Yesterday......we talked about what happened at the session last week. I pretty much let WH talk.

He said he knew he wasn't giving me what I needed. He is so stressed out about work, and finances. He said that he was not using this as an excuse.......

MC said we need to build some "positivity" into our M so that there is something to fall back on when the "negatives" come up......like when WH needs to talk with me about his A.

WH = victim......Me = perpatrator

WTF?????????

Then last night after we got home, WH found some discrepancies on a credit card bill of his. He called the company - to make it short, when he paid the last bill over the phone, they made a mistake writing down the bank routing number, so the payment was declined, and a hefty charge was added to the bill.

WH had a total breakdown. Cussing at the people on the phone. Crying "I just can't handle it!" (literally crying)

Told me he would sell me the house.....he just couldn't take being under a microscope all the time....and everythings always his fault. He was tired of being nice to everyone....he was just going to be an [censored] to everyone.

He then went out on the front porch with a bottle of rum.

After some time went by, I went out and sat down by him. He started going thru the whole "under a microscope" and "why am I always to blame?"

He was still crying.

After he calmed down, I explained that if they wrote the wrong routing number down, the request for payment went to the wrong bank. The money was never taken out of his checking. Etc..........

So, he called the card company back. Got it somewhat straightened out.

What I don't understand is why is he having such a hard time with this? Granted, I used to take care of all of our finances. But he's just taking care of HIS finances. He's always broke, and he makes twice the money I do.

And this breakdown..........what's up with that? Is he unstable? I think he may be.........not to mention that he quit taking his anti-D's the last time I kicked him out.

It's all about him. He doesn't even think about that it was May 24, 2004 when I got my lab tests back telling me I had herpes.......and this really got me down.

What's the point??????????

K <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Bump----

Will someone talk to this pathetic moron?

I know, I know, I'm not a pathetic moron, but I certainly feel like one. Just wondering.....how long will I let this go on?

I kept wanting to say to WH "these are the consequences of your actions"....but that would have really set him off.

K

K I really don't have any advice to give you just wanted to let you know someone else was out here and reading. Who knew that recovery would be so hard? I use to think if H would just move back home, everything would just go away and be better. Of course that's not how it happens, recovery is hard work with it's ups and downs. Just yesterday I broke down crying on my way home from work while I was thinking about stuff. But then I got home and H had made dinner and the baby was full of smiles and things suddenly looked brighter.

It sounds like your H has some immaturity issues. My H also has a temper and can act like a child when he is upset. Our MC has called him on this and told him he is acting immature. He still acts that way sometimes but I think he now stops and thinks about what she said when he does. Can you talk to the MC about this? Maybe you guys need individual sessions with the the MC to work through stuff that way first.

Hang in there, this is a roller coaster and if you are down now that must mean you will be on the way up shortly! Got to go give the baby a bath and put her to bed. Try to enjoy your weekend.

I am sorry, he sounds so pathetic...sick really, yes unstable....unless....

Is he just feeling sorry for himself? Was he embarrassed that he lost it on the phone with the credit card co.? Was he saying he doesn't really have the stick-to-it-ness to work on recovery? Has he been in contact with OW and just guilty?

It is hard to know how to react to what how he behaved. Was he manipulating...or just wanting you to feel sorry for him...mother him. You really don't know the dynamics of his relationship with OW and what EN's she was meeting...has ahe ever tried to tell you?

He has acted like this before. Is he drinking more than he used to...is this a behavior that he exhibits when he has been drinking...the pathetic..poor me type of drunk?

The post only caused me to ask more questions than to come up with anything that can be of any help. I still don't think that this would feel like real recovery to me...but, you know him better than we can know him here. We only know what you write about him...how you describe how he acts.

Sorry, I am not much help. The start of the holiday weekend and all..there will be less traffic.

My FWH would be this way often after D-Day (or D-Days). I am not sure what is causing your WH to react to stress in such a way, but mine says it was a ripple effect of having to keep up a lie that was desintegrating, destroying partitions that allowed him to live with no conscience break downs.

When the A is over a lot of consequences that they tried to hide from themselves start to appear. Sometimes they won't take the blame for everything they have done, and they make themselves the victim, as if the whole world had suddenly turned against them, so they don't have to deal with the fact that the one person responsible for the whole mess is them.

When my FWH would freak out about silly things I'd grab him, look him in the eye and tell him to get a grip. Then calmly I'd explain a very straight forward way to get out of a small mess in baby steps. To me it seemed like he had been rid of any common sense and had to be taught how to not panic all over again.

I tried to use a soothing, but firm voice, not talking to him like I was his mom, but more like somebody that knew what they were doing, even if I didn't. I guess their lives become a real mess, just like ours, just that they know its all on them, and that they could have avoided it all if only they had listened to their better judgement.

k,

You've popped in over on my threads to give a warm friendly shoulder, I"d like to do the same for you. I'm not really familiar with your background, though. I don't know if you are in Plan A,B or recovery.

In any case, it sounds like your WH has some issues and may need IC as well as AD therapy. Whatever. You can't change his behavior. You can't solve issues he has with himself.

What you can do is offer a safe and calm environment, the possibility for him to be part of a team, and little less lonely in this world.

But when you a faced with someone who is always a taker and never giving, sooner or later your "love bank" is depleted.

How are you doing there? Got any reserves?

hi k <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I sure wish I could say something useful, but I don't have a clue for you just like I didn't have a clue for me when I was going through that stage <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />.

The holiday weekend will be slow, but by Tuesday the posters who can tell the difference between withdrawal and other things will be back.

FWH is around this weekend so I will be playing bg at different times from now through Monday. Look me up if you want to play.

Take care k <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Please, please please...if your WS has not gotten back on his anti-depressant meds talk with him about getting back on them ASAP!!!!! His behavior and responses to minimal stressors sounds much like depression to me! If he is depressed, he's in a very dark place and probably does have problems focusing on anyone else's needs. This doesn't excuse him, but may help explain his difficulty in working on change, and feeling overwhelmed. Drinking alcohol only worsens depression, as it is a depressant.

If he already is back on his meds, he may need need a change is dosage or even a different type of AD.

Just my $.02 worth.

Thanks for all your replies.....

Had a fairly good weekend. WH and I went for a drive to the beach (mainly to promote the band) on Saturday.

Lots of small talk, a little bit of laughter, but pretty quiet on the way home. So I FINALLY launched into a serious talk.

I asked WH if he thought that MC was doing us any good. He replied that he didn't think it was going the way that I thought it should...

I asked him what he thought the way I was thinking it should go.....and he just said "I don't know". I said again..."but do you think it's doing us any good?" Again with "I don't know".

So I asked him a few things that were on my mind...."When you moved out, were you hoping that I would divorce you, or that I would find someone else?" He said "No. I moved so I wouldn't have so far to drive to work". (Yeah, right - I don't believe that for a second.)

"How much time did you really spend at your apartment?" WH " quite a bit." (Again, yeah, right....I don't believe that either.)

"How are you doing with NC?" WH "It's really hard on me...I think that's why I'm so down. I'm really depressed. I feel really ashamed for how harsh I was in that letter (NC letter). I just try to stay away from the office." (Didn't mention that I didn't send the NC letter, because he feels that he wrote it a knife point.)

Me: "I'm confused. Are you ashamed of the way you broke up with her, but not the way you treated me?"

WH (getting frustrated) "I told you before that I'll never get over the way I treated you."

WH: "See....talking like this....it doesn't make you feel any better, does it?"

Me: (with tears running down my face) "There are a lot of things I need to know....to heal.....so I can get past them. The things I can think of are probably so much worse that the truth.....that's why I need to ask."

We then talked about WH's flirting, and my jealousy. I've told him so many times that I'm not jealous of him anymore....and besides that, I finally realized that he is not flirting (although sometimes he is, and it feels inappropriate to me)---he's just personable.

He said that it finally felt like he could be himself around me....but he was sure it was going to come back to bite him someday.

So what's your take on this conversation? I'm proud of ME for bringing it up, no LB or DJ's......it looks like I was grilling him, but I asked the questions calmly, and sweetly.

I still don't think he's telling me the truth.....and did you notice how he never answered me about the NC?

Is he really in withdrawl?

K

if he was still in contact wouldnt he know you never sent the letter? or am i confused....lol

1. how to relate to a depressed spouse

and

2. how not to relate to a depressed spouse

Have you discussed this with anyone yet?

there is a way to do this and not feel sucked into the depression of your spouse

I think you should bring this up at your next counseling session

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Good thought Nikko......I guess if he was still in contact with OW, he would know I never sent the letter. You are not confused.....I just apparently don't think of some of these things.....LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Yes, Pep....this is a good subject to bring up in the next MC session.

The strange thing about this all, now that I think about it, is that as soon as I started talking and asking questions, WH put his hand over his heart, and said he was having chest pain.

Is he so stressed by any of this kind of talk, or is he trying again to manipulate me?

Am I trying to make things go the MB way......and not really look at the way they are going?

Reading Dr. Phil's book "Relationship Rescue" is making me question my motives, and whether I'm really trying to make WH "pay" for his A.....or really trying to heal our relationship.

My mind is reeling with questions about the A. But one thing I would really like to know is.....

[color:"red"] [/color] WHAT DID I DO IN OUR RELATIONSHIP TO FOSTER AN ATMOSPHERE FOR WH TO HAVE AN A? [color:"red"] [/color]

K

I think that your H needs to understand that these discussions will be painful and hard but that there is growth that follows comes with the pain. It is work to get through all this pain that the A created. You need honest answered to help you heal...but it will be difficult...that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

He wants to avoid the painful work. He'd rather escape pain either with CA, alcohol, or a tempting fix of some sort. I hope it isn't the OW.

Working through some of the MB books and materials brought up painful discussions and feelings that once done did help our growth and healing.

Hi Trix.....

I don't know how to get him to understand. I do want him to feel "safe" to tell me the truth.

I guess the best thing is just to tell him how I feel about asking the questions, and getting truthful answers. It's very hard, but I know I will not be able to piece together the problems of the past, unless I know how this all came about.

He "thinks" he is sooooo different from everyone else, that his mind works differently, and the way he thinks is different.

That may be so. But I think I am not so different from everyone else......and I need some answers (truthful) to my questions, so that I can really put things in perspective for myself.

So that I don't have to take on blame for everything, because right now I feel the whole thing is my fault. Even tho I know in my mind it is not....and that I am not responsible for WH's actions, and behaviors.

I want him to know that I accept him, and I want him to feel free to talk to me without judgement or feeling like I don't accept him.

K

you can only set up the environment

you cannot predict what your H will do in the way of his reaction to a safe environment

sometimes trying to manipulate how someone is going to feel can backfire on you

sometimes having expectations about how someone should respond is going to backfire on you

focus on your goal of being open and honest

if he rides that train with you, good for him, if he chooses not to ... you cannot force it

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

You are right again, Pep! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

(Now don't go runnin' around telling everybody that I said you were right - just accept it with that "quiet" dignity that I know you possess!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />)

The best way to foster an environment is to LIVE it!

I cannot expect WH to be forthright and honest about his feelings and thoughts if I am not myself. (A little self talk here)

My personal goal is to be open and honest. I am also trying to be forthright and up front with my feelings regarding the A - not to judge, or lay blame.

In truth, I still feel like it's all my fault. That I have been such a horrible person all these years that I drove him to it (even tho I KNOW that I am not a horrible person).

WH is responsible for his own actions and mistakes. And I will not manipulate him into loving me again. It just doesn't work......

Hope he wants to ride this train!!! Otherwise, I hope he just gets off at the next stop........

I am a very sorrowful, and very introspective person right now. Looking at myself makes me sad.....that I have let things go so far without seeing where I was really going. Does that make sense? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It's really hard to come to term with some truths about yourself.......

K

hi k <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"It's really hard to come to term with some truths about yourself......."

I agree. I think it's worth it, though, because of what we gain.

Besides, do you think that marital recovery is even possible without personal recovery for both of you? You're just doing your part k. Hopefully your FWH will learn by your example and do it himself too.

You're still fabulous you know....and getting more fabulous with each passing week. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"hard" in the sense of being difficult and painful ... is what I think you mean. I agree.

But imagine never going there and taking a look around? What a mess, huh?

Unless you find out what's wrong at the core of things, you remain powerless to make a positive change.

Keep going ... stop trying to blame yourself as much... rather attempt to understand your weaknesses. Big difference. OK?

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I remember feeling similarly to you about me feeling to blame and nto wanting to rock the boat by dwelling on the A too much. It was worse when the recoveries weren't real.

You will be able to move beyond the A questions etc. when you get the majority of them answered honestly.

Even in recovery I did still get a few of the 'I don't know' or 'can't remember' answers. But it really seemed like he was more willing to be honest and open/open book and vulnerable than other times.

The introspection and personal assessment and experiencing our own remorse is cathartic and important for our own healing and renewal.