Orchid would be proud of you!!

Gramn - you are doing great!

far

Gramn-

You are doing a fantastic job!! She's confiding in you about the OM....this is GOOD!! And you listening without judging...very good also.

Mortar is right, you are doing far better than anyone I've ever seen on here, you are playing your cards right <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

-Caren

I'm doing my best, but it doesn't seem to be paying off yet.
Hopefully soon...

OK, here is an update, that does NOT make me feel that great...

Wife got a text message on her phone from OM today saying that he wanted to talk. (after almost two weeks of no contact)

According to Wife, he came to her apartment and she almost didn't want to let him in. But she did and they talked for a while. He said that he is "not sure" about his feelings and their relationship. She called to tell me about this visit at about 9:15, and filled me in.


So, in summary:
--It's good that she is confiding in me about this rather than lying (though her version might still be not entirely true)
--He is still around, but wishy-washy.
--She is getting to be confused about her feelings for him

There is not much I can do about him at this point. His wife seems to NOT be taking my calls, but she is (probably) working on their marriage.

I would leave a message for his wife. It sounds to me like he is a cake-eater. But the fact that your wife let you know this is amazing.

WW is also cake-eating. They certainly did more than talk at the apartment..She is not telling you the whole story...only what she needs to in order to eat her own cake....

Remember she is an alien WW..especially after contact with the OM....

Plan B may be coming soon.

What do you think, MM?

Oh I think the Plan B engines are warming up, especially since she is in contact with him. And like you said Mimi, Gramn has to figure that something more went on at her apartment than talking. Maybe it didnt, but it is best to assume that it did.

Now, Gramn...why are we talking about Plan B? Well, because she is cake eating. She still pines for the OM...and he has now shown up to keep her hanging...waiting for him to descide what he is going to do. And your wife will wait! And see him also.

But I want you to remember something here. Remember that he dumped her, right when things got worse. Inside, she does not forget that fact. She now knows that she cannot trust him to be there for her. He is forever tainted.

But, she cant let go yet of the fantasy that somethign will turn this all around. So, what to do?

Well, I think you need a little more Plan A. She is stringing you along also...that was done by her telling you about him talking to her. She is trying to keep you there, someone in her corner, as this guy does his thing and strings her along. I know it is highly disrespectful to you, but you have to see this as a good thing. She wont admit it, but she needs you.

So, a little more reliance on you, and then you will go Plan B.

Now, as the Plan B Czar, I can tell you that I LOVE Plan B! What will it do for your sitch? Well, first off...there is legal stuff pending. She just got your response last week and sees that you are serious. So, that is scary for her. A lot of unknowns for her. Ever since you exposed, she has begun to lose power over her life, day by day. And you have begun to gain power. She notices that, believe me!! That is why she has pushed so hard about the divorce stuff, and about the OM leaving his family and coming to her. Her life is spiralling downward.

So, with the Om not there for her, except maybe for some SF and to string her along...and you being there for her and showing her what could be...added to that, you beginning to take charge of the situation and fight for your marriage and your daughter...all of this is leading up to Plan B.

Plan B is the ULTIMATE in power redistribution. At this point, the BS takes ALL of the power over the marriage. The BS now decides how this marriage will continue, how or if it will continue to exist, and terms by which that marriage will exist. The WS cannot argue, cannot negotiate (that was Plan A), cannot demand a thing.

One huge reason why is that you will no longer be interacting with her. No talks. No being there for her. She is TOTALLY dependent on the OM at that point (and we have seen how he likes that, havent we?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />). She will try to negotiate contact ("We need to be able to talk, for the sake of our daughter...") but you will not budge. I actually had the kids with me when she left for her own apartment. I would have very minimal conversations concerning the kids. It would be just factual stuff ("I will be by at 7pm to pick them up to bring them home. Could you have their bags ready? The oldest has a baseball game Monday at 6pm.") All facts about the kids. No discussion with her how they are doing, just events, times, etc.

She is going to go ballistic when you do this. Well, not at first. At first, she will like it because she will think she can now pursue her relationship with Y-Guy full bore. And even if they do try, remember...he has shown what kind of guy he is. They have a relationship based on lies and fantasy. It cannot endure, and actually will fall apart rather quickly when Plan B is instituted. You see, you have been meeting some of her needs all along. You can meet all of them if she will allow you. The OM has no way of meeting all of her needs. Advantage: Gramn!

Now, for you. You get peace, you get quiet in Plan B. You dont have to do anything for your marriage. Well, you do. You have to start pickign up the pieces of your life, continue to protect your daughter, and generally start moving yourself back towards happiness. These are important if she decides to come back. Recovery is MUCH harder than Plan A or Plan B.

In Plan A, you have to constantly do things that dont feel good. In Plan B, you dont have to do those things.

So, start getting your Plan B ready. Write your Plan B letter and post it here to be vetted. Start planning out how you will do Plan B (like I had a second line put in at the house, with a distinctive ring. So, when my wife called that line, the kids knew it was her and they would answer. If she called my line, the standard order for her from me was her to leave a message. If I needed to respond, I would call and leave a response on her voicemail. Of course, she knew that if she tried to answer when I called, that I would hang up immediately and not leave the message. She learned very quickly that I was serious about no contact). But you plan out how to do yours, based on your sitch. How you will hand off your daughter to each other (intermediary??). How she can contact you about your daughter, and how you will contact her. How she can contact her daughter when daughter is with you...and vice versa.

Start getting it together. In the meantime, just keep Plan Aing. The time is coming shortly to Plan B. She and you have been textbook cases so far.

In His arms.

I'll have to think about this plan B stuff.

I talked to her this morning. She is pretty conflicted about OM at this point, but leaving their affair up to him.

-----------------------------------------
I am going on a business trip across the country this weekend. Tonight until Sunday night. WW and daughter will drop me off at the airport and pick me up.

------------------------------------------
There is more that I haven't told you people...

I AM letting WW take daugher on her trip. I know that you guys won't approve and you can yell at me, but I have already decided this. This was a tough decision and I consulted many people that I trust before making it. There are factors in this decision that I don't want to explain here, but I am confidant that WW won't steal our daughter or anything like that.

I hope you're right.....................

-Caren

This scares me for you and your daughter..especially after recent contact with the OM. There could be a plot....

Sorry....

If I screwed up, it will be on me, but I'm not worried. It came down to this...

Do I trust WW with our daughter?

I don't trust her with anything relating to OM or their affair, but I DO trust her with our daugher.

Gramn-

This is a decision that only you could make, but it has the potential to be disasterous.......how long is she supposed to be gone? Did you consult your lawyer?

I hope that your trust in your WW is well placed, WS are infamous for having screwy judgement.

-Caren

I want you to think about the legal aspect of this for a minute, Gramn. You are going to go into court and ask a judge to have your daughter placed under your care.

Why? Why should he do such a thing? Why are you the better parent for the child to be with? Why should a child that has been with her SAHM be taken away from her, and her Mom only get visitation?

Think about this for a sec, Gramn. Why is it you are seeking custody of your child???

If you think that you can trust her with your daughter, that she will be the good mother she was before the affair stuff happened, then why are you asking for custody?

You had better have answers for these questions...because the judge is looking for these answers.

And guess what? if you say in court that you dont trust her, that she has been a bad example for your daughter, that because of her irrational immoral behavior, that she can not be trusted with the care of your daughter fulltime, then...

Why would you let this woman take your daughter out of the country? The judge is going to see you say your wife is not the fit parent...and then see you say okie-dokie to yoru wife taking the child on a foreign trip. Once he sees that, then you will lose.

So, seriously now...what is the deal? Do you believe that you should have custody? Why? Why do you believe that she shouldnt have custody? If you believe she is still the same mother, then why would you want the judge to take your daughter away from her and you be the primary caregiver?

And if you believe that she should be with you because of your wife's trip to fogland...then why in the world would you undecut your legal standing by approving this trip.

In my case, I didnt approve ANYTHING!! My wife wanted to take the kids to Indiana to visit family. I said "No, not until after the court decides what the deal was." Why? Because first I didnt want her over state lines with the kids and have to fight extradition. And second, because I did believe that her irrational and immoral decisions showed me someone that I could not trust at the time with the fulltime care of our children. Thus, I didnt give in on anything like that. I wanted my decisions to not be interpreted that I an any way thought she could adequately care for those kids.

So what is it Gramn? Either your wife is a good mother despite the fact she cant make a good decision in the rest of her life...or she is a mess and cant be trusted with the day-to-day care of your daughter right now?

If it is the first, then no problem sendign them on the trip...and, you can save some money on court by not contesting custody.

if it is the second, then YOU are foggy by letting her go anywhere with that child. And you are seriously damaging your court case for custody.

In His arms.

For a while now I've not been convinced that Gramn really wants primary custody of his young DD. I think he can't imagine being burdoned with the responsibility of setting up daycare etc. Ideally, his WW could still be a SAHM...but that isn't realistic any more. I tend to think that custody is our idea for him and not his desire.

Maybe, if it is possible, 50/50 custody and a resignation to D is what Gramn would prefer.

What is the desire of your heart, Gramn? Do you have it in you to fight for custody and thus possible marital recovery? Or are you near conceding that you have lost; are already defeated?

I hope you get the true desires of your heart, whatever they may be. You sound resigned lots of times...like you've already lost or are very tired of the fight. Maybe it is just the way you write and I am reading you wrong. Lord knows that it is unlikely that folks can get to know who I am and get a full 'picture' of me by how I write.

Gramn..as with anyone else on this board we're going to call it like we see them. You have caved into her pressure and it severley damaged your case in court and your relationship with your WW. You have been had. Change your mind while you can....

Judges dont go for this. As our judge said, if a couple could do 50/50, then they wouldnt be having marital problems. No...someone is going to get primary physical custody. I agree that Gramn must decide what is best for his daughter. What I am saying is that his daughter will either be with him or his wife in a divorce. That is fact. Where his daughter ends up should be his consideration. If he thinks that his wife is only foggy in her love life, and the rest of her life is clear, then he can pursue the divorc and let his wife have primary custody. If he believes as I do, that a foggy wife cannot be a good mother while they are in the fog...then he MUST go for custody to protect his daughter.

That's why I have asked him...which is it?

In His arms.

Gramn,

If you want to try for custody of your child and have the opportunity to pull back and not let DD go out of the country with WW do so NOW! I do know the Courts in the state in which you live because I have practiced in them and can tell you that Mortarman's assessment is right on target. Are you listening to your attorney? Does he/she know what you have agreed? YOU NEED TO STOP THIS NOW - you are setting yourself up for ALOT of heartache. Remember, my attorney advised me - another attorney - NOT to give my WS the opportunity to take DS out of the country when he wanted to...You are NOT thinking straight here. You are trying desperately to gain favor with your WW and she's only looking out for herself.

Regards,

BB

I talked to OMW again over the weekend. I was hesitant to call her though, just because I'm so sick of dealing with this. She is onboard to try and save her marriage. OM has moved back into her house and (whether he really does it or not) has agreed to have No Contact with my WW. I'm sure that this will drag out a little more, but this affair is getting to be pretty much over.

Breaking up the affair is good BUT, where does that leave me?

I don't have clear answers to some of those questions asked above. What do I want as far as custody? I don't know what exactly. The main reason that I want to keep daughter away from WW is this affair. If it is over (or almost over) then I'm not as worried about that aspect.

I see MM's point about damaging my case... My lawyer never mentioned that. (And I did talk to him about this trip several times) Maybe he didn't think it would matter in that regard? I can't explain what my Attorney is thinking about regarding these things, but unless I really thought that my daughter would be "stolen" then he wasn't concerned.

And I AM getting really tired of all of this. I have broken up the Affair pretty well, but it does not seem to be helping my marriage.
WW continues to "take" in every way:
She is upset that I have not agreed to sell our house.
She is upset that I did not move out of the house so that she could live there with our daughter...
She is upset that I filed my papers saying that I do not want the divorce.

Do I want to fix this marriage? Usually I do. That is hard to say sometimes. Sometimes I do, but I do NOT want to put up with any more of her crap and sometimes I can't see a way out of that. It's not just some new "Fog" induced thing. She has been uninterested in working on our marriage for a long time. Even with the A totally over, I don't see her suddenly changing. She might decide that she wants to make things work, but that won't change her basic personality. Remember, I have been trying my hardest to work on this marriage very hard for a long time. I read "His Needs Her Needs" and tried to impliment that plan months before this affair started.

This temporary custody stuff is really annoying too. I tried everything I could to see if I could get temp custody if I filed first and all that, but both lawyers I talked to seemed to say that it was not possible as a working dad vs a SAHM. Maybe my lawyers are [email]CR@P[/email], but there are only so many choices in a town of this size.

For now, I'll continue gathering evidence and building a case, however it goes.

Gramn said: Even with the A totally over, I don't see her suddenly changing.

Remember, this whole process takes time, time, time. It's a marathon, not a sprint. The emotional separation between your W and you did not take place overnight. Neither will her feelings for you "gush" back into place.

It's a slow, tedious, uncertain process, at best.

Pace yourself, and expect this to take whatever time it takes to unfold.

JMHO
SD