I think my WW's initial reaction to telling her that I'm moving on will be "good for you!"... Whether that actually is her real feeling is a different matter that I don't really know about.

Where is this 180° information?

I met with a councillor last night. I was pretty doubtful of his usefulness at first, but he ended up being pretty good.

He wants to help me revise my plan B letter. (He didn't- call it that, but he totally supports the idea)

I only have a sec...

I am not of the mind to talk with the WS about these kinds of things. I dont think it works in talking about divorce, or about the BS finally thinking about moving on. Why?

Remember, the only one holding the marriage together is the BS. The only one standing on moral and sometimes legal ground is the BS. The WS is as wrong as a person can be.

How many times do we hear on this web site someone saying that their WS was encouraging them to find someone else. Can anyone answer the question "why?"

It is because by coming down off that moral high ground, the BS justifies the WS' affair. Maybe not in reality...but in the WS' fog-bound mind, it justifies the affair.

ANY action by the BS i nthis area will be used by the WS as justification for what they have done and/or continue to do. If you went out on a platonic date...it doesnt matter. You are a cheater just like the WS...according to the WS. If you talk about a future without the WS with the WS, then the WS believes "See, he is just like me. I got to that same point and began thinking about someone else. He is no different than me."

We have to be different than them, folks! If we are the same...or even perceived as the same...then all of this will most likely fail.

One more reason I dont like doing this is that I dont want my WS to have the satisfaction of pulling me down in the same mud hole she created. Her affair was 100% hers. I want the full weight, guilt, and consequences to fall upon her while she is a WS. Once she turns away from those sins, she can then be given grace and those consequences can be put behind her...if it isnt too late.

Now, is it okay for her to THINK that something might be going on? Sure! But dont you lie, dont you even bring it up. Here is an example on how to do this.

Your wife calls on Friday morning and asks you to come over that night to watch a movie and have dinner. Now, you have already made plans to meet up with a friend (guy...no meeting women alone...ever...while you are still married). You guys were just going to have a drink and some wings and then call it a night.

But instead of saying "Honey, I cant tonight...I made plans with John to go throw darts and have a few drinks. How about tomorrow night?"....you will want to say "Honey, I have made plans for tonight. How about I come over tomorrow night?"

What's the difference, you ask. Look again. The key thing I did in the second one is that I was vague. I didnt lie. I didnt talk about some future with someone else that I might be prepared for. I didnt do any of these things. I told the truth! But, she will ask "Where are you going?" And that is where she has trapped herself.

Trapped? How? Well, remember, a WS is angry that you have invaded her "privacy" when you did your affair intelligence gathering. So, she is all for a person having privacy at this time. And remember in Gramn's case, she has moved out and filed for divorce. So in her world, she owes Gramn nothing. But if that works for her, it also works for Gramn in her mind.

So, he says back to her "I'm just going out for awhile." No argument. No telling her where. No saying "None of your business." just respond and then move onto a new topic.

Now, what will this do to her? Remember, she is a cheater. And she doesnt think badly of herself. So, she will believe that everyone else will also cheat. So, when she sees a situation like that where it APPEARS something is going on, she will assume that Gramn is doing exactly what she would be if she were in his shoes...out dating.

Now, later on...when she throws at Gramn "Look at all those times you went out dating...I am sure you had sex." Gramn can say "What are you talking about? I have not dated nor gone out with any woman but you in the last whatever years." She says "Well, what about those nights you went out when I had asked you to come over? What about the nights I called the house and you werent there until 2am?" And he can respond "Well, that one night I went to the billards palce to throw darts. Two of those other nights, I went to jake's house to watch the Redskins play."

You see? For awhile, she will have this whole thing worked up in her head that is going on...and it will be entirely her fault that it is in her head because you didnt lie, you didnt talk about divorce or other women. She did it to herself...and caused agony within herself.

When it is time to move on, when it is time to divorce...then you speak of divorce. When yo uaredivorced, then it will be time to speak of other women. Lying or talking about a future with other women is not the way to preserve your marriage. Now, you can be vague and let her think it is going on...that is awesome. but never, ever come off that pedestal.

Since the WS, while in the affair and fog, is almost always wrong...the BS must be almost always right.

In His arms.

Great Post Mortarman - I agree, keep your moral high ground Gramm, don't compromise all of your wonderful Plan A efforts.

Suspicion about what you might be doing will probably drive her crazy!

Thanks for that...

Plan B or not, I probably volunteer way too much info. Let HER ask if she is interested.

Maybe even with our daughter. If we had a great time, why does WW need to know about the fun that she was missing out on?

ANd, what is the 180° thing?

An example of the 180 list

I liked how MM suggested the way you might try to incorporate some of it.

That was the list I was looking for. Thanks Trix.

TooSoon

Gramm:

The general 180 concept is to not be so accessible and predictable. I have read where some BS's have worked on themselves, bought new clothes, pretended to go out with others but avoiding the questions from the WS when asked what was up. They would cut the calls short when the WS calls said they had to meet someone or be somewhere for dinner, etc.

In a sense, the BS creates an illusion with an air of aloofness. They become very unpredictable to their WS. The WS begins to wonder what is up. They wonder if their BS is seeing someone making the WS uncomfortable. The BS creates the perception of a life that the WS can only see a glimpse of but the WS is not told any detail. Reality, the details are not even there.

There are many different ways to skin a cat. A BS may say, I cannot see the DD tonight because something came up, when in fact, they go to the mall by themselves. When they drop the child back off to the WS, they may say can I drop them off earlier because I am going out with some friends, etc.
The WS gets a dose of their own medicine.

I hope this gives you some ideas.

TooSoon

You may be interested in checking these links as well:

7 Tactics To Use During an Affair.

12 Tactics To Avoid During An Affair.


TMCM

Some of that 180 stuff is difficult, at least during Plan A...

FOr instance, while I am in Plan A, I think sometimes going out together is GOOD. I can see how this would totally help Plan B though, and there are lots of things listed here that I could do better at.

In a way, I think she is doing better at some of these "try to take care of yourself" type things, which is annoying to me. I feel like I'm dying here and rather than going to her for herlp, I'm supposed to hide it and pretend I'm doing great?

Of course you are dying here. She is still foggy and not putting effort into the marriage. I think the whole point of the 180's is not to always be sitting around waiting for the WS. Start doing some living for you.

You are doing fine, Gramn. I know we have been telling you what to do and say for months. I for one am very proud of you. I think your story is going to be a success and will be one of the ones we refer to in the future.

Yesterday when I was at her apartment picking up DD, I saw a book that WW got from the library that gave me a LITTLE hope. I forget the exact name but it was something like "Can't live with him, can't live without him: Deciding on saving a relationship or not"
That is hardly a commitment, but at least she is THINKING about it.

Here is my Breakdown of this list:
I have done this in the past, but have been trying to avoid it.

I have been trying only to call her when logistically necessary

I'll have to remember this. I don't think I do this, but it is something that I would probably do.

I used to do this. Doesn't apply much when we are seperated...

I'll have to avoid this. It's hard when I have LOTS of concern about the future.

I'm sure that I've done that, and some of her family even do support me, but that won't matter one way or the other in the end.

I get few anyway.

I haven't been.

I have been doing this. (We are thinking of going out Friday) So I've decided that I won't push the issue. If she wants to go out, I'll go, but if she doens't want to go, or doesn't mention it, then I will come up with other plans.

I have sort of given up on this. It's just too mentally draining.

I have stopped.

This is a HARD one. What is the point of my life without my family? This one is very difficult...

Another hard one. I can fake these things, but that will probably make me look desperate... I'm trying...

I don't wait for her, but I dont' do much else either.

I need to work on this. I usually try to engage in conversaiton.

This will take some willpower...

Sounds good in theory...

I'm not usually nasty....

Sounds tricky. I'll try.

I have been doing this.

I don't, but I get frustrated with her sometimes.

That would seem pretty fakey...

I'll have to avoid that.

I'm trying!!

I listen, but what she says often seems like "fog talk"

I need to get better that leaving in a fight, or hanging up the phone.

I try, but it can be tough. Right now I am trying some relaxation/meditation thing to help me sleep better.

Sounds good in theory...

I understand the "actions louder than words" theory...

I think hiding how I feel makes me resentful. I'm trying to meet her EN in a "Confidant optomisitc" way and she is giving me all sorts of [email]cr@p[/email] and attitude? That is hard to deal with.

I try to avoid it. She thinks I have tried to give her a guilt trip. SO I stopped talking about how bad I feel unless she asks.

So true.

That is easier to say than do.

What does this even mean? Does it mean that slipping up at the points above will make me loose "love-bank" points or credability?

OK, that was long, but it will help me organize my thoughts...

Quick note...that book is horrible!! My wife started reading it recently, and then brought it to me. As we went over it together, Irealized it is nothing but a list of reasons why not to stay with someone. And it could apply to ANY relationship. It basically is saying that if your mate isnt perfect, then you should think about moving on. So, that isnt the book she needs to be reading.

I am actually reading that book in depth right now and I am going to publish on here a response to its major tenets.

Not a good read. Definitely not anything that would keep two people together, ESPECIALLY in bad times.

In His arms.

The name of the book is: Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay: Step Step GT Help You Decide Whether Stay or Get Out your Relationship by Mira Kirshenbaum.

Here is the description on Amazon:

Here is a response on Amazon from one read of this book...and this person was so very right:


In His arms.

Yeah, that is the book. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> On the plus side, it is a library book, which WW often checks out, but rarely reads.

yesterday, WW asked me to help her set up a school newspaper for her new teaching job. I wouldn't mind helping her with things like that, but then she goes no to say "...I told her that my x-husband and I are still friends and he might help me set this up..."
I gave her a funny look... ;/
Is that how she sees me? As her friendly x-husband?
What crap. On one hand I don't want to push her with the "I love yous" and stuff, but on the other I don't want her to think I've accepted her horribly destructive logic.
-----------------------
This morning I brought DD to daycare, and as usual, WW also showed up to greet her for the morning.

We discussed bills and WW was really upset that I wouldn't pay for her HUGE cell phone bill.
-------------------------
I'm trying to do the 180 stuff for now. SO far, I don't think it's really caused anything different than before. Maybe asking less about WW's activities...

My FWW continued to see her OM at work for 2 months after DD and during our MC sessions. I even took my wife for a night away to see a concert and her other man was very pi$$id and jealous. My wife told her OM one the times she was going to the MC and her OM was so H-bent on taking my wife, he showed up in the parking lot of the MC to let my FWW and myself know he was here for her. That was it for me. That hour at the MC, I gave her an ultimadum in front of the MC. I said, "by tomorrow every family member will know about her affair and every co-worker and their employer will know about the affair." I planned on ruining both of their reputations. I told her she was at the crossroads of her life and it was time to choose her family or her 28 year old boy-toy. (She was 46) I said if you choose him, you will lose your family forever. On the way home, my FWW called my cell from her cell and told me she will give her employer her two weeks notice and stop all contact with her OM.

The fear of additional exposure, embarrassment, and the reality of the final outcome was the final blow to the affair. The last day of her job, her painful withdrawal two months period began, which was necessary for the ending of the affair and for rebuilding of our marriage to begin.

I had always believed my wife was going to the MC to help me end the marriage and to justify to someone her affair actions. She never obtained the support of the MC like she thought she would and she tried to justify to the MC all the reasons why the marriage needed to end so she could be with her OM.

18 months later, you would never know we ever had a problem. Both of us have put it behind us and we chalk it up as a bad time in our marriage and life.

There is hope for people in the heat of the affair who feel desperate for it to end.

TooSoon

The Plan B drums are beginning to beat....

Just a little longer Gramn...hold out just a little longer.

In His arms.

Thanks for that story TooSoon...

Because my WW's OM broke it off, I think that has made recovery harder, in that my WW still wishes that the Affair would continue and has not taken responsibility...