It took a long time before I could even begin to see the irony and humor in these experiences. You will get there as well it just takes time.

I think I have found out what is going on now...

SHe had an IM chat with her aunt in Spanish today. In spanish she told her some vital info. Look at the chat transcript that I posted in teh "just found out forum"

I want to make tomorrow "d-Day"...

------------------------------------
In addition, here are a few emails...
---------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 15:32:01 -0400
From: Y Guy
To: Wife

No yacht on my salary – maybe inheritance! I catch grief from tennis players about that statement also. What it really means (ing) is something that you can go do by yourself. By the way (Our Councillor) is here – I guess his schedule opened up.
(I cancelled councilling today)


Y Guy
We build strong kids,
strong families, strong communities.

-----Original Message-----
From: wife
Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 3:19 PM
To: Y Guy
Subject: yacht



So we'll never have a yacht?? I may have to rethink this whole thing...

And what about racquetball-ING? It is TOO a lifetime skill...

See ya later.

I still say Gramm that you need more info. All you have proven is an EA. In order to be in a position of strength, you need to find out if there is a PA. I would rethink telling her yet...and work on getting what you need.

In His arms.

Did you see the spanish stuff? The stuff about Raquetball and Yaghts isn't that interesting...

Gramm, it is interesting but it doesn't tell us anything. Wonder what the spanish stuff means? Why don't you post it here? It's busier on this board.

Do you still need a keylogger? If so, email me and I can hook you up for free.

Here is the spanish stuff again... It is from a chat with my wife's Aunt
---------------------------------
I tried it in Bablefish, but that is not good enough...
----------------------------------------

como estas, como seguiste yc omo sigue mi taita

que bien, mi papa si me tiene preocupada

mimagino, si es como un bebe con los dedos no me imagino como sera con una rasqui1 a bien horrible

nooooooo[enter]

(MY NAME) fue con (DAUGHTER), yo no[enter]

que tal[enter]

suficiente tengo con contestar el telefono uando llama mi patetica dramtica suegra[enter]

por aqui todo va lento pero tengo mi primera cita con el abogado el jueves [enter]

y mientras tanto como si no fuera suficiente con lo que esta pasando, encima estoy mas embobada con este otro hombre que ni se

el enamoramiento, si

ni idea, lo malo es que el tambien dice estar enamoradisimo

por lo menos lo mio ya esta en marcha y me he convencido de que asi tenga a mi viejo nuevo no, prefiero estar sola a estar en esta situacion

y como vas con tu catano?

--bueno muneca al ca

lo conozco??[enter]
--no se ...bueno al agua se llama Carlos L. Sanchez, alias el calvo

hmmm, nombre tan comun, no se, a lo mejor si lo veo [enter]y es papito?[enter]

o abuelito en estecaso?[enter]

jeje

claro. cerra esto

hol apapi[enter]

que te dijo elmedico

--esta es nuevo
--te lo paso?

le estoy hablando por el de el

listo chao

yo a tu

I tried it in babelfish too and just got...babel. But I posted it to my girlfriends on my private forum and I know 2 of them speak spanish and can translate it for me when they sign on.

I did pick up one thing, though. It sounds like she has an appointment with a lawyer on Thursday. "by aqui everything goes slow but I have my first appointment with the lawyer Thursday "

here is another translator:

how are you, as you continued that yc omo is still my taita

that well, my dad if it has me worried

mimagino, if he is like a baby with the fingers I do not imagine as it will be with one rasq64a horribly well

nooooooo [enter]

It (me) was with (daughter), I not [enter]

how are [enter]

sufficient I have in spite of answering the phone uando there is called mother-in-law my pathetic dramtica [enter]

hereabouts everything goes slowly but I have my first appointment with the lawyer on Thursday [enter]

and meanwhile as if it was not sufficient with what it is happening, above I am more astounded with this another man neither that nor

the infatuation, if

not even idea, the bad thing is that also he says to be the most in love

at least mine already this in march and me I have convinced that this way has my new old man not, prefer being alone to being in this situation

and since you go with your catano?

do I know it?? [enter]

hmmm, so common name, not, probably if I see it [enter] and he is a daddy? [enter]

or grandpa in estecaso? [enter]

jeje

skylight. cerra

Okay chere....well my Spanish is rusty and so many words are misspelled in chat....but there are some things that REALLY stick out.

She has her first appointment with a lawyer on Thursday (tengo mi primera cita con el abogado el jueves)...that is clear. She says she'd rather live alone that stay in this situation. She is talking about the man...she says she's fascinated (emboda) with this other man....and "falling in love" (enamoramiento) and that he is also saying he is in love with her too.

I knew about the Lawyer thing. The stuff about the other man is what I think I can finally bust her with... (Once translated better...)

You knew she was going to a lawyer?

As closely as I can translate the pertinent parts: I'm fine, inspite of the when my motherinlaw called with her pathetic dramatics. Everything here is going slowly, but I have my first appointment with an attorney on Thursday. And to make matters worse, I am fascinated with this other man. He says he's in enamored with me too.

Gramm, but what does that chat tell you? Only that she has the hots for this guy and he likes her too. It doesn't confirm an affair. Can't you hire a P.I. to watch her while you are gone so you get the real goods?

Well....it's definitely indicative an EA....but Melody is right, if you want to know whether it's become physical...you need more evidence. My guess is that the opportunity will arise this weekend and this is the time to have her followed if that is what you want to prove. *sigh* I'm sorry Gramn.

Ok, I am thinking about what the Y guy's wife will think when she sees these emails. Were I her, I would chalk it up to a minor flirtation, slap him around a bit, and move on. [after, of course, he explains it all away as some silly SAHM who has the hots for him] And when the OMW is told, the infidels will just go deeper, but continue on their merry way because the true nature of the affair has not been revealed yet.

Why not hold out for a couple more days in the hopes he can find out the REAL DEAL, instead of a flirtation with a PT by a bored, frustrated wife who is "enamored" of her personal trainer?

I just think if he has an opportunity to earn a machine gun, why settle for a pea shooter if it only means waiting a few days?

Gramn - another translation -

How are you, and how have you been doing. How's my auntie?

Good, my dad has me worried.

I imagine it's a baby with little fingers, I can't imagine_______. Kind of horrible.

Nooooo.

I went with daughter. I didn't ___________.

What else?

I have enough answering the telephone when my pathetic dramatic mother in law calls.

Around here everything is showed down and Thursday I have my first appoinment with the attorney.

And by the way, as if what is going on, after all I am enamored with another man, that I don't even know if he is in love with me.

Yes, No idea.

The bad part is he says he is very much in love with me.

At least for me it is working. He has convinced me that this way I can continue with my new man.

I prefer to be alone than in this situation.

Ha. Ha.

For sure.

What did the doctor say?

I've been talking with the doctor about him.

Bye, me to you.

I speak spanish. Starfish has translated the main parts but did you guys notice that the "aunt" asks her what the doctor said? She doesn't answer because apparently she's on the phone with the OM. At least that's what I understand is the reason for ending the chat. She does say "on top of everything else going on I am in love with this other guy and he says he's very much in love with me".

But I wonder what everything else is and why she has been to the doctor.

hope this helps.

cc46 - I am just learning Spanish - but gave my translation. What did you think this meant?

mimagino, si es como un bebe con los dedos no me imagino como sera con una rasq64a bien horrible

Gramm, why don't you put a Radio Shack recorder on your phone??

She uses her cell phone so bugging the home phone wouldn't prove much. (Might be worth a try though)

I think when I posted this, I didn't put in "Aunties" comments, so it doesn't make as much sense as it should. I'll transcribe it tonight, with both sides of the conversation.... It might help...

And just remember....that the word "enamored" in English doesn't have the same punch it does in Spanish where it means "in love". (en...in amor....love)

How do you know she always uses her cell phone? Even when at home?

Hi believer,


I think she had just asked about her uncle and this seems to be a remark about the answer which is not there.
Literally it says:
I can imagine. If he's like a baby with his fingers I can't imagine what he's like with .... (unknown, mistyped?) pretty horrible

this is spanish from the caribean I think so I don't understand all their terms

This is Colombian spanish... (Not that this will help...

Gramn - Can you give both sides of the conversation? That might help. I am barely learning Spanish, but it is very clear to me that your wife is in at least an emotional affair.

I just did that... Here is the entire conversation, with both participants, and some spelling fixes...

Any help getting the whole thing translated would be much appreciated. I get the meaning of a lot of it, but want to be sure...
W = Wife
A= Her "Single-Mother" Aunt
-------------------------------------------------------------

W- hole

A- mi linda!!! hola

W- como estas, como seguiste y como sigue mi taita

A- tu taita esta agorita mismo en la doctor, sigue re brotado y con piquina que lo enloquece

A- y yo bien ya mis amigdalas no me enloquecen

W- que bien, mi papa si me tiene preocupada

A- a todos. La abue, la mama, las tias y todos estuvimos re pendientes de la evolucion el fin de semana, hoy le he rogadfp que se vaya para le casa y se

empelote, pero ni de rodillas lo convenso... es que el es terco y se rasca demasiadisimo

W- me imagino, si es como un bebe con los dedos no me imagino como sera con una rasquina bien horrible

A- exacto, bueno y de tu que como vas?

A- me contaron que estabas donde los papas de DAD/HUSBAND, como to fue

W- nooooooo

W- DAD/HUSBAND fue con DAUGHTER, yo no

W- que tal

W- suficiente tengo con contestar el telefono cuando llama mi patetica dramtica suegra

W- por aqui todo va lento pero tengo mi primera cita con el abogado el jueves

A- a el papa me dijo que estabas tu tambien, a mi si me parecio bastante extrano pero bueno me dije a mi misma mi misma como esta de civilizada mi

sobrinta

W- y mientras tanto como si no fuera suficiente con lo que esta pasando, encima estoy mas embobada con este otro hombre que ni se diga

A- como asi, cada vez peor?

W- el enamoramiento, si

A- bueno y donde dejamos el periodo de relajacion para que la separacion nos salga como es debido?

W- ni idea, lo malo es que el tambien dice estar enamoradisimo

W- por lo menos lo mio ya esta en marcha y me he convencido de que asi tenga a mi viejo nuevo o no, prefiero estar sola a estar en esta situacion

W- y como vas con tu catano?

A--bueno muneca, mi catano divino

W- lo conozco??

A--no se ...bueno al agua se llama Carlos A. Sanchez, alias el calvo

W- hmmm, nombre tan comun, no se, a lo mejor si lo veo
W- y es papito?

W- o abuelito en este caso?

W- jeje

W- claro. cerra esto

W- hola papi

W- que te dijo elmedico

A--esta es nuevo
A--te lo paso?

W- le estoy hablando por el de el

W- listo chao

W- yo a tu

Gramn:

Well, I can't help with the spanish (never even BEEN 2 Spain!), but I remembered something that Spacecase put on our iloveulove page about James Bond types:

"James Bond: Spies & Lies

He won’t tell you where he lives. She will give you only a work number. He’s evasive about his history, friends, job and background. A year after you marry her, you find out she’s been married before. A mistress shows up. You find bills for credit cards you didn’t know you had.

Secrets and the lies that support them make it very hard to make an emotional connection. In part that’s because the secrets create a wall. In part it’s also because the secrets take a lot of energy to maintain and that energy is stolen from having a relationship with a person.

James Bonds are secret-keepers who withhold information from people with whom they are in a relationship. Sometimes this is because they believe the secrets give them power or an illusion of mystery and excitement; other times it is because the revelation of the secrets will end the relationship and they won’t get what they want-the reason for keeping secrets in the first place.

When you get into a relationship with a James Bond, you may enjoy the mystery at first. It’s kind of exciting not to know when he or she will suddenly appear to sweep you into whatever passed for his or her Aston Martin or private jet and then just as suddenly disappear again.

As the relationship moves along, however, predictability becomes more important and desirable to you, but the James Bond has no interest in being trapped by your rational expectation of continuity in the relationship.

You begin to snoop. Bond leaves you alone in the car or the apartment for a few minutes, and your fingers stray to the glove compartment or desktop. You hate yourself for what you’re doing, but you can’t stop. Bills, letters, scraps with phone numbers-a flood of information without explanation. What you’re looking for are the missing pieces of James Bond’s life that you don’t get to know. The problem is that you have no threads to weave into a fabric of truth. All you have is scraps that have no clear meaning.

Or, worse perhaps, you DO find something; a breathless love letter you didn’t write, a sexy card you didn’t send, a photo that isn’t you. Now what do you do? Now you have information and a whole new conundrum. In order to confront James Bond with the information, you have to admit you’ve been snooping. Then Bond has the perfect out: he or she can get mad at you for snooping, and never have to own up to the rest of it.

The other thing that happens is that you lose trust completely. Being in a relationship with someone you don’t trust isn’t being in a relationship at all. It begins to undermine your trust in yourself as well and that undermines your self-image, which makes you more vulnerable, which undermines your self-confidence-you can see the descending spiral here.

Meanwhile, James Bond isn’t making any changes. The secrets and lies continue, surrounded by denials and protestations of honesty or indignation that you would even suspect him or her of not being completely truthful.

James Bond has difficulty with both truth and honesty, which makes trust impossible.

The sad thing is that even if he or she changes completely, it’s still really hard to build trust because of the history. So you get more and more suspicious and less and less trusting while James continues along the self-focused path of getting his or her needs met above all else.

When the situation (we can’t really call this a relationship) finally blows up-and these relationships almost invariably blow up rather than fade away-your ability to trust anyone blows right with it. The next person who comes into your life will be under the microscope, and that is a very uncomfortable spot for anyone. The new potential partner often departs to avoid being distrusted at every turn."

- "How to Recognize Emotional Unavailability and Make Healthy Relationship Choices" - Bryn Collins


-ol' 2long

2Long-- Intersting article, but it does not really fit us.

For the last 5 years we've been together and trusted one another. I have always trusted heer, and I think she's trusted me. And if I ever snooped in her stuff for some reason, it always came out exactly as it should be.

BUT NOW, she thinks I'm snooping and doesn't trust that. I know she's doing things behing my back, and I dont trust her. It's really sad...

Gramn,
I don't have time now to do the whole translation, but basically in the first part they talk about her uncle ho has some skin condition probably which he scratches. then the aunt asks her how her things are and she says that she's ging to see a lawyer on thursday and the aunt says thatW's father told her about that and she says she thought how civilized her niece had become...
then WW says :
and as if what's going on isn't enough I'm more more fascinated with this guy

and the aunt asks : what's worse?
and she answers the fascination (feelings)

and the aunt asks: so where is the "reaxing" period so that the separation works out well?
WW: no idea. the bad thing is that he says he's very much in love too.
At least I've started doing something and I've convinced myself that whether or not I get my new guy, I'd rather be alone than in this situation.


the rest of the conversation is about the aunt's "catano", which I deduce may be a lover or friend. In thsi case he's the guy mentioned by name.
the question about the doctor is made to the aunt.


have to go to work but will check back later

Thanks for the info. I was wondering how the Doctor fit in. (I'm not aware of my Wife talking to any doctor...)

----------------------------------------------------
Last night, Wife took a pregnancy test claiming that she was worried from our last time(about a month ago?) It was negative, so didn't come to anything or really proove much.

When I went to bed, I wasn't sure how I'd proceed today. I wanted to make today D-Day, but was thinking that I needed more proof... BUT, this morning...

Wife hops online and sends a message while I was brushing my teeth or something... A few minutes later, she takes a shower and I check it out...

(Paraphrasing)

From: Wife
To: Y Guy

I had an AMAZING time with you last night. And, see, everything is OK, I took a TEST. I told you not to worry.

Thinking of you...

-------------------------------------------------------

THAT should be enough proof. I can't drag this out any more. I now have proof of an emotional and physical affair.

I'm not sure that this will help my crumbling marriage, but I damn well want to break this up...

Any advice on how I should proceed today??!

Yikes! You must be upset right now. Have you thought how you are going to contact the Y guy's wife?

That is what I would do.

I've got his home phone number. I hope she's a stay at home type person. I didn't find any other records of her...

Taking the pregnancy test means the PA has been going on for awhile. She wouldn't just take it the next morning.

It also means she is having unprotected sex with you and the OM. Yuck. You need to protect yourself.

I would inform the OM's wife today. She can watch him while you are gone. Also I would let the Y know.

That's absolutely enough in my mind at least. I'm sorry you're going through this, but I would agree that you've got the evidence you need...all of it added together.

You're suggesting to tell his wife and the Y, but not to inform my wife yet?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Was she out last night?

I am with OWL, you have the goods. Are you ready to launch the nuke?

Gramn -

When you tell your wife, she will deny it, and make up some excuse. I had the motel bills, and even caught my WH and OW in bed. WH STILL denied it. But it was all the proof I needed.

Your wife is obviously in fantasyland. I would inform the OM's wife today, and also let the Y know. Your wife will be furious, but they all are when caught. She'll get over it, and hopefully the A will end when exposed.

--She was working last night until 8... But she stayed after for about 1/2 hour?!

I called the OM's house, and he picked up! Maybe he has the day off? I just said "wrong number"... Not very smooth, but seemingly didn't tip him off.

He is the CEO of this Y! I'd like to contact his boss, but I have no idea who that is!

I agree with the need to tell the wife first. Today. Then you and the Y GUY's wife can work together. If she is a SAHM, she certainly doesn't want him to lose his job at the Y.

ok, Gramm, lets talk about this. First off, I think you should put together a pecking order of exposure here.

I would suggest the following order:

1. OM's W. You want to get to her before her H does.
Call the Y and ask what time YGuy will be there and then call his wife when you know he is gone

2. IMMEDIATELY afterwards, confront your W. Tell her you KNOW she is having an affair with the OM and that she was with him last night. DO NOT GIVE UP YOUR SOURCE, just tell her that you have someone watching her. Tell her you don't have to prove what you both know is true. Tell her you have also told the OM's wife about their affair.

3. Call the Y and get the names and #s of the board members. Tell them that Yguy is having an affair with your W and it is breaking up your family. You don't appreciate it one bit and wonder if they would like this information to get out?

I think you are ready to launch to nuke, HOWEVER, it will be a terrible time to expose if you are leaving town tomorrow. When will you be back?

Now, lets think through possible reactions. She will likely be furious about all this and attack you for checking up on her. [tell her she was being dishonest with you so you are justified in checking up on her - don't let her guilt you with this nonsense, ok?]

She may threaten to leave and take the baby. Let her know that she cannot take your baby. Tell her that you love her and want your marriage to work, but you won't stop her from leaving. Tell her also that you will do what it takes to save your marriage.

Do not let her take your baby
Do not leave your home
Do not let her bait you into a fight

Be calm, calm, calm, and FIRM in your resolve.

I agree T-totally with Mel!

I will be here listening and praying for you!

Any chance you can postpone your trip due to a family emergency?

This trip is for an interview, so no, I can't postpone it. I could postpone this confrontation, but that will just leave me stressed out about this from now until monday night! It would also leave my fresh dirt, not so recent...

On the other hand, if I drop this bomb then take off, that is not so good either...

I called the Y again. He is there...

So, maybe I should go for the spouse now... Argh, so many factors.

Melody is right. Time to launch. That last email sealed the deal. You wont need to get pictures now.

I want to add something here. First off, get a notebook and keep at work. Everyday, write in it everything said and done, starting with the last week. Everyday, write in this journal. Why? Because if this thing goes to court, that journal will be HUGE to determining what's what. Also, document everything you do with your child. And I would even step up the amount of contact and things you do with her/him. Document EVERYTHING!! Take this from a guy that had to go thru this.

An example...you go to court and bring up this recent email about the test. Your wife's lawyer has an "explanation" for it...but syays she wasnt talking about a pregnancy test. Then your lawyer whips out your journal where you describe how she told you that she was taking the pregnancy test that evening. Do you see? Cover your bases.

Why am I talking about court? Because, first off, since your wife is in an affair, your first responsibility is to protect that child! You need to have custody, you need to protect her/him. Second, the more you hem her in, the more likely this affair will blow wide open. When the secrecy is over, when EVERYTHING is out in the open, when she is about to lose her child, lose her means of income from you, her house, when the OM is about to be taken to the cleaners by his wife, when there is pressure from the Y HQ on him because he is sleeping with a married woman he met there...this thing is going to blow up in their faces!! They are going to run scared.

They will turn to each other for help...but the other cant help them. They will both be too busy with their own problems.

This is why you must have everything in a row before you launch the nuke!! Have your attorney ready with the paperwork. Do not launch the nuke today, before you go out of town. You may come home to a empty house, your child gone and a court order to stay away.

Like I said, your marriage wont be over if you launch paperwork first. It will actually help it, because you will force it into an arena where you control the decisions and outcomes. She will fight for awhile. But once she realizes she cant win...most surrender.

You stay cool and collected during all of this. Stay calm. Right now, she has betrayed you and you feel helpless. Well, guess what? The tables are about to turn for you and her. Once you launch, if you have ALL of your ducks in a row (to include a daycare plan for your child if you do get temporary custody), you will be calling the shots from here on out. You will feel power come back into your life.

But I caution you. If you take that power and use it to try to destroy your wife, God will not help you. And you will make sure that she never comes home. The power I talk about is boundaries. You will have the legal and financial set-up, along with the exposure to the entire community, that says to your wife "I will not condone this. This is inappropriate and immoral, and I will not condone this. Thus, I have done these steps in order to protect myself, our family and our future. The next step will be yours, WW. If you want to fight all of this, then I am prepared to go that route and meet any offensive you might take. But, I would rather you come home and let us work on our marriage and find our future together. But either way, WW, you must understand, from this point on...I will not stand by and allow this to continue."

Are you ready? You have enough to blow the doors right off of this thing (although, I still say the pictures would be great for exposing to the community). Spen these next days getting all of the things you need. Have your attorney get things ready. Set up things so if she bolts, you can take care of your daughter (do NOT let her leave with your kid!!). Get all the info on the Y board, on the OMW, on where to go to expose this even more. Shoot, I even had a plan where friends of mine would picket the business that my wife's OM ran, with signs for everyone to see about how the manager of this business was helping to destroy a family.

Have EVERYTHING together BEFORE you launch. Yo uare going to want to go off on her tonight. I know. You need restraint right now. Get that journal and start writing. Do these other things TODAY! Have your plan, just like a battle plan we use in the military, on when and where you will strike.

Exposure should happen all at once. A letter to the Y board should go out the same day you talk to OMW. Then talk to your wife. Then you and baby leave for a little while to let the steam wear off...as you contact her parents. and begin to contact others in the community to expose. When you come back home, be prepared to take a few days off in order to protect your kid. Depending on her reaction, I would probably launch at least the temporary custody paperwork the same day as exposure.

All of this will hit her, and the OM...very hard and all at once. They will not know what to do. They do not have a plan. They will not expect all of this.

Plan it all out now. Do not make the mistake of launching early or ill-prepared. Dont do it. Look your kid in the eyes and promise him/her that you will do this. You are trying to protect him/her. And trying to help save her family and her mother. That's what did it for me. When I looked at my three kids, it all became very clear on what I had to do.

In His arms.

Also, NEVER reveal your sources unless you are prepared to lose them. If you show emails to OMW, then expect not to be able to get any more intel from that source. Personally, I would try to find another way. That is why I like if you can get other sources, or pictures of them together. That way, you can easedrop in on their emails to how they feel and what they are going to do about it. Think this thing thru.

In the military, we called it "third tier effects." We decided on a plan. We then looked at what that plan would do, and all possible outcomes (first tier). We then planned responses to all of those possible outcomes (second tier). And then we looked at what responses would come fro mthat, and had responses ready for those reactions (third tier).

By doing that, then you will be prepared...and you will be able to know what the best course of action (COA) to take in any given situation. As has been said before, you are at WAR now. War for your family, war for your child, war for your wife. Conduct it as a war.

In His arms.

Thanks mortarman...

I've already got a journal on my HD that I've been documenting all of this in...

I know that she is meeting with a Lawyer tomorrow. (Probably for preliminary steps) I am still trying to find a good one. A friend of my Father's is a local judge. I called him to see if he'd give me advice... I hope he calls back. Either way, I'd better find one fast...




--------------------------------------------------
WHen I do confront her, should I show her print outs of emails and phone bills and all that, or just leave things vague? I have been thinking of doing a little of both...

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what to "accuse" her of if I'm not going to show her proof. I can use some old and already "spilled" proof, but that is not anything she doesn't already know. I can say that I know that they were together yesterday, but I can't go into detail.

Should I ignore her cross-examinations, or let her know that I know some things? I don't want to give up sources, but I do need to make this an "open and shut" case...

Very simple. Tell her that you KNOW that they've had sex, that she's worried that she's pregnant by him, and that is why she was using up the films. Make it very clear that you're not lying, but if she asks how you know, just say 'that's not important here, what's important is I know the TRUTH now".

BTW...when you share the evidence with the OMW, make sure that you let her know that you are NOT telling your W how you know, and that she's not to share that information with her WH either. She should stick to her guns too, and simply say 'OWH has given me irrefutable proof of what's going on'.

Yes, ignore her cross examinations, they are only a diversion to put you off the subject. You do not have to justify yourself or "prove" anything. You know the truth. You don't have to "prove" what you both know is true.

If she asks you to "prove it" she is really asking you to show your hand so she can guage how much you know.

Don't ASK her if it's true, tell her you KNOW its true because you have had her tailed and ask for an explanation.

I have printed up copies of all of this for OMW, and I placed a call to her house and asked her "Did you go to Lincoln high school in 87?" (She said no) So, I have not revealed the truth yet, but I am ready...

Listen to OWL!

Here is what I'm thinking of presenting:
Any additions/comments are welcome:
------------------------------------------------
I KNOW that they've had sex with YGuy and are having some sort of secret relationship.

Based on that email account that we discussed a few weeks ago, you've been at LEAST corresponding since December!

You placed many calls to his cell phone, at times when I was not around! Then you had our cell bill sent to some obscure email account to cover this up.

That message on your cell phone "Hi Sweetheart" was definatley his voice. I listened to him on video. It was not "Gay Dave"...

You've used MORE of those Vaginal Films since we had the conversation about you "testing" them...

You recently had a bladder infection. The MAIN cause of those infections is SEX. We had not had sex for quite a while before the infection.

You took a pregnancy test, even when it was VERY unlikely that it was me.

You were with him on Tuesday Evening. I have proof of this.


-------------------------------
How's that??

First off, make it written, not on your HD. Your wife's lawyer can say that you went back in and changed things around...easily done on hard drive. Harder when it is printed in a journal.

Secondly, she is making her move my man!! She is seeing an attorney to line things up for herself. And I told you, the first to file has the advantage. You do not have much time. Get to an attoenry's office TODAY...NOW. Tell him/her what is going on and that you think she is seeing an attorney in order to file. Tell him you want paperwork expedited, to be filed by Friday (and delivered to your wife on Monday). In the meantime, arrange everything dealing with your child, and with exposure so you can do it Monday when you get back. Take off from work next week.

Time to go. Get this stuff done. Stop typing here, and get out there and get things started. Come back here i nthe evening to report back in on what you learn or questions. The time for talking is over. Time for action.

A little? Might as well show her everything. No. Do not show her your sources. Do not discuss it in a way that she would know that you read her emails. Having access to her emails will be a great source of intel during all of this. This is where you learn to bluff. You only release enough info so she knows you know. Tell her that you know, you have had sources checking on her, and have all the evidence needed. That this isnt a discussion on whether or not she is sleeping with OM.

Then you bluff. As you release tiny tidbits of info, she will think you know more. If you release everything at once, she will know where you stand and will deal with that...and you have nothing else.

Better for her to have the demons running thru her mind on "What is going on? What does he know? What will he do next?" She will run to OM for comfort and for support. But he wont be able to help her. He will be fighting his own war.

When you talk to OMW, dont show her emails. Just discuss what you know, and what they are planning. Say that you have sources. Tell her you have filed for custody, that you have sent letters and such out in order to expose this to family and friends. Ask her is she would like to come here. At the very least, she will become your partner in destroying the affair.

Hold your best cards. Bluff. Do not reveal sources. If she guesses right, have the same answer as when she guesses wrong..."I will not discuss how I found out. I just know what is going on."

Before I stop here, let me give you an example:

Do not say "I know OM was worried about you being pregnant." How would you possibly know that? She will ask herself that. And she will figure out that you read her email.

The right way? "I know that you have been having unprotected sex with the OM. My sources have clearly shown me what you have been upto." A lie? No. But, when she hears that, she will read a lot into it. Does he have a PI following them? Friends? Coworkers? Remember, one email stated that they wondered if anyone at work knew.

So, start planning this out. But first off, go to the attorney's office now and file for temporary custody and protect your assets. If she wants to leave, she leaves with nothing but her clothes and personal items. The rest of the family stuff stays with the family.

Go NOW!!

In His arms.

First I have to find a lawyer..
Oh boy....

Gramm,

No, No, No!!! You are revealing sources. You are acting like you have to make her believe she is having an affair. She knows she is having one.

When/if you go to court, then you can reveal everything. For now? You just walk up and say "I know EVERYTHING! I know about your tryst the other night. I know what you two are upto. I know everything. I am now drawing boundaries to protect me and this family. I hope you will agree to NC with OM and you and I try to find a way to work this out and make out marriage better. But until you do, I will do what I have to do to protect this family." She says "What do you know? How do you know?" You say "It matters naught my sources. Just trust me, I have enough sources and enough information to hold up in a court of law (and she will be served the next day...and that will really drive home that you DO have enough info). I dont need to tell you anything except that I know EVERYTHING (this is a bluff...you do not know everything, but she doesnt need to know that)."

Get it? Dont explain. Dont rationalize. Do not expose sources. Just tell her you know and are taking steps to protect you and the family, and protect the future of your marriage, when/if she decides to do the right thing.

Now, have you taken off for that attorney or not? She is going. I'll bet a weeks pay she is headed to have paperwork drawn up to file. Of course, right now, she is not in a hurry. But when you drop the bomb, she will be. But by then, she will have been served and you will be in control.

In His arms.

Where do you live...what town???

Gramm, since you are in the fight of your life right now, I am going to do something here. Email me at this email address below your phone number (cell). I will then call you and you will have my cell number. That way, you can call immediately during this and I can guide you thru this.

I had to go thru all of this. I did it all. I know where the pitfalls are. I also know how to keep you two steps ahead of her.

xxx@yyy.com

In His arms.

I contacted several law firms and have 2 apts. for tomorrow. (I won't mention this to her)

Good. Now, start planning out (maybe just do it on here, and we can help) your battle plan. What you are going to do. When? How? Who else is involved with that specific task? What do you need to do ahead of time to make that task happen?

In His arms.

Agree with Mortarman 110%. Take your time away to prepare. The natural instinct is to run and tell everyone. Give yourself the downtime to think it all out. GET A LAYWER. They usually wont TELL you what to do but will lay out the options.

DO NOT tip you hat to how you go the info. Say you had her followed on occasion and have known for some time but was hoping she would come clean on her own. The pregnancy test was the last straw. You had to think about your own health and your childs. I made the mistake of giving up all my sources.

I know it would expose your source but did you ever consider putting up emails in the locker room at the Y. Nothing like a good gossip story to blow everything wide open and make it uncomforatable for all.

Once open and admitted you back off immediately and focus on fixing the family. She will have that sick feeling you have had the past weeks.

Take care and have a plan A B C D and think of all the possible outcomes but be prepared for the unexpected. Also, do not take what is said initially seriously. To take the fight bait. Remain calm but firm. Lay it out like it is and dont back down. You are in charge now.

To this very day, I have not told my FWH how I found out ANY info. It has made me seem more powerful to him- almost magical. It was evident that I was fighting for my marriage. He, of course, did not voice his appreciation of this then. Now, looking back, all of that was part of PLAN A. He had tried to convince himself that I didn't care about him. He was openly carrying on an A and for months and months I didn't ask any questions about his estrangement with me and his absences. When I started to get onto him, he recognized that I wanted him and my marriage. He knew that I was "fighting" for him and he found that appealing. This was in opposition to the OW's insistence that she was the "ONLY ONE" who loved him.

So I'm encouraging you to not feel the need to tell her anything. This is part of the BATTLE STRATEGY. We hear you, MM!!

I simply stated to him as others have suggested: "I KNOW such and such. What could he say? What I was saying was fact. It did not matter how I knew and what he was doing was wrong. I agree that there is no need to justify and explain to her what you know to be fact.

While in the fog, they are sloppy and do not have a plan of attack. All they care about is continuation of the A, trying to continue their drug fix. You are the one with the PLAN. You are the one who is standing up for what is RIGHT.

OK,
Option 1.. I do nothing... She will gradually or soon file for divorce and try to be "fair" about it...
(That option sucks)

Option 2. I spring the trap tonight. She will be unprepared, but I will not be in a position to do anything as I have to leave tomorrow night.

Option 3: I visit one of these lawyers tomorrow afternoon and see what they have to say. (I just talked to someone from the most highly reccomended office in town... She suggested just waiting to counter what Wife does...)

When I expose, here is my plan...

1) Talk to OMW. Maybe meet with her and show her SOME evidence. Hopefully i can get her to agree not to spoil my sources.

2) Confront My wife. Give her the "I know what is going on" speech, but keep if vague.
--If she threatens to take the baby, I'll have to have some plan... (Those temporary custody things are apprently hard to get)
3) Email OM with a picture of my family and a short note saying "Please cease all contact with our family."

4) Email other Y employees. (Not sure which ones yet)

5) call some of Wife's friends and let them know what is going on.

6) Call Wife's parents, (maybe...)

Follow Mortman's advice. He is an expert in this.

If you are going crazy, come here and vent. We will support you.

Gramn - Foundareason here. I was directed to your post as we are in almost the same boat. I was following your thread when it was new, but dropped off the last couple of hellish days.

I will pray for your sitch. God knows I am praying for mine.

Here we gooooooooooooooooooo...............

Wait to see what Mortarman says.

I agree that he definitely is the EXPERT on THE ART OF WAR!!

Good luck to you Foundareason...

Thanks. Gotta go to WW's suprise birthday party with the young-uns.

God's speed.

Okay, good start. A couple issues here.

First, who said temporary custody is hard to get? If your wife decides to leave the day of exposure, how do you plan on keeping the child with you? You two gonna have a tug-o-war? You gonna wait on your lawyer to try to get her back from your wife later on? No way!! You have the paperwork drawn up ahead of time. Then, when the bomb drops and she starts wanting to take the child and leave, you take the child and go to a friends house for a little while. In the meantime, call your attorney and tell him to file the paperwork immediately. Look, your attorney will draw up the paperwork if you tell him to. You're paying for it. And by having it ready, you can launch immediately.

If you dont, then its possible your wife will run with the child. Many attorney's will tell the woman to do just that, because then it will be hard to get the child back. Judges do not like to change things, do not like to make kids jump from where they already are, unless there is a damn good reason. So, you make sure that you stay in that house, the family home...and that the child, and the furntiture, etc stays with the family. When she leaves, she will then also be guilty of abandonment.

Next thing...

Your exposure plan is good (first tier). Now, I want you to take each of those categories and write on here all of her possible reactions to it. Once you do that, then we can come up with your second tier.

In His arms.

OK, her reactions...

I visit one of these lawyers tomorrow afternoon and see what they have to say. (I just talked to someone from the most highly reccomended office in town... She suggested just waiting to counter what Wife does...)
---- REACTION-- She will be happy, that I am going along with her wishes


1) Talk to OMW. Maybe meet with her and show her SOME evidence. Hopefully i can get her to agree not to spoil my sources.

----OMW REACTION-- She might already know

----OMW REACTION--She might be shocked and flip out

----OMW REACTION--She might want more information. If so, I will offer to meet her and provide proof.

WIFE's REACTION... I won't tell her...
WIFE's REACTION... Accuse me of destroying someones family


2) Confront My wife. Give her the "I know what is going on" speech, but keep if vague.

WIFE's REACTION...She will yell, and accuse me of whatever she can. She will say I'm paranoid and that "I have no respect for you". She will leave and try to take the baby.


WIFE's REACTION...She threatens to take the baby...

--I will tell her about the papers I have ready to claim temporary custody.
--I could have the baby somewhere safe before starting this... WIFE's REACTION...Even more freaked out and bent on revenge. --Not sure that this is the way to go.

3) Email OM with a picture of my family and a short note saying "Please cease all contact with our family."

WIFE's REACTION... She might say not to harass her friends...


4) Email other Y employees. (Not sure which ones yet)

WIFE's REACTION... She might say not to harass her friends...
WIFE's REACTION... She might be shocked and embarrased that I would do this


5) call some of Wife's friends and let them know what is going on.

WIFE's REACTION... She will say not to harass her friends...
WIFE's REACTION... She will be shocked and embarrased that I would do this

6) Call Wife's parents, (maybe...)

WIFE's REACTION... She might say not to harass her family...
WIFE's REACTION... She will be shocked and embarrased that I would do this

I don't see why you have to have anything legal set up to take your baby somewhere safe- while you are in the midst of exposure.

Are your parents nearby?

I think WSes would be considered temporarily insane. Do not expect her to react rationally to any of this. How does she typically react in an emotionally-charged situation? How does she typically react when she is out of control? Think of how she has reacted in the past and multiply this...

You are the one who will have A PLAN! She is desperate for more DRUGS...

Gramn - Don't count on her be shocked and embarrassed. That would be a normal person's reaction. But she is not normal right now. Expect her to be angry and to blame everything on you.

It will be your fault if OM's wife knows, your fault if his family breaks up, your fault if her parents, friends, the Y, etc. find out. That is just the way they think. WS's NEVER look at the behavior that got them into this mess.

And she will probably tell you that she doesn't trust YOU, after what you have done. What a joke.

Okay. And that part is good in a way. But I still say that this lawyer may not be gettign the full picture. Every lawyer that has helped a man get custody of his kids (and is good at it) says to strike first. That to wait is to leave too much to chance. If you file for custody first, and hold onto your child..then the judge will just allow the child to stay where they are at until the full hearing. And between now and the hearing, you begin to operate as if WW isnt coming back, and document. That way, when you go to the full hearing, your child will be in a routine, in a good environment. Meantime, your wife will only show that she is a woman and wants her child. But also will have to admit to her dishonest and crazy behavior. The judge will side with you, not wanting to upset the applecart.

But she will now know is that there is someone else ready to blow it wide open. Her livelihood, her standing in the community, will be at stake. She will either have to join you so she can mitigate damage...or be run over by the freight train that you have started.
Again, lead her where you want her to go. If she sounds like she wants to save her marriage, then you can direct her here, or to Dr. Harley's books. If she is just going to kick the [censored] out, then you will need to prepare yourself for that...as the OM will then want to run to your WW.
So, on this one...the answer is "Who cares?" As was said by another poster here, durign this time, she will say everything. Listen to very little of it. She doesnt know what she is saying or doing. We all know the reality is her and the OM are destroying his family.
Okay, this is the battle plan for this. Do you have a relative or friend that the baby can stay with while you tell her? One where your wife will not know where your child is. I did this. My brother had recently moved, and my wife did not know where his new house was. When my wife came home, the kids were at my brothers and I was waiting for her. She got angry and wanted me to leave. I said no way. She then said she was taking the kids and leaving. But funny thing...it was hard to take them when they werent there. She screamed that she wanted to know where her kids were. She even went to my Mom's to see if they were there. But I told her that they were safe and that she would see them soon. But we needed to deal with this first. Then I also told her that the affair had to end, or if not, she could leave...but the family stays together here. If she wants to remain a part of the family, she can stay...with no OM. She ran off screaming...and I brought the kids home that night. I was protected in the fact that I kept them close to me over the next few days, and my attorney had already filed for custody. Do not let your child be there when this goes down. it will be ugly, and the child WILL get in the middle. Find someone to leave the child with for the evening. Tell your wife you have to go to the store and take the kid with you to get some "ice cream." Then contact OMW and drop the bomb. Then hurry your butt home and talk to her and tell her you know before the OM calls (the way to do this is to ask OMW to give you an hour before confronting OM, so you can get home before he knws).

No. No threats here, Gramm. That is a threat. Have the papers already ready and signed. Then file them to be delivered to her on D-Day + one (the day after). It wont end the marriage. Yes she will be pissed. But your power now comes from drawing the boundaries. In this war, you now set where the battle will take place, and when. As any combat veteran will tell you, setting the time and place and manner of engagement almost certainly gives you the advantage.

As you read above, I think this IS the way to go! Protect your child FIRST!!

Who cares? This isnt a problem. I like the email idea. there is no bad side to this. You can just ignore her rantings on this one.

Do this after the first round of exposure to OMW and confronting WW. Wait for the reaction and the day to die down. Who cares what she says about "harassing" her friends? Ignore that stuff. Will she be embarassed? I certainly hope so. Insteresting isnt it? She wants to continue somethign she is ashamed of...I would actually say that to her if she says she is embarassed.

Same as above.
This will be the second round of exposure, before her friends and his friends. Again, it doesnt matter what she says. Also, you must understand that even though you expose to all of these people, many (most?) will not side with you...and definitely not help you. So, you must understand why you are exposing. It is to shed the light of day...the truth...on the affair. Some of these people will already know, but will only have one side of the story. So, have your "form letter" drawn up, the one you send to family and friends (her parents you should talk to directly AND give them the form letter). This letter should just spell out what has happened, what your wife is up to...and that you want to save the marriage. That you are drawing boundaries and will wait on your wife to do the right thing and end the affair.

Okay. All of the things in black are the second tier. Now, let all of this sink in. The third tier is what you will do in reaction to all of these reactions. What is your course of action (COA)?

You see...by being two steps ahead of her, you will frustrate the hell out of her. Everytime she tries to do something, you have already been there and countered it BEFORE she did it. Frustrating. Look, she is going to have to surrender from her rebellion. But first of all, she has to be put in a no win situation. All avenues of escape closed. By having your ducks in a row, you will encircle her. And then you will launch the artillery. When it is all over, she will have no choice but to surrender...or be "destroyed."

In His arms.

Believer is right. She will say that if you really loved her, you wouldnt have done all of this. You wouldnt have ruined her life.

Do not listen to this malarchy. For the first little while, almost everything that will come out of your wife's mouth will be bile...crap. Ignore it. Bring it here and we can help you decifer it (because sometimes, there will be nuggets of truth in there).

-----------------

On a short note...how are you feeling? Ready for battle? You just found out that your wife is definitely cheating on you. That is a powerless feeling. I know.

But now that you are gettign a plan together...now that you know that in just a few hours/days, you will be the one in control...how does that feel? I know this all sucks...but I do know the feeling of gaining control. It is what allows us BSs to get up on our feet and to move forward. And many times, to save our marriages.

What you are doing now is what we call in the infantry our "Pre-Combat Checks." It is where you make sure you have all your weapons, all your intel, all your stuff. Food, water, communications. Rehearsals where you go over and over the plan making sure it will work...down to driving all the routes you will have to take on D-Day in order to make sure that your timing is correct. Getting your stuff together.

The "enemy" right now is doing no such thing. They are lying around, sleeping...enjoying themselves. But the hour is coming where they will meet you in "combat." Where you will rock their silly little fantasy world. Believe me, that OM will NEVER forget your name!!

And later on, when/if your wife comes home, she will say to you what mine did. That the beginning of her coming home out of the fog was her seeing me stand up and stand up to her. Taking charge. Defending our marriage and our family.

Hard for a woman not to like a knight on a white horse, huh?!?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

In His arms.

You make it all sound easy...

The plan itself shouldn't be too hard. I hope the OMW is available when I'm ready to contact her. If not, I might have to postpone, once I'm ready.

I'm worried about the reprocussions. Even though these actions might bust up the affair, I'm sure that they are a big "Love Buster".


No. No threats here, Gramm. That is a threat. Have the papers already ready and signed. Then file them to be delivered to her on D-Day + one (the day after). It wont end the marriage. Yes she will be pissed. But your power now comes from drawing the boundaries. In this war, you now set where the battle will take place, and when. As any combat veteran will tell you, setting the time and place and manner of engagement almost certainly gives you the advantage.

This part concerns me most. I don't want to file for divorce. If I do, and present her with papers, she'll probably just sign them. How does that help?

Simple, yes! Easy, no!

OK, Maybe this is a state law thing, I don't know. I just got off the phone with one of the law offices here.


All of this would take about a week
I CAN file for divorce and request temporary custody, and they will serve that to her. BUT this would be a REQUEST! Not a court order. At least in this state, they can't do court orders of that kind. If she agreed to the filing, then it would go into effect. Most likely, she would contest it.

I LOVE THIS PLAN! PERFECT, MORTARMAN!!



Is she a SAHM? Does she have a job? Figure out a way to be sure to find her.

Your goal now is to EXPOSE the A, bring it out into the open. That is your primary goal now, not necessarily to "bust it up" as you say.

Not a love buster at all. Nope. Go read up on love busters, what they are. Exposure to an affair is not a love buster. Just because she gets angry, doesnt make it a love buster.

I filed and never pushed it forward. It was having the paperwork in first. I nthe meantime, I had made sure the kids were with me and werent going to go anywhere. My attorney and I made it very clear to my wife that we would have a very liberal visitation schedule until there was a hearing (which didnt happen until over two years later when she walked out for the third and last time). That their home would remain their home and that I would be their primary caretaker. Of course, she was told that she could petition for custody in court. What that did was get her to think "Well, I have a little while to run around and then I can come back and the court will give me my child. Afterall, I am a woman. And they dont take kids away from mothers." Bullcrap! But let her think what she wants. Right now, you are protecting the family, protecting your child. As Steve Harley told me, those kids are your greatest asset and motivator toward your wife coming home. They will be what keeps her not too far away...and eventually she will want to come home.

My wife counterfiled this last August after moving out and trying to take the kids with her. We had been going thru a false recovery, where she did no work to work on the marriage. But, I maintained their primary caregiver, as I had been since April 2002 when I came back from Bosnia. So, when she came to court, wanting custody...and all the facts were laid on the table, a great sound was heard from high up on that bench...

"I am awarding joint legal custody. I am also awarding primary physical custody to the father." What sweet music to my ears. And it was that staement...and the fact that she was now a woman that had lost her children, that blew away the final semblance of fog. She finally figured it out that if a judge thought what she was doing was so wrong that he had to take her kids away, then she had to be wrong (I know, it is hard for us BSs to understand how they didnt know this...but remember, the Fog is always thick).

You are fighting for your child right now. It wil ltake awhile before you will have the chance to recover your wife. So, do everything you have to do to protect the child and keep her with you. Start making sure you are documented as being the main caregiver. Document everything. You be the one to take her to the doctors. You be the one spending all of the time with her. You set up a house where you are taking care of her educational, physical and spiritual growth. Do not be lax. Have a plan on what you will do everyday! And document it.

Then the judge will look at your wife, after seeing your record...and see a woman that has selfishly run around...and you will hear the same words I heard.

You cannot control your wife. but you can protect your child. First things first!!

In His arms.

I don't know, but she was at home when I called her at about 10:30 today. Someone who may have been a teenage son answered the phone and gave it to her.

I've tried all sorts of searches for her name online and haven't found anything about a job.

Fine. File it!! What that will mean is that when you keep the child with you, and she is forced to run to the OM...that you will be shown to be doing the responsible thing. She will be shown to wanting to run around...and then wanting to drag her daughter into it too. No problem here. Just ask what the lawyer suggests if she tries to take the child and leave. And you want to make sure the child stays. Tell the lawyer the plan here...that the child will be at a friends house when this explodes and that you are not going to allow the child to leave. Ask the lawyer what the law in your state allows for that.

This whole fileing thing has me very uneasy. I am sure that you know what you are talking about, but still...

IF I File:

HER PROBABLE REACTIONS:

Try to take the baby away... (I can stop that temporarilly)

take the baby when she has the opportunity (that will have to happen eventually)

Sign whatever I give her and move the divorce forward. (That doesnt do me any good either)

Counterfile something to change whatever I filed.


Don't think I'm complaining here.. I'm just trying to figure this all out...

File ASAP.

After screwing around with my wife for 9 months, I Filed 2 weeks ago today and had her served in her office in front of everyone, incl OM.


She was ticked off and embarrassed.


Came home later crying her A$$ off. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

She has done a 180 since. Scared the **** out of her. I got her respect in one second.

She now knows I'm serious and has given our marriage the attention it deserved.

Why do you always second guess everyone here?

I told my lawyer to Stop all proceedings.

Steve Harley said my wife had to Suffer the Consequences of her actions and now was the time.

It was her big wake-up call.

She realized I was going to get 50/50 custody of the kids (state law), she pleaded with me not to take them away from her.

The purpose of you Filing is for her to see what life will be like without you and without your child (even though part time).

It now places her Fantasy with OM into REALITY. This will scare the F*** out of her.

Now that everyone knows incl the courts, the Majic of her Affair is goooooooooooooooooooooooooone.

She will now start to see all the OM flaws. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

You'll thank me bigtime.

Do it and quit thinking, you're a newbie.

Logistically, what is happening with you tomorrow, Gramn?

The reason I ask is this. You still have opportunity to get more information.

She does not know that you are onto her. She is likely planning to rendezvous with him while you are gone. It seems like a perfect time to set up with the PI.

With the PI pictures, in hand, how can she argue for custody?

Before I go on with this, what do you guys think?

No big deal that she is seeing a lawyer tomorrow. She is not planning on telling her lawyer about the A. She will try to file for alimony and child custody. You already know your answer to that. You will not bullied into leaving before then.

Mimi, I still say that over this time gone, you are right. That if Gramn can get some more intel, especially pictures...it will seal the deal.

in His arms.

Ok. So I say contact a PI ASAP!

The PI can also help you with info. about the OM's wife.

I doubt he's planning on leaving his wife since she sounds like a SAHM.

Teehee.. So he's going to support his family and your WW, too?

But you havent thought about the alternative. Here is the other scenario....

You dont file anything, dont protect your child...and she sees her attorney and files, takes the child...and you have to fight to get her back. Since she is a woman, she will have the advantage fro mthe start, added to the fact that she filed, and your child is with you wife.

Look, you already know that your wife is having sex with and plannig a life with Y-Boy. You already know that she is seeing an attorney. Guess what she is doing? She isnt trying to save your marriage!!

I know it is counterintuitive some of these things we are telling you. I felt that if I filed, if I went to Plan B, if I did any of the hard things, she would just say "Fine, thanks." And run the rest of the way to the OM. But as TA just showed you, most of the time it is the exact opposite.

If YOU call the shots, if YOU decide when this is going to happen, you can file for custody and then not let any of the rest go any further. You can drag it out for months/years. How long before your wife begins to miss your child? Do you see? But by letting her file, the same thing happens but she dictates everything. She doesnt get to see you standing up for her and her child. And she doesnt realize her mistake until it is too late.

Your marriage is nowhere near over. So relax on that. But if you dont take charge pretty soon of all of this, you are going to let crazy, fog-minded people make decisions for your wife, for your child...and for you.

Take control. Trust this stuff. She is filing. You want to save your marriage? You need to learn that there are hard things you need to do.

In His arms.

Well, I'll see how far I can get tomorrow. I want to get someone to do some pics while I'm gone. I'll need to know where she will plan on being though.

Ugh, so much to do...

This is the #1 reason I filed.





I needed to save my wife, she was in a Fog and acting irrationaly.



I filed because I loved her, even though I knew it would hurt.

Look your child in the eye and say to her "I will not quit, I will not sleep...I will protect you." Dont actually say it out loud, you might scare her!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Like I said, you are now learning the difference between simple and easy!

Well, she went to her "Girls Night Out" tonight...

I DO know that she actually mailed one girlfriend about this (through snooping) and overheard the voice of another over the phone. So, this is PROBABLY a legitimite activity, but I still don't trust her.

I found a list of the "Board of Trustees" at the Y. Heheheh...

Start typing up your letters/emails. Get them honed up so they are ready.

Continue to work your plan. Daycare, how you are going to take care of your child should she leave.

Open an account at another bank and prepare to have your direct deposit from work to go there. Any savings? Get a savings account and the day of exposure, make sure it is moved to a safe account.

Hvae a place to go if she loses it. I went with the kids to a friend house and spent the night. Then came back home the next day. I hadnt abandoned the home. We were just visiting friends for a night <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Make sure you are connected with your child. School, doctors, play friends, day care, wherever. make sure those people know you and see you there a lot more than your wife. You need to be the person they call when she is sick or they need to discuss things with you.

I want you also to understand that attorneys have many cases. Especially the good ones. The more you do for them, the less the bill will be. Annd, understand that they are human too. They have no vested stake, except your retainer, in your case. You do though!! I wore out my attorney. I wrote up much of the intel. I did most of the leg work getting documents. I came by weekly and asked him about the case and where we might have weakness. Then I headed out and got the things to patch up those holes. it is your life, your marriage, your family. You are the head of that family. You will be held responsible by God for how it turns out. Not your lawyer, not your wife. You!

You are doing good. And you have a lot going for you that many BSs do not. The amount of intel you have, the fact your wife is giving you everything thru her email, so you knwo what is going on ahead of time...many wish for that kind of control.

The Good Lord is looking out for you Gramn. Believe t and trust Him. I think your wife when this is all over may be so glad that she married you. It is going to be long and rough. And there will be times where you will want to quit, or think it is impossible.

You stay the course. No matter what happens. You will be glad you did. Like I said...look that kid in the eye tonight. And know that you are the ONLY person on this planet in her corner right now.

In His arms.

Mortarman, you are awesome, I am very glad you are here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Gramn -

Mortarman is exactly right. I forget what state you live in. But in California, it is extremely easy to get a restraining order against a husband.

I'll give you a QUICK example. My WH has been living with his OW for 2 years. Last Christmas he decided to move back in with me (and planned to keep OW). I went directly from work (while he was moving his stuff in) to court to get a restraining order.

I filled out the papers and saw the judge right away. I put down that I didn't want WH in the house because he had OW and stole things from me. When I went before the judge, he told me I had no grounds to file an RO. He said that unless my WH had threatened, or actually harmed me, nothing could be done. He had the right to move back in. Then the judge asked me if I wanted to CHANGE the paperwork I filled out.
I couldn't believe it!

So what I can see happening in your case is your wife getting angry at you for exposing her, making up a story, getting an RO to keep you out of the house and away from your child, and getting temporary support. Meanwhile you would be paying the household bills, and she would be free to "entertain" Y guy in your home.

Think about it. MM is waaaayyyyyyyy ahead of everyone here.

Gramm, please reread what believer told you. We have cases on this forum where this very thing is happening. Men have been ousted from their homes and court ordered to pay all the bills while the OP moves in and takes the husband's place.

So this is why you MUST protect yourself, your baby and your finances. She is hellbent on destroying you in order to make way for her affair. So you must watch your back. And please listen to the folks here. Do not give your W the benefit of the doubt on anything; leave nothing to chance and expect the worst.

Thanks for the additional thoughts.

I think some of this is so foreign to me because I LIKE having her take care of the baby. That is the reason she doesn't work now. All this about keeping the baby away from her seems crazy in a way>!
--------------------------------------
On another topic, I got a friend to come do a little recon while I'm out of town... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Gramn -

No one is saying keep the baby away from her. I am a mom, and would never want that to happen to another mom. What we are saying is to have a battle plan, and protect your family. You are very new in this and don't know how ugly this can get.

Get your ducks in a row, and hopefully the worst won't happen. I pray that when you expose the affair, the OM will disappear and you will get your wife back.

I know you have to travel soon. My thoughts and prayers are with you. Stay calm. You have done extremely well so far. You'll get through this.

Well, I have to figure out what to get these laywers to do today. (I don't know exactly what Wife will be telling her lawyer today either)

First, I have to PICK a lawyer.
I have an appointment with 2 of them today, but the 3rd and "most reccomended" one is also available, but maybe not today.
(This third one is the one that said I should wait)

Gramn -

Don't worry about what your wife is going to tell her lawyer. Just think about what you are going to ask your lawyer about.

Since your wife stated she would rather be single than go through this, I assume she will be trying to arrange that, but using your income. Her top priority will be maintaining her affair with Y-guy.

Gramn

One of the things I'd like to mention about seeing an attorney is to let them know that at this point....your goal is not divorce, but rather to protect your assets, your parental rights etc. since she is seeing an attorney and having an affair. So find out how you can best do that. It may mean you have to file yourself....but let them know that you would prefer reconciliation and ask about what mediation processes are available in your state....for instance....is there court mandated counseling...some states require that.

I would really like to see the two of you sit down and discuss things before EITHER of you see an attorney and before both the affair and the legal issues get out of hand. However, if that's not possible...and it's likely that your wife is going to try to take you to the cleaners...you do have to protect yourself....so get some advice.

hugs!

Gramn,

It may be ludicrously obvious but still a valid point that I hope you remember: Don't hide ANYTHING from your lawyer. Granted that not every bit of information you will give him/her will be relevant or useful but that is up to your attorney to decide. Even the best attorney is not a mind reader and will not give you his/her best if you are hiding what possibly could turn out to be important information that might boost your case. Let your WW be the one who makes this mistake, not you.

TMCM

MY PREDICTION:
From our recent discussions, here is what I THINK my wife wants:

1/2 of my paycheck

Child Support

1/2 custody of the baby

1/2 of our stuff

To sell our house and use any proceeds to get herself a condo...

1/2 of your paycheck?? For how long? 6 months? Alimony is not a lifelong entitlement. See, this is why you need to get to an attorney today. She is trying to take you to the cleaners. Go protect yourself, Gramm.

Did you decide to wait and confront her when you get back? When are getting back?

That may be what she wants right now, but she has no plan. You do. Be patient. She and Y-guy have a big surprise coming. Wait until he realizes he may lose his family AND his job. That may be enough to end the A rather suddenly.

You are doing a great job. Hang in there.

All good stuff you are getting from these folks Gramn. I only have a minute right now, as I am headed to a meeting. But the question about keeping the baby away from her is answered like this...

My wife was a SAHM until right before the affair. I liked the idea of her with the kids. She was there everyday, and did the day-to-day stuff for them until I got home from work.

But, during the affair, that wasnt my wife. If this person that looked like my wife could continue to make such poort choices, then how could I trust her to make the right choices for my kids. I couldnt.

The only way I could guarantee that my kids were kept in the same environment and being taught the same things that her and I brought them up on was to not let them leave with her. That didnt mean that she couldnt see them. She went out and got a condo...one that would not accomodate three children...which helped me keep them because I still had the house with the three bedrooms.

The kids could spend the night anytime she wanted them...except school nights. I laid down the law on that one. She could come get them after school (had to let me know first) and keep them for the evening. But they had to be back by 8:30pm so they could get ready for school. Weekends? they could spend the night, as long as she made sure they got to their scheduled events (baseball practices, swim practices, etc).

Gramn, I set all of this up without ever having a piece of paper or seeing a judge. How? Because I took the initiative, filed for custody (but never pushed it forward)...and then denied her any of the household finances or taking the kids. If she wanted to leave the family, she would have to leave the family. The family, and the family possessions, stayed for those that wanted to remain in the family.

I never denied her one time to see or talk to the kids. I set up a separate line with a distinctive ring during Plan B, so that if she wanted to call the kids, I didnt have to answer. The kids knew when they heard that sound, that it was Mom calling them.

I also made it very clear that if the OM came near our kids ONE time, that I would file immediately for supervised visitation for her!!

Now she wasnt happy with any of this, but she really had no ability to argue. She was sleeping around. She had left us. She was living an immoral life. And in the great Commonwealth of Virginia, there are laws against adultery, abandonment and the like!!

All the while I was drawing these boundaries, except when I went to Plan B...I was Plan Aing her. How? Well, several times she got really sick and had called from ehr apartment to talk to the kids. I heard she was sick, got a babysitter for my kids...and I showed up at her door (I called ahead oftime to make sure the OM wouldnt be there...that would have been a bad seen if he had of!). And I brought food, medicine, videos, etc and took care of her.

Do you see? Protecting your family and your child doesnt mean that your marriage is over or you cant Plan A your wife. Boundaries are NOT love busters!

So, do NOT let that child leave with your wife. Do not agree to any splitting of assets, dont even discuss divorce. Make it clear to her and everyone that you want to save this marriage. But make it also very clear that as long as she continues in this immoral behavior, that you will fight to save your family and protect your child.

Do not ever lose sight of this Gramn!!

In His arms.

Mortarman...

I think we've got the same idea here. It's just the exeution that has me confused. I'll talk to this lawyer today and see what he can say.
--------------------------------------------------
Here is part of my Dilemma: This job I'm interviewing for is in CHICAGO, about 6 hrs from here. I don't know whether I'll get it or not, and if I do, what will that do to this marriage/custody stuff? We have no attachments to the town we're in now, but OBVIOUSLY, wife does not currently want to leave here. (because of her "support network")
----------------------------------------------------

Oh, and I'll be back on Monday, which might be when I launch my "Omaha Beach Invasion"

My guess is that if you get offered the job AND you've exposed the A, the OM will be happy as all get out 2 see you and your W move 6 hours away.

-ol' 2long

I agree with 2Long on this.

I'm dittoing the need to make it clear to the lawyer that you want reconcilation if possible.

I had a bad experience with a big-time local lawyer that was unwilling to hear this. I did better with a small-time lawyer who was willing to do whatever I asked for a lower fee.

Ok, Wife told me about her Lawyer appointment...

This guy is telling her that we should go for a dissolution. (sp?)

It'll save us money, blah blah blah

I told her that maybe that would be OK if we could see a list of terms that we'd need ot agree upon, and if we actually agreed upon them.


-----------------------
She called me from our town's small downtown and told me about this. I heard her talking to somone about putting coins in the meter. She said it was her friend Kathryn... Yeah right...
I scouted around downtown, but didn't see them in any of the usual restaurants.

Is dissolution/divorce what you want? Or do you want to reconcile your marriage? You should tell her what YOU want, and what YOU are willing to work towards. Don't just agree with her if that's not your plan.

I DID not agree!

I want to talk to my lawyer today, and of course my "big plan" is coming up...

According to what I read in your post, you told her "that would be ok". Sounded like agreemant to me, and will absolutely sound like agreemant to someone who wants to hear it.

I'm of the opinion that you be open and honest about that part of things at least....let her know that you're NOT willing to seek dissolution/divorce. That you'd RATHER work on fixing your marriage.

Sorry if I've misunderstood your post.

I was probably vague. She knows where I stand, as far as wanting to work things out.

What I mean is, I'll TALK to her about terms, but they'd better be very fair if she expects this dissolution to work.

I can't force her to stay married....

Well, we'll see what happens when I Out their relationship...

[b]Make it fast.

You already lost one Battle by NOT serving her first.

Stay 2-3 steps ahead of her.

Gramn:

You said:


No matter what she says or does stick with this.

You also said:


She is no different than any alien WS! Notice that many of our spouses wanted to end their marriage in order to be with the OP! Notice how many of us have RECOVERED our marriages.

My FWH told me the same stuff: "Face it, it's over"; "I never loved you". BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!!

STAND UP AND CONTINUE TO FIGHT! DO NOT LISTEN TO HER! STICK TO YOUR OWN PLAN!!

[b]Never listen to ONE word of what they say.

Good or Bad it is all Fogtalk.

I would convince myself when my wife said something good that we were making progress. In reality she was feeding me CAKE to keep me off her back.

You can start to Trust her about 2 years after you reconcile. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Did you check the hotels and motels?

What? Remember what we told you? If you want a divorce, then discuss divorce. If you dont, then dont discuss it, dont mention it, dont play along. You are about your marriage. Do you know what my standard line was for my wife when she wanted to bring this stuff up? "I do marriage, not divorce. If you want to discuss divorce, talk to my attorney. If you want to discuss our marriage, I am right here ready to listen."

Gramn, you need to stop this. No more discussing divorce, or agreeing on terms. She wants you to help her end the marriage, and keep it cheap for her. DO NOT MAKE IT EASY FOR HER!! If she wants to do it, she is going to have to do the hard work herself.

So, make the decision now! If you want your marriage, then divorce is not to be mentioned again.

Might be with OM for a little tryst. Who knows? Of course, you will be able to check later on to see what she sends him. Make sure you document this stuff. Your conversations, your observations. That way, when you see the email tonight saying "I loved the time we spent together this afternoon, blah, blah, blah..." then you can show the judge what she told you, and what she actually did.

Like I said, she is moving forward. She wants you to help out. Don't!

Oh, did she say anything more? Had she filed, or done any paperwork, or was she just there on a fact finding mission?

Personally, I say not to discuss it at all with her until after D-Day. If you come out of box tonight with I want to save the marriage, she may just push things forward while you are gone. And you come back to a RO and new locks on the house. I'd just say "We will discuss this when I get back on Monday." Which you will. But not i nthe way she thinks, huh?!?!

In His arms.

Some more stuff....

I used this book on this website as my guide. It was GREAT for getting me ready for the fight and understanding all of the nuiances.

click here: Fathers Winning Child Custody

------------------------------
Here is what this book will do for you (I know...because it did for me!!):
This will inform and help you learn How To :
· prepare well in advance for the evaluation & subsequent hearings.
· know what at ammunition to use and to look for that's effective, of which you may not have thought important.
· present your case & ammunition to the evaluator to advantage yourself with maximum impact.
· adequately defend against her accusations and to take the offensive.
· use tactics against her.
· win the psychological warfare.
· leverage things against her that you thought trivial or might not know are relative.
· know what mistakes not to make.
· know what things to do early on that greatly advantage your position.
· gain the upper hand.
· turn defeats into wins.
· know what the deciding factors are & what matters more & how to use the to your advantage.
· become and appear to be the better parent & the better alternative.
· get out of spinning your wheels if you find yourself constantly defending yourself against accusations &attacks, and from losing or looking bad.
· turn the tide & put her constantly on the defensive.
· effectively crush her psychologically or make her screw up & give you even more ammunition.
· organize & promote your side in the best light.

--------------------------
Here is the Table of Contents. I used this source over and over again to make my case the best it could be:

TABLE OF CONTENTS

CHAPTER 1 INTRODUCTION

CHAPTER 2 CASE HISTORY

CHAPTER 3 FIRST THINGS TO DO

CHAPTER 4 STOP THE DEFAULT IF YOU ARE SERVED

CHAPTER 5 YOUR ATTORNEY

CHAPTER 6 DON’T TURN YOUR BACK

CHAPTER 7 DOCUMENT EVERYTHING

CHAPTER 8 CAN YOU - SHOULD YOU

CHAPTER 9 BE MOTIVATED & DEDICATED

CHAPTER 10 DEVELOP AN ASSESSMENT

CHAPTER 11 IN GENERAL

CHAPTER 12 KNOW YOUR CHILD INSIDE & OUT

CHAPTER 13 WHO’S ON WHO’S SIDE

CHAPTER 14 THE RULES

CHAPTER 15 WARFARE

CHAPTER 16 WHAT YOU SHOULD DO

CHAPTER 17 EVALUATION IS THE KEY

CHAPTER 18 WHAT TO EXPECT IN EVALUATION

CHAPTER 19 EVALUATE THE EVALUATOR

CHAPTER 20 IF YOU LOSE THE EVALUATION

CHAPTER 21 WHAT IS MEDIATION

CHAPTER 22 THE HEARING WHAT TO EXPECT

CHAPTER 23 CONCLUSION

You've got some good points...

Personally, I say not to discuss it at all with her until after D-Day. If you come out of box tonight with I want to save the marriage, she may just push things forward while you are gone. And you come back to a RO and new locks on the house. I'd just say "We will discuss this when I get back on Monday." Which you will. But not i nthe way she thinks, huh?!?!

This is what I was thinking of. you said it better. I'll see if she still wants a peaceful dissolution once I drop the bomb. And even if she does, I'm not interested. I want to fix us.

These Lawyers all demand cash or check. (Her lawyer wants $2000 for a retainer!) Moving our accounts might be a good way to screw up her efforts.

This is all so crazy to me....
P.S. I'll find a copy of that book. Whether I need it or not, I'm sure it's got many good things that I should know to protect myself.

You said:

"I WANT TO FIX US!"

Make this your mantra. Keep repeating this to her.

No you wont!! You dont want a peaceful dissolution. You dont care if she wants one. You dont want a war either. And you dont care if she wants one. NEVER ever, unless you really do want a divorce, discuss the divorce with her. My wife wanted to many times to sit down and come up with a plan. I wouldnt do it. She was moving into her apartment, so she wanted a separation agreement. I gave her one, but instead of it saying that we had irreconscilible differences and the marriage could not be saved (like most do), I had put in there that we were separating in order to work on the marriage. I also put in there she wasnt allowed to date or do anything else like that since she was married. Of course, that agreement didnt fly with her.

See what I mean? Only talk about working on marriage, defending the family. Do not entertain her thoughts on dissolution. She tells you what she wants...you say nothign but "Sorry, I dont do divorce. I do marriage."

Kind of hard for her to fight without money. It will slow things waaayyy down. Did for me. That is why filing first and controlling the tempo is important. So you can bog the whole thing down, but still maintain your rights. So, when she wants to go and have the child with her, you have filed, you have dropped your retainer...and you refuse to do any divorce or splitting of things. Then let her try to pay attorney, try to push things forward...and try to provide a home acceptable to the court for her and child. Meantime, you push thru temporary custody and the judge sees that you and child are still maintaining the family home...and your wife is still welcome back there. Unless the judge is a big man-hater, this is an open and shut case.

Download the book fro mthat website. Read it on your trip!! Great book!

Mortar - for whatever reason you lurk around here and help us poor souls out - thank you!

FAR

Mortar - for whatever reason you lurk around here and help us poor souls out - thank you!

Amen to that.

I cannot tell you how many times your advice to others has been spot on for me.

You're a real gem, MM.


slh

Thanks both of you. Three years ago, when I began my battle, there were others that came alongside me. When this is over for you, I hope you too will come back and help those that are yet to come.

I'm still in Chicago...

And I agree with those two guys... Thanks for the advice MM, and everyone else here...

I'll keep you posted.

The next step, when I get home, is to protect some of my funds and credit cards...

OK, I'm back and can't stand to wait on this "D-day" any longer...

While in Chicago, I discussed all of this with my Brother, and he helped me hone my plan some more. I also spoke to a local judge, who is a family friend. He made some useful points too.

When I left, I installed a new key logger which was apparently a failure. I think it must have conflicted with McAfee or something. She (or HE) suspected something and installed some scanning program. The program didn't stop my logger, but there was nothing suspicious typed over the 4 days, so it's likely that the computer is now suspect. (ALthough she was looking up wedding stuff <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> )

I sent someone to see if he could take pictures or anything. He thought that he had been spotted by Wife though, and took off. (Apparently he wasn't spotted...)

When I returned, she starts asking me about how we want to divide up our assets and all of that. She said she will need spousal support for a while. I tried to be vague, but am thinking... Wait until we get to the real issue here....

When I returned, there was no concrete evidence, but I found more suspicous stuff that OM had been at my house... Empty wine and pizza. The place had hastilly been cleaned. 3 more of those Vaginal inserts were gone...

I plan to do this:
2:00 Call OW. (If I can't contact her, I might delay the plan)
4:00 Return home from work early and confront W. She will have to leave for work at 4:30 and will be caught off guard.

I'm also ready for the next part... I've got a whole list of phone numbers for various people that I will call later, and I've been practicing how to discuss this with everyone, without being judgmental...

I'm really stressing out and loosing everything that I still feel for her. This is driving me crazy.

Good luck Gramn. I will be praying for you. This is what fighting for your marriage is like. It has to be done.

You are well prepared.

As many of us have stated before this is where the real work starts. Getting it out in the open so the healing can begin. Best of luck and stick to you plan. You are in control.

Well, here it goes!! From the point you reveal what you know, you will begin to get your life back. You may not think so for awhile, because things will get MUCH worse before they get better. But today you start that process. Today is D-Day. Whether or not you save your marriage, your new life begins. This is where you become the husband you were meant to be. It might be with your wife (odds are it will be). Or it might not.

But in the end, as I have found out...you actually will thank God for this trial...because the person you will become when you get out of this will be nowhere near the person you are right now. It will be rough. I wont sugarcoat it. And you will feel like giving up and giving in...just give her what she wants and let her go.

Dont you do that. You make her earn her way out. You earn your way out. Make her work to end the marriage. Make it hard for her to hold her head up when she is stuck in adultery. Because, just as you will become better thru this, so will she if she chooses to eventually follow Christ. And the woman she ends up being may be a wife that you never thought possible, and so much better than what you had.

God is in your corner. So are we. That is enough. Always remember...God plus you is a majority! Protect your child. And fight for your wife. Be the man. Dont let her make you angry nor make you give up. You are on a mission. She is lost. Every time you talk to her, tell yourself that this is a woman with serious problems. And you promised her to be there for her in poor, sickness, and worse. Well, guess what? This is worse...and she is "sick." Be true to God and be true to your word.

In the end, the blessings that come your way will be incredible! I promise!

In His arms.

Hi Gramm! I am very glad you are moving forward, but feel badly about the keylogger.

When you speak to the OMW I would mention that you were out of town this weekend and ask if he was away from home this weekend. You should also compare notes about this upcoming football weekend.

And lastly, I would not agree to any spousal support, any division of property, and whatever you do, DO NOT move out of your home. That would be a terrible mistake that could back to haunt you. Make it clear to her that you also will not let her leave with the baby.

I agree to all that. The spousal support is almost a joke to me... You cheat then you want money?!?! It will be hard to not act judgmental when that one comes up...

I'm also thinking of moving back into the bedroom. I've had more than enough of this fold out bed $#!T

Gramn - I will pray for you.

I might launch my nuke tomorrow.

But I will pray for you.

You should pray for you, too. A lot.

I've been praying already...
(And it will take a lot more)

Okay...Gramn is off exposing away right now. Today is Gramn's D-Day. Everyone break out the prayers. The battle is on.

In His arms.

I talked to the OW
She cried but said that she knew something was up.

I'm meeting her later to share evidence....

Good Work, Gramn....

We're here for you.....

You're such a blessing to the OMW and her children.....

Excellent work Gramn. You are taking the necessary steps to get your life back. I am sure telling OMW was one of the hardest things you have ever had to do. I know it was for me.

Hang in there we are all thinking of you.

YAY GRAMN - YOU DID IT!!!!!!!!!!!

Now that the nuke has been launched, batten down the hatches. Chances are the OM's wife will confront OM, and he will contact your wife, and she will be furious.

She'll give you the whole WS spiel about hurting his family, this is the last straw, she can't trust you, how could you, she is filing for divorce, blah, blah, blah.

Stay calm. Let her know you will do whatever it takes to protect your family. Hang in there. You might not feel great right now, but you will later.

Gramn - I am praying for!!!

Believer - Thanks for encouraging Gramn. You are encouraging me, also.

FAR

That is exactly what happened. OMW was supposed to meet me at 5:30 so that I could give her evidence. Instead, she confronted him and he admitted it. She made him promise not to tell my Wife, BUT, of course, he did.

So, she calls me and in a sobby voice says "Are you OK"?

She came home and we talked for a long time.
(I had the baby over at the neighbors)

She feels bad for decieving me and all that. She has backed off on her idea of Spousal support.
BUT
She still wants to be with this guy who "she is in love with".

The main point of our conversation was about who to tell. I told her "Break it off, or I'll tell all yur friends". She thought that was blackmail, and we discussed who to tell for a while. She called one girlfriend and told her, just to say "See, did that make you feel better?"

Right now, Wife & Baby are at a neigbor's house still talking.

I'm still not sure where to proceed next, but I'm very glad that I took this step...

Gramm, you did very well. Don't expose to any more people and don't make her tell anyone. DO NOT threaten to tell anyone else, ok? [all exposure should be done by you privately, anyway] You cannot afford to lose that ammunition. Hold off using this ammunition if there is some future contact, which there likely WILL BE.

Ask her RIGHT NOW to send him a letter of no contact to the OW and promise to never ever see him again. She MUST agree to quit the Y and open up her life to you, ie: cell phone passwords, etc. You must have this discussion TODAY while she on the ropes and before she catches her breath.

Here are some samples to give you an idea of what she should say to him. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=018918;p=0#000000

Gramm, she must agree to NEVER EVER see the OM again. EVER.

P.S. call the OMW and tell her that her H has already called your W since this visit and informed her they were busted. Call her now and continue to stay in touch with her.

Gramn -

You are doing just fine. I thought your wife would be more angry, and denying things. Her reaction is a good sign. Stay calm. She thinks she is in love with this guy, but it is just a fantasy.

Stick with what MM told you about wanting to protect your family. Don't let her take your child anywhere.

This stuff is just now starting to be put into motion. OM may decide to stay with his wife. Your next action will be to expose him at the Y. But there is no hurry to do anything right now.

Already done.

I can stop with the "Tell more people" stuff, but she will NOT agree to stop seeing him, or break contact. How can I save my "Ammo" if the target is still standing?

She also says that we are through and that he has nothing to do with that....

She may not have a choice about seeing him again, because he now has to make a choice between your wife and his wife.

Let the dust settle first. If she does not end contact, then you expose - in one fell swoop - to the Y, her family, your family and any KEY friends.

But...DO NOT tell her you are going to do any of this. She and OM will just pre-empt you and you will lose that ammunition. If he knows you plan on exposing him at the Y, all he has to do is tell his boss "some jealous nut thinks I am having an affair with his wife." Then you will have lost your ammunition because his boss will think you are a nut.

Don't show the enemy your arsenal, ok?

It is likely the OM will break up with your W.


They ALL say this. He has EVERYTHING to do with it, just wait and see. Just disregard it and do your best to meet her needs and avoid lovebusters. Her tune will change as the affair dies.

Does the OMW want to save her marriage? What was the OM's reaction when she confronted him?

Your ammunition is PLAN A.

"I did this because I love you and want my marriage and my family. I'm fighting for you. I will do what I need to do to show you how much I love you. I can change, etc."

All this, using your words, conveying the above message.

Now she has to do all the work to get out of the marriage.

You said:



Don't buy this for a minute or respond to it. It is standard WS Script. It is BS that he had nothing to do with this....

The ball is in her court now. Don't make this easy for her by doing anything like leaving, etc.

This must be so hard for you. You are doing great.

I would agree with getting back in touch with the OM's wife and schooling her... It would be interesting to know what he is telling his wife...

OK, I'll wait and see for a little while...

What sort of pisses me off most are the people that KNEW already!

Wife's best friend
Wife's dance teacher and friend
Wife's Aunt/Godmother of our Daughter
Another friend

NONE of those people valued our marriage?!? They all just went along with what she said?? SOmeone tells you that they are in love wiht a new guy and NO ONE says "What about that husband?" FHEKLHREKLE!!

On the other hand, if you are convinced the OM will continue to see your W, I would call the rest of your targets tomorrow and do one mass exposure. DON"T TELL YOUR W YOU PLAN ON DOING THIS, THOUGH!

It would be better to do it now, while you have them on the run, instead of giving them a chance to regroup and gather forces. Might as well take down the Affair Ship while you have it wounded, instead of giving it another day to gather strength.

Well, at least now you know who YOUR friends are.....

Oh no, they didn't want to "hurt you!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Isn't that the usual excuse of a moral coward? ugh........

Another thing...

I didnt need ANY proof! I have been gathering evidence all this time, but when it started rolling, none of that mattered...

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Should I ask about the specifics? She might tell me the, "How many times, how long has this been going on?" type of stuff, but should I ask it?

MAKE SURE TO SLEEP IN YOUR BED TONIGHT!!

MARK YOUR TERRITORY!!

The goal is to maintain your power and control.

She is out of control. Her only goal is to maintain her drug supply from Y GUY.

Sit back and watch the show to see what she does out of desperation to get to him. If you ask her questions, she will try to give answers designed to get to him... She will not give you honest answers. She will try to provoke you... There's just no telling what she will do...

My FWH was calm and quiet too on D-Day. It's a STATE OF SHOCK....also some RELIEF....but you certainly are not seeing a rational person...

If you want to know those things, then you should ask them. Remember, these are facts about YOUR LIFE to which you have a right to know. These facts have been wrongfully and cruelly withheld from you.

Did the OMW know of the affair? What did she know? Does she want to save her marriage?

Can you send her to us so we can help her?

That's right out of 90% of the busted WS's handbooks. The other 10% fall apart in remorse and beg for forgiveness.

It's panic time in fantasy land. OM will have BS all over his case, and you have the MB plan at hand and know how to handle all that transpires.

Melody is right, the next round of exposure should be to his superiors at the Y. There is a certain amount of liability, publicity wise, with one of their people engaging in an A with a client. It is, after all, a Christian Association, is it not?

You'll need some thick skin for the next week or so, as you won't believe some of the crap that may spew forth from your WW. Hold your temper, remain cool, calm and collected, keep a muzzle on any Love Buster's and weather the storm.

You have empowered yourself with this exposure. Accept a pat on the back for your efforts.

Best wishes,
SD

Thanks everyone...
There is still a lot of uncertainty...

-OMW left town for the night. She is NOT interested in Reconciling. She is a SAHM and asked that I didn't screw with his job, as she wants a big % of his wages for herself and her 3 teen sons. I said that I'd agree, if she would help me break them up. We'll see what happens.

-The Bed.. UGH! I wanted it, so in desperation, she tried leave with the baby by literally pulling the baby out of my arms when I told her to sleep elsewhere. We eventually resolved it though (thank God). She will move out of that room tomorrow. (or so she says)

- She still says she loves him and all that. I'm sick of hearing it. I hope he dumps her tomorrow.

-Still more lying. I'm sick of it! Now she says that she hasn't bought any new clothes, when I know for a fact that she recently got new shoes. I was too tired to fight over that one....

Gramn,

As we talked on the phone...I am proud of you. And you handled the whole thing extremely well. But guess what? You just left Kuwait. Baghdad is weeks, maybe months away of hard fighting. While the waiting has been horrible, getting moving can feel a whole lot better. But, as you get into this and realize that this is a marathon, not a sprint...you will grow weary. Listen to these people. Most of the vets have come out to help. Why? When you start seeing most of these people posting on one thread, it can only mean one thing...that you appear to be headed for the next MB success story.

Now, I will differ slightly with what these fine people said above, only because I did have the chance to talk to you, which gave me a better feel about how you are holding up and such.

I say that you should hold your fire for a day, maybe two. normally I would go with those above and say get it all out at once. but due to how you have reacted to this (which has been VERY well) and due to the initial reaction of your wife (which actually appeared to be concern for you...briefly...until the me, me, me of the affair dribbled back in and she said that she still wants to be with him).

With those two things, I think I see the following...

You have fired one nuke. You have a whole arsenal (and dont minimize the art of bluffing...remember, it is what they dont know that will drive them crazy!). Give that nuke a chance to sink in for them.

In the meantime, do exactly as the folks above said. Tell her you are doing this to save your marriage and family. Insist on NC with the OM. Plan A the hell out of her right now. No love busters, do you here me? Go on the web site here and memorize all of the love busters and what they are. And then dont do them. Every time you do, you will set your progress back.

As of 4pm this afternoon, you now control this situation. You set the tempo, you decide where and when you will strike. by dragging this out a little, and bluffing at times (not lying or threatening), you will keep them guessing.

If in the next couple of days, you see her become entrenched into "it's over' deal...then you finish exposing to everyone. If not, if she is negotiating with you, then you hold fire, Plan A her and work on a time table. As Dr. Harley says, Plan A cannot last but for a couple of weeks, as it is very draining on the BS. So count on maybe til the end of the summer to fight like hell and Plan A her. Drop as much love units in her bank as possible.

Protect your daughter at all costs. Doing so is NOT an LB!! In the meantime, draw your boundaries and keep hammering away at her by meeting her top threee needs as much as possible (do you know what they are...if not, print out the needs questionaire and see if she will fill it out).

See if your wife will talk to Steve Harley. Ask her to do this, to see if Steve can help her and you possibly find a way out of this.

But as I said before, if she pulls back, if she runs to him...and I'm not talking about her heading over because she is talking to him about ending things...I am talking about her brazenly choosing him over you (she hasnt had to make that choice up until now).

Now, if that aint enough, I have three more things. First, document EVERYTHING from here on out! I mean everything. Second, get back in touch with OMW and find out what she is planning. Ask if the two of you can compare notes now, and from time-to-time. If she is dumping him (and as I told you on the phone, she wont know what she is doing for at least a couple more days as the shock wears off), then your wife may think she has a future and want to keep things going. But a funny thing is that if that does happen, the OM will most likely want his freedom for awhile. Which is not what your wife is looking for, which is for him to walk right out of one commitment into the next.

The third thing is to take care of yourself. Get back in your bed, plan you sleep and make sure you do. Plan out meals and eat them (I lost 40lbs after D-Day...and I was already skinny! Looked like hell!). Force yourself to take care of yourself. You are no good to anyone if you fall apart.

On asking questions...just wait. She isnt out of the fog yet. You just turned the lights on. So, wait a little while. Eventually, she will want to answer your questions. Maybe not all of them, but she will want to come clean.

Okay, keep posting. Keep on the offensive. Make sure yoy stay one step ahead of her.

Good job soldier. Your wife will be very proud eventually. right now, you must fight the battle for her.

In His arms.

Gramm, here is the thing; it is in both your best interests to notify the Y. If they are not told about this, then they can carry on the affair at the Y unimpeded. If the Y knows, then they can't do it there anymore.

He will also be able to do this with someone else's wife unless there are consequences for his actions. To not do it, is to AIDE AND ABET the affair by helping him keep his secret.

Consider this, it is in her [OMW] best interest, too, for you to expose this at work. BECAUSE, exposure helps hasten the end of the affair. If the affair ends, the chances of both your marriages surviving increases dramatically.

If the affair does not end - because it was not exposed - then both marriages are doomed for divorce anyway. If she is divorced, she will not receive spousal support for long anyway.

If she stays married, however, her H would get another job and support her indefinitely. Her financial security is more likely to go in the toilet if she divorces. And your marriage is more likely to go in the toilet if it is not exposed at this level.

So, it does neither of you any good realistically, to help the OM hide his sleazy affair. I would withdraw your agreement on this point, Gramm, it is a bad agreement that is detrimental to you both.

Even if it actually DID hurt her to expose at work, [which it doesn't] you can't sacrifice such a valuable tool that could conceivably effectively end the affair. You are in a fight for your marriage, and just because she thinks she doesn't want to save hers, does not mean you can agree to something that would hinder your efforts. That is simply too much to ask, Gramm.

And can you please talk to her about Marriage Builders? We need her working on her marriage. I realize she is angry and hurt, but she needs to know that most marriages DO survive adultery and if she plays her cards right, we might be able to help her save her marriage. If she runs off and leaves, she just makes it easier for OM to contact your W. I fear her erratic actions are going to throw the OM into the arms of your W.

Gramn -

YIKES! I forgot one out of the WS handbook - "I want a divorce, but it has nothing to do with OP". I'll write that down for future reference. Many, many folks here have heard the same thing.

You have done extremely well today. I hope you will get some sleep. Like MM said, give the first nuke time to sink in.

OM's wife is very likely to change her mind. She is still in shock. On D-day, I threw my WH out, followed by his clothes.

One thing on your side is that OM has 3 teens - that will be a chunk of change for child support. And then he will be looking at starting over with a woman with a young baby. I think he will spend most of his time trying to get his wife back.

So relax, and give yourself credit. Sleep well my friend - I imagine that you will sleep much better than OM and your wife do. Their nightmares are just beginning.

Thanks guys...

-I just talked to my brother who was shocked and dissapointed that I didn't contact more people yet. I know I don't have to do it all today, but in a way I think he's right. My wife is ashamed and doesn't want to be the "town slut" and I went along with her. She did tearfully call one person to inform right in frnt of me, but I don't think one if her friends will make much difference. I'll have to give more thought into this exposing phase. How many people? Which ones? what do I say to wife? I guess I just have to stop caring what she thinks of this...

- I've tried the EN questionaire before, back before all of this when we were still on pretty good terms. She didn't want to fill it out. She is not very forthcoming with that info.

-OMW, at least so far, is not intersted in fixing her marriage. So, she is not as helpful as I'd like. She also ruined my discovery plan, so she is pretty annoying at this point... I only promised to NOT tell the bosses IF she helped me break them up. If that doesn't happen, and SOON, then our deal is void. I'll give her a few days and see what transpires. We'll get together soon and compare notes.

Gramn -

Don't second guess yourself. You have done much, much better than the average MB'er. You don't have to do it all in one day. You don't even have to do things perfectly. But you have started on the right path.

I've seen a lot of surprises here. People don't always do what they say they are going to do. So relax, and watch what the others' do. Give yourself a big pat on the back. You are doing just fine.

Gramn - congratulations on the exposure. You are breaking the ice for me - sorry that you are the one out in front - but know that you are ALREADY helping people on this site.

God's speed, brother.

Found

It was really mentally hard to get to this point, but I suggest you get your plan together and do the same as soon as possible. It is a MASSIVE load off of my mind... Go for it!
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Today, I would like to send a little note to OM.
Any specific advice on what it should say?

I'm thinking of something like this:

Dear Y Guy,
Obviously, I know about your Affair with my wife. My family may have problems, but I will fight for them. Please break off ALL CONTACT with her and any my family.

-Gramn

W a recent pic of my family attached at my Daughter's birthday party.
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That is a first draft. How can I make it better?

Gramn,

Day two...

The note sounds fine. No threats. Just a simple message, as you stated it.

On the OMW, as we talked about right after you talked to her, I was pretty sure she was going to call OM. They all do. A hit that hard just cant wait for some people.

That being said, I think she may come around in a day or so and you will then know which direction she is initially going to head. I would call her today and ask her how she is, point her to this web site, as well as Dr. Harley's book Surviving an Affair. Tell her what you are about, namely having the affair end and recovering your marriage. Remind her that the two of you will be able to work well together in order to make sure they do separate.

Now, has there been any other interaction with your wife? Did you sleep in your bed last night? What is she saying to you??

Hi Gramn:

I think I can speak from being in the same position as the OMW. I relied on my H for financial support at the time of his A. In disagreement with Mel on this one, I think agreeing not to go to the Y is a good bargaining point with her. She can rely on him for spousal support, divorce or not. In my separation agreement, my FWH was legally bound to pay me spousal support for the rest of my life because I had relied on him monetarily for so long... Also, their children depend on him for the salary he receives from the Y since she makes no money.. He will be desperate to keep that job... She will be desperate for him to keep it.

I agree that she may come around. She is likely in shock since this is such a major trauma for her. She can hardly believe that her H has done this to her. Wanting to abandon her and her children? Try to talk to her about MB as the others have said.

Mimi, I was not aware that a spouse could obtain spousal support for life, that is a new one on me. My issue is that he is not in a position to have to bargain at all on this point and I am concerned that it impairs his position.

Exposing him at the Y closes one more avenue from which they can carry on the affair. It would put great pressure on the affair to end by removing the Y as a refuge for the infidels. They couldn't very well continue to meet at the Y if everyone knew about it. Exposure would close that loop effectively.

You guys:

This is where I am going with this.

From a strategic point of view, the FINANCIAL REALITY of this MAY do more to breakup the A at this point than FURTHER EXPOSURE.

The key is for Gramn to make it clear that he will not provide spousal support to his WW since she has been involved in an A. I'm not sure if he can really pull this off legally in his state though. At least, he can make it clear that he will seek custody of his child. Therefore, she will not receive child support. Y Guy will have to support his wife and children on his salary. So what will they live on? LOVE???? That's what they may be thinking.

REALITY HAS TO HIT FOR THEM TODAY! THE FINANCIAL REALITY OF THIS IS A BIGGY!!!!

OK, I have no problem exposing him to the Y, but I'll see what happens with his wife first. We'll meet again soon (we plan on meeting tonight) I'll tell her about this site and stuff, and stress that getting them broken up is the most important thing. I will gladly tell the Y, but I'll save that "card" for now.

If we divorce, here is what will happen:
- This is a "no fault" state so we split our assets down the middle
- Evidence of things like Affairs can effect spousal support. So hypothetically, they might have ordered me to pay $500 per month to her. After I show them my evidence, they might order me to pay her $100 per month.
- We both say that we'd want a fair custody arrangement, but I don't trust her. If I ever piss her off, like when I told her that I wanted the bed last night, she is quick to flip out and say "I am going to get FULL CUSTODY!" I think it will be hard to convince the court to give me full custody, as they usually give it to the Mom...

It will be hard for an adulterous wife to get full custody. Did you read the e-book for divorcing fathers that Mortarman told you about?

What was the OM's reaction when the OMW confronted him? Did he vow to end the affair? Or he is acting like your wife and vowing to continue the affair?

I don't know. I think that maybe OMW did not ask him that question. All I know is that he lied at first then admitted that this affair was true.

WOW, GRAMN:

You sound great! You are in WARRIOR mode.

About the bed, JUST DO IT! Get in your bed. Let her deal with it. She can sleep there with you or not. You and WW are still married. That's the point here....

I agree with MEL about the child custody. Don't assume that it will be awarded to her given her adultery. In my state, adultery is legally considered to be a crime, BTW.

I don't think she would get full custody, even if she wanted it. I just don't want to get to that point...

Gramm, she is blowing smoke about the "full custody" thing. She is talking smack to manipulate you. She is not in a position to negotiate anything, so don't fall for it!

Mimi is right, go get in your bed and let her deal with it! You should not be ejected from your own damn bed so WW can carry out the pretense with her boyfriend that she is "seperated." Don't indulge her affair schemes anymore.