Hang in there Gramm. This won't last much longer. The Harley's say the worst of withdrawal takes place the first month or so.

I know it is miserable to hear her say she loves him and he broke her heart (PUKE), but just keep up your mantra that you want your family.

When she gets out of the fog, she will be very remorseful.

Gramn, you are so close. Hang in there. One day she will feel like a fool for what she said.

All a part of the process. It sucks. But we told you it was coming. She has to go thru this. Your marriage waits on the other side. So, all of this pain and mess will be worth it in the end. I promise.

In His arms.

Gramm - I know you have read this before, but just wanted to post it, so that you know you ARE on the path to recovery.

But because most affairs do not end with a choice to permanently separate from a lover, the recovery stage does not usually begin with much zeal. Instead, it begins with bitterness. If the affair dies a natural death (the spouse and lover simply drift away, or the lover ends it), the unfaithful spouse wakes up to find himself or herself still married, but married to a spouse who is very upset about everything that happened. How does one go about getting that kind of marriage restored?

It's very common for the spouse having the affair to feel unremorseful. And it's common for the victimized spouse to feel that it wasn't his or her fault, either. So when an affair has ended, and a couple is ready to rebuild their relationship, neither wants to take responsibility. They both look at each other as having been very selfish, and they look at themselves as having gone the extra mile, with nothing to show for it. Why apologize for something that was the other person's fault?

There is a sense in which an apology is not really necessary. The only thing that's necessary is for the couple to take appropriate steps to rebuild their relationship. But an apology can certainly make taking those steps much easier.

S.C.'s wife is not sorry she had an affair. In fact she feels that it did her some good. She "finally did something for herself." That sure sounds like her Taker, doesn't it (if you don't know what a "Taker" is, be sure to read "The Giver and the Taker" in my Basic Concepts). Her Taker is only concerned about her happiness, and not the least bit concerned about S.C.'s happiness. It was her Taker that was doing the talking for her, telling S.C. that he had it coming, after what he had put her through with all of his drinking.

Taker's don't ever apologize. But they demand it of others. It was S.C.'s Taker that wanted an apology from his wife. It remembered that S.C.'s Giver had once told his wife he was sorry for his neglect of her while he was drinking, and now it was time for his wife to apologize for her offense. But at this point in their relationship, neither of their Givers are anywhere to be found, so there is little hope for repentance.

But now that the affair is over, does it do S.C. any good to try to pry an apology out of his wife? At this point, her feelings for S.C. are not the best, and any effort on his part to try to make her feel guilty will do nothing but withdraw more love units from an already bankrupt Love Bank. His best approach is to ignore the past, and focus on what he can do to start depositing love units. The more love units he deposits, the more her Taker will drop back and allow her Giver some room to maneuver. In fact, if her Giver shows up, she may surprise S.C. with an apology for the affair without him even asking for one.

S.C.'s best course of action is to create the best marriage possible by learning how to meet his wife's emotional needs, overcome Love Busters and create a unified lifestyle where neither of them would have second secret lives that can grow into affairs.

But in spite of what I've just said, I encourage each spouse, if possible, to override their Takers' instincts and apologize to the other anyway. The unfaithful spouse should apologize for having betrayed a valuable trust, for having hurt in the worst way possible the very one he or she promised to love and cherish. The victimized spouse should also apologize for having failed to meet important emotional needs that the unfaithful spouse had been promised at the time of marriage.

Why do I encourage an apology when the Takers are adamantly opposed to offering them? Because an apology is really in order (they did, in fact, hurt each other), and it also helps settle down the Takers, as long as they both apologize. S.C.'s wife knows that she did the wrong thing when she had an affair. It's her defensive Taker that will not let her apologize. But if she could let her defenses down for one moment and honesty express her Giver's regret for what she had done, it would give S.C. some encouragement.

But once apologies are made, a couple should move on to the business of rebuilding their relationship, and not dwell on the mistakes of their past. As much as you may want to talk about the affair or about any other mistake made, remember that every conversation on those subjects withdraw love units. And a Love Bank must first be overflowing with love units before you are in a position to waste any.

In C.W.'s case, he is close to having traversed the first two stages of marital recovery after an affair. He has completed the first stage by being completely separated from his lover, and he is near the end of the second stage where he is coming to the end of withdrawal from his dependence on her. Granted, he is still depressed, but part of his depression comes from living alone, and having a feeling of hopelessness trying to get his wife's cooperation to restore their marriage.

I think that both couples are ready for the third stage of marital recovery after an affair: Rebuilding their relationships. They all seem to be willing to negotiate, and are willing to let their spouses meet their emotional needs. That means they are no longer in the state of emotional withdrawal and are firmly fixed in the state of emotional conflict (if you do not understand the terms "withdrawal" and "conflict" see "Negotiating in the Three States of Marriage"). So any attempt to make their spouses happy is likely to have its desired effect -- love units will be deposited.

These two marriages are now in a position to be restored if the spouses take the correct steps. In some ways, both couples now have the same opportunity to solve their marital problems as they did before the affairs took place. And if they had done it then, they would have avoided all of the pain that the affairs inflicted on them. They are now where most bad marriages are, burdened by Love Busters and the failure to meet important emotional needs. So if they can toss off those burdens, they will not only create the marriage they need, but also eliminate the risk of another affair.

The steps these couples should take to restore their marriages are described in my book, Fall in Love, Stay in Love. It explains how couples can identify and overcome the Love Busters, anger, disrespect and demands. It also shows couples how to meet each other's emotional needs. But most importantly, it teaches couples how to create compatibility -- how to create an integrated lifestyle where dishonesty and secret second lives are eliminated.

The solution to most marital problems requires spouses to override their Taker's instincts. Doing what you feel like doing works great when you are in love, because the Giver calls the shots. But when you are not in love, and your Taker is in charge, your instincts will make matters much worse. The Taker wants you to get angry, be disrespectful and make demands. All of those Love Busters withdraw love units and also create defenses that make depositing new ones almost impossible.

Both C.W. and S.C. find their spouse's Love Busters coming between them and the restoration of love. But I'm sure that both of them are dishing them out as well.

So the first step in the restoration of marriage after an affair is to lay down the weapons. Each spouse must make a concerted effort to avoid anger, disrespect or demands at all costs. Every time they are together, they must do whatever it takes to make the relationship safe for each other.

Once they can guarantee each other safety, by protecting each other from Love Busters, they are ready to learn to meet each other's emotional needs. But they will have to learn to negotiate all of these issues with the Policy of Joint Agreement in mind. They must begin by guaranteeing each other that the cost of a great marriage will not require personal sacrifice. It will only require a willingness not to do anything that would hurt each other. They must understand that everything they will be doing in the future must take each other's feelings into account, and safety will be the guiding rule from now on.

With personal safety as the condition for negotiation, and enthusiastic mutual agreement as the goal, a couple is ready to rebuild. But that environment of safety may take a while to create. It may be the very first skill that they will need to learn before they can negotiate satisfactory.

Thanks for that repost, believer. WW and DD are on their way back from their weekend out of town today.

WW starts working again tomorrow
DD starts daycare tomorrow.

I'm as depressed as ever...

You'll be fine. This part of this goes kinda slow. Which, now that "panic mode" is over, causes you to sit back...let the adrenaline settle down. So, depression or sadness is normal. If it is too bad, go get some meds just to take the edge off for a few weeks.

Gramn, it is going well. Keep taking steps toward the future. She is noticing.

In His arms.

Gramm:

Here is the way I analysed my FWW after DD. I gave her the benefit of the doubt by her accidently falling in love with another man behind my back and told her I wanted to start over. She got busted and with the twist of her arm and the threat of more exposure to her, she said she would come back and work to rebuild our marriage. Here is the problem, at this stage, she still loved the OM more than me. Her withdrawal was as painful for her as her betrayal was for me. My FWW came back to the marriage and me against her real desire and will. What she wanted was the OM but begrudgingly came back to the family. I thought she would bend over backwards to apologize and I thought she would want me to forgive her. It doesn't work that way.

I think your wife's heart is still very much with her OM and her love for him is greater today than her love for you. Understand that withdrawal is hard and try and not take every bad moment and negative words from her as permanent and real. Learn to chalk it up as part of the fog talk. Many months from now, she will come back as a renewed person but it will be hard for you see the day to day transition. It is a painful day to day and hour by hour process. I know you are hanging on to any word of hope she may say but she is not sorry for their actions as of yet. She rewrote the history of your marriage to justify her selfish actions and she still blames you for taking the love of her life away from her.

I am months ahead of you and I can tell you, you are winning by default and she will eventually resign herself she lost her OM. She will begin to see the value in you and her family as she learns better that the OM is gone forever. You must pray for strength to get through this period. I came to believe and leaarn that withdrawal was more painful for me than the affair itself. My wife didn't love me at this stage of the process. She probably hated me for hurting her and her lover's relationship. She planned on being with him forever.

Forget your perception of progress for now. You have actually made progress but it is not the progress that you thought or envisioned. Exposure caused the OMW to get involved to disrupt the affair so exposure worked as it is supposed to work. Withdrawal will continue for a couple of months or more and you will gradually hear her begin to say things that sounds like she is coming back or glad she is back. Be prepared for her setbacks. Don't allow her to have ANY contact with the OM to happen. Any contact screws them up and throws them back to the beginning.

My old wife is back today and better than before. We are both scarred because of her affair but we are people with flaws who made mistakes. The hard part of recovery is for you to "really" forgive the woman you love with her imperfections and her painful past actions. Time heals pain. I hope this helps you some.

TooSoon

Wise words from TooSoon. He is absolutely correct.

In His arms.

Thanks Mortaman, I believe you have been to the depth below and back too and you understand the process.

Gramm: After my wife committed to coming back to the marriage, I found computer history showing she was apartment shopping and furniture shopping with plans of moving out. After she recommitted to me, she even put down a deposit on an apartment and was planning on leaving me and our two kids for a guy 18 years younger than her and 25 years younger than me.

Ws's are so blinded by the fog they can't see straight or reality. Somehow you have to find a way past this. Even posting this makes me relive the pain I felt and it hurts but I want you to know there is life, even after the person you trusted the most, betrayed you. I better understand the idea that God is the only person that won't let you down. Everyone else will and that I have come to believe.

Do not give up as tough as life seems today. You and I have made so many stupid and unforgivable mistakes in our lives, that we need to be the ones that forgive since we have been forgiven by others.

I am in hopes that these words will help you and give you a bit of peace.

TooSoon

OK, today was the first day as a teacher for WW and the first day of Daycare for DD. DD was supposed to spend the night with me last night, but WW wanted to be there for DD's first day of "school" so she offered to swap days adn wanted me to stay over at her apartment last night. It was an interesting offer, so I accepted it.

We talked things over for a long time.

She says that the love/attraction she felt for OM was so great that she realizes that she needed more in her life.
She says that it was more intense than anything we ever had.
She is saying that she's not attracted to me and that if she moved back home, she'd be "living a lie", i.e. pretending to be happy. I, of course, told her that we can work ion rebuilding our love, but she feels like this "love" is something that can't be worked at.

I told her that I DON'T want her to pretend anything. BUT she has to be committed to making the marriage work or it won't matter.

She is still willing to go to counciling, but seems very pesimistic about the prospect of working things out.

I think she wants to be "friends" or some crap.

Overall, we didn't fight or anything, but this attitude about being willing to give up on our marriage to find "something better" is very troubling.

Gramm, its a very typical attitude of a WS in the throes of an addiction. Its about like expecting a porn addict to go back to normal relations overnight. But, as she withdraws from the fantasy, she will realize it was a fantasy and will draw towards you. I would make it clear, though, that you won't be her "friend," you are her husband. Tell her, "I am your husband, not just a "friend.""

Don't worry about the rest of the stuff, it is just fogbabble.

I agree with Mel. My FWH said the EXACT same stuff that your WW is saying. I would tell him: "I have faith that your love for me will come in time." It did.

Now, after withdrawal, he seems more "in love" with me than he ever was. He seems appreciative that I stood by and waited him out, makes him love me more. Almost unbelieveable!

The key is to HAVE FAITH....

I'm trying to have faith...

What freaks me out:

She has already moved out to this apartment of hers

She has fled for divorce and we are 1/2 way through with these proceedings.

I'm getting child support taken out of every paycheck and we're both going to be even more broke than we are now!

When are you planning to start plan B?

Soon, I would think?

I think you have NO choice but to Plan B today.

Your wife is in Withdrawal, she has started to have some good feelings towards you, she has Filed for Divorce and you are halfway thru, both of you are Broke, and there is No Plan C. Some people say you can be nice towards your wife after Divorce and sometimes couples get back together but the odds are close to zero.

To this point we have been correct in everything we told you your wife do (textbook).

There is no guarantee Gramn that she will come back, but what options do you have left?

Time to HIT your wife with the FULL consequences of HER Actions.

Time for the Knockout Punch.

She has Lost OM (she knows down inside the fantasy is OVER) her HUSBAND still Loves her and is willing to accept her back (on HIS conditions) and they have a child together, she will be breaking up a Family.

Conditions won't get any better Gramn.

In a sense, she is Cake-eating. She still has about a 1% hope that OM may come back and at the same time she knows she has a HUSBAND who will take her back anytime she wants. So why rush things?

Time for her to make a decision Gramn. She can't choose OM. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Gramn,

I am praying and thinking about Plan B for you. Not quite sure it is there yet...but it is close to knocking on the door.

On what she said, MelodyLane is right...it is mostly fogbabble. But I seem to have become an expert here in decifering fogese. So, let me tell you what I see here.

First off, she was honest about her attraction to Y-Guy-Oopps-Not-Y-Guy. The addiction is VERY strong, as we have all seen. So, I am going to say something here that will sound a little weird...dont take it personally! Yeah, I know. I feel the same way. But you have to understand that the addiction has so blinded her to reality that she doesnt remember what you all had very well. So, jsut ignore that.

But what is good about what she said is that while she says it cant work, strangely enough she keeps bringing up the idea of being back in the same house. Sure, she says it will be loveless. But what does she know? She thought I-Cant-Work-at-the-gym-anymore-Y-Guy was her soulmate. Please never take seriously things that are said by people who dont know what they are talking about.

But she is talking. Here's the rub. While she says it cant work, but she keeps talking about it...what is she really saying? What is she asking for Gramn? And she is indeed asking for something. Think for a second.

Here's the answer...she wants someone to lead her to the answer. She is lost. But she no longer wants to be lost. But she sees no way out, no way to fix things. She doesnt have this website like you do. She hasnt read about emotional needs or POJA or love busters. She hasnt read Surviving an Affair and seen how typical these things are and how simple (notice I didnt say easy) it will be to get the marriage back on track. She has none of this knowledge base.

She wants to do the right thing...but she has no knowledge how. So, she sees only defeat. Now here is where you have to weigh in very delicately. Because a huge principle you must remember is that a WS does NOT want to be educated by a BS. So, how do you educate her without educating her?

Next time you are over with her or are talking, make sure you have a copy of Dr. Harley's books in the car (SAA, Love Busters, Emotional Needs). When she starts talking, dont just follow up with "I know we can have a great marriage." That means nothing. Right now she things yo uare just as much of an idiot as she things she is. Instead say something like "You know, I read a book just the other day that talked about that. And how there is a plan that helps couples like us find a great marriage. Even one of the couples in the book had a discussion just like you and I had. Reading that series of books has definitely helped me realize whee things went wrong and how we can get things right. How we can fall in love again."

And then be quiet. Say nothing. Let her ask questions. Let her ask for the books. And then say "Sure" and then give them to her.

She needs to have information now. But it has to come without her feeling like you are educating her. I dont know if this counselor knows of these principles, if he does...great. But if not, I still suggest spending the money to at least get a couple of sessions with Steve Harley. He is a whole bunch cheaper than divorce. And he will help your wife see the plan of how to recover. As well as you. And that education will come from an expert.

Anyway, thik about it. She needs info in order to see what avenues she can take.

In His arms.

I have been planning to bring her some books. I won't make her read them, but I will leave them to read when she is ready. She will at least try.

I don't want to try Plan B, right now, when she has agreed to go to councilig with me. Isn't that what I want? I mean, we have not set a counciling date yet, but it is a start.

----------------------
The whole "not attracted to me" thing is discouraging. I can maybe work out more or iron my shirts or something, but I can't change who I am in any major way.

I already shave, have a decent haircut don't wear torn or dirty clothes, etc.

Gramm:

Ask your wife to move back in for 120 days as a trial period and tell her you will go to MC at the same time. I think she wants to come back to you but she wants to keep her pride and ego in tact. She doesn't want you to make her feel like she was wrong with her affair. She will come to realize how wrong she was but she won't tell you for sometime. Don't let your pride stop you from asking her to move back home.

TooSoon

I don't think she'd go for that, but it can't hurt to try, right?

Yesterday was very annoying.

First, her afternoon Psychologist's appointment was cancelled. She says that the doctor cancelled it. She has not rescheduled it yet.

SO, because of this cancellation, WW picked up our daughter from day care. I picked up DD from WW's apartment. While there, I invited WW over to the house for dinner. She said that she'd be there. and gave me a (nonstandard) hug and kiss.

But later, I call her to tell her dinner is almost ready at about 6:15. No answer. It went directly to voicemail. I try a few more times and the same thing. So DD and I just ate without her.

About an hour later she shows up dressed differently, and says that she was at a bar with her (also divorcing) girlfriend. She didn't realize that her phone got no reception in this bar, but apparently she just got my message after she left. (Technologically, her story is sound. If her phone was in a "dead zone" it would just go directly to voice mail.)

So she ate, hung out for a little while and took off again to "work on lesson plans" for her new job.

She maintains that OM is not talking to her. Maybe I'm just rightfully paranoid, but I don't believe a word if it.

SO, I feel like crap, again.
Either:

1) She'd rather go to a bar than have dinner with her daughter and I.
2) She is seeing OM again, and lying about it, again.
(Of course, I have no proof of anything.)

{{{Gramn/DD}}}