Gramn,

Orders are orders - do not sway from them. Tell her the two of you MUST follow what the Judge ordered.

Regards,

BB

I'm happy to follow this Temporary order. I guess I can let her fight it if she wants to.

Gramm-

For once I don't agree with MM. I think that now that the courts have entered your sit, you need to stick by the order.

I bent over backward trying to come to an understanding with WH. The more I gave, the more he took. My last talk with him went like this -

"WH - I made vows with you and hoped that we would stay married. That has always been my fondest hope. However, since we were not able to agree on things, and it has been necessary to seek legal assistance, I will leave all decisions to the court."

He went on and on about how he doesn't want to leave things to the court, thinks we can agree, blah, blah, blah. I tried for over 2 years, but there is just no agreeing with him. I'm letting the legal machine take over.

Believer, we arent that far apart. I think we really are saying the same thing.

I didnt say give to WW. I said trade. If she would rather have a particular Thursday night, let's say, because of something she wants to do with daughter, then I see no harm in doing that, provided that Gramn gets something in return. Maybe that next Saturday night, when she was supposed to have their daughter. See what I mean?

No bending over backwards. No giving and not getting. At this point, meeting needs does not mean being a doormat, because as Believer said...the WS will just take and run.

What I am saying is that if you compromise by trading times or days here and there, then Gramn will be seen by the court as someone that will further the relationship of their daughter with her mother. At the same time, Mrs. Gramn will be fighting for strict time, on her terms. This will not be seen as good by the judge. This will be another feather in Gramn's cap, because he was the one going the extra mile to make sure things happened for both him and his wife.

Again, I am not saying give anything. I am saying that in the negotiations, while he is in Plan A (no negotiations while in Plan B!!), that if he can trade a night here or there in order to show he is doign what is in the best interest of the child, then the court will like this.

Added to this, it will allow him to continue to put in units into his wife's love bank.

Now Gramn, the case can certainly be made for doing the following. Dont negotiate on anything. Stick to the letter of the ruling, and tell your wife "I am here for our marriage, and would love to talk about us and how we can save our marriage and our family. If it is divorce you want to talk about, then that is best left up to my attorney and you are free to contact him with any issues. Honey, I am all about our marriage. I do not do divorce." And then leave things be. That will detach him from the actions of his attorney somewhat.

This helped me. Once I was in the mode of no more negotiations, I said these things to my wife. She would want to discuss things, but I just went back to this script. After awhile, she realized that I wasnt going to talk about divorce, custody or anything else with her. So, our conversations became about things other than that. Divorce and custody discussions always lead to bad arguments. Better to stay away from them if you can.

So, what I am saying is that if you want to make some trades, then fine. Otherwise, get back on script and keep Plan Aing. Let your wife ultimately worry about custody, etc. Show her that you do mean to fight for your family and marriage. Show her that you will fight for your daughter.

These are traits that she will be angry at...but deep down, in love with.

In His arms.

Thanks again guys.

I just had a conversation with her. Itold her that we could be flexible and make a few changes to the deal. She was very beligerant and said that she would "fight it" if the temporary custody was left the way it was.

I'm like... Fight the temporary order? It's temporary, why do that?

So, I'll see if we can come to any agreements. We'll see...

LOL Gramn.....I'm sorry but your last post made me laugh, WS's are just so ridiculous.....fighting a temporary order...LOL!!!!

-Caren

You are in Plan A right? Then the visitation is easy. She is more then welcome to come spend any evening she wants with you and your daughter. Don't trade nights. If she wants to see your daughter during your time, then it should be as a family. Plan A, Plan A, Plan A.

I already thought of that simple plan.
BUT she wants to FIGHT to change the Court Order... What the heck... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I just joined this forum and have read (almost) all of the posts regarding your situation. I feel very sad for you Gramm, and am not sure that all of the advice provided for you on this site did the best job of helping you keep your wife. It looks like you got tips about being a good spy, and you got revenge on your wife and the OM by letting others know of their dishonest actions, but did you really obtain the result you desired in the end, i.e. getting to keep your wife and child?
As the WW in a situation similar to yours, I can tell you that your actions were not the ones that were going to induce your wife to get back together with you. If you read W. Harley's book, you would find that the reason spouses get sidetracked into EAs which then become PAs, is because their needs were not being met.
In my case I was married for many years during which I endured my husband's lack of conversation, lack of affection and, most importantly, lack of ability to fulfill my sexual needs. I let him know on many occasions that this was a problem. Like many men, however, he did not see any of this as a problem which occasioned enough misery to have to address. On many levels we were good friends, but one day, after years of encouraging him to address his lack of sexual expertise and after years of trying to let him know what my sexual needs were and how to satisfy them (I am very uninhibited and love sex), I decided I'd had enough. An affair ensued (which lasted a week). Then I asked him for a divorce, at which point he realized I was serious, but instead of letting me know how much he loved me, he tried to co-erce me into remaining with him. He also promised to get help with his sexual disfunction (something he'd always denied/refused to do when we were married). By the time I had an affair, I'd had it up to here. Therefore, I suggest, dear Gramm, that it was the same for your wife, and that by the time she began her affair, she was already way past the point where she wanted to become reconciled with you. It sounds like maybe you didn't make her feel financially secure with all the debt in the marriage. Most women crave financial security. What you needed to ask yourself was: why wasn't I willing or able to meet her needs, and since she was getting her needs met elsewhere by now, you needed to figure out how to communicate to her that you were now willing to change in order to meet her needs, which were perfectly legitimate. You must have broken your promise that you made on your wedding day to take care of her. If you had taken care of her, trust me, she would not have sought to have her needs met elsewhere, because she would have had too much to lose.
Most men/women are too focused on blaming their spouse for getting into an affair, rather than asking themselves how they could have avoided it in the first place and then asking themselves what they could do to change that. I suspect spouses who were willing to question how they contributed to their spouse's waywardness would have a higher success rate at getting their wife back than those who indulge in recriminations, spying and revenge: not exactly conducive to re-building a relationship.
I've read the statistics about the success of WWs and WHs getting together. I guess I'm not part of those statistics. The man I had an affair with over 15 years ago is my husband and we have now been happily married for over 10 of those years. He is emotional and affectionate, and we have strong bonds of unity and passionate sex on a regular basis, something I never had with my first husband, not even once. We are still as crazy in love with each other as we were when we became lovers, but that is because we are soulmates and were meant for each other. Neither one of us regrets for a second having left our ex for each other, except because of the children. I can't help thinking, though, that if my first H and I had read W. Harley's book, His Needs, Her Needs, we would not have divorced. That would have been a better outcome for the children, for sure. I feel really bad for you Gramm, because I know it must be painful. Look on the bright side, though: if you improve your ability to meet another woman's needs, I'm sure you, too, will find the woman of your dreams and can find happiness, just as we did.
Take care and don't get too caught up in the nastiness of divorce: it could take you and your wife years to recover from that. That would be bad for your child. I am very lucky that all of my kids adore their stepdad and have a great relationship with him. Life can get better for you. Try not to act bitterly towards your ex.

Have you read SAA by Harley/Chalmers? Everything Gramm has done has been by the book as suggested by Harley. He has made a lot of progress. He has been trying to meet her needs as best as she will let him. Please do not berate him for following what the Harleys suggest.




As a FWS, I can say that not having your needs met contributes to having an A, but is not the sole reason for doing so. That is too much of a simplification. The WS needs to find out what weakness he/she has in his/herself that allowed him/her to break his/her wedding vows and ignore all of his/her beliefs. At some point, you knew what you were doing was wrong, yet you continued to do it.

Gramm, you are doing great!! Keep up the good work.

verveine:

My first thought, as I started reading your post, was: "Ah, Mrs Gramn! Hello!"

But let me assume that what you've recounted (at length), really happened and describes you, in which case you're not Mrs Gramn, but perhaps someone from TOW...

But let me give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you're "legit" and are trying 2 be helpful.

There are a few things I'd like 2 point out about your post, though:

"I feel very sad for you Gramm, and am not sure that all of the advice provided for you on this site did the best job of helping you keep your wife."

The goal here is not for Gramn 2 "keep" her, as that sounds like enslavement. The goal is 2 help her face the consequences of the poor choices she's made.

" did you really obtain the result you desired in the end, i.e. getting to keep your wife and child?"

What would you suggest? Gramn is still pretty early in this "process", and so far he's done a fabulous job. Again, "keeping" people isn't his goal, but rather restoring his family is.

"If you read W. Harley's book, you would find that the reason spouses get sidetracked into EAs which then become PAs, is because their needs were not being met."

If you read quotes from his son Steve, you'll know that it isn't unmet needs that "cause" people 2 stray, but rather weaknesses on the part of the WS. They don't protect the M from their own weaknesses - their susceptibility 2 succumb 2 temptation.

"after years of trying to let him know what my sexual needs were and how to satisfy them (I am very uninhibited and love sex), I decided I'd had enough. An affair ensued"

And this was your first H's fault? As Dr Phil says "before you can have another relationship, you need 2 finish this one first." Meaning (assuming it needs translation) that even if the way you tried 2 make your H aware of the problem you were having with his sexual prowess was kind and considerate, the NEXT step would have been 2 seek professional help, then DV if that didn't work. NOT have an affair. An affair is always wrong and always the WS' responsibility entirely. There is no excuse for having an affair.

"Therefore, I suggest, dear Gramm, that it was the same for your wife, and that by the time she began her affair, she was already way past the point where she wanted to become reconciled with you."

It is statements like this that make me wonder if you might be Mrs Gramn, or some troll. If you had read Harley's books, you'd know that your assessment is dead wrong.

"you needed to ask yourself was: why wasn't I willing or able to meet her needs, and since she was getting her needs met elsewhere by now, you needed to figure out how to communicate to her that you were now willing to change in order to meet her needs, which were perfectly legitimate."

Once Mrs Gramn started her A, there was absolutely nothing that Gramn could do 2 convince her that he was willing 2 "change" for her. She needs 2 separate herself from her affair partner before she can appreciate what Gramn does for her and how much he loves her. Believe me, I know. My W just started coming out of a 14-yr fog from her long term EA (with some PA). I've known about the A for over 3.5 years, and yet nothing I've done since finding out has made a difference - not directly that is. What's made the difference is that the A ended and she's started waking up (and is realizing what she stands 2 lose).

"If you had taken care of her, trust me, she would not have sought to have her needs met elsewhere, because she would have had too much to lose. "

Re-read this thread. Mrs Gramn is starting 2 get a glimmer of realization of what she has 2 lose, and it's massive.

"I suspect spouses who were willing to question how they contributed to their spouse's waywardness would have a higher success rate at getting their wife back than those who indulge in recriminations, spying and revenge: not exactly conducive to re-building a relationship."

The BS is 50% responsible for the problems with the M that lead up 2 an A. So is the WS. But the WS is 100% responsible for choosing 2 have the A. Simple math. Think about it. If the BS doesn't KNOW about the A, and certainly didn't sanction it, how could they be held responsible in any way for it? They can't. Sadly, the real problems with the marriage can't be addressed until the affair is over and both spouses are willing 2 do whatever it takes 2 rebuild the M, WITHOUT the OP "waiting in the wings" as a backup.

Most WSs get angry if they find their BS is snooping, because it burst the fantasy bubble around the affair, which can thrive only in secrecy. If the don't like the heat, they'd better get out of the oven.

Exposing an A isn't revenge, it's telling the truth. If the affairees are really having such a wonderful time with their newfound solemates, they should be delighted 2 share that with the world.

"I've read the statistics about the success of WWs and WHs getting together. I guess I'm not part of those statistics. "

Sure you are, if what you're saying is true. Your one of the 3% or so that do make it past 5 years. I'm glad it wasn't me trying 2 beat those odds.

"Neither one of us regrets for a second having left our ex for each other, except because of the children. "

Sounds like regret 2 me.

-ol' 2long

I can feel the hurt in your response as a BH, and of course the longer an A has gone on, the greater the sense of betrayal (in your case a very long time it seems). Fortunately, I am not Mrs. Gramn. For one, she does not seem to be entirely happy with her OM, and for another she and her husband have a young child. Mine are all grown up, and my present H and I are very fortunate to now be in a happy family.
You talk about what Steve Harley says. I have not read anything by him, only by his father. Obviously, someone who decides to have an A has a weakness: they have been suffering for a number of years, right? And the spouse who thinks "everything is wonderful and nothing is wrong" has been in denial and has thus denied their spouse the opportunity to have their needs meet since they don't acknowledge that they have any unmet needs in the first place. You're right, an affair is the result of weakness, but let me tell you, I am aware of that, but isn't it interesting how I have absolutely had no temptations for an A ever since I've been happily married... I used to have temptations all the time...
For the record, the spouse who does not succumb to an A does not necessarily get to put a star on their forehead: their weakness often manifests itself differently: in passive-agressive denial of their spouse's needs. Not anything to be proud of. I have no need to justify my affair one way or the other. I've done my "mea culpa," and I've had my regrets where the kids are concerned, for sure, but all in all, though, most people cannot live in misery for decades in a marriage without manifesting some form of deviant behavior, whether the result is an affair, an addiction of some sort, etc. What strikes me as odd is the degree to which people adulterate their behavior in so many ways, yet they want to focus on a man/woman who carry an adultery to its conclusion. I have no problem admitting that adultery was not the best way to conclude a negative marriage. Although I am not proud of what I did and was sad that I went down that path, I guess I am one of the lucky ones who actually came out successfully in the end.
The fact is that those who feel so self-righteous on this sight about accusing spouses who have gone astray in their marriage should not point fingers until they have searched their own souls to determine what kind of compromising actions they may have taken themselves that contributed to their spouse's weakness. The non-straying spouse is of course not directly responsible for their WS straying from the marriage: that is their own decision, just as it is not the fault of a chronically abusive husband if his wife ends up shooting him. However, how much of a consolation is that -- knowing that it wasn't your decision, but theirs even though you helped push them to it?

"P.S." 2Long: we did seek professional help on several occasions. In one instance, the "professional" tried to imply that I was frigid. No man I had ever been with would agree with that, not even the H! That was short-lived since presumably the "professional" was working with the traditional stereotype of the "frigid wife." After that we went to more professionals, but neither my H nor myself found them helpful, and finally he was too embarrased to go to someone anymore as it implied a slight to his virility. And to be clear, we were not talking about sexual "prowess" here, since in my book that is reserved for hunks and playboys. We would have been content with mere sexual "adequacy."

verveine, the end is not here so he doesn't know if he gets his wife back or not. However, he does know that he doesn't lose her to an affair, which was the greatest threat to his marriage. And that is because he nuked that baby wide open. It is over because he exposed it. Not out of "revenge" but to save his marriage.

And sometimes unmet needs lead to an affair, not always. Even so, it is NEVER EVER an excuse for an affair. The WS is always 100% responsible for that choice no matter what the BS has done or not done. The WS made that sleazy, bad choice all on their own and it is never justified.

Citing unmet needs is an excuse and nothing more. Adultery is never the solution to marital problems. You weren't exactly spouse of the year yourself, you lost that award with your affair. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


What he will do with you, he will do TO you, just remember that and watch your back. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Somebody has been watching too many chick flicks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Wow verveine-

You made big assumptions based on your own situation! I can relate to the unmet needs that you experienced in your first marriage (mine are a little different but unmet neverhteless). I was also feeling tempted to stray. But guess what- I came here instead. I plan on working on my marriage and preserving my marriage vows. Many times I had approached my H about unmet needs with little response. I finally sought a counselor and got great advice. I'm very new at this but I am hopeful. Now I need to continue to work on myself, meeting the needs of my H, and redusing LB's. In a sense I am doing a plan A (similar to Gramm wihtout having the affair as an obstacle). Sorry Verveine but you are wrong- Gramm is doing an excellent job at improving himself and his marriage in spite of his wive's affair. Keep it up Gramm!!!

Gramn,

Unfortunately, there was very little in Verveine's post that would be helpful to you. Sure, so far she has beat the odds. But taking the kind of advice that she is handing out is like playing Russian Roulette with 5 bullets in the chamber, instead of just one. I have better odds of winning the lottery than an affair turning into a happy, healthy, longterm marriage. So, let's concentrate on the most probable course that your marriage has taken and will take.

Your deal has been textbook Harley. We warned you things would not jump back overnight. You have accepted the things you did or didnt do in the marriage that helped lead your marriage to this point. You are making amends and becoming a better husband. So, you are doing all of the right things.

One funny thing Verveine stated was that if her ex and her had read Dr. Harley's stuff that they wouldnt have probably gotten divorced. And that would have been better for the kids, even. This goes in line with the statistics that state that almost all people interviewed 5 years after their divorce and had remarried, stated that they wish they had given their first marriage more effort and a better chance. Sure, Verveine states that she has an ideal marriage. Maybe she does. But she also seems to realize the damage she has done to herself and especially her children because of this.

Sure, igonoring or not meeting your spouses needs is wrong and will lead to divorce, etc. But nowhere in the vows did it say that not having your needs met was a reason for divorce. Nowhere in the vows did it state that "I will love you as long as you love me."

A funny thing about vows. They are based on a person's character, on their honor. When you make a vow, you do so not knowing the future. Not knowing how good or bad things will get. Not knowing how richer or poorer. Not knowing how sick or how well we will be. Not knowing when death will come and this marriage will end. Instead, we make a vow to be there no matter what. No matter if my spouse doesnt meet my needs.

Look, what if the former Mr. Verveine had been paralyzed in an automobile accident and could no longer fulfill her sexual and other needs she outlined. Let's say he was meeting them well before, but could no longer do it. Would she then leave him because he was incapable of meeting those needs? Or let's say he had a biological problem that even Viagra couldnt help. Would she leave him then?

Christopher Reeves had a wonderful wife. Know why? Because she stod by him right to the end, even though he could not meet many of her needs. She even talked about one day on how she would still engage him in some types of SF and affection to make him still feel like a man. She understood that her vows stated until DEATH do we part, not until debt, or unmet needs, do we part.

What I am saying is that to take a vow is to pledge your honor. To say that until death will I live up to this. That if I make a mistake while living up to it, I will repent...askign forgiveness and making amends.

The number one thing needed in marriage isnt love, or sex, or needs met. The number one thing needed in a marriage is commitment. Commitment to live up to our vows, even if the other party isnt living up to theirs. ESPECIALLY if they arent living up to theirs.

It is about our own character, and honor. THAT is why some people do not have affairs. And why some people live up to their vows, even when it appears all is lost.

And some people do not understand that. I have been surrounded by some of the most honorable people I will ever know in the military. They are willing to give their lives for another, and pledge duty, honor and country. Even if they are captured. Even if they are about to be over run. Even if the enemy is threatening them with decapitation if they dont renounce the United States...they still hold firm to their vows. Why? Why hold firm, especially when you are facing death? It has to do with honor. It has to do with how my dishonor will affect those that continue on.

Dishonor in a marriage is the same. When the marriage is dishonored, it is passed down 4 generations. And it doesnt matter if the kids are grown or not. The dishonor is passed down 4 generations. Verveine's great grand children can thank her for some of their problems with marriage, because she will have allowed this to pass on down. How? Many ways. Now her children, and greandchildren, will think that this divorce situation is normal...is healthy. They will get the idea that if mom/grandma did it, then it is okay. If they know about the affair, then they will think that is okay. So, they will not give their marriages the "until death" attention that it deserves. And they will end up with marital problems themselves, and be unable to cope because they will believe it is normal and okay to just quit.

Gramn, you have been a man of honor. If you had been a soldier, I know you would have served honorably and I would have been proud to serve by you. Your actions during these trying times have shown you to be a man dedicated to honor, to your duty as a husband and father...to your family. And most importantly, to God!

No matter what happens from here on out, your succeeding generations will thank you for your stand that you have taken. Any issues concerning divorce or infidelity will be passed directly to your wife, if this divorce does go through. Your progeny will know who was the honorable one. Not who didnt make mistakes, or who was perfect. But who was...when the chips were down...a man or woman of honor.

So far that has been you Gramn. The jury is still out on your wife. We continue to pray that she too will be a woman of honor. For her sake. For Gramn's. And for their kids and grand kids.

In His arms.

verveine:

I'm not a religious man, and me and MM have been at odds at times on here, but his post is right on the mark.

MM: Thanks for getting this thread back on track.

Gramn: You're doing fine. You're doing right. I understand the moments of doubt and despair, but you will overcome them, not they you.

best,
-ol' 2long

WOW MM! Simply beautiful!!!

That is exactly what I am trying to achieve in my marriage. I am lucky to come from an intact family with ( in retrospect I remember many times either my mom or dad could've left their M- but they didn't. Whether at times they stayed for the kids or not, it doesn't matter. It gave me an example of commitment. I agree that the affects of divorce linger on way beyong the dissolved marital relationship. Excellent post MM!!

Thanks 2Long...we do agree on more than we disagree!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Honor is one of those words that rings in everyone's breast. Beautiful, meaningful, important word. Thanks for your message MM.
Question: we vow unconditionally, but really we have expectations based on promises and representations spouse has made. If spouse dishonors those, are we still to love unconditionally a person who has acted dishonorably?