Gramm,

I bumped up TOGETHERALONE's thread on Self Belief. It should be right below this one. Please read it.

Before you go to plan B you must have the confidence in yourself that you are better that she!

AND YOU ARE!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

K

I don't think we are in any major indifference at all. I hope this clarifies my ideas with Wondering. I have always viewed Plan B as ultimadum in principle disguised by the preservation of love. What plan B does is eliminate the cake-eater from having the best of both worlds.

I don't endorse the BS to have an affair but what I like adding the 180 blend into the plan B. Create the illution of the BS living or prparing to live a life without the WS. I did reference the 180 plan into the post that caused some concerns. Gramm should join a health spa, buy some new clothes, change his hair style, clean his car up, jazz things up, and prepare for his future with or without his wife. His wife will take notice and will begin to wonder what he is up to. Gramm keeps quiet and tells her he has dinner plans with friends and can't take his daughter, etc. Then he goes to relatives house by himself, etc. Being a betrayer as Gramm's wife was and is, she will automatically assume something is up with her husband, probably causing a tint of jealousy. If she is not fazed, then Gramm is truely preparing himself for a life without his WW. I think Mortaman is right, Gramm's ww is on the verge of total break and colla[se and will be running back to Gramm soon. It is up to Gramm to set the tone of the rebuilding of the relationship. Ultimadums are very much part of Dr. Harley's plan, he just doesn't say it that way. A couple of examples, "you can move back home only if you promise this and that; if you continue the affair, I will take the kids and move; If you have any contact, it is over; if I catch you cheating again, it is over, etc" ...all ultimadums.

Plan B is described as a self preservation event for if the BS continues to be abused by their spouse, they will fall in love. I admit, I have come to believe 1000% that Dr. Harley has this stuff down to a science but it only works for those who ultimately want it to work.

Gramm, read up on the 180 degree plan. It shows how you are turning your back so to speak on your WW and moving on with determination and purpose. It is a designed houdini ploy but it works and it also prepares you at the same time if the marriage can't be saved.

Like I said, overall we all agree with the direction but Gramm must follow his heart for he will reap the benefits or take on the loss in the end.

TooSoon

TooSoon, you really have got me thinking tonight. I, too, have always viewed Plan B as an ultimatum. I don't see anything wrong with ultimatums, though. I have never understood what the big deal was about them. However, when you look at the definition of ultimatum, I am not sure it fits.

1. A final statement of terms made by one party to another.
2. A statement, especially in diplomatic negotiations, that expresses or implies the threat of serious penalties if the terms are not accepted.

Possibly, #1 is a fit, but #2 doesn't quite do it, because there is no serious penalty. I suppose, though, one could view NC as a serious penalty?

Maybe it does fit the definition! I dunno...

I think the way you phrase thinks can "spin" it as an ultimatum or not, depending on your level of tact.

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Today and yesterday WW and I have gotten along well. She invited me and DD to dinner with her grandmother and aunt tonight. It went well and at the end of the night, she showed me her cheek to give her a kiss on it... (Whatever that means)

Melody:

Dr. Harley's Plan B is like this, I believe. (It has been awhile since I read it over, although I ate it and breathed it like you all have too). The BS eliminates all possible contact and communication with the WS for the purposes of preserving whatever level of love is left in the BS's love banks. What this means to me is the BS says to the WS the following: You are not coming back to me at this time, but I love you anyway. I must separate from you and absolutely have no contact with you till you get tired of screwing the brains out of your OP. After you are done, I will be there for you and as long as I don't see it, I can still take you back since, "out of site is out of mind".

Now this is the layman's version the dearest doctor harley's plan. My view point is what led me to ad the 180 degree plan to Dr. Harley's plan. It is a form of fighting fire with fire. It instills the likelihood that the WS has finally got something to lose. BS's show weakness, or at least, I did. I became desperate to save my marriage. My desperate tears, weight loss, sleepless nights, poor work performance and the likes had ZERO impact on my FWW. In fact, she became more agressive to move out because she didn't want to see me suffer anymore....because she knew deep down it was her actions that caused my suffering and even suicidal thoughts.

It was my actions of exposure, the same thing that Gramm did, that disrupted Mickie and Minnie's romance and the threat of much more embarrassment that shook up the love affair. I told her what I was going to do and she would say, "if you do that, you will me forever". I did it and she hated me. I told her again what I was going to do, she threatened me again and I did what I said. I set the ground rules for further actions to happen against her and mr loverboy. Her affair was going to cause her humiliation, embarrassment, pain, suffering, and a huge price for her if it continued. My ULTIMADUM was simple, if you don't quit seeing the OM, I will ruin your reputation at work and with your family and friends and I will damage his carreer. I further said, "Your Christian front and your "do good" attitude at work will be shown to be nothing but a show and a fraud. I got to a point and I said in front of the MC, "You are at a crossroad in your life and it is time to make your choice. One road leads you to ****** with the pain and suffering that I will instill on you and your OM. The other road leads you to redemption and salvation. She was further afraid I would shoot him, because I told her I might, and warned me that he had a gun. (this was at the same time I felt suicidal right after DD) I told her that he nor her was worth spending one night in jail over let alone life in prison. If that is not part of the 180 program and if that is not part of Dr. harley's program, I missed the point completely.

I read several other books and read hundreds of articles. I will post a link for everyone to read that helped me step by step. I learned so much from Dr. Harley, the other books, and the BB's that I controoled the flow of conversation when we are at the MC. I made the MC address Dr. Harley's plans and she couldn't deny my (his) approach to my FWW's actions. I came to be able to predict what my FWW would do and why.

I was scared to death to lose my FWW and I was never certain how the marriage or the after math would end but we became a text book case. Dr. Harley teaches that human nature is human nature. We are simply predictable people. Education levels don't change a thing. Affair people fall in love and it feels good for them. They become confused and they become addicted to the OP the same as a heroin addict becomes addicted to the drugs. The BS must disrupt the flow of the addiction by exposure, since they can't do it themselves. Gramm's wife is weak and will lie to the end. Gramm is beat to the ground like a semi just ran over him, yet his job is to brush off the smashing, stand up tall, be the strong person, pretend like he is OK, help the WS come back one day at a time, and somehow not kill him or herself in the mean time because of the mental anguish and pain. The BS must rise above the fray and hold the hand of their loved one, dry their tears when they miss their lover, somehow keep the family together, be their best friend, take the hurtful words of the WS, and feel no reconnection from the WS due to the heavy fog the WS is in.

To Sum up part of my ramblings. The BS can fight fire with fire to some degree (180) for sanity purposes but with delacasy and balance. Prepare for a life with the WS but ready yourself for life without them at the same time. My handle reflects a level for me to never get too comfortable in my marriage and try and not take my FWW for granite.

I hope this post makes some sense to you all.

TooSoon

Gramm:



I think she is telling you that things are not going well for her with her OM and she is saying I have no where else to go but to come home. I am being very matter of fact but it is ok, and even necessary, for you to bring her back to help her rebuild your lives together.

Someone put the clothing line out called "NO FEAR". We need to put the clothing line out that says, "NO PRIDE". I accepted my dearest wife back against her real will and want and she fell back in love with me over time.

TooSoon

Good Link with great articles for infidelity:

http://www.surviving-infidelity-kit.com/

Toosoon

Thanks for all of that TooSoon...


That is exactly how I feel right now.

In my case, I DON'T know if there has been No Contact or not, but I DO know that they are broken up. for the past 2 months this relationship has been "Ending"... And there are other obvious signs that they are not "together"...
-She says that she wanted her CDs back from him, but didn't want to ask him herself.
-She wanted to avoid certain restaurants that they used to eat at
-She wanted to talk to one of OM's friends to clarify lies that OM had told about her
So, I'm not too worried about that stuff, BUT where does that leave us?

What freaks me out right now is that WW seems to be treating me like a "friend". I DO NOT want that, and I have told her so. BUT, being friendly is a start to getting things fixed, and that dividing line is really blurry.

Right now, I'm in her "withdrawal" stage, right? How long do I wait for this withdrawal?
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WW's aunt has been staying with her for a few weeks. Her take on this whole situation is that I just need to give WW time to sort herself out and that WW will soon set things right when she is ready. But that she, nor I nor anyone else can make WW realize the truth by talking about it...

Of course, being patient about these things is very difficult...

Read up on withdrawal on this web site by Dr. Harley. Get smart on this. Severe withdrawal will not last too long. Actually, your wife appears to have hit bottom in the withdrawal, with her saying she wants stuff back from OM and with her starting to be less combative with you.

Gramn, just like New Orleans...the flood waters will recede slowly. And as they do, damage will be shown and need to be repaired. This is not a sprint...it is a marathon.


Very true!! You can not educate a WS while in the fog. But you can speak truth when it is appropriate, and you can help GUIDE your wife to the people who can help her. Remember, she doesnt want to be educated by you. But she will by others. Make sure those others are people that are pro-marriage and can guide her in the right direction.


Patience is a gift from God. Ask for it...He will give it. Write in a journal, and then every two weeks, sit back and read where you have come from. Actually, you have a journal...this thread. Go back and read it. See how things have progressed...what changes have been made. How your wife is treating you differently.

If you do, I think you will find the patience and optimism that you seek.

In His arms.

Thanks MM...
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I just had an unplanned chat with WW.
She was complaining that she hadn't gotten her child support yet and wanted me to fix it. I said "I don't know where your money is, but they did take it from my check!".

Now she is changing her story...

She now says that she WILL NOT recconcile. She said I should sell our house. I told her that she should move home and she thought that was a crazy idea!

She is saying that she would only go to joint counciling to "help me cope"

And that she would only put the Divorce on hold "to give me time to put things into perspective"...

Then she was saying I was harassing her and "emotionally blackmailing her" by asking her to fix things!

I ended the conversation well though, by saying that I want her to TRY and fix this marriage. We may fail, but we deserve to TRY to make it work...

--------------------------
I don't know if this is "fog" or just her general attitude.
Before she ever met OM, she had been uninvested in our marriage for a long time. I have tried to meet her EM for about a year now...
This all seems pretty hopeless a lot of the time, but I am giving it my best effort...

Gramm -

Even if she is just going to counseling to help you "cope", get her there. There have been several people here that went for that, and they are happily back together.

I would stop the relationship talk. Sounds like it is becoming overwhelming for her.

Also set a date (10/31?)in your mind to re-evaluate this. It will help you to see the day to day progress that the two of you are making, and will give you a sense that this won't go on and on.

Believer- Good point.. although some people had advised me to do it, I think asking her to move home was too much for her. If I am going to do this, it will have to be in "baby steps".

"Come to counciling, no pressure!"

"Lets go to dinner"

Etc...

What you described looks to me like the leading edge of a full blown panic attack. If she's not having panic attacks, she may soon start.

Getting what you think you want during the affair is some really scary business ... because, it turns out, ~they~ are seldom really certain. This is why their babble is so confusing ... they are UNcertain about nearly everything in their lives

~in particular~

their ability to have a long-term healthy monagamous relationship.

sooooooooooo

as ~they~ cast off and set to PERMANENTLY leave behind their home environment, in particular their marriage .... all the while questioning their own ability to function as a healthy partner .... their anxiety rises and panic starts to set in. Usually voiced by ~anger~ because what they really want is to keep one foot in the marriage and try out a "maybe better" partner without losing anything.

Panic and anxiety fuels anger and irrational thinking. This is why it is such a roller-coaster. This is why the infidels are so UNhappy even when they appear to be getting just what they say they want ---> freedom.

Gramm:

You planted the seed for her to come home. My FWW didn't think she was even worthy for me to take her back and yours might be feeling somewhat the same. It is hard for them to think that they could do so wrong and still be loved by the person they hurt so bad. Our MC asked me how I could forgive and I said it was simply a choice I was making. Pepper said it well, they are confused right now.

I say she is still in contact with the OM and I think you need to call the OMW tell her that you feel there is still communication going on. It doesn't matter if she is or isn't but this will get back to your wife anyway. If it does get back to her, they likely in communication.

The rollercoaster ride is tuff and the undoing of a love affair is very painful and time consuming. Do not accept the words of your betraying wife to be honest and straightforward, expect her to lie to you at this time.

One day at a time.

TooSoon

I just grilled a dinner for WW, DD and the relatives.

WW was in a bad/depressed mood that had nothing to do with me. I am not sure if something bad happened with OM, or if she was just feeling especially depressed today.

Myself, I had one of my worst depressing days in a long time. I almost came home from work I felt so bad.

We are both hurting so much, but it's for different reasons. Very strange.

Tonight, WW (who has custody of DD this weekend), called and wanted to know if I would come over to play with DD. So, I did and got dinner too after we put DD to bed.

Did you play Barbies? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Gramn,

She is moving toward the light.

She wants you around when she is feeling so depressed. She feels safe with you. She is asking for your time and attention, disguised as time for you DD. If she only wanted you to spend time with your DD she could have dropped her off at your place and gone out. That giant step is beginning, go slow Gramn.

What ever you are doing keep doing it.

Gramm:

Don't think you screwed up by telling your WW she was welcome to move home. You are better off with her in the house than in an apartment.

She remains confused but she is allowing the reuniting to happen as exag pointed out. Asking her to move home prior to exposure and the OMW getting involved would have been useless with no impact. Timing is very right to open the door to your very mixed up WW.

Deep down she now knows she made a big mistake but her pride is weighing on her at the same time. You must not only welcome her back with open arms, but you must accept part of the blame for the deterioration of the marriage to allow the desire for the infidelity to have even happened. That will help her save some pride for her selfish actions. In time, she will feel and be remorseful but don't count on that to happen anytime soon.

Keep doing your good Plan A and don't be afraid to talk to her about rebuilding your family better than it was before. Waiting for some newfound magical moment to happen before you open your heart and house to her will do nothing since there are not any new magical moments coming. The magical moment has already happened. It was called exposure and it brought reality and the OMW into the fantasy affair, causing it to crumble. For all practical purposes, the OM has gone back to his wife but your WW and him are still emotionally connected. Encourage her to move home and make her adhere to strict NC rules and work towards her being radically honest with you.

I believe, in the end, you will be a MB success story in the end.

TooSoon

TooSoon, I wish I could believe what you are saying...

I spent today, again, with WW and DD. WW wasn't feeling well, so I helped her take care of DD a little bit. It was a nice enough time. WW gave me some lunch, I took DD to a playground, nothing too exciting.

But as I was getting ready to go, I mentioned that I loved her and that I wanted to fix things between us...

SHE FREAKED OUT!
I am apparently somehow "emotionally blackmailing her" by making her feel guilty...

Basically I got:
She doesn't love me
She has already tried and is no longer willing to try to work things out
She has NO intention of moving home
She has NO intention of putting the divorce on hold, (at least at this point)
She wants "space"...

So where does this leave me? Feeling like crap...