I just got an email from WW, with a letter. I'm in plan B so I didn't respond, but see what you think:
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Dear Gramn
There are so many things I wish you could understand but I am trying to respect the fact that you are not ready to discuss them and that you need time away from me, even as a friend.
One of the main things I wish you would understand is that I do not consider the last five years of my life wasted, and I think you feel that. I am not just throwing them away, Gramn, I tried so hard to be happy, to feel that I needed to be where I was at the time and it was hard to come to the realization that I simply wasn’t and that no amount of trying was going to fix that. I never invested the time, effort, even money, thinking that it would be for nothing. I really was trying to make it work. There were times when I thought I could probably do it, that I could “tough it out”, but that’s not how I want to live my life, toughing it out.
I think we will always love each other in some way, and we will always miss certain things, I know I do and I should have told you that a while ago because I have a feeling you think I don’t. There will always be things that make me think of you in a good way, a great way. We have been great friends for several years now and we share DD. I hope we can continue to share in her life, together, because she deserves to have both her parents with her, even if it means we have to set aside our feelings towards each other when we do it. I know you don’t want to right now, but I hope we can be friends again, not the way we were, but in a whole new way.
I have wonderful memories of you and the time we spent together, you don’t seem to realize that either. Please do. I can tell you, you are a great person and I don’t ever want you to feel like you aren’t. My heart wasn’t into it and I was being dishonest and I just couldn’t do it any longer. You did everything you could, please believe that. There was nothing you didn’t do for me to try to make me happy and I will always be grateful to you for that, but I wanted you to stop, because it just wasn’t getting us anywhere. We have happy memories, all of which I intend to keep. You don’t just put things like that out of your head.
You and I have very different ideas of what makes a marriage work, and I think that’s one of the things that’s making this time so much harder for us. I know we need to stop trying to discuss it over and over again because we get nowhere when we do, but someday I hope we can talk about it and not end up fighting. It’s actually something we should have discussed before we got married, and we never did.
I didn’t give up Gramn, I faced the truth. That’s very different. It’s not easy, or convenient, or the quick solution, but it’s the truth and it was a hard thing to face. It had nothing to do with anyone else, because after all I was alone for 2 months and still didn’t go back. It causes me pain as well, although I know that I have caused you much more.
I wish so much that I could wipe away that pain that I have caused you. That’s why I’m telling you that I will respect the space you need, because I want so much for you to be happy. I am just not willing to do it by making myself go back to the life that made me unhappy. You shouldn’t have to change who you are, it’s not fair to you, just as it’s not fair to me to have to pretend that I am happy when I’m not, or to try to fix something that I don’t want to fix any longer.
The other day I was going through my night table and found something that disturbed me quite a bit. There were all sorts of cards and notes, but they were all apologies. I’ve thought about that a lot, and they were dated anywhere between the time I was pregnant to a few months ago. Apologies. I’m sure you have them too, I know I have been far from exemplary, but I was just going through my stuff and not yours, of course, so I wouldn’t have the ones I wrote.
It wasn’t about our lifestyle, or the things we had or didn’t have, it was about the person I had become. I didn’t like who I was anymore, I had turned into this irritable, hot-tempered grump all the time, never satisfied, never content, always in a bad mood, always bitching about something. I was ashamed of how I acted with you, and a lot of times around DD too. I carry that shame around with me but at least it doesn’t come out as much anymore. It used to come out all the time, I’d find myself picking fights just for the heck of it and overreacting over everything.
I don’t agree that I am taking everything from you. You have an entire life ahead and only you can choose to move on with it or not. You will grow professionally and spiritually, I’m sure; and if you allow yourself, I am sure you’ll find a relationship with someone who will adore you and who will hopefully love our little girl to the point where she can be a positive influence in DD’s life. There is so much more out there Gramn.
We have a daughter together and I love her more than anything in the world. I can never ignore that you are her father and I will never try to replace you in her life. She has a wonderful daddy that she is simply crazy about and I will not take that away from her, but please don’t try to isolate her from me either. Please don’t lead her to believe that she doesn’t have a normal family, like you said once. She senses so much already and she needs to know that no matter what happens between us, she will always have a family that loves her, and we are it.
It is up to us to make sure that she comes out of this successfully, even if it’s not the conventional way. We can do it, I am sure of it, it’s just going to take some time; but it scares me that you might not think we can. Whenever you’re ready, I’d like to talk about these things, we will be in each other’s lives for at least the next 16 years and we need to be able to plan for that and talk to each other like civilized human beings.
I hope you get what you are looking for out of this time you are taking. I’m still here and so is DD. I want you to be ok, better than ok, and I know you’re now making an effort to move on, which is good. If what you need is for me to stay away while you do it, then I will; but please don’t put DD in the middle, just always remember that she’s not the one who should pay for anything that has happened between us.
Talk to me the day you are ready.

I love how she blames you for putting dd in the middle of this.

Okay...here is my gut response...

On first thought, i would want to send an email back, with the PBL attached, stating that our conversations will continue WHEN she comes back to the marriage. if she doesnt come back, then there wont be conversations. The second thing I would say is that Gramn and DD are still family...and maintaining the family that Mrs. Gramn has left. No, there is no family that includes Mr. Gramn, Mrs. Gramn and daughter if she divorces him. He and daughter will be family. Her mother and her will be family.

This is cake eating at its finest. What I just wrote would be the gut reaction I would have to this...but guess what? You are in Plan B...so the ONLY response yo uare allowed is either emailing the PBL again...or no response at all.

Now Gramn...while I KNOW this all hurts and makes it look like its over, please believe my wife tried the same worn out statements. About how the past wasnt so bad (even though in the middle of the affair, there was NOTHING right with our past). About how we need to be "family" for the kids. About how she still loves me and wants the best for me...and I will find it out there. Oh so caring and benevolent, right?

WRONG! Nothing caring about this email. She doesnt care for your daughter, your family or for you. This letter is justification for her ending things. It is her trying to get you to eat cake at some point. She can now feel like she can go forward with this all, and that you will come around and be "family" at some point.

One more note...this is also a legal move, and itt would not surprise me if her attorney was behind it some. You see, if she sends this and then you send something nasty back or whatever, then she will look like the person trying to meet in the "middle"...only out for the good of everyone. Blleeeccch! This is why I say...send a copy of PBL if you want. But no other reply. No other comment. No interaction with her at all. You pick up daughter and she starts talking, just pretend like she is speaking Russian and you dont understand it. Just move on with your day.

Gramn, she is trying to coax you into helping her end things and normalize her immoral behavior. It is that plain and simple!

Please just print the email to give to yoru attorney (so he will be aware of it) and then delete it out of your head. It doesnt mean anything if you will jsut let it go.

Believe me, if you ignore it and stay dark, odds are she will try again. She will not like you not responding to her "generosity." She will try other ways.

But if you respond...if after this letter, you break total darkness, then you will deal your marriage a very serious blow. Because with a response at this stage in the game, or with contact after this, you will show that you will come around to her way of thinking. And she will believe that she can continue...and you will "catch up" at some point.

Dont do it Gramn!! Dont you do it. This is a selfish WW trying to get it all. Give her nothing. Stay on course. Trust the Lord.

In His arms.

MM, you're right on the money...and the odds are that Gramn's wife doesn't even realize that this is a selfish move...she probably feels that she's being loving and caring and trying to share with Gramn...when the reality is she's still trying to set things up so that she gets what SHE wants out of this.

Gramn:

I had 2 log in and unlurk for this. As you know, I'm not a fan of plan B. But I will say that your non-response was exactly the right thing 2 do regarding this letter from your WW. More importantly, you need 2 continue 2 "not respond" 2 it when she tries 2 get a response out of you over some excuse like she's done recently.

She may or may not be cracking. You may or may not be receptive 2 reconciliation if/when she ever asks for it.

But there are a few things she's said - all of them typical of fog-bound WSs - that I want 2 comment on:

"I tried so hard to be happy, to feel that I needed to be where I was at the time and it was hard to come to the realization that I simply wasn’t and that no amount of trying was going to fix that."

Your W isn't at a "place" in her own spiri2al growth that she can realize that her happiness is her own responsibility - always was and always will be. And that RESPONSIBILITY and ACCOUNTABILITY for one's choices is liberating, not cripling. Her happiness will come only when she can clear her conscience. No person, you or some OM, can provide her with happiness. And living a lie, in particular, with smoking remnants of broken families in her wake, will never make her happy.

"I really was trying to make it work. There were times when I thought I could probably do it, that I could “tough it out”, but that’s not how I want to live my life, toughing it out."

Again, she can't realize this in her current state of entitlement, but she's wrong, as you well know. She couldn't possibly "try 2 make it work" while leading a double life.

"We have been great friends for several years now and we share DD. I hope we can continue to share in her life, together, because she deserves to have both her parents with her, even if it means we have to set aside our feelings towards each other when we do it."

Not surprising from a WS. She doesn't want 2 get off her fence. You may have been great friends in the past, but you aren't now (and maybe never can be again, if this current si2ation is never resolved). Friends don't do what she and the OM have done 2 your families.

But it is certainly true that you'll forever be your DD's parents, and you'll have 2 find a way 2 make parenting work for her. But as YOU are learning, it's possible 2 be a parent without communicating with the other parent. Your WW is starting 2 realize this, I think, and she's not liking it very much. Hence this letter.

"I know you don’t want to right now, but I hope we can be friends again, not the way we were, but in a whole new way."

You'd have 2 subscribe 2 her revisionist his2ry, and accept her decrepit morality, in order for this particular fantasy fu2re 2 come 2 fruition. You're better than that, and perhaps someday she will be 2.

"I have wonderful memories of you and the time we spent together, you don’t seem to realize that either. Please do. I can tell you, you are a great person and I don’t ever want you to feel like you aren’t."

Statements like this are best handled with silence. She's making assumptions about what you're going through and thinking because she has nothing 2 build her house of cards on. Let her assume (because you know what that word means, don't you?).

"My heart wasn’t into it and I was being dishonest and I just couldn’t do it any longer. You did everything you could, please believe that."

And you're in plan B now precisely because you HAVE done all you could and she IS CONTINUING 2 be dishonest and amoral.

"We have happy memories, all of which I intend to keep. You don’t just put things like that out of your head."

Ac2ally, she's wrong, and she'll be more wrong with time and distance. I find it ac2ally takes a conscious effort on my part 2 KEEP the fond memories of the happy parts of our past in my own mind. But enough about me...

"You and I have very different ideas of what makes a marriage work, and I think that’s one of the things that’s making this time so much harder for us."

She means "harder for ME". But you know that, right?

"I know we need to stop trying to discuss it over and over again because we get nowhere when we do, but someday I hope we can talk about it and not end up fighting."

In 20 years, perhaps?

"It’s actually something we should have discussed before we got married, and we never did."

Any decent counselor will tell you that this is THE problem with ALL marriages - they require maintenance, particularly in the long term, but newbies believe that the romance should be self-sustaining indefinitely "happily ever after". It never was the case. It always requires vigilance in thought.

"I didn’t give up Gramn, I faced the truth. That’s very different. It’s not easy, or convenient, or the quick solution, but it’s the truth and it was a hard thing to face. It had nothing to do with anyone else, because after all I was alone for 2 months and still didn’t go back. It causes me pain as well, although I know that I have caused you much more."

Revisionism. This makes no sense, even with what little I know of the timing of your sitch. 2 months is nothing.

"I wish so much that I could wipe away that pain that I have caused you. That’s why I’m telling you that I will respect the space you need, because I want so much for you to be happy."

Truth is, only you can wipe away things you feel that you'd rather not feel. By running plan B, you're taking a stand for yourself and your DD. You're refusing 2 relinquish control over your fu2ure, your morals, and your integrity. You're setting your best example for your DD, certainly, but you're also setting one for your WW. But it is entirely up 2 her whether she'll be receptive or not. Or whether it'll matter 2 you in the long run or not.

"I am just not willing to do it by making myself go back to the life that made me unhappy."

And she won't be able 2 come back 2 the marriage until (if ever) she recognizes that her unhappiness was entirely self-inflicted.

"You shouldn’t have to change who you are, it’s not fair to you, just as it’s not fair to me to have to pretend that I am happy when I’m not, or to try to fix something that I don’t want to fix any longer."

I think it was JL who once said something 2 the effect that you aren't changing who you are with plan A and B, you're changing your perspective view of the world and the people around you. It might LOOK like you're changing 2 the uninitiated, though.

"The other day I was going through my night table and found something that disturbed me quite a bit. There were all sorts of cards and notes, but they were all apologies. I’ve thought about that a lot, and they were dated anywhere between the time I was pregnant to a few months ago. Apologies."

Hm... reminds me of something a friend of mine said 2 me when I was engaged 2 my W, but having doubts about whether we should marry or not. He said "If you have any doubts, you shouldn't get married." Doubts? I'm still full of them. They keep me on my toes. What about my friend? He had no doubts, got married 2 a gal he'd spent 5 weeks with at a summer church activity (and many hundreds of hours on the phone afterwards), and within a month, the marriage was annulled.

Love is very much having 2 say you're sorry, especially when it's called for. Life is hard.

"I know I have been far from exemplary"

Indeed.

"It wasn’t about our lifestyle, or the things we had or didn’t have, it was about the person I had become. I didn’t like who I was anymore, I had turned into this irritable, hot-tempered grump all the time, never satisfied, never content, always in a bad mood, always bitching about something. I was ashamed of how I acted with you, and a lot of times around DD too. I carry that shame around with me but at least it doesn’t come out as much anymore. It used to come out all the time, I’d find myself picking fights just for the heck of it and overreacting over everything."

And, once again, until she can see that she is solely responsible for her REACTIONS 2 her PERCEPTIONS of the things and people around her, she'll keep doing these things.

"I don’t agree that I am taking everything from you."

No, she just gave herself away 2 someone else who was similarly unavailable but greedy.

"You have an entire life ahead and only you can choose to move on with it or not. You will grow professionally and spiritually, I’m sure;"

As are we, Gramn.

"and if you allow yourself, I am sure you’ll find a relationship with someone who will adore you and who will hopefully love our little girl to the point where she can be a positive influence in DD’s life. There is so much more out there Gramn."

Maybe someone 2 replace your WW in your DD's life? She'd better think about this. And yep, there IS a lot out there. But so what if we don't experience it ALL? So what if we don't "have" every attractive OP we can get our hands on? People who believe that another person can MAKE us happy will forever be disappointed in life.

"please don’t try to isolate her from me either."

She can't believe this. You're not isolating your DD from her.

"Please don’t lead her to believe that she doesn’t have a normal family, like you said once. She senses so much already and she needs to know that no matter what happens between us, she will always have a family that loves her, and we are it."

I'm glad that her parents are committed 2 always love her and be her parents. But no, you don't have a normal family. You never will without reconciliation. You were stating the simple truth. Painful, perhaps, but true.

"Whenever you’re ready, I’d like to talk about these things, we will be in each other’s lives for at least the next 16 years and we need to be able to plan for that and talk to each other like civilized human beings."

So. What if you're not "ready" for 16 years?

"I hope you get what you are looking for out of this time you are taking."

We here know that you will get what you need out of this time. Even though I don't "believe in" plan B, for me.

"If what you need is for me to stay away while you do it, then I will;"

Most excellent!

"Talk to me the day you are ready."

Like October 25, 2021, perhaps?

-2long (back 2 lurkdom)

Thanks Owl...they dont call me the Plan B Czar for nothing!!

Seriously though, once Gramn went to Plan B (or has tried going to Plan B), I have tried to impart on him the seriousness of the situation. While I love Plan B...Plan B is also dangerous. Dr. Harley even says so. Plan B could push the WS to end the marriage. In some cases that happens no matter what the BS does. In others, it happens because the BS screwed up and enabled the WS to end the marriage.

I love Plan B because all the power goes back to the BS. All of it. The BS no longer has to negotiate anything. The BS sets ALL terms on EVERYTHING! I love it because the marriage being saved is better odds than the OP and WS being together. Sure it is a risk...but Mrs. Gramn has already moved out, filed for divorce and seeing OM. So how much more is there to risk? My wife had moved out, was seeing OM, and had field for divorce...when we showed up in court for a custody hearing and I got physical custody of the kids. It was that event that the Lord used to wake her up (that as well as me having her declared spiritually dead by the church 4 days before that hearing). Two weeks later, we moved back in together...and I have to admit that she and I are spending a lot of quality time together. A lot of hand holding, etc.

But if I had gone along with her, if I had bent my boundaries...if I had given up and onle seen defeat, my wife would not be next to me everynight now. She wouldnt. We would be divorced.

So, it is that dangerous and that serious. But the good news is that Gramn is following the Lord (always a good place to be) and his wife isnt (a very bad place to be). And the good news is Gramn has all the power now. I just wish he would use it, stay dark (which is a huge part of that power) and stay on plan.

No guarantees here, Gramn. But your wife still has not deviated one bit from other WS that I know of (including my own)...ones that are now FWSs.

In His arms.

Ahhh, my fiend 2Long speaks.

Gramn, he isnt a fan of Plan B. He said that. But read what he said closely. He is dead on!

In His arms.

Gramn, I don't think I have ever posted to you before - you are all ready getting such great help here!
I just wanted to add my own 2 cents here. this stament of hers, in particular:


Is crap. I am pretty sure that she just borrowed it from my WxH. What is that supposed to mean anyway? My x said these same things like "I thought I could tough it out, but I just couldn't, I tried to stay for the kdis, I tried to convince myself that I could do it. In other words, being married to me was something he tried to endure? A slow torture? I was not the perfect wife, but our relationship was far from some type of slow torture.

Lets change some of these statements to read: in the beginning of our M there was a lot of fun, and excitement, and I loved the drama. It made me giddy. Now that we have a nice, normal life, without the drama of a new relationship, I want to abandon you, and I actually don't care how much damage it does to our DD.

This whole line about some day being friends is crap. I think that the WS truly belives that they can walk away, and some day "when everything blows over" you will be friends, and they can lean on you for help, they will call you whenever they feel like it, and basically expect you to to be part of their support system, but they don't want to have a commitment with you that says "I will, likewise be there to support you as well" It doesn't work.

That is what I like about Plan B. She needs to see the reality of what life will be like post divorce. In your posts, the one thing that I keep thinking to myself, is that your W is very immature in her thinking. She does not really understand the reality of d. That kids don't just "adjust", that former spouses do not make good friends, and that this is not just a high school romance that she can "break up" with one boy, and tomorrow it is ok to hold hands with someone new. She needs a big reality check. Plan B can do that for her.

Frankly, I'd like to shake her until her teeth fall out, but thats just me....

Thanks for all of the replies people.
As I said, I won't give her a reply about this. Nearly everything in here we've already talked about anyway, in some form or other.

I have long said that I don't expect or want her to "pretend" to be happy, for example, but I also know now that even without a Plan B, these talks got me nowhere. Her thinking is so foreign to me, that I can't reason with her. If I was trying to prove 3+3=6 she would swear that it equals 8.

SO, I'm left feeling crappy and depressed as usual. I'm struggling w this no contact stuff. And the one person I would normally talk about everything with is the one person who I don't want to contact.

2 Long posted about the "happiness" thing a couple times. This is one of the key issues to me. Before I ever met her, she had problems being depressed. When I met her she was in a demanding job that made her feel bad. And now she seems to be blaming me for her unhappiness. As it was said above, you've got to make your own happiness. OM or I or anyone else can't make her happy.

Oh, and one last thing.. after she said all that about respecting my space and all that, she has called me at least 4 or 5 times today. I want to find a way to send her calls directly to voicemail. I don't know if that is possible, but it would be cool...

As I was writing a long post to you about not answering, you beat me to the punch. Good, I am happy you did not respond to her.

"she has called me at least 4 or 5 times today."

Did you talk to her?

"I want to find a way to send her calls directly to voicemail. I don't know if that is possible>"

I don't understand why you can't get a $15 dollars answering machine to screen your calls. I have one.

Gramn -

You will very likely get many of these same messages from your wife. She is probably feeling guilty and writes to try to excuse herself. I made the mistake of discussing my WH's letters (I have a whole pile of them) with him. It is just a waste of effort and time.

Stay dark.

But you do need to be taking care of you, and getting out and about.

Well, what does this tell you Gramn? doesnt it speak to the fact that she is still in the fog? Isnt irrational thoughts the bread and butter of fog speak? So, this says that she is still making decisins based on fog...which is still good news for your marriage because if she was leaving and thinking rationally...this marriage would already be over. But instead, she still is the prototypical WS.


I wont lie to you...it sucks. I felt the same things. Withdrawal. Loss of control (or so I thought). All of it. This is normal Gramn. If it gets too overwhelming, go get some meds fro mthe Doc (I did and used them for about 3 months...all the way thru Plan B and early recovery). But just stay on point...things will get better.


While true...there is one thing we must understand...God does not promise happiness. Shoot, our Constitution only promises that we have a right to "pursue" happiness. Not reach it. God does promise joy, though. And they are different. If your wife is looking for someone to keep her happy (including herself), she will be failed everytime. But for now...she will continue to try to find happiness. sad that she will never find it the way she is heading.


Okay, I am reading between the lines here but it appears you talked to her. Please tell me I am wrong. Please tell me I am wrong. I dont care what the reason is. If she surprised you at work, you just hang up without sayign a word. Same thing at home. Gramn, this isnt hard. You answer because you want to answer. thus continuing your withdrawal and allowing her to get fed her fix from you. Everytime you talk to her, this whole thing starts over again. It is as if you havent done a thing before now and are starting over. So, please tell me you did not talk to her!! Cause as I said in my post previously, after that email, you will severely endanger your marriage if you give in now.

In His arms.

Basically this whole time, I have only talked to her about vital things concerning DD. IF she calls and says "I'll be there to pick her up at 8" I'll say "fine" and hang up.

When I'm the one whos going to show up somewhere, I can leave a text message telling her, but is that really any better?

I'm not greeting WW or discussing anything with her. When she shows up to get DD, I have everything ready and have said my goodbyes to get rid of WW quickly. So, if WW says "where is her bag" I'll give it to her without saying anythng and get her on her way.

Now, maybe I'm doing this "wrong" but what else can I do?

All sorts of thing come up that require us to plan or reach deicisions that involve our daughter. (Currently it's Haloween plans) Sure, most of that can be done by email or whatever, but how is the logistical communication in an email or voicemail any less of a communicaiton? I don't respond to things about what we can do to make DD's costume better or what I think of her various party plans.

As a parent, there are some things that I can't get around. Recently DD fell and bumped her head. WW called to tell me that she was hurt. How am I supposed to handle something like that?

This thing is driving me nuts!

Gramm, when you get ready to go into Plan B, instead of Plan "A," [appeasement] I am sure you will figure it out. But, this is nothing close to Plan B and just ruins your opportunity to yank her off the fence. She is able to talk to you whenever she chooses, which is exactly how she wants it. She is driving the ship unfortunately.

See, this attitude is what I don't get! She is NOT able to talk to me. Why do you think she had to write me that letter? Because I won't talk to her about this stuff!
Remember when I said she came over sunday and tried to talk about stuff? I just said to DD, "lets go play in the other room."

If there is some logistical thing concerning my daughter, we have to communicate. (either by phone, email, note or whatever) Other than that, I have said nothing.

If I had any money or credit, I'd like to get Dr. Harley's take on all this. I don't think it's as black and white as you seem to think.

The routine stuff, like taking DD back and fourth to Daycare, require NO communication. When one of us has her and there is no switching, we talk to HER by phone a couple times a day. When We have to pick her up or drop her off, I just do it and move on.
THAT STUFF is all easy.

BUT life is not always so straight forward. There are lots of special occasions coming up and there are always illnesses, minor emergencies or times we are just running late. Some of these can be communicated through email or text messages, and I HATE text messages! W(riting on my phone's tiny buttons just annoys me..) But these methods are still COMMUNICATION which is unavoidable.

Is this Plan B more of just an arbitrary line in the sand that I will not cross? A literal "code of silence" that is not about breaking off communication as much as it's about not TALKING?

And don't assume it will just "come to me".
I'm frustrated with all of this. I'm trying to do a good job, and I'm "doing it wrong?"

Gramm, I see you talking to her several times a day, whenever the spirit moves her. She calls you with DD "bumped her head." You answer. She calls you with this nonsense: ""I'll be there to pick her up at 8" I'll say "fine" and hang up." And you answer.

Even when you have pre-established plans you CONTINUE to talk to her about it. WHY?

The point of Plan B is to cut off ALL contact, not to give your WW the cold shoulder when she does call over every little thing. Her calls should not be answered. NO CONTACT MEANS NO CONTACT. If she has an emergency, which is NOT DD bumped her head, she can call the ambulance and then call you, but all these communications are entirely unneccessary and DEFEAT THE PURPOSE of Plan B.

First off, injury or illness to your daughter is always okay for contact. That is injury or illness that is serious...not a little cut or a cold. If your daughter falls down with you and scrapes her knee...you do not call your wife. you just log it into the journal I suggested you pass between you and your wife. That's it.

Halloween costume. Hhuummmm?!?! The right answer in Plan B is that your wife can make all the plans she wants concerning a Halloween costume. And so can you. Why do you need to do it with her? Who has her on Halloween? If it is you, then take your daughter and go get a costume. Why does your wife need to be involved. If she is to have her on Halloween, then just let your wife get the costume and be done with it. I know this sucks, Gramn.

But how are you going to handle her birthday? Christmas? Thanksgiving? Your wife will want to open presents as a "family." She will want to have her birthday party together as a "family." NOT IN PLAN B!

When I was in Plan B, Christmas came. So did my youngest son's birthday. I had just gone to Plan B on December 17th. Wife left shortly after that for Florida for 4 days to meet OM's family...right up until Christmas Eve. She came back expecting to combine presents that I purchased and she purchased. She planned on bringing her presents to our house and having the traditional Christmas. She came back and left a message that she would be over in the morning. I told her via voicemail not to come, that she could pick the kids up at noon to take to her place to open her presents. Man, she was ticked off! She called several times unloading on me. Kept saying that it should be about the kids (it was about the kids...that was why I was doing what I was doing...trying to save their family). So, she went ballistic...called work and scheduled herself to work on Christmas. My kids didnt see her until the next day.

Three days later was my son's 5th birthday. They had come back to me because my wife was working and she was done with her visitation. Well, she calls right before she got off work on my cell phone and leaves a message, askign my youngest to call her so she could say "Happy Birthday." At that point, we had just gotten to Chuck E. Cheese. So, I gave him the phone and had him call his Mom. Well, about an hour later as we were wrapping things up...my wife shows up there. My son had told her where we were and she took it upon herself to show up. She came over and sat down and began tryign to talk to the kids. After a minute of that, I sent the kids to cash in their tickets. Five minutes later, the kids and I left. I did not say a word to my wife, except concerning my oldest son. Not one. As you know, my wife is a nurse. My oldest son was beginning to have a fever while we were there, so when my wife got there and saw that he was getting sick, she said she would take him back over to her hospital to have him evaluated. I told her "no, I will take care of it." And we left. I called a friend of mine and his wife...his wife came over and watched the two kids...and I took the oldest to the ER and had him evaluated.

Do you see? In Plan B, you treat this woman as the alien she is! She no longer gets treated like your wife. She has NO say, and no control...outside of what the law says. Shoot...if it werent for the law, she wouldnt get any say at all!!

I know you are frustrated. But you are trying to treat her like she wants you to treat her. As a "family" and co-parent together. But it dont work that way...not unless you want the divorce and want the OM raising your daughter half the time. If you do, then co-parenting is for you!

What she needs to understand is that if things didnt end badly...they wouldnt end. That you are kepping the family together...she is destroying it. As such, she has no right to speak for how the family will function. She can have her own "family" where she is at...but it is not the family the two of you built.

You must remember this distinction. Your wife left and walked out on your family...on your daughter's family. dont let her normalize the immoral. If the person doing this to yo uand your daughter wasnt your wife, you would deal with them severely, would you not? Well, this woman is not yoru wife right now. She is an alien and you are supposed to be in Plan B. Treat her that way.

It is the only way possible that you might see your wife again.

In His arms.

Gramm, why don't you get an answering machine?

I know you are working hard on this, but we want you to have the best chance of recovering your M. Thus, we push you a little. We are on your side, and we know that you can do better!

Melody: The pre-esetablished stuff is easy to deal with. When I am saying things about her calling to say she is coming, maybe I didn't explain. I'm saying that in situations where we haven't been able to establish a predetermined plan or we don't agree, that is where I am having problems w no contact.

Here is a current example: I plan to take DD trick or treating tomorrow night and told WW in a message that is my intent. Our current "official" arrangment is vague about situations like this. WW indicated this is fine with her. BUT the the specifics have not been worked out.

MM: My Mom and I made a costume for DD. WW was not involved and had no say in it. She was not pleased by that, but that is not my problem.

I DO understand what you are saying about contact only for MAJOR problems only. That should be obvious.

UVA: I only use my cell, not a home phone.

Okay. Fair enough. But your plan needs to deal with the unplanned things. If you dont agree, then do it your way. If there are no plans outlined thru the court and your mutual agreement before Plan B, then do it your way. What is the problem with that? Do it your way. She has no say when daughter is with you. None. Any contact by her should be met with a dial tone...or your voicemail. And no response. I really got good at this...to the point that we went three weeks...with trading kids and everything...with me only sending ONE voicemail. And that had to do with a homework paper my daughter had left at her apartment and she needed for school. So I told her I would be by at a time where I knew she wasnt working. I dint ask her to come by. I told her I would be by and send daughter in to get the paper. You see, if you break these things down...you will see that almost everyone of these issues doesnt need your wife involved in them.


The official arrangement is that your wife is in adultery, she has moved out on your family...and has filed for divorce. And also...you are in Plan B. She has no say for Halloween. None. Unless daughter is to be with her on Halloween, and then she can do whatever she likes with your daughter when she has her. But if the official custody arrangements that have been worked out say that your daughter is with you on Halloween, then there should be no negotiations. Zero. Say this over and over again Gramn...she has lost her right to have a say in the matters of your family while the family is together. She can have a say on what daughter does when she is with her...but she has no say over ANYTHING this family does. You have got to get this Gramn. No contact. No negotiations. Just live your life and run your family. Right now, your wife is "dead." You have to do this on your won. Maybe the alien will die off and your wife will be resurrected. but until that happens, you are on your own. Stop including this alien in your plans or worrying about what she wants or needs. SHE HAS NO SAY! Dont you see? Her reaction to the Halloween costume you, your mother and daughter did is just the tip of the iceberg. This is the reaction she needs to continually have in Plan B. It is reality slamming her in the head. She NEEDS that...and you are protecting her from it.


This is why you need to be independent and ignore her requests. Do things your way. It will irritate her to no end. That is the good part of Plan B. She wants happiness, but jsut cant find it. You wont cooperate. So, stop cooperating.


A MAJOR problem is daughter is rushed to ER. That is pretty much it. Everything else is i nthe category of minor problems. And all of those...you handle alone! No help from her. No involving her.

In His arms.