How is it "chivalrous" to abandon your family? Good grief, she is talking some serious smack here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

FAR, that was my reaction exactly.

"Any chivalrous man would move out on his own"

Move out of HIS OWN HOME?!!!!! WHAT???? PUHL-LEASE! She is so deluded.

No, WW, a CHIVALROUS man stands and FIGHTS for his family. She needs to be reminded of that the next time she tries talking that smack to you Gramn, trying to make you feel like less of a man. Just calmly tell her that you are that kind of man. Period.

Just keep hammering away, Gramn. Slow & steady. You've been doing great! I know it's easy to get discouraged, and it doesn't feel like you're making much progress; but you really are. Look at how far you've come to get to this point!

So, she wants to see chivalrous, huh? Go don your Chivalrous Man costume and show her exactly how you will protect your family from those Evil Outside Forces!!! (even those nefarious traps wantonly laid out by one Delusional Woman!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

:: Gramn strides to the top of a boulder; pauses and effects a pose of fists on hips, red Chivalrous Man cape billowing out behind him, profile on display ::

LOL. No, really, Gramn, you can do it, hon. You've come this far. Look forward, see your goal, and stride towards it, never looking away. You cannot afford to look away. You cannot afford to waver, or feel weak, or let her will override yours -- because it can, and will.

But so can yours, if you persevere.

And yes, you can forego the tights, cape, boots and leotard. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Though Lois found it pretty hot.

slh

Gramm,

Only a spineless, cowering, milquetoast doormat would move out of his own house when told to by his cheating, fog-addled WS!!

Speaking of STD's, on one of Coach's threads, he spoke of making his WS get checked out by the Doc!

Throw that in her face during one of her tirads!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

k

Gramn - dude - I am praying for you, man. You have a lot of soul searching to do. I have read through the data about "what if" and pregnancy.

Stay in your house. FOG, FOG, FOG

It is interesting how, even in the middle of it myself - I can look over and see your sitch and see it from farther away than you. You know - you read other people's posts - and the advice that comes in is dead on - and you can see it - and the person posting does not grasp it very well. Just look at the other posts. There is a lot of GOLDEN advice here. Not all of it - but you and I have minds and can think and discern. And we see who gives the most solid advice continually. Listen to our guides. And look inside yourself and pray and scour this site for pregnancy. If that comes to be, you could become almost as big as GOD with your actions toward your wife. And I have a feeling she is so F*****G scared right now. We will all be here for you. Come to us as often as you need. (not implying I am a guide - I am just a brother) And if you ever want to tell me to shut up - just do it.

On my knees for you, brother.

FAR

Thanks again everyone. I've been pretty depressed lately, and the words here help keep me going.

It's too much to contemplate all at once.

Divorce!
Custody!
Adultery!
Pregnancy!
ARGH!
----------------------------
She was not willing to talk with me about that pregnancy stuff. I'll have to find a way to bring it up again though.
I'm not sure what I think on the subject though, but I'll just have to "be there for her".
----------------------------
and, amazingly, that possible pregnancy is not my main concern at this point as crazy as that sounds...

I know what you mean. WW and I are dancing around filing D. She was startled to receive a legal sounding letter from me, and freaked.

She is still hiding things from me, and insists that is not going to work out.

But she is seeing the changes.

Gramn - you are doing well, friend.

Like our guides tell us - time is on our side. IF she is P - she will either get an A or not. You have an opportunity to win either way.

I will be praying for you.

far

I went back & read your whole story Gramn. All I can say is that you have done an excellent job. What a rollercoaster youve been on. The whole situation sounds like a soap opera episode.

The circumstances of your situation actually helped you some...your wife not having a full time job, her a SAHM, & you both having a child.

I didnt fight for my M like you have. Oh how I wished I found this web site when my situation started. The advice that has been given on this thread is amazing & right on target. My situation was a little different....she had a full time job & we didnt have any children. That made it a little harder.

Keep going Gramn....keep listening to the people here at this site. Keep that journal going too. Keep on fighting..you are a hero. Your daughter will admire & thank you one day. Even if you do end up D...just know that you made every effort to save it. I didnt make as strong of an effort as you did...I was ignorant of what to do.

I sure hope that one day someone will write a book, make a website or something...anything...that others can read before they get on this rollercoaster. It is a nightmare.

Good luck with your situation FoundaReason. I can't imagine going through this MULTIPLE times. I'll pray for you too.
-----------------------------------------
It all still seems pretty hopeless from here. I expect to get these papers today. Whatever the outcome, this Divorce is going to cost much more money than we have. Wife is totally irresponsible with money. She won't care. But I do and I have to keep working to pay for all of this!

My parents were trying to convince me that we should go for a dissolution, mainly because of the "waste of money" factor. But then I told them about the custody issues with their granddaughter and they saw my perspective.

---Well, I hope the people here are right and we can work it out. It seems impossible from here. Any time I even mention anything about us as a couple she freaks out screaming.

"Any time I even mention anything about us as a couple she freaks out screaming."

Thats in the WS script. They all do that. Its a universal reaction. Posters at other websites say their WS do the same thing. Mine did. BUT unlike you, I took it personal & it made me even more sad. DONT let it do it to you. Don't mention anything about being a couple to her. To give fuel to her fire.

She is still in the 'fog' Remember that. She is trying desparately to justify everything & make herself not feel guilty. I think others would agree that that behavior is typical WS too.

You have to be super-nice guy. Watch out for those LB's. Try to fulfill any EN that you can. She will try to block you in that regard, but find other ways to do it.

Just keep going strong Gramn...you are the calm hero in all this. I really admire you.

Gramm I got it! Get some GHB and cook her dinner and put the GHB in her food, if she asks why the food taste strange just tell her its your secret ingrediant! That should knock her out for a couple of hours if not more than 4 hours at most, enough time to do a pregnancy test and if she is pregnant you will have a good couple of hours to scream and pull your hair out before she even wakes up! hehehehehehe, I'm just full of entertaining ideas!

Gramn..as you have been told numerous times "batten down the hatches"...the battles may soon be a war...you must follow MM's script and be procative. Especially showing that her behavior is irresponsible, unstable, etc. You also need to prepare yourself for seperation. If she files divorce papers do you really want your child in an environment that will be completely chaotic, emotional and full of anger? One of you has to leave and it should be her because she has not shown that she can properly care for your daughter....once those papers get filed she is not "your problem regarding where she stays"...let her stay with friends...

Does this mean that it's over? Could be. When it finally hit in my case (the cr*p that is) I finally just said "lets get this over with"...and within 90 days I was divorced. In NY if you want a divorce, eventually you get one...there is no stopping it. Now look at me...back living with my XW and kids...

it is time for you to take care of yourself...and your child

Noliving--I'm glad that I'm not married to you! Yikes!
-----------------------

With the affair out of the way (at least for now) the main tension will probably come from divorce related stuff.

Today, She asked if I wanted to eat lunch with her . (and she called me this morning so I could say "hi" to our daughter...)

So, I'll see what happens...

This is all good, Gramn. Very good. She is actually giving you opportunities to Plan A her. Take advantage of that.

She is still in Fogland, and any afront to what she has done or is doing by you will be met with anger. She will shift blame for everything.

Dont let it stick. Just calmly go to lunch with her, enjoy her company, let her slowly begin to see who you are.

My wife said something interesting today, and I'd like to share because it is a great example of what happens when a BS stops trying to educate their WS and just stays on script, states the facts and lets it be. Here's what happened...

A couple of things had gone wrong yesterday and my wife wanted to talk. We havent talked about the OM or the affair or anything like that in over 4 months (you see, even in recovery, it will come up...but the periods between it coming up are coming further apart). Anyway, my wife tried a little of her old foggy talk, some revisionist history.

Well, inside it was like somebody hit the old adrenaline switch with a hot poker. I was ready to launch. I wanted to go off. But, I sat there for a second and listened. I said to myself "Wait a minute...let her talk...let it soak in before you speak." So she said what she had to say and then I began to speak.

Again, I WANTED to go off, to educate her on the truth. But as I had to learn the hard way during the affair, that would not have gone well. Instead, I began with the fact that I love her and that I am sorry for the mistakes that I have made. I said that although I have made some mistakes, even mistakes during her affair when I did soem things I should not have, that my mistakes have all been made in trying to do the best for her and our family.

And then I skirted very close to disrespectful judgements. Oh, I wanted to tell her how wrong she was. But I instead told her how I felt by what she had done. That my view of it all was that she had done what she did and made mistakes...but they had been not for me or the family, but for herself. Again, I said this was very close to a DJ...but the way I said it and the context of the conversation, it was not.

I went on to finish with telling her that I hope she has begun to see that the ONLY person that has stood by her, has picked her up, has looked out for her well being...has been me. Her family wanted to stay out of it. My family wanted me to can her. Our church took a hands off approach. Many of our friends either ran or enabled her. No one looked out for her. No one stood up and told her the truth. She used to see that the OM was such a good friend. But where is the Om now? Why didnt he stand up and fight for her if he was such a good friend?

I told her I have been the only one in her life over our marriage of 12 years that has been there beside her. That I have made mistakes...but always mistakes that were made while trying to do what I thought was right for her and the kids.

I finished by saying to her that I have been there for her, that I am here now...and I will always be there for her.

We were both a little upset by the end of the conversation. It definitely brought up a lot of the bad that we had not had to deal with the last 4 months. So we just went inside and got ready for bed and went to sleep.

I left for work early this morning before she woke up. Well, about an hour ago, my wife calls telling me she is out runnign errands. And then she asks if I wanted to talk about what we discussed last night. In reality, I was spent and just wanted to get away from it. But it was obvious she wanted to finally say something about what I had said last night. And here was the fruits of what I did last night...

"Mortarman, I do not disagree with you that you have been the only true friend in my life, the only one to stand by me and to be there for me." The rest of the conversation was her stating a few things that she still wanted me to change and that she wanted to talk more tonight.

But that statement was HUGE!! You see, we have been in recovery for awhile...and she never has admitted this kind of stuff. She never has admitted that she made a mistake or that maybe I wasnt such a bad guy before or during the affair. It was an admission that she is even now clearing out more of the fog and seeing more of the truth.

But if I had done it differently last night...if I had tried to educate her and tell her how wrong she was...do you think she would have spent the night and this morning thinking about what I had said and realizing the truth? You know she would not have.

So, my suggestion to you Gramn is to set your boundaries, take care of the legal and financial things you need to. Plan A her. And listen to her. It all will not make much sense. And much of what you do and say will SEEM like it goes unnoticed. But I am living proof that she notices. That she takes it in. And as others have said here...it takes quite a few of those events, of those talks, before critical mass is reached and she is able to see clearly again.

As everyone has said, you have done well. Now, walk gently, open your ears...and stand guard over your boundaries. I have been where you are. You have done so much better than I did this early in the game. I expect to see the two of you two years from now havign the same discussion my wife and I had last night.

In His arms.

Thanks MM. I guess this just proves that this process takes a long time to get through.

It's hard to have a decent conversation without it getting into accusations. I'll try to keep if vague, but it is very tricky.

I'll be REALLY surprised if she doesn't yell at me about something today...

Gramn - Poor thing - yep, the yelling is getting old for you. However, her asking you to go to lunch so that she can yell at you is a huge step forward. Hang in there.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I might write a book about this. Ann Coulter has a book entitled "How to Talk to a Liberal...if You Must."

Mine should be titled "How to talk to a Wayward Spouse...if You Must."

In His arms.

I am laughing out loud believer. Yep its sad but true that being asked out to lunch so he can be yelled at is a positive step.

Make the most of these opporunities Gramn to show your best side. Trust us...she is noticing but she is still fighting the addiction.

OK, it was a short lunch, but went fairly well, I guess.

We were in a restaruant, so she couldn't yell very loud. She was still upset but not so frantic.

Also of note:
• She may have found an apartment. I discussed that our budget couldn't afford one, but she didn't thing that we could live together
• She said that the Y's Senior Board were meeting again today. I wonder if they will change their mind?
• I told her about my new seperate bank account. (Better to let her know than to let her bounce a check later!)

And what was said about all of this?

In His arms.