Hi Gramn,

I have been reading your posts now since the beginning and I think you are doing a great job. I don't mean to butt into your thread, but seeing all the great advice you have gotten has given me the courage to post my own and I would appreciate your advice (although you will be coming from the other side kind of) and anyone else's on this thread.

I have posted on divorcing/divorced with the topic "Really Confused" if anyone is interested in helping.

Again, I'm sorry for jumping into your post and I wish you the best of luck in getting your family back.

Gramm, "trust" does not involve helping your w act like an alley cat in heat with a married man. You are not doing it for revenge, but in order to bust her affair. What you are doing by exposing her continually is virtuous and noble. Busting up the affair is your obligation as a FATHER and a HUSBAND.

So, tell your W that she is right, you cannot be trusted to help her hide her sleazy affair because you are a GOOD MAN who puts his family and marriage first. Don't sit there like a lump on a log when she says this kind of nonsense to you.

Gramm,

Do you want a divorce..to divorce???

If down in your heart of hearts, you do not want to do this..DO NOT GO TO THE MEDIATION!!

OK, ......NOW give me reasons why you have to go.

Mel is so RIIIGHT OOOONNNnnn!!

(you) ""But to her, things like exposing a meeting with OM to OMW are me betraying her trust or seeking revenge""

(MEL)""Gramm, "trust" does not involve helping your w act like an alley cat in heat with a married man. You are not doing it for revenge, but in order to bust her affair.""

Gramm, there is such huge fogglebabble spewing from your wife's mouth! Just stand back, take a deep breath, and review what a pickle you have gotten yourself into.

You are caught up in her game playing with the OM and OMW and you and her....and it is all too much DRAMA!! You are privy to your W's ups and downs with the OM. You are becoming her confidant (sp?) but becoming less of a Husband.

You must stop reacting and start pro-acting. I think it's your move!!

k

I am sorry to tell you Gramm but once your wife accepts the fact that her "love of her life" is gone, she will go into serious withdrawal for two to three months. She may even try and contact him to see if she can bring him back and that will set her back further. As long as you are kind, decent, and tolerable during this time period and as she begins disconnecting with her lover, she will slowly begin reconnecting with you. You will win by default only since her heart will remain with the OM for a period of time.

You won't feel the connection but you will see and hear things in a little different tone. You will take every word she says as literal words and you will look for her to give you encouragement. She will not only continue to hurt you during this time, but she will blame you for her actions. On occation, You will sense a tad bit of normalcy but for months and months, you will never feel comfortable with your marriage because of the pain she feels losing her Lover.

You likely have 4 to 6 months before she will express true remorse for her actions and for hurting you. She may say the words sooner, but you won't feel the sincerity. You have to help her come back to you on her terms so to speak. Don't look for a miracle or a reborn light going off in her head. It takes months and months for them to fall in love and it takes as long or so to fall out of love. The key is for you to be there and to be the person to replace her lover.

In time, you will say she is truely sorry and your life will resume some normalcy. I think I am 18 months past DD and it has been a long hard and painful battle back. I am glad I fought the fight and I now try my best to this day to be a much better husband, domestic wise and in other ways. Our marriage is better now than ever before but there is a better way to fix a weak marriage than having an affair.

There is nothing fair about being a BS and remember there are no winners from affairs, only survivors.

TooSoon

Thanks anthe and everyone for the replies.

Toosoontobecomfortable-what you are saying is right on. WW has been going through this withdrawl for w few weeks now.

krusht-I DON'T want to get divorced, but this is a court mandiated mediation session. If she pushes this divorce through, I have to be there to protect my daughter, finances, etc...

Melody-I have been saying things like "You can trust me to be here for you, but you can't trust me to support you having any contact with OM, so if you don't want to tell me about your dealings with him, I'll have to live with that".

Apparently while at some store she had some conversation with OM. I found her sitting in an isle crying aobut loosing him. As usual, I did what little I could to help. but I was the one there, as usual.

Today we actually talked about the possibility of getting back together. Not that she said we WOULD, but we discussed it. Maybe that is progress.

Her Aunt and Grandma are staying with her. I didn't know where they'd stand with all of this. Surprisingly, they seem to sort of be on my side... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

She was also telling me that EVERYONE she knows is telling her to dump OM and move on. They are not necessarilly telling her to go back to me, but they are telling her to ditch him.

Good evening Gramn,

As the macabe of everyday life sets in. As she deals with having a job, bills to pay, responsibilities, litigation and a life on her own. As she comes to realize she really didn't have it that bad with you. As the fog clears. She is ever so slowly coming back to you. I believe I am right, this time.

Do not feel settled for. The beast is not done testing your ability to endure. However, your marriage surviving is as God intended. I pray that you too can eventually experience a marriage that far exceeds anything you knew before. She will eventually and for a lifetime never doubt your love for her. You will triumph over the truest test of your marriage. That is my hope for you.

Godspeed Gramn, our thoughts and prayers are with you,

Mr. Wondering

Thanks Wondering.

This morning, when I dropped off our daughter at the apartment, WW's aunt told me that she thinks she made progress last nght and now admitts that her relationship with OM will never work out.

I don't know how true this is, but maybe it's progress.
She was still pretty jerky to me. I took her car and got an oil change this morning. You'd think that would warrant a thank you or something? Nope...

Gramn,

I hear a little impatience in your posts. You do see, as everyone around your wife sees...that the affair has ended. Sure, contact remains, so it is technically still going on. But this thing is barely on life support and there really is no way to revivie it. This is all good.

But I see in every post that you refer to her reaction to you...as if she will just switch off Nolonger-Y-Guy and switch on Gramn. It doesnt work that way, as was stated above. She will SLOWLY move your way. The key word here is SLOWLY!

Is it fair? No. Do you deserve better? Sure. But understand this...the REALITY of your marriage is that your wife had an affair, wanted to end the marriage. That is all the bad stuff.

The good stuff in this reality is that the affair is ending, that she is still talking to you and allowing you to be there for her and do things for her. While the affair ending was all big moves, the marriage being rebuilt will all be small moves. Baby steps. Two steps forward, one step back.

Example. You look at her crying in the aisle over the loss of the OM as a bad thing. Sure it hurts that she is pining over some other guy. But you are going to have to turn that part of this off for awhile. You need to look at the good part of that event, and try to ignore the bad part. And what is the good part of her crying in the aisle of a store over the loss of I-Cant-Believe-I'm-Nolonger-Y-Guy?

Well, first off, your marriage had NO CHANCE while the affair was still hot. NONE! So, for you and your family, this was the first step. So the fact that she is crying over the loss of Y-Guy-Loses-His-Job-Because-He-Cant-Stop-Schlumping-The-Customers is GREAT because it means the affair is over!!!

But the second reason that this event was good is that you were there to witness it. Huh? I can see that blank look on your face now. Has Mortarman lost his mind?!?! "When I witness that, it hurts. How is that good?" Simple, Gramn. By you witnessing it, it means you were there with her. As long as you are there with her, then another day goes forward where you can be beside her and meet ENs.

She is opening up to you...SLOWLY. She allowed you to talk about POSSIBLE reconciliation. Two weeks ago, that would have NEVER happened.

Gramn, as we have said all along, your deal here is textbook. Your wife is walking the line perfectly. Doesnt mean it will all turn out right. But so far, she has not deviated from the WS Handbook once.

So, what to do about this mediation thing? Well, since it is mandated, you need to go in there prepared. Make sure you have all of your ducks in a row, prepared to defend yourself and your family. Do not give in where it comes to your daughter. I know you will want to be nice, in hopes that she will see that and just call the whole thing off.

Gramn, a little thing I learned during all of my problems...being nice and giving in NEVER works with a WS. They already dont respect a BS...that is one of the reasons they betrayed us. Then we come along giving in...and even more respect is lost.

The balance here is to meet ENs without being spineless. It is like the difference between taking out a billboard about the affair and just exposing to the people who need to know. Both of these ways, your wife will say that you blabbed to everyone and you were out for revenge. If you did the billboard thing, she would probably be right. But the exposing (which you did) was not what she said. It was loving firmness, doing what was right for your family and for her.

So, in mediation, what she REALLY wants deep down and cant admit it to anyone (including herself!) is for you to stand up and take charge. Not be contentious. But be firm. Keep saying "I do not want the divorce, I want to save my family and marriage." Say that over and over again in the mediation session. But when it comes to the practicalities of dividing up stuff, or what happens to your daughter, then you stand firm.

Example. They come back and say "Well, if you do love me and want to make this work, then you will have to show me by agreeing to daughter being with me on my terms." Most BSs will give in and say "okay." And they just lost their daughter...and mroe respect from their spouse.

The right way? "I do love you, and do want to make this work. And I will do everythign I can to protect my family and to makre our marriage what it should be. But I cannot agree to the terms that you are asking for because they do not meet those goals of reconciliation. I want this marriage to work and our family to be together and happy. We can do that. But I will not agree to it being split up. Mrs. Gramn, you are free to do as you please. I cannot stop you. But I am going to concentrate on keeping this family together."

Or something like that.

Gramn, you are doing great. Please do not concentrate on her babble, or on the fact that she isnt back in your arms yet. She is out of his arms...and that's a start.

Let's take this one step at a time.

In His arms.

Gramm, let me echo the wise one.... As I read your last post I thought of a saying I see almost every day "Expectations are nothing more than premeditated resentments".

I can totally relate to your feelings right now. You've chowed down the happy meal and the freaking toy you expected ain't in the bag.

But dude, this is the last leg of the race here. Reach down, grab your second wind, and let's finish strong. Right now you may not be able to snap your wife out of it and save your marriage but you sure can do things that will end it for good. And really, ((Gramn)), things are working, she is progressing. And man, you've been so patient and so understanding and frankly so willing to do the work, so now please don't be discouraged rather stay on course and remain teachable....

Patience is easier in theory than in practice. But I'm trying.

I am concerned that she will keep puching through this divorce stuff further straining our relationship. Who is going to want to recconcile to someone who is fighting them? I might try and see if she is willing to put the proceedings on "hold". There is a term for that, but it escapes me...


Those cracked me up. Thanks for that!

Tonight I went out to dinner with DD, WW and the 2 relatives.
After dinner, WW apparenlty talked to OM on the phone in the parking lot, and ended up crying again.

Just now she called me, and we talked some more. Even though she says she still loves OM, she says that she wants to go to counciling with me?!! She is going to try and call the councilor right now!!

"So, in mediation, what she REALLY wants deep down and cant admit it to anyone (including herself!) is for you to stand up and take charge. Not be contentious. But be firm. Keep saying "I do not want the divorce, I want to save my family and marriage."

Gramm - Say this to yourself over and over. MM is exactly right. Women want men who will take charge and stand for their family.

My prayers are with you and your family.

Gramn, my H didn't want to fight for me until I said I didn't want the D. I had to be strong and so do you. Especially for your DD.

Gramm:

I say she wants the OM in her present state of mind. She will end up with you but against her wishes today. In time, she will come to believe the whole affair was a huge mistake but you are months away from that.

It is your role to keep taking the heat and the abuse until the devil leaves them. The fight, the pain, and the battle will be worth it in the end.

TooSoon

Gramn...this is awesome news!! She is taking the next step...right along the path of the WS handbook.

Just think two or three weeks ago. Would she be asking to go to the counselor? Nope.

She is very confused right now. Reality and fog have hit straight on and she cant make heads or tails out of any of it. Everything she had spun up as "truth" in the fog is now crumbling and turned into lies. Sh even said that several times to the OM, didnt she? How she gave up everything, and he let her down?

She is confused, but she knows enough now that she is in trouble. The great thing is that in the middle of reality and fog having a mid-air collision, there has been one constant there for her...one "lighthouse" that she can see even thru the fog. That has been you.

So, now we are starting to get to the crucial point. Yo uare going to want to push things, to make her go faster...to get her to stop the divorce, move back in, fall in love with you again...and you want it all by this weekend, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You are going to have to resist this urge to push. While she is crying out for help and is starting to see reality, she is NOT running back to you yet. She is as confused as she can be and she probably knows that she should probably not make any more decisions right now until her, and a counselor, and you start working thru a few things.

My first question would be...can you afford a few sessions with Steve Harley on the phone for both of you? He is a little expensive, but much cheaper than divorce!! And Steve will be able to take yo uand your wife and come up with the plan that will work for her and you. Steve would love your story, as your wife has been a perfect WS...she has not deviated once. So, I would suggest that you tell your wife that you know of a counslor that does the counseling over the phone, that has a very high success rate, and excels in dealing with problems like the two of you have. Then set up an appointment for you, and then her with him.

If not, then make ure this counslor is pro-marriage and understand the dynamics as outlined by MB. Search around...dont just take the first guy off the street.

Again, dont push. And I might be advocating you push here...but I think if you got her the books "Surviving an Affair" for her and Chapman's "Hope for the Separated," and just gave to her and told her that these were suggested for the situation you two face and might help...hopefully she would read them and get some insight that she needs.

Go slow on this. Dont show up with the books tomorrow night, with the EN questionaire, and counsling sessions already set up. She will get overwhelmed. Just take this day by day over the next week, leave the books for her, and suggest that you can get sessions with the people that wrote that book who will help.

Gramn, slow and steady now. Be the rock. Dependin on your wife, you may not have to go to Plan B. but that is always a possibility. So, stay even keeled. Guide your wife. She is reaching out to you. Dont scare her away. Just be loving but firm. see about havign the divorce put on hold while the two of you go thru counseling....

Anyway, this is excellent news. You are doing wwaaaayyyy better than I did at this point in the game.

In His arms.

OK, so far she told our story to a councilor. A man we visited together before any of this started. She has an appointment to see him alone tomorrow. (She wants to see him alone before going to counciling with me)

I suggested putting the divorce on hold, and she is now considering that, but needs some time before deciding anything like that.

I see what you're saying MM not to push too much. That can be tricky.

She, DD, and the 2 relatives are going to chicago this weekend. (To see a cousin.) The aunt, the cousin, and even the grandma all like me. I'm sure I'll get some absentee support while she is away.

Well, she went to her first counciling session and plans another one. She still wants to go with me, but hasn't commited to when yet.

We went to the mediator but that hasn't accomplished much.
We came to some vague agreements for stuff on a trial basis, but that didn't accomplish much...

Steady as she goes, Gramn. Baby steps.

In His arms.

Gramm:

Your WW is boxed into a corner. Mr Wonderful has not come through as she planned and expected and now she either starts over by herself or with you. She will choose you because she is weak and wants real security. She needs to come back with grace though and you are the chosen person that needs to accept her back.

Remorse and true apologies will not happen soon, bu they will come later, on her time and terms. Don't expect too much too soon. They reach a point when they can't believe the things they did but you are a long ways off from that. Somehow, you have to learn to accept their weakness as a learning process. You NEVER completely and fully understand it but you learn to accept their mistake as one you could have made too.

The few months of pain and agony are small compared to the long life of being married and raising children. Be strong and it will rebuild one day or one hour at a time.

TooSoon

It is so frustrating and depressing all the time.

She called me today to see how I was doing.

But during our conversation she still says "She loves him" and "He broke my heart" and "I don't trust you for calling his wife"...