2 LONG,
They don't get bored, they get convicted of the sin they continue to engage in!
That's what makes them uncomfortable, and that's why they leave. No one agrees with them so they must look elsewhere to find someone, anyone, who will make them feel justified in the sin they continue to commit!
Why would a long term WW come to a place like this site, if for no other reason, than to desperately try to justify their horrible choices in life?
MM, your advise is incredibly perfert. You speak from your heart but your wisdom comes from elsewhere, doesn't it?
I refer back to my original quote, "God will never waste a good wound. HE has found a way to use you and your pain and turn it into something good. KEEP UP YOUR GOOD WORK FOR THE LORD!
A lot has been spolen about "vows." If I may suggest, there is another word here that we tend to neglect, especiallly in a marrieage on the alter before God. That would be the word "COVENENT." When we stand before the altar of God and profess our vows and promises, we ask God to bless our marriage. This, then, becomes a covenent. Unlike vows and promises, that we as human beings, often break, a covenent with God cannot be broken. It is the condition HE placed on us for blessing our marriage and making it truly legitimate.
If we break our covenent without His good reason, we will be held accountable for this on our judgement day.
Having said this, I think ms. V's rantings, are nothing more than a person trying desperately to justify her conviction from the Holy Spirit, which she can not escape, any more than final judgement. Perhaps she will repent, I pray she does!
All Blessings,
Jerry

"MM, your advise is incredibly perfert. You speak from your heart but your wisdom comes from elsewhere, doesn't it?"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I try to stay away from the religious arguments. My Wife has never been very religious and those arguments wouldn't mean much to her.

Also, she was the secretary of our church's "Mother's of Young Children" group. Apparently (somewhat untrue) gossip about this affair spread to these women and they sort of kicked her out. Whatever my Wife did or didn't do, I thought that was a pretty shi##y thing for them to do. They didn't even tell her about the annual family picnic...

Well, on a Chritian perspective Gramn, those women should have approached your wife and asked if this was true. If true, they should have told her that she needed to stop and that they would help her as she did. If she then refused, then the Bible does say that they must separate from someone who is in rebellion to God.

So, while they didnt do the first things they needed to, the church is to enforce standards.

I am sorry she was treated that way. but in many ways, she brought it on herself. Should she decide to behave as a Christian woman, then I am sure she can once again fellowship with those in the church.

In His arms.

She had said to me recently when the affair was falling apart that she had wanted God to finally give her something good in her life and I thought, but didn't say, "God does not support affairs..."

MM,
I have a web site that I wish you would view,
www.tlig.org
Many Christians will beat me with 2x4 s about this site but I feel there are still so many who could benefit from it.
I put this out here at extreme risk to myself, but truly feel this has to be done and I will risk the critique that will surely come my way for this.
I would be happy to discuss this site in depth if anyone should choose to do so, but, be aware, I am no scholar ot theologin. I can't even spell these words correctly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Shinethrough,

It is best to start a new thread on this. I have begun reading some of that website. I have found some concerns with it.

The rule of thumb is that if it contradicts Scripture, then it is a false prophesy.

Anyway, start a new thread on this and I am sure we can all study this together and maybe discern if this is from God, or is just another false prophet.

In His arms.

I read a little of that site and, though it might be interesting, I was asking... This matters to me, why?

Here is an unrelated question that is not a big deal, but kind of annoying...

Wife has set up her apartment and moved out a bunch of stuff, BUT she's still got her stuff all over the house.
Pajamas on the toilet lid
jewelry on the dresser
perfumes and makeup in the bathrooms
knick-nacks everywhere

Do you think I should leave her stuff as is (and make her come home and get it if she wants it) or should I box it up to clean up the place, get it out of my sight?

Gramn - (my un-professional opinion) respectfully clean the stuff that needs to be moved. Same with the jewelry - put it in a safe place - a drawer or it's place. Try to get all of her stuff tucked safely away.

I personally would leave the decorations and stuff she did in place.

Just shooting from the hip here, using dead reckoning.

What in the world is going on with your thread??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

FAR has it right. Just clean it up in order that you can function and house is presentable. Those items are a tie back to you, so leave them there until she decides to come get them.

In Plan B, then you can put them in a box and leave for her outside her apartment door.

In His arms.

Or you could have a bonfire and make smores..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Well on second thought, Mortarman's idea is probably a little better.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Wow, I'm breathless! For weeks now I've been unable to access your thread, and yesterday I got lucky. I've been reading like a speed demon in every spare minute, and finally got to the end of your saga. Amazing, you are going to be a success story. I am praying for you and especially for your "baby" (I still think of my S, 16, as my "baby").

What courage you have shown. You are a gladiator! Wise heads have written to you, they are God's own angels, these ones. Someday your wife will realize what a prize she has with you.

Gramn,

Sorry if my post took on a life of its own, therefore taking away from your problem. I just thought I should flesh out some background for you, so you would see where I was coming from. I understand what you're saying about revenge and why you think your actions were not motivated by revenge. You say that if you'd wanted revenge you, too, would have slept with someone. That rings hollow because it's pretty clear that your WS would not have cared about that. She already has a new guy. I was just trying to express to you what might have made a difference to me when I was having a PA. There are probably some things (this is all said on hindsight, of course) that my ex could have done that might have made me think twice at the time. One of the things he did that was counterproductive: he informed all of my friends of what I was planning to do (divorce him) and tried to get them on his side by attempting to portray me as having lost my marbles. My friends listened to him, of course, but were angry that he tried to co-opt them. I was angry at that, too. Now, many years later, I understand better what he was trying to do, but at the time it made me really angry and made me even more determined to go through with my plan to leave him. As a woman who has been in your wife's shoes, I'm just trying to help you understand that there are certain actions on your part which are more conducive to bringing her back to you, and others which are guaranteed to keep her away! If you can show understanding about how much pain she must be going through (that's hard, I know, because you are suffering as well), she'll be touched by how sensitive you are and might think twice about getting hitched to some guy who may or may not provide her with what you have to give. Plus, there's a small child involved as well, which counts for a lot. If she feels you are still sneaking around spying on her and are rallying the troops against her, you'll just be backing her into a corner and forcing her into something she may not even still want at this point.
In my case, I really lucked out, but I guess that's pretty rare. In your case, though, it's probable that your WS isn't really sure about what she wants, and she might just be yearning --although she probably wouldn't admit it-- to have her family back again. You need to leave her an opening and it will probably require one of the greatest sacrifices you've ever made: swallow your husbandly pride and sincerely hope that you can both work things out together.
I am not by nature a sneaking around person, which is why I told my ex about the PA a few days after it started. I don't know if it made it any better for him, but I know that it would be more devastating to me to discover my spouse had been sneaking around for months without me knowing. He wanted me to stay in the marriage. The groundwork for our divorce had been laid for years before and we were probably both unaware of how much so. The PA was just an excuse and a way out: it wasn't the cause as so many of you guys seem to think. If it hadn't been for the OM, I'm not sure I would have had the courage to leave, but I really needed to. The more hindsight I have, the more I realize I needed to do that.

I guess my post touched a cord, mostly with the guys it seems. I am a woman, but of course that's hard to prove on chatboards. One of you misogynous guys says I couldn't be a woman because a woman wouldn't divorce her husband because of lack of sex... Oh yeah? Well, I guess I was the exception then. Another one claims the post is too slick and well-written. There is such a thing as postgraduate education...
Someone else says that if I was so happy, why was I looking through these posts. Well, that is a good question. Partly, I think, because I'm still trying to understand what happened to my first marriage, because even though I feel I did the right thing, it's always wise to understand what went wrong so one can make improvements and secure the future. I also want to help my kids avoid the same mistakes I made. Being happy in a second marriage doesn't mean one doesn't regret mistakes the first time. All the crap about honor, though, is for you military guys out there, yada, yadda, yadda..

The stuff about Christopher Reeve makes me think it was written by a woman, since it was so irrational and irrelevant. We're talking about a man and a woman who were married, and then the man became helpless involuntarily. Obviously, one doesn't leave someone who did not choose to become helpless.

For all you guys out there: one of the main reasons I left my first husband was because his (male) cousin pointed out to me --very accurately, I thought--: why would you stay married to a man for 22 years who could never get it together enough to take care of your needs??? Right, I said. I stuck it out with this loser for 22 years while he ignored those needs. He was not helpless, I might add. He was totally able to help himself get well, but he choose not to: big difference. Ironically, my present husband takes his responsibilities in this area very seriously. He promised me he would before we got married, and he has kept his promise.

It really does gall me when people think they know so much and take on sanctimonious airs. Who are you, mortar, some religious fanatic or a minister who thinks he can preach salvation to people? Judging by the length and frequency of your posts, I'd say that you don't spend much time with a spouse of your own.

Gramn, I agree with everyone else: you are very brave and are going through a tough time, but pain is what eventually teaches us the best lessons, and it will make you a better person in the end no matter what. Because of what I went through our family has been strengthened tenfold and both my husband and I are very blessed to have close relationships with all of our kids. We already have several wonderful sons and daughter-in-laws, as well as a couple of grandchildren. I pray that you find the strength and the love you need to get you through this difficult trial: you'll need all of it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Wow! Who is being misogynistic here? You're on your own with that comment!

Why are you here, on only this thread, saying very non-MB things, trying to get Gramn to change what he is doing to save his marriage? His actions are working! You must admit that it is suspicious.

If you are actually y-guy, like many suspect you are, you may be able to save *your* marriage with MB principles.

Why not start your own thread, like another poster suggested, and bring up your issues and questions there? I'm sure plenty of MBers will be happy to talk to you about them.

verveine

You obviously still have issues with your previous relationship.

As WST mentions, start up your own thread, and I have no doubt the vets here can help you resolve your issues.

FreeAllAngels

Before this blows up again I copied Verveine's last post and started a new thread "Verveine - just for you". Whether it's 2 x 4's or just to offer her advice, I believe a separate thread is gonna be necessary.

Verveine, I am just too tired to post. You appear lost at so many different levels it's difficult to figure out who you are. 32 (22 plus 10) years of marriage and a post graduate education..but (IMO) you're still unqualified to give Gramn advice because you've never SAVED a marriage. I have. So has Mortarman. We didn't have to "swallow our husbandly pride" to do it. We choose to be men, we fell to our knees, and we fought for our families.

It's a public forum so do what you want. However, I don't really think Gramn wants or needs your discouraging and confusing advice any longer. So please take your issues, rationalizations, justifications, and reasoning to the other thread I set up for you or start your own to discuss whatever. Good luck to you, I hope you find what you're seeking.

Mr. WWWondering

Obviously she has some serious resentments - particularly against men - and will hopefully take it to her own thread.

Verve, this is not the time or place for your "issues;" Gramm has enough on his hands without your bitter nonsense. Why not take this to your own thread?

Zactly. Gramn, this is your thread. Keep us posted.

Now, to head over to Verve's thread to see what's going on.

In His arms.

I can tell useful advice from $#iT on my own, people. And whether Verviene knows anything useful or not, it's still good to get a fresh perspective sometimes. WWwondering was another WW who posted in this thread a few times. She had a different perspective too. In a few ways, I think Verviene has the right idea, but it's probably not anything I havent' already been doing.

Do you want me to explain my reasons for doing what I did? I can give you a list of them if you want me to. (By reading this thread, you'd already know most of them, though.) Revenge was NOT one of them. How would seeking revenge help me get my wife back? It wouldn't!

I suspect that this IS how some of my wife's friends feel. I didn't discuss divorce and I didn't say "she's crazy" but that she is going through problems and needed their help. Many of them supported her affair behavior though! Now that her affair has ended and her problems are much worse, it's obvious that I was right. Not that any of those "friends" will encourage her to work on her marriage...

I've been trying to do that all along. It's hard when she is often reluctant to even talk to me. Her FAMILY have told her not to call me. (Because they think I'll upset her) Even so, I talk to her over the computer and through email every day. Last night she was feeling terrible and I said that I wanted to give her a hug, and she said that she'd like to hug me too. I realize that a hug is not a recommitment to marriage, but those things might add up. I also sent her an e-card saying that I am praying for her this morning.

We have lots of problems, but me not wanting sex was NEVER one of them...

More s#it has been going on, but right now I'm not sure if I trust to posting things here...

Is this post being monitored?