MM, here is the issue that I had with him taking hte DD on unscheduled days:

1. It opens to door to CONSTANT communication to accommodate an everchanging schedule - she will take advantage of this and HAS - he will remain at her beck and call, taking every call in anticipation of a "schedule change," so he can come running. I fear he will NEVER go dark at this rate.

2. she is using him as a babysitter so she can go get laid so he is essentially enabling her affair by helping her be available for dates

While I do see your point, my concern is getting him TRULY in Plan B before I burst a blood vessel!! And I am so glad to see you! I wanted to tell him this morning: "JUST WAIT TIL MORTARMAN GETS HERE!"

STRAIGHTEN HIM OUT, PLEASE!!

Give me your thoughts on the above. Good to see ya!!

I said it before and I will say it again, I never had to do Plan B and I feel lucky for it not going that far. I accept Melody's and MM's knowledge as experienced people of Plan B. I have not said much about Plan B since I would only be saying what I have read and not experienced. Please people, keep up your good work. Gramm and many others are listening and hanging on to every word that is stated.

These love affairs are not built with any real foundation, so hang in there Gramm. When they begin to crumble, they can fall quick. Be ready to pick up the pieces when the time is right.

Keep working stratigically and pray for strength to cope and do the right things.

TooSoon

Well, tonight WW has our daughter. Tomorrow morning, I would normally show up and get the car seat from her & greet our daughter.

SO, tonight, when WW called so that DD could say goodnight to me, I said "Hang on, I might not be there when you drop DD off tomorrow or other times, and if so, leave the car seat."

SO, tomorrow I'll show up to see DD after WW has already left, and that should close one more communications related gap.

True, I had to talk to her to set this up, and it's not as good as getting another carseat right away, but it is one more step forward...

Melody,

You are the Grand Diva of exposure and Plan B on here. And everything you have said is true. But as a male, there are some inherent biases against us in court. there are things we have to do in order to get on equal footing with the mom when it comes to custody. So, while a COMPLETELY dark Plan B is out of the question here, the key is how to stay dark most of the time, and then how to handle the times he has to interact with her in order to facilitate getting his daughter. One of the biggest draws back to him for his wife is his daughter. For Gramn to get custody, as was proven in my case, is a huge deal when trying to save a marriage.


I agree!! You have been harping on this and you should be. Here is the problem for Hramn, as I see it. I do think he now wants to go dark. You can tell that his attitude is changing (Plan B is working, at least to an extent). It is showing him that he doesnt have to get caught up i nthe drama. And he likes that. So I believe he wants to go dark. Logistically, though, Gramn has to interact with her for the sake of her daughter. In my case, my wife would come to the teacher conferences, or the baseball games, or whatever. No way to avoid her being there...or me being there. This is why Gramn needs guidelines on what he is allowed to say and when he is allowed to say it. I am going to use a case-in-point on his recent post to show what I mean. I will do that in a few minutes.


Okay. And while it may be an enabler in the fact that it makes it easier for her to bang the ex-Y-Guy, in Plan B it doesnt matter whether he is enabling her or not. Plan A was about separating them. Plan B is about separating Gramn from them and about giving her exactly what she thinks she wants (the OM) so that she will hopefully see what she is gaining (not much) and losing (everything). Added to this...judges do not look highly on mothers who put their sexual needs above their children. My wife is a perfect example. One of the biggest reasons I got custody was that she shipped the kids off to her mother's house 1700 miles away while I was deployed so that she could play house with the OM. And then, 4 months after my return from deployment, she left me and the kids so she could set up an apartment in order to bang the Troll. That was a HUGE thing in my case, and Gramn needs things like this in order to combat the inherent mother-bias that courts usually have. So, there is a trade-off. In Plan A, there is no way he should enable her like this. But in Plan B, he is trying to get custody of his daughter and to keep her away from that harmful environment. Every day that his daughter is with him as a good day. Both for his daughter, and for his case.


Okay, no bursting blood vessels here. But the point is well taken. Gramn is going to have to find a way to do this. Look to my next post in a few minutes to see what I think might work (as it did work in my case).

In His arms.

Okay gramn...Melody and others have been ripping on you pretty good. And some of it is justified. but I can hear in your posts how hard you are working, and how much you want to do a good Plan B. So, let me use this latest interaction to show you where you can do better. And by using this one interaction, maybe you can come up with a Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) that will guide you thru almost every situation.

First, she calls so daughter can talk to you. Now, I know there are other ways to do this Gramn. I suggested you get a pre-paid cellphone. Then, email your wife the number and have your wife dial that number when daughter is to talk to you. In the email, state that you will answer and talk only if daughter is on the line...not your wife. You have already stated in the PBL how wife is to send messages to you. So the call on that line should always be your daughter calling you.

Or you can send the phone with your daughter. And email your WW and tell her that you have taught daughter how to push the pre-loaded number on the phone that will dial you and that she can do so on her own. Thus, you program your home number or cell number into that pre-paid phone and then teach daughter which number to push that will call you. You can also tell wife that this pre-paid phone will be how she calls your daughter and that only your daughter will answer.

You see, I came up with a solution that will work. Now, your wife may say that daughter wont be able to use the cell phone. Okay. And if she does, you forward that email to your attorney. Remember, judges are looking for the parent that will best facilitate the relationship of the child with the other parent. If she is blocking her daughter from calling her dad, that will not be looked on very highly.

You went on above about how you "had to" talk to her about the car seat. Well, no you did not! You could have emailed her and stated what was going to happen. It did not require a discussion or negotiations. Just a simple email stating "WW, I will not be meeting you at daycare in the morning to trade off car seat. Please leave the seat at the daycare and I will get it when I pick up our daughter." Done. That's it. No discussion. No having to talk to her.

Like I said above, there are unavoidable times where you two will be i nthe same place with your daughter. Okay, how do you handle those?

Well, I will give you an example. At a teachers conference my wife showed up for, we both sat ouside the room until it was our turn to go in to talk to the teacher. My wife tried to engage me in conversation about the kids on several occasions while waiting, trying to get me out of my Plan B. Know what I did. I first ignored her. Then, just to shut it down...I pulled out my cell, called someone and talked for awhile thus ending all possibilities of her talking to me. After the conference was over, she tried to talk to me as we exited the building and went to our cars. Stuff like "can you have the kids call me when you get home?" Such a little question, right? Wrong!! I didnt answer at all. Just kept walking to my car, got in and left. You see, I didnt need to speak to her there. I didnt need to have kids call her. She wanted to break my Plan B. I had already put in a second line with a distinctive ring so that she could call them anytime. She knew that when she made this request. So, that night, I just went about my business...and she called a couple hours later on the kids' line to talk to them.

You see? I didnt talk to her. I didnt give her one thing. I didnt have the kids call. She had the ability to contact them. I did not feed her attempt to blow up my Plan B.

Gramn, this was just one small example here. but you are going to have to be tough! Do NOT talk to her. There is no reason to do so. At one baseball game, my wife had asked one of my sons to do something. I was sitting nearby (not next to her...never do that) and saw that my son was not obeying her and had not done what she asked. I called him over and asked "Ddint your mother just tell you to do something? You had better get moving on what she just asked you." You see, I enforced my role as father, made my son show his mother respect...and I NEVER interacted with her.

Gramn, this is simple...not easy. Set up some very simple rules that you must live by. Then, when she tries to weasel around them, you can just ignore her attempts because you have a plan. And with that plan, you will feel more empowered and less stressed, even though she might be around. After a little while of this, I actually began to feel good about the fact that I was able to dictate the terms of how we would interact. As I have said before, Plan B is about the WS finally getting all of the power over the relationship.

Gramn, you are in control now. You have a plan, plus support. All she has is fog. She will make mistakes that will cost her dearly. Let her make them. Dont cushion her blow by talking or helping out. Enforce your boundaries.

In His arms.

Thanks Mortarman, you're a peach. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[/bloodpressure]

MM & Melody:

MM, I am not to familiar with your case, but it sounds like you got custody, is that correct? Did your wife come back or is she still with OM?

I am asking this to better understand Plan B. Does Plan B save marriages or simply preserve the love the BS has for a WS so when the WS breaks the relationship with their lover or vice-versa, the BS will still have enough love within themselves to somehow accept their WS back.

The latter is my understanding of a BS doing a Plan B. I interpreted plan B as the BS simply letting the lovers have their way and time with each other until the affair runs its six months or so course of time. When reality sets in for the lovers and the fog begins to lift, the BS nutures the then responsive WS back to the BS and the family.

Plan B is a survival tool for the BS, yet still preserves a "tad" bit of love for the WS left in their love bank. It is the out of site, out of mind concept. The BS simply can't see the lovers day to day or it kills the feelings inside. I thought Dr. Harley states without Plan B, the BS will fall completely out of love and will then not allow the BS to return to the family. I simply don't recall reading that Plan B is an affair busting tool, just a love preserving tool for a BS. I do believe it is a form of punishment and retaliation tool as well. I am not criticizing or questioning Plan B, just the interpretation of Plan B. I am not seeing or hearing the plan for Gramm being addressed in Dr. Harley's readings.

Exposure busts the affair and Plan B preserves the remaining love the BS has for the WS. Please Melody and Gramm, both respond so I can hear your cases and how Plan B worked for you two.

TooSoon

TooSoon, I never did Plan B, but you are right that its short term purpose is to protect the remaining love the BS has for the WS, for the long term goal of saving the marriage.

The premise is based on the belief that the OP usually meets only 1-2 needs of the WS, while the BS meets most of the others. When the BS pulls out, the WS is forced to realize this about the OP, and come to the conclusion that the affair is unworkable. This realization often pulls the WS off the fence, back to the WS. So, in an indirect way, the goal of Plan B is to bust up the affair, bringing the WS back into the marriage.

In most cases, Plan B is necessary to do this.

This is the plan that Gramm is supposed to be on, so you can see why I am so frustrated with him. His incessant unneccessary contact is defeating the purpose by preventing him from withdrawal, while still meeting her needs. Meeting her needs in any way prevents her from seeing that OM cannot possibly meet her needs as can Gramm.

While it may be perceived as "punishment" or "retaliation" by the some, it's really not. The Plan B letter is designed to minimize that perception and ensure the WS understands that it's not.

Hope that makes sense.

Thanks people.

I look at Plan B as a way to get my "sanity" back by not being part of WW's life and not doing whatever she wants. We'll see how I do at it...

This morning I showed up at the Daycare after WW had already dropped off the carseat for me and left. So, I got the car seat, and didn't have to see or talk to her. I'll try to keep that pattern going. Now to close the rest of the gaps...

Came back...two weeks after losing custody.


Both.


aaaahhhh, you are right. Plan A is about busting up the affair. Plan B is about preserving the BS's love forthe WS. But there is an added benefit of plan B in the affair-busting area. You see, the OP never has met all of the WS's needs. The BS is still fulfilling some of them. Plan B takes all of them away and forces the OP to meet them. And almost always, that is NOT possible. So, there is pain and stife in the relationship, as the WS demands the OP meet all of the needs that are now not being met. And the OP is seeing this side of the WS that they definitely do not like. They didnt want this needy thing. Now all they have is a mess.

So, the primary reason for Plan B is to protect the BS. But it does have the secondary effect of forcing the infidels to "live in their mess." And that usually means the relationship begins to fail. So it is an affair-busting tool also.

In His arms.

Oopps...Melody already posted an excellent response. Thus, mine was unnecessary.

In His arms.

Now Gramn, this is what we are talking about. Good job. Dont you feel a little better this morning since you didnt have to see her? And this will get better everyday as you do this.

Remember what we have warned you, though. At first, she will test your boundaries. If she cant get thru, then she will pull back for a short period. "Oh well, at least now I can enjoy the OM. I guess Gramn did me a favor." Then the process will start (usually about a week into NC with the BS). She will need some need met. She will either go to OM or realize he cant or wont meet it. She will then become frustrated. But her nager will keep her from calling...for awhile. But those frustrations will begin to build.

In the next two weeks, she will be increasingly unhappy and not know why. I mean, she will be thinking "I have everythign I thought I wanted...why am I so miserable?" And this will only frustrate her even more!

Eventually, after about 3-6 weeks of this, the typical WS begins to break down. This is usually the first window that a WS will have back to their old life. Some jump thru and run home. Others try to break the Plan B. Others just resign themselves to "never being happy." For those that dont run home immediately, things begin to get worse. now they are thinking "What is my BS doing? Has he found someone else? All of the intel I have is that he appears happy and content? How can that be?" They will wonder why they have left and are unhappy...but the BS is now alone and appears to be happy. Nothing makes sense to them.

At this point, there are no guarantees Gramn. As we have said before, your wife may never come home. But the odds say that you have a better chance of winning the lottery than she has of being divorced and remarried to the OM.

So, understand all of this. Plan for it. Stay as dark as possible. Get your custody case together (it will be a huge asset towards regaining your marriage if you can get custody).

And as always, pray and trust the Lord.

In His arms.

Motarman,

I don't mean to highjack Gramms thread but I do have a question. I was wondering if this same thing applies to a WH? I am now in planb myself yes I broke it a couple of times but I am now in strict planb. He is living with the OW since July except for a couple of short times home..

Everytime before planb and yes even the 2 times I broke it it was because I feel for the lies but it always amounts to him wanting SF w ith me... This has been gpoing on ince he left home... Many times. He now has cut back on the money ad i am trying to get something done legally but without money thats hard. He is angry all the time and takes it out on everyone... Cut off all family, friends and children.

I would ask you to read my story but its so long. If you could just give me some advice I would appreciate it. I have read Mimi's planb and you helped her so much. She says my WH is following the same script her WH did. But of course my WH is back as an OTR driver with only being with OW on weekends.

Anyhow sorry Gramm for highjacking your thread. I just wanted some input from the Planb King if possible...

Gramm, you did great today.... I think you are on the right track ...

Hurting

No problem Hurtinginokla. Good luck!

I'm dong fine today, so far, but now I've got another problem!

Apparently WW didn't pay some bill that she said she had paid! I emailed her about it and will await her response. Maybe it is just a simple error with the company that WW can fix.

She has never lied to me before about things like this, but I also don't want to let something like this be used as an excuse to get me dragged into a discussion

I tried to get all of this settled before Plan B, but it's hard to get it all figured out ahead of time.

Gramm

Can't you get the bill changed into her name? All bills that are not your responsibility to pay should be changed to her name. That way she is responible for payment and she can't use this bill or any other bill non payment as an excuse for contact!

Just another thing you could close up

For the most part, that is already the case. We have our own bills all seperated and figured out. BUT this is a one time thing that has slipped by.

OK, I got that bill thing worked out with just 2 emails. Not bad.
-------
NOW, she emails me this:
---------------------------------------------------
The Mothers of Young Children meeting is tomorrow. Would you want to watch DD or do you want me to get a sitter or take her with me, they always have a sitter there for whoever brings their kids.

WW
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OK, Plan B experts, how would you respond to a message like this? Ignore it? Watch DD?

Well, I'm no expert, but this seems like a "no brainer" to me. DON"T REPLY--she has already indicated that she has 2 other optioins that don't involve you (or you responding): sitter or take along, with sitter available.

FE

I agree Gramn, don't respond. She has daycare available at the meeting. Let her experience a little of the "single mom" role.

This morning I got DD to daycare and left the carseat before WW showed up.
That was good, but that is about all that was good.

Things have been crappy. I have not done a good job at no contact. She is bitching at me for not talking to her about every little thing. But really, it's my fault for taking her calls or emails at all.

She is threatening legal action if I don't talk to her and I basically said "you can try that if you want to"

The whole thing just has me feeling like crap.