No particular reason other than curiosity about other people's habits..so Gnome why

I place the specific boundary at kissing on the lips because, frankly, "I think kissing can be a beautiful thing, and a special way to show one's affection for another." Some treasures are precious enough to reserve for special purposes.

Kissing is a wide wide category of behavior, you would hold hands, but not fondle a breast...same hand. You (if have any) kiss your kids, your mom, various other family members, and may get a peck if you go to france or some such, but can't show similar affection to a girlfriend, same lips? It is hard to imagine liking someone enuf to consider marriage, but not liking them enuf to peck (on the cheek for example), or even a non-open kiss on the lips (for example). How do you show this person physical affection, if you treat them with no more physical (or even less) contact than you do other people in your life? Btw, there is no such a thing as non-sexual contact if you are romantically involved, hand-holding, hugging, everything must contain a component of desire, or why do it? Unless you hug and hold hands with everyone that crosses your path.

Not taking ya to task or anything, just curious why one would limit themself so severely. Also my gut feeling is it is impossible to actually craft a healthy relationship without natural expressions of romantic interest in all ways, including verbally, actions, and physically. The relationship ends up being about following fairly draconian standards. What do you think?

I also find it odd you define kissing so narrowly (equateing to a diamond ring), kissing is a huge huge realm. I too wouldn't give anyone a diamond "ring" except to marry, but I might very well give a girlfriend some sort of friendship "ring". All kisses are not diamonds... On the other hand, though I may brush lips fairly early on, I probably need to be exclusive (the first step toward serious marriage commitment), before I open my mouth much (so to speak). IMO physical manifestation of connecting is everybit as important to do, and essential to healthy relationship building, as um... I dunno, being honest, showing up on time, being respectful, POJA'ing, meeting various EN's etc.

Anyways, just some food for thought. I need to remember your standards, I catch a lot of flack simply cause I don't think pre-marital intercourse is ok!!!!

After reading these posts I feel like a Man-Whore....

RebornMan

What do you mean? Please post your opinion on this topic??? pleeeeeeease... we need some variety, and based on your post, you would provide some. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And with all due respect, Gnome, I really don't get the "no kissing until we're ready to get married" thing... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No offense, RM, but you made me LOL!

I don't think this thread is meant as a 'forum' for moral debates. Rather, I really meant it as an open discussion about what types of 'relationsips' are possible - within the context of dating for companionship and dating's sake.....vs the consideration of marriage and a life mate.

My best girlfriend and her husband divorced about 4 years ago. She went through a phase where she slept with many men - all of whom she had a sincere interest in. Do I think of her as a whore? No. I simply think of her as 'different' than I would be.

I won't lie and say that I have never had SF outside of marital committment. I had SF with 4 other people before my XH. I have friends who have had SF with over 20 people. Do I think I or they are whores? No. I just think we all have our different limits and comfort zones.

I really hope you don't see yourself that way.....I hope you are secure in your decisions. Otherwise, I truly wish you the best of luck in discovering why you are not <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. Fortunately (or not!) that's another thing I learned in counseling. Be accepting of your decisions - even if you feel they might have been wrong. If, in fact, you DO feel it was wrong, then learn from it. Life is about experience.

And BTW - I'm not laughing at you....I'm laughing only because I know sooooooooo very many people who have probably been more of a 'man-or woman-whore' than you.....and that's not AT ALL who I see them as.

knight50, I understand what you're saying about there being no such thing as non-sexual contact if you are romantically involved. That is exactly why I put quotation marks around the word "non-sexual" in my post.

I used the term "preference" in my post because I did not want to elevate my position to the level of a "standard." I do have standards - boundaries which are not negotiable, but kissing is not at that boundary. (If you want to know where the boundary lies, I'll just say that I will not go to "second base" until married. That is my personal standard.) My position regarding kissing on the lips is based on what kissing means to me. I have had only one romantic relationship in my life, and we did kiss before we talked seriously about marriage. I did not (and do not) feel guilty about that, but I also remember the effect it had on me and on the nature of our relationship. It intensified things in a way which I feel could easily have impaired my judgement about our suitability for each other. In the end, I think it worked out OK, because I still believe we were right for each other, but I just don't feel that it was the best way to develop our relationship.

However, if I do get involved in another romantic relationship, I won't go into it saying "I don't do kisses." I expect to communicate my preference and my reason for it, and I expect that we will negotiate if necessary.

But stopping before "second base" will remain non-negotiable. If a woman has a problem with that, then she's not the woman for me.

I meant it in a joking way LIT. I don't consider myself a "manwhore" at all but just from the other comments I have a huge difference of opinion.

Thats cool, to each his own. We all have to live with the decisions we make.

I have a so-called "buddy" and it doesn't stop me from doing anything in my life, nor hers.

We both have a butt-load of kids, no time for relationships and thoroughly enjoy each others company.

The two of us came to an agreement that our kids wouldn't know (3 of ours are in the same grade, same school, 2 in the same class) our kids are gone on opposite weekends so one weekend she gets a sitter and comes over for the night and the next I get one and go over for the night(not all night). We've known each other for 10-12 years and have no desire for a relationship.

Yeah, it's sexual but we are both safe and clean, both adults and both of us enjoy what we are doing. She has zero expectations from me and I have none from her. Call it what you will but we both talked and if one of us finds somebody and are thinking we want to explore it then we are through with our little arrangement. I'll cheer her on and she will do the same.

We don't talk outside of school stuff or kid stuff (them wanting to spend the night at each others houses) or parties at her house or mine. Normal adult friendship stuff as always.

So, right or wrong, moral or immoral, I don't really care. I respect her and she respects me and the two of us appreciate wht the other has to offer. I still date, she still dates.

I am a very sexual person and I'm not going to hide that away and masterbate for the next however many years it takes to find someone I want to be with for the rest of my life.

So I'm not making any moral judgements about what others choose to do, God Bless you all, I just can't live that way.

Like I said, we all have to live with the choices we make.

Obviously, this type of sitch has nothing to do with MBer's so don't confuse a "buddy" with applying MBer philosophy because I'm not trying to build a marriage or relationship.

Break out the 2X4's

LIT, your sitch is a little different but if he is honest and can be trusted, and doesn't expect anything from you or you from him then do what you are comfortable with. That is a big "if" though.

RebornMan

You might want to consider that if either you or her [or both] find someone you want to have a committed relationship with, that you also have NC from that point on. It is really not a good idea to continue your friendship with your former lover while being in a committed relationship with another. ANY contact with your former lover must always be in the presence of your girlfriend if you want to avoid creating any stress and disrespect for your lady.


No 2x4's from moi considering that your relationship with this woman is based on total honesty.

TMCM

I agree with you about the NC stuff(probable won't happen though), and with the idea of having GF/SO present when in communication. We will see each other and more than likely still go to all the same parties, we only live 2 streets away and have many of the same friends plus with kids being in the same classes.

Now if someone I found didn't like the idea well then NC it would be without question.

We were friends long before we were lovers, we are still friends and neither of us expect that too change.

Thanks TMCM

RebornMan

Here's my two cents. I fall on the side of "Sure, it's okay so long as you have complete honesty and solid boundaries." I think intercourse is probably fraught with emotional dangers, as is spending a lot of time together.

I once had a good friend who I would make out with. I consider that we had a terrific relationship. We were not in love, but we cared for each other, we were friends first.

Well, a 'buddy' is certainly better than hopping around from one torid affair to another.

We are all different. Some people will need that buddy to get through the pain and issues of divorce. Others, want nothing to do with a buddy or any other potential partner until they have worked things out themselves.

I do agree that being intimate with somebody can't help but raise the emotional level for most normal, decent people.

Justin,

I am mostly normal, and decent but in my case, we already were very good friends, respected and enjoyed each others company, known each other for years.

Here is the twist....

She doesn't want the headache, hassle and gameplaying. Like me she just wants somebody she can trust right now to fulfill certain needs and let her raise her kids.

Does the passion level rise on Friday nights? Yes. Emotionally? No, and I know she isn't sittong around all week wondering what I am doing just like I'm not either. We don't go out on "dates", just a movie at home, playtime then go home.

We are friends, enjoying our friendship.

Like I said before, judge however you please. We aren't hurting anybody including ourselves.

Nothing more, nothing less.

I find somebody I want to know better and thats when it ends. For her too.

RebornMan

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
That's great!

Reborn Man, I'd have to say if you and she are fine with it then it's fine.

Reborn Man,

What occurs between single, HONEST consenting adults is OK in my book <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You are a lucky man...not all of us will be so lucky to have a safe person with whom to "scratch our itches".


WNB