Gramn we started with EXACTLY that same new deal you just mentioned a couple of posts above. Then WW violated then I took those three steps.

Don't go insane, be strong. However it goes, you will come out of this a happier man!

Anyway I don't think that new deal will help you. Maybe just do those three steps instead?

I could take back that promise, but I really have nothing to tell OMW right now. I have no evidence for her, and she has NEVER shared any useful evidence with me...

Gramm, that's ok, but let your W know that you will be in frequent contact with the OMW and have no intention of honoring a bad promise. [don't tell her you have nothing to tell the OMW, let your W's imagination run wild] Turn it on her and ask her why she is so scared of you contacting the OM's wife?

Your W is completely out of line to even ask you not to contact her and you need to tell her this.

Plan A does not stand for appeasement, Gramm. Please stop trying to appease her by agreeing to ridiculous and outrageous demands.

I've already been thinking this exact same thing.

I will tell you why, Gramm. It is because she is trying to get back together with him, but knows that if you are comparing notes with the OMW it will ruin her efforts. So, you see how silly it is to help her do this? She is very sneaky, but she is also very obvious.

She is also very good at turning the tables and manipulating you into thinking you are the bad guy for catching her being bad. She tries to control you in this way and prevent you from catching her. Unfortunately, she is usually successful in doing this.

Gramn I'm a newbie - our D-days are a day apart. But FWIW I'm with Melody. Seems to me that whatever your WW does NOT want you to do, is probably what you should do.

Maybe there is some way to approach OMW that will help her to be more cooperative? Not sure what it might be though. Maybe ask her thoughts as to why WW doesn't want you to be in touch with her?

I'm just getting tired of all this.

Something is obviously going on again,but I lack the necessary info. And, the more I pry, the more secretive she becomes. She has her own phone and apartment. She could do all sorts of things when I'm not around.

Gramm, I know you are tired of all this, and you are limited in your resources. But please don't agree to forfeit the few resources you do have just to appease an unreasonable demand from your WW. She needs to think that you are in constant contact with the OMW and have her under survellience.

Gramn,

If you get to go to her apartment pretty regularly then have you considered hiding a voice activated digital sound recorder somewhere in her apartment. Purchase one with the longest battery life and just retrieve it in a day or two. It may provide you with immeasurable information. Do not get caught as this may be illegal in your state. Don't rat me out if you do, I don't want get in trouble for conspiracy to induce illegal survellance and wire taping. Ha!

Mr. Wondering

I understand that others on MB have gotten access to WW's cell phone records somehow. If you ask - maybe in new thread with a descriptive title - you may find out how.

Gramm:

I think I know your frame of mind. You are not only devistated by your WW but you want your family back as you knew it before the affair. You feel a fear of doing one more thing wrong which will cause you to lose your wife forever, which causes you to walk on eggshells. I was the same way. Afraid of losing it all. I was humiliated, embarrassed, hurt beyond belief, etc. and gues what my ww did, she used that to her advantage.

There is a fine line between between being a fool and being a person who draws a line in the sand. You are close to Plan B because all signs are there where she wants the best of both worlds. Don't let her have that. She may have to make a choice and the choice may be freedom but likely not. So many women want security and you are that. She knows that. Be firm with her. She needs to know you are falling out of love for her as a result of her absent. It might be time to tell her you are ready to move on to a new life and women for yourself. It doesn't mean you will, it means there has to be a price for her ongoing actions.

Do not be afraid of being firm. Tough love is very necessary in certain circumstances. Keep working to save your marriage but be realistic to yourself.

toosoon

I get what you're saying TooSoon...

I'm thinking of giving this plan A another week and then going to Plan B if it's still like this.

She HAS expressed some interest in seeking counciling with me and things like that, but I talked to her councillor. He doesn't think she is ready for that yet. (I suspect he knows she's in the "withdrawal" phase or whatever) . I want to see what she does once her aunt and grandma leave this weekend.

[color:"red"]***Edited to "bold" the part of the quote that I disagree with...hope this provides clarity regarding my point.***[/color]

Hi Gramn~

Though I don't want to step on TooSoon's toes, and you probably already know this anyway...BUT...I would be weary of saying anything like the above to your W during this "fogged out" time, unless you really mean it.

While I was in my own fog, I actually tried to convince Mr. Wondering to go and have an A of his own...really sick, I know, but I don't think that I'm the first WS who came up with that riduculous idea...I'm afraid that if you throw down the gauntlet in this way, your W may be amicable to it in her present state of mind, and then you'd be forced to backtrack, ya know? Fog makes the irrational seem rational to those in it...

Just thought I'd throw that out there, for whatever it's worth...you've come so far, I, like everyone else here, would hate to see a snafu trip you up at this stage of the game...

Mrs. Wondering

Mrs. Wondering and Gramm:

Here is how I see Gramm's case. His WW still is very much love with her OM. The problem is the OM has been pulled back to his marriage by the OMW. I say Gramm should remain in contact with OMW until he knows the relationship is def. over. That was suggested by others too.

Gramm's WW is at a crossroad, she is trying like mad to get the OM back but is up against the OMW to get her OM back. My approach is a bit of a 180 degree approach. She needs to think she will lose both men by not recommitting back to Gramm and she already knows deep down inside the OM and her are over.

Gramm either tolerates her fence sitting, cake-eating, his WW loving her OM more than him or he gives her an ultimadum, which is his stated plan B. I reached a point by giving my FWW an ultimadum but not before exposure and the aftermath of exposure, either choose the OM or me. My FWW knew I was going to do more damage by further exposure and she already started seeing the real OM as a result of his positioning and selfishness after expsoure. My wife knew her relationship with the OM was coming to an end since reality was added to her affair. Gramm's wife knows now that she and her OM's future does not appear to be happening since her OM pulled in his strings and didn't really mean his stated love for Gramm's WW.

His WW stated to her lawyer she wants to work on the marriage but is still working to save her lover. If Gramm makes her believe she will lose both, she will likley come back to him. She knows the OM's family and wife have already taken her OM back as their own against Gramm's WW's desire. She is caught in the middle.

I believe Gramm is falling out of love as I was with My FWW. I couldn't take it anymore and I told my WW that in front of my MC. I said to her to choose and if she chose the OM, I would be gone forever. That day she decided to give her two weeks notice to quit her job which would implement NC since it was a workplace affair. Her withdrawal began immediately but really kicked in on her final day of work. The end of the affair must begin to start the reconnection with the BS and Gramm's wife has not ended the affair in her own mind even though she knows the odds are against her due to the OMW being in the picture.

Here is something to consider, my WW never left my house but she came close by putting a deposit down on an apartment. Gramm's WW left and moved to an apartment. Gramm needs to stop his own pain by making her think she has now destroyed her family and lost her lover both. I say she will come back quicker with an ultimadum (plan B), and with the suggestion of Gramm moving on to a new future. In fact, I would suggest that part of her ultimadum is she move back to the house and account for all of her actions, phone records, e-mails, etc.

Gramm cannot continue to let her continue on at his expense. His love bank has got to be depleted to nothing at this time. A BS can only take so much. I wanted my pain to end at all costs when I found out my FWW was totally in love with another man and was leaving me and the kids.

Just a thought for all to consider. Gramm must follow his own heart.

TooSoon

I am in agreement with TooSoon. Gramn's Love Bank has to be depleted. My own experience was that even after my D I let my XW know how I felt about her. Her esponse was to begin a PA with her old EA partner. How do you think that made me feel? At the same time I heard rumblings from a friend about an affair she had 5 years earlier. Because we were divorced she owed me nothing...not even honesty. I went dark..a Plan B that I had no idea about I found MB long after our D. It was suggested by my IC as I refused meds...and I was going into a deep dark hole...

I began to move on. I would not speak to her about anything other than business (our boys). I would not allow her to know she upset me by her actions. I KNEW what she was doing. I said nothing. What I did was move on as a divorced man...I dated, a lot. Not as a Man ****** but someone who was lost, scared and not sure what he wanted.

Gramn....do not let her continue...at your expense. I know where you're at. Sleep, eating, and other necessary tasks are now luxuries and you know what? It's just wrong. I assure you Plan B is coming for you, it will be difficult at first but soon you'll see that your life will be OK...without her. She needs to see that on her own...like a bolt of lightning it'll hit her...I just hop eit is not too late for you and how you feel about her
So Gramn..

Gramn: If I count right it's 12+ weeks since your Dday. If you've toughed it out this far you can make it another week. You can do it. Hang in there brother!

[color:"red"]***Edited my prior post to clear up any confusion***[/color]

Too Soon, Send Me, & obviously Gramn...

I am in complete agreement with Plan B as it is layed out by the Harleys...I don't look at it, however, as an ultimatum, but instead as a way for the BS to (a) protect themselves from further hurt and (b) to be used as a means for the BS to protect their love for their WS from further decimation. Dr. Harley calls the Plan B letter a "love letter", and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe a love letter would ever include telling the WS that you are going to go and date other people. If it did say that, it would not only be condoning the adulterous actions of the WS by implying a "what's good for the goose..." philosophy, but could also quite possibly backfire in the way that I mentioned in my previous post...Let us not forget that the goal of the principles set forth by the Harleys is Marriage Building...For Gramn, or any other BS to try to get their WS back in the marriage by either threatening to become an adulterer or actually becoming an adulterer is not in accordance with any of the plans set forth by this site or it's recommended literature, which espouses the same.

I do appologize if the context of my last post was unclear regarding what part of Too Soon's plan that I disagreed with (and maybe I just misunderstood his meaning???). The only part that I took issue with was the "dating other women" clause...sorry, Too Soon, please understand that I mean you no ill will in pointing out possible pitfalls as I see them...It's just that I have been to "fogland", and so I feel qualified to comment about the view from that side of the fence...I'm definitely not proud of it, but I do understand it...

Mrs. Wondering

Thanks. I see what you're all saying.

I have concerns about the TECHNICAL side of doing Plan B.

Here is my current situation:
I have daughter every other weekend.
I have her on wednesday ngihts, and one other ngiht each week depending on WW's work schedule.
On the other nights, I spend time with DD and she stay's with her mom.

The problem with all of this, is that all of this shuffling back & fourth requires A LOT of contact.

Neither of us are willing to give up time with our daughter. Unlike some WW's mine would NOT leave her little girl. Maybe I could try and win full custody in court, but that would take a lot of time and money, and would NOT be in place any time soon.

How do people raising toddlers do Plan B??

I agree mostly with TooSoon. But I would watch how you word these things.

Case in point:

"I am at a point that if you can't commit then I need to start moving on." Almost always, the WS will say "Fine, then go."

Here is a better way...Plan B! With a Plan B letter and full no contact except with dealing with his daughter.

WSs do not react well to ultimatums. What they react to is pain. The loss of Gramn will be painful, especially since she wont have OM anymore and her relatives are leaving.

So, in order to 180 her, so to speak, I suggest that Gramn waits a week or two longer, keeps up what he is doing. Let his wife be alone i nthat apartment, with only Gramn there for her support.

Then, as the dust settles from relatives leaving...and from OM being gone...he drops PBL on his wife and goes dark.

Until then, Plan A is in order as he sets her up. His wife has been a PERFECT example of a WW. She has not waivered once. Thus, I believe Dr. harley stated that when a WS is on the fence and cant decide, Plan B is in order.

So, let her get good and stuck on that fence...with only Gramn meeting needs. Then pull the rug out with Plan B.

My money is she will be home within weeks...even days. At least home in the sense that she will commit to NC with OM and go to counseling.

In His arms.