I guess I need to give her space and time. I have resisted the urge to say "I told you so!".

Right now, things seem to be "on the mend" but I am worried about this looming divorce stuff. I don't see how we can remain friends if we are spending thousands to dollars trying to wrestle custody from one another.

Gramm, I suspect it won't go to divorce at all. See, she only threatened that so she could leave and be with YGuy. Now he is gone so she is left with ashes and wounded pride. She can't exactly abandon the "divorce" at this point lest it be apparent that it really WAS just for the OM and not because of her "unhappy marriage." See what I mean? She doesn't want to lose face.

So, your job is to help her do what she was already going to do without losing face, abandon the divorce. Give her a great EXCUSE to stay in her marriage so she can tell people that you worked so hard on the marriage that she just decided to stay!

Gramn - With the weekend coming up, I think I would tell her that you need a break from the D talk. Let her know that you would like to wait until the papers come. See if you can divert things to spending some time doing something together. Something that you both enjoy.

Do not say "I told you so!" to her! Not for a couple of years <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Don't mention the D. If she didn't really file, and papers never show, don't mention it.

You rock, Gramn!

Gramn:

You have done great! You are quite a WARRIOR now.

My question to you now is: What left the door open for Y-Guy? What marital issues need to be addressed? What are your WW's primary ENs? Now is time for the marital work that YOU can do.

I'm trying to help refocus you from the "I told you so" thinking.

I agree with the others that your WW is in withdrawal. She won't be able to do marital work at this time but you can. Don't buy into the D talk because you are still married and have stressed how you want to work on the marriage. Continue with this mantra. She will be trying to get you off of this base in order to convince herself that D is the right thing. STAND TALL!!

That is a good idea in theory... I think avoiding the Divorce talk is possible, but she will still accuse me of things in almost any possible context.
Me: Did you got to McDonalds?
Her: Because of you, I can't! The whole town thinks I'm the town slut because of what you said!

I WILL ask her to do something.
BUT, the problem is this...

1) She generally rejects every idea I have, from taking our daughter to the playground together, to eating together.
2) Last weekend I was visiting my parents with our daughter. We came home to see her, and she immediately took off with the girl. I will not be used that way again.

Gramm, maybe it would be a good idea to just back off a little bit and just play it by ear. But don't let her spitefulness distract you from doing the right thing. And don't do things to try to appease her, that isn't going to work.

She is furious at you because you ruined her affair, so give her a chance to get over her anger and just look for opportunities to engage her.

Gramn:

You didn't answer my questions about what you think is going on with your WW? Was it postpartum depression.

I was asking so that we could help you with PLAN A. I'm not saying to "appease" her. However, I do think it is helpful to consider what her particular issues are. I recommend that you don't dismiss the importance of that. Even though, my H didn't say it at the time, he noticed the changes that I had made.

Gramm, Mimi is exactly right and I hope you listen to her. She is a master at discerning needs and meeting them. What was your marriage like before the affair? What do you think led to all this?

Maybe you could do what bOb pure did when his W was in a similar stage. He would make fun plans with his kids then invite WW to join you. If she didn't then he would just go without her...You try to have an attitude where she can save face...she may go along with an attitude...try not to pay attention to the negatives...water off a duck's back.

I don't know what kinds of stuff you can plan to do with a 2 yr old in your area...playground, kids hands-on discovery museum, zoo, Chuck E Cheese...

You know, that reminds me of several times where I planned some things with my kids while my wife was still living with us (right after D-Day). One day, I went and got McDonalds for me and the kids (I had asked if she wanted anything and of course, got a "no"). We then took it out back on the porch and sat on the porch and talked and ate...and the boys threw the baseball around while we all just sat around. It was nice.

But later...much later...my wife said she would constantly remember that day. She would walk by the back door and see us out there...and deep inside, wish she was out there with us. Of course, she was so in the fog that she couldnt at the time. But those memories began to haunt her.

Gramn, I did a lot of things like that. One time I put together this 25 picture frame (it was huge) with pictures of me and my wife and our kids. Two of them were wedding pictures, some were pictures of the day of the birth of our kids, some were just all of us growing up together. I gave it to her. Didnt ask if she wanted it...just gave it to her. She put it on the wall at her apartment. Again, I found out much later on that the OM would be POed that it was on the wall because he had to look at me and our family everytime he came over. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> And my wife admitted later on that when she was alone, she would look at those pictures and just cry, as she missed me and the kids and her family.

Of course, I didnt know any of this was going on. As proud as she is, she wasnt going to let on how much she missed me or how much of a mistake she had made. As we talked when she came to me wanting reconciliation, she said "The worst days of our marriage were better than what I am going through now."

THAT is what you are looking for, Gramn!! To plant seed so she begins to remember, begins to miss you and your family. So, when I say buy Chinese, I mean don't ask her. Just get it. Then walk by her room, tell her that you bought Chinese and got her favorite, and then walk away. Leave it on the counter, make a plate for you and your daughter...and then sit down and have a meal. Have fun at the meal. Believe me, she will be sitting down the hall wishing she was there (and having her stomach growl as she thinks about that food sitting in the kitchen).

It may take time for these seeds to grow. A pastor of mine once talked about this. He said too often, we plant seeds and expect to see growth the next day. So, we plant the seeds, go to bed and wake up...then go out and dig the seeds up to see if they are growing.

Remember, just because you cant see under the surface, doesnt mean those seeds arent growing. But you have to leave them alone for a little while, make sure they get water...and in their time, they will grow and you will begin to see them.

So, trust God on this one. All He has asked you to do is plant seeds. He is responsible for making them grow. Do your part and trust Him.

In His arms.

Mimi- I think she did have Postpartum depression after the baby was born, but that was a while ago. Since then she has gotten involved in the community, made friends and been less depressed. She even joined the Y... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

But the problem seems to be the EN...
EVEN BEFORE ANY OF THIS AFFAIR STUFF, here was the situation...

I think that I am not meeting her needs somehow, but she does not want to discuss that directly, and so I just go around doing what I can...

For instance, she wants me to be more ambitious, to get ahead and make some money and provide for the family. OK that makes sense. I can work hard...
BUT she also wants me to help her with our daughter in the morning and come home promptly (at 4:30) each day ready to take on chores and cleaning.

Then, late at night, she wanted me to stop working and come to bed to watch TV and be with her.

I've tried my best, but you can't have it all at once. Either I work hard at my career or I spend time helping at home, but it's unrealistic to expect all of that in one day.
Before this affair started, I feel like I was giving it my all to do what I could and it made no difference to her. I never tried hard enough, or got home soon enough...

This concerns me a lot...


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I invited her and Daughter to lunch today. I got SHOT DOWN big time! "Do you think that you can ruin my life and and other lives and that I'll want to have lunch with you!??" So, I guess I have to be more patient...

It sounds like a part of you feels burdened by your role as H and sole provider for your family. I know my H had some resentment bottled up when I was a SAHM. It isn't easy. It is lots of work and you end up feeling like you are giving all the time.

I hope, in time, that if you make it to recovery you can POJA some of these things so you can feel more like you are on an equal footing with her as your partner. Unfortunately, while in Plan A you will be the main giver.

How about this. Maybe she doesnt want the financial security as much as she would like to feel needed and appreciated by you. When she would cook would you acknowledge it? Did you notice that the house was clean? Did you notice and tell her that she looked nice on a particular day. Do you notice when she changes her makeup or hairstyle. Do you make sure you keep your appearance up? Shave regularily, throw out the old ratty t-shirts.

Trim those unsightly nose hairs and ear hairs.

These are things that women notice and as men we tend not to. They are unimportant to us. They need to be important to you because they are important to her. It is trial and error. You do things and she how she responds.

It is pretty worthless now but other have given you some great ideas. Just do things and include an offer to join. She will notice. She will probably think you are up to something but after a while she will realize.

This stage is not nearly as stressfull but it is VERY awkward. You have to get to know each other again and it is tough because of all the pain.

Gramm, some of these are legitimate needs and others are just the selfish demands of a tyrannical bully. There is a huge difference. I would take the emotional needs questionaire and see if you can get her to take it. Wait until next week or so to ask her, tho.

Gramn:

Please don't think that I am saying that you caused her to have an A. However, if you sense that you have not been adequately meeting her ENs, that did leave the door open for Y-Guy. Certainly, it was not OK for her to betray you by establishing a R with him. Sounds like she was seeking FRIENDSHIP...Sound familiar?

Sounds like you have adequately met the FINANCIAL SECURITY need. What seems lacking is ATTENTION and AFFECTION. Did you stop spending time together just talking? The reason I ask this is because it seems hard for you to share with us WHO YOUR WIFE IS. What is she like as a person? What does she enjoy? What makes her laugh? You learn this by giving attention and spending time with her.

It is not too late for you to do this now. Even though it may seem that she is resisting your efforts, she will notice. She may try to get you to change back but that is typical while she is in the fog. Now that my FWH is totally out of the fog, he surprisingly refers back to the way I was during PLAN A. I was struggling, dying inside, and all the while he was noticing.

I think it's important to focus on her special needs if you can. Maybe get one of the ENs Questionnaires and fill it out as if you were your wife. The questionnaire is somewhere on the website, I think...

I am with Melody on that one. They're not relaistic needs are they? They seem a bit selfish to me.

I also like Motor's picture idea. However, right now she is an angry person and anger is never good now is it? Next will be the depression as she accepts reality. Gramn, you need to be ready for anything. You're awre of your wife's affair. I was not aware of my wife's actions. I am very aware of my misgivings at that time. Remember, I went as far as finally signing off on the divorce. I lived in 5 years of absolute hell with her. She may leave, she may file. Just prepare yourself.

I would not ever enter my XW's house because I would get angry. I could not be around her. I had professed my love even after our divorce. When I finally did (one of our boy shad a problem) I noticed that she had never taken down any photos of me and the boys. I did not understand. She got very upset when I told her I was surprised she still had her wedding dress as I was preparing to move back in. She cried over that comment. Why would she keep it?

So Gramn....not only is your wife in a fog right now...if things end up back to normal there may still be things you never understand.....

Prepare yourself for anything!!! I also do not recommend letting yourself get in the position of letting her stay there because she has no other option for long....Plan A...prepare B...you're in for a bumpy road ahead...buckle up...and keep coming here

I would not suggest asking her to take the questionnaire. She probably won't do it right now. I do feel it's helpful to try to get a better understanding of her ENs. Again I say fill the questionnaire out yourself to try to guess her responses. I found that to be helpful in my sitch.

You do make her sound like a bully in some of what you say. However, I feel that it's necessary to do the work of digging deep to figure out what the underlying message is. I made the mistake of downplaying my FWH's wants and needs. He didn't let me know what his needs were in a "PRETTY" way. However, I do feel that it is part of our jobs as spouses to try to be sensitive and intuitive....

Well, today she seems to be feeling pissed off again. Yelling at me more, then apologising then yelling more. "You had no right to interfere in my life!"...

So, I'll have to be patient.
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Melody & Send me: my parents said the same thing as you did, that she is selfish. I'm not sure how that "insight" helps the situation though.

Feelin Groovy: I used to wear wrinkled shirts or not shave. In the last year, I have put more attention into my appearance, shaving daily, throwing away shirts with frayed collars, etc. I'm sure that was a positive step, but obviously not enough. I should exercise more, but with constant work and house chores there has been no time. (When I would want to go run a few miles in the evening, she would get annoyed that I wasn't helping her with our daughter while she made dinner)

I DON'T make enough money for her spending desires. She is mostly responsible, but we've gradually collected a mountain of credit card debt. So, she wants more money, but also other commitments from me.

I try to give her attention, maybe that is an issue. I can try harder, but it seems fruitless.
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No one asked, but here are my needs that she hasn't met:

I've already posted about the huge list of couples activities that she had no interest in doing with me. (She also wouldnt fill out the EN questionaire even before this affair stuff started) How can we build or work on a relationship if she has all of her exercise/fun while I am at work?

Since she was pregnant several years ago, she has had no interest in sex with me. Occasionally she would try, mostly out of guilt, but that is not going to help anything. Apparently she had SF with OM, so there is nothing wrong with her physically, but she has not been interested. I think this one will work itself out though, if I coudl fill her other prime EN.

About pictures... She recently took down or put away a few pictures of us from our wedding, or as a family. I'm not sure how she'd feel now, but I'll have to try putting up a few and see what she does.

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About the EN, I think that they are important, but if she pressures me on EVERY ONE, I have no idea which ones to concentrate on. If she really expects me to provide maximum dedication to ALL POSSIBLE EN, then I am sure to fail.

It helps very much when you set boundaries in your marriage when you are in recovery in the future.

I would also keep in mind something REAL IMPORTANT, Gramm: women do not respect men they can run over. And we do not love men we don't respect. Men strangely think that complying with a woman's selfish demands will earn them more love, but it doesn't. It simply earns them disrespect and disgust. Just keep that in mind the next time she tries to bully you with her selfish demands.


What did you say to her when she said this? Does she really believe that having an affair is not her husband's life? hehee