I don't know if I should be posting in this forum or not, but many of you helped me out a couple of years ago when my wife and I separated, I'm not sure what's going on now, but I do need help.

My wife told me about a week ago that she was unhappy in our marriage and thought we should go to counseling. I agreed. In our discussions it came out that she was talking with another man (same guy from 2 years ago) and I told her that I could not tollerate that; if she was going to continue talking to him she had to leave, so that night she "moved in" with a friend. Now she's looking at apartments and talking about separation agreements, etc.

She still says she loves me and wants to go to counseling and work this out, but her actions are saying differently. She now says she's happier than she's ever been, she feels "free" and like a huge pressure has been lifted from her shoulders. She doesn't answer my phone calls, doesn't return them and doesn't call me; although she continues to say that she wants to talk to me....

I've hit a wall, I don't know what to do or how to proceed.

When you get a free moment, please read my earlier threads/postings. That will give you some insights into what your wife is thinking and going through. Don't be surprised when she starts to say the really hurtful things like "I don't love you anymore" or "I can't see this working" or "I've never had this much fun in my life now that I'm free." The short of it is ... she is NOT herself and she is NOT thinking straight. Believe me, I've been there, done that, and am just now crawling out of that twilight zone hole.

What to do? If you want her back, start on Plan A and study up on Plan B. And, STICK WITH IT! For the time being, be the best H you can possibly be. Be supportive, loving, understanding and sensitive. If there are improvements you know you need to make in yourself, start working on those. Focus on what YOU need to do (not what you want HER to do). Look for ways to improve yourself and your M. Even though she may not admit it, she's watching. She sees it. She'll remember it.

After a while, she'll start to compare against her new life (whether there is a OP in it or not). She'll starting doubting and second-guessing herself. She will then waver and go into what I call the "limbo-hell" and be absolutely consumed by this misery of trying to make a decision to stay or leave her M. If she's smart (which I was not), she'll go back to the man who's shown her the compassion, the support, the sensitivity and the understanding that no other person could possibly offer without unconditional love. If not, then pull the rug out from under her (Plan B). Let her get the reality kick that knocked me on my rear and made me see the light.

Note: after 1 1/2 years, I finally woke up, broke everything off w/ the OM, demanded NC, begged for my H to take me back with my tail between my legs, and am working like mad trying to piece everything together for my M. This just happened last week. Additional note: Believe it or not, the OM was a good man, and the other life was not so bad, and my EA/PA didn't "die of a natural death." It's because my H and his amazing, unfaltering love for me that made me realize just how stupid I was and what I was willing to walk away from.

If you feel your M is worth it, take what I say to heart. It will work for you too.

Best wishes,

Whisper

This is what worries me.

Over 2+ years of so-called Recovery and it was all a LIE. Typical WS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Ticks me off to no end. Once a cheat always a cheat, I'm starting to really believe this statement.

Please be honest with us. Did anything happen in your so-called recovery where the two of you worked on your marriage?

What did both of you do? I would guess not much, except for more conflict avoidance.

I'm debating this week if I should waste one more hour trying to save my marriage.

Your insight would be helpful.

I can't wait until your wifes life comes crashing down, you should too.

Whisper, thank you. I know the words you speak are true because she has told me so many times over the past couple of years that she can't believe what a good husband and friend I was to her during those times.

I really do believe her new friends are a major part of this, and possibly her bi-polar. She's began hanging with new friends the past few months (maybe 6) and ALL of them are either separated, getting divorced, or constantly talk about how horrible their husbands / marriages are. The one friend that she had with a happy life and marriage is all but ignored now; and she now says that she never liked her anyway.

I've been down this road, just hoped I'd never have to go through it again... Thank You

TA, harsh words, but they may be very true. Sometimes the things we need to hear the most are the hardest to hear.

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"Please be honest with us. Did anything happen in your so-called recovery where the two of you worked on your marriage?"

"What did both of you do? I would guess not much, except for more conflict avoidance."
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We really didn't do anything. We both went to individual counseling for a while, then we stopped. That's one of her issues she brought up the other day was that we never followed through with anything...

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"Ticks me off to no end. Once a cheat always a cheat, I'm starting to really believe this statement."
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I have to disagree with you there. You see, I've always been the one that "had someone waiting"; maybe not PA, but at least EA. When we reconcilled two years ago I pledged to her, and to myself that I would commit myself to our marriage and remain faithful. So, I believe that if a person truly desires to remain faithful they will; it's all up to the individual.

As far as weather you should spend any more time on your marriage I can't say. YOU are the only one who knows that; I believe very strongly in "For Better or for Worse" and a lifelong commitment, but to be brutally honest with myself I'm not sure how long, or how many more times, I can go through this...

Q - Did anything happen in your so-called recovery where the two of you worked on your marriage?

While I had the OM as a safety net, I NEVER whole-heartedly worked on my M. This is NOT the case today. So, no, there was no time where both of us worked jointly on our M. It was usually my BH pushing and my backing away. Recovery for us started last Thursday when I asked him for forgiveness, begged him to take me back and requested that we work on our M together. This is the first time it's happened since I walked out 1 1/2 years ago.

Q: Once a cheat always a cheat.

I do not (even for 1 second) believe in this statement. I, for one (and thousands of others who have gone through similar experiences), can assure you this will NEVER happen again. I will never, ever, ever allow myself to put my H, my friends and my family through this kind of anguish and hurt, not to mention the self-loathing, depression, anxiety and pain that I've brought on myself.

Q - What did both of you do? I would guess not much, except for more conflict avoidance.

Actually, my BH did everything he could, including walking away as his last resort for self-preservation. Unfortunately, it took me 1 1/2 years to realize what I want out of life and am now willing to do whatever it takes to make it work. We have our first date on Wednesday and joint MC session on Thursday this week, and I am elated!

TA - I can easily sense your anger, and you have every right to be angry. You have been cheated on and lied to, and all the while you've been waiting for 1 lousy answer so that you can love your wife again.

Here's my very difficult question to you ... have you, in your heart, know that you've done everything you can? To improve yourself and make yourself the husband that your wife can love and be proud of? Think about this for a moment. If the answer is an honest and emphatic 'yes', then, perhaps you should walk away. And, I don't mean just acting like you're walking away and glancing back ocassionally to see if she comes back. Walk completely away. Yes, this may pose a significant risk that she may not come back, regardless. But, at least then you know you've done everything, right? No regrets? But, if the answer is no ...

My biggest fear was living with the regret of not giving it my all for the rest of my life. What's yours?

~ Whisper

TM94,

Long time no hear. I'm sorry to hear about your latest developmnet.

Please don't go to counseling until she agrees to end all contact with the OM and writes him a NC [no contact] letter which you will personally mail to him. Going to counseling while she is still in contact with the OM is extremely detrimental to your marriage. Why? Because her heart and mind will not be committed to do the hard work to save/rebuild the marriage via a marital recovery plan ala MB. I can almost guarantee you that after only a few sessions, she is going to say 'I tried but it's hopeless' to try to justify to herself and others that she did an honest effort to save/rebuild the marriage. So until she commits to NC, tell her NO to marriage counseling.

Remember how scared she was when you acted cool and collected during the time she was getting ready to leave you and get her own place? I like to suggest that you show her again that side of you, that demonstrated to her that no matter what the ultimate of the marriage was going to be, not only would you make it but you would thrive very well indeed. Whisper28, a FWW, said the following here. Remind you of someone you know?

I'd like for you to consider reacquainting yourself with Michelle Weiner Davis's Divorce Busting 180 Degree List and with the following: 7 Tactics To Use During an Affair and 12 Tactics To Avoid During An Affair.

I hope that you do give these words some serious thought.

TMCM

Ready for plan B?

L.

Yup, skip all the crap I have been throught hte alst 6 months (since d-day #2 & #3) and go Plan B...wished I had listened sooner, could have saved myself some heartache, some $$$ and oh, yeah, that STD!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

If she is "talking" to him "again" what makes you think it ever really stopped?!

Mine didn't!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

TMCM, I was wondering if there were any of my old "Rocks" that would still be around and remember me; it's good to hear the voice (using imagination here) of an old friend.

Over the past 2 days I've become convinced that their relationship is MUCH more than simply talking on the phone as she admits to. It's my opinion, based on her actions and behavior (it's mirrioring her behavior last time, so much so it's almost scary) that she just wants to get into a counselors office to tell me she wants a divorce. I only say that because now all of the sudden she's "afraid of me" and believes that I am "stalking her". It's amazing what goes through their minds.

I just glanced through the links you posted, and you know what? They are absolutely what I need to be doing / thinking and should have been for the past 2 years. One of my wifes complaints is that neither one of us followed through on our commitments after last time and she's right. Somehow she blames it all on me, but she's absolutely correct; we quit going to counseling, quit going to our IC's, quit doing things together and eventually quit talking.... AGAIN

Thank you for your time and kind words, the marriage counseling things seems to be a sticking point across the board so I may have to reconsider that one...

Orchid, Am I ready for Plan B? I don't think I am quite yet; I still have some more improvements I would like her to see before we hit that "wall". But, am I capable of moving to Plan B? Absolutely! Last time I didn't think I was, this time I have vowed to myself and informed her that I WILL NOT be her doormat (hence me telling her if she was going to continue contact with OM she had to leave), I will be strong, I will fix myself (again) and I will get through this with or without her.

TNT, I feel so bad for you, truly I do. What makes me think she ever quit talking to him? SHE changed, she became happier, she began loving me again. I know they have been talking for longer than what she admits because her moods and actions have been changing over the past few months. However, I chalked all of the change to her needing to have her meds adjusted (she's bi-polar) and didn't realize until just a few weeks before her announcement that it was something more than that. So, yes I do believe that she had NC with him for nearly a year and a half, but now I also believe that she's much more involved with him than she's willing to admit, even to herself.

Well, today is the first full day of Plans A, B & C combined, not exactly sure what I'm supposed to be doing, but I'm following the guidlines suggested and applying those that I feel meet our situation. When I do see or talk to my wife I'm extremely upbeat and happy, but responding to her e-mail's, etc. it's cut & dry to the point.

Last night I helped her pick up a bed for her new place, went to dinner and dropped the bed off at my place because she isn't ready for it yet. While I was on the phone talking with our kids (their visiting grandparents right now) she went around the house taking down pictures, etc. that she was taking back to her place.

She looked exhausted and worn out, when she left she gave me a big long hug and kiss goodbye. Today, I've received 3 e-mail's from her, nothing special just funny forward type stuff. I sent her a list of the bills as she asked for, but haven't heard back from her yet. It's killing me not hearing her voice and knowing that she's ok or not, but I know I have to be strong and do what's right.... right?

If it gives you any encouragement, I can tell you what got me to turn around ... I recall seeing my H shortly after our D discussion. He looked radiant, handsome, happy. He had been working out and going to tanning beds. He even bought himself a new, spiffy wardrobe. He was always busy going out and doing things with his friends, and he rarely answered my calls - not to mention the fact he NEVER called me anymore. He just sends "business emails" (i.e. bills, taxes, etc.) When I moved my stuff out of the house, he didn't seem to care. Wasn't even there. In fact, he was at a happy hour. He placed our house on the market and put a deposit down on a swanky downtown condo. He even separated our finances COMPLETELY. Occassionally, he would even ask how far along I was with filing the D papers and if I needed any help. (God, that irked me.) The "last straw" came when I had lunch w/ him the day he started his new job. He came without his wedding ring. I almost vomitted right there at the table. That was enough for me to rethink my horrible ways and turn around post haste.

I know deep down it hurt him more than anything, but because he did stay strong and true to himself, it made me realize what an idiot I've been to have passed up something this wonderful for this long.

Hope my very recent story from this FWW helps you stay strong!!!

Good luck!

TM94,

I hope you read whisper's great post above and take her wise words seriously for they are proof positive that ,with many affairs, the principles embodied in those links I gave you do work. And even if your M cannot be saved/rebuilt, then by following those principles, you will be well on your way on the road to personal recovery and a possible relationship with another woman after the divorce is finalized.

TMCM

Whisper, thank you so much! You give me hope where I otherwise see none. I know this is going to be long and very difficult, but I've done this once before and I know this time I will do it better. I hope and pray everyday that my wife will come back; I Love Her and do not want our life together to end. But, I also know that if she does not come back I will move on with MY life and become much happier and more productive.
Again, THANK YOU

Just out of curiosity, do you have children? I was wondering if that was a factor in your mind. My wife seems to believe that I should keep everything exactly the same to make things easier on the kids.

TMCM, believe me I am reading every word of Whisper's replies with extreme interest. I hope that my marriage will survive this again and we will be stronger. We were (or so I thought) so much stronger after last time, we loved each other so much more and did so much unselfishly; now I'm not sure.

Your links are extremely helpful, I have them printed out and sitting next to my PC so I can continually refresh myself and stay on track. As for another relationship; at this point I cannot see that happening, but I'm sure many in my situation say the same thing. THANK YOU

TM94 -

We do not have kids. In fact, our MC said that kids usually is the "glue" that keeps couples together. I returned to my H because of my H, nothing else. I can't imagine what it'd be like to go through what we've been through the past year or so if kids were involved.
{{{TM94}}}

If you don't mind, I'd like to make a couple of observations re: your wife's suggestion that you "keep everything exactly the same to make things easier on the kids." I think this is a very selfish and hypocritical request. What's easier on the kids is to have their mommy and daddy together *happy* and NOT having mommy running off with some guy and setting the most awful example possible. With that said, what kind of example would you be setting, as a dad, who would condone such a behavior? I'm not saying this to provoke you. Not in the least. I'm saying this so that you will stay strong - if anything, for the sake of your kids!

Whisper, I agree with you and feel the same way. Unfortunately "Mommy" isn't in her right mind at this point, but believes she is "doing the right thing for the kids" by leaving. In her mind she says if she stays and becomes more and more miserable it will have a significant impact on the kids.
This is what keeps me strong, the fact that I know she is taking the easy out right now and thinking only of herself. So, that leaves me to take care of myself (physically and emotionally, I was just involved in a VERY SERIOUS motorcycle accident less than 2 weeks ago) and my children. I cannot and will not condone her actions, that is why she is out of the house; but I continually second guess myself and wonder if I made the right decision. Maybe I should have started Plan A and allowed her to stay in the house so she could see the changes. I know in my mind that can't be true, but the desperation in my heart is telling me that "I" closed the door on "Her" by telling her she had to leave. Does this make any sense?

While all of this is going throught my mind I've been thinking about our marriage vows, "For Better or Worse", "For Richer or Poorer", "In sickness and in Health". She has deserted me at my absolute lowest point. I have been battling more and more with depression since I found out 2 months ago that I am loosing my job in September, our finances are in shambles right now and it's a constant struggle just to put food on the table and keep the electricity on, and the kicker to the whole thing was my accident. Several states away, hit on the interstate while riding my motorcycle; everyone thought I was dead, and it took her 3 days to make the 10 hour drive to come and get me... THIS IS NOT THE PERSON I WANT TO SPEND THE REST OF MY LIFE WITH!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

First of all, we ALL second-guess ourselves - that's what makes us human. Here's something interesting about my H and me ...

If you really want to know - I left b/c of self-preservation. I was absolutely miserable in my M and didn't think there was any other alternative (unless we went straight for a D) as my H refused to work on anything with me. He never thought I'd ever leave him. Note: the OM didn't come into the picture until after I had already moved out, not that it makes an A any better. The good news is my H started to change his ways. Initially, he made some tall promises and temporary changes b/c he desperately was trying to get me back. Once he realized that I wasn't budging, he started to make real changes for himself. That's when I took notice and started to gain respect for him. *Note that even though I wasn't living w/ him, I noticed. The changes were small and slow to come at first, then they became bigger and more obvious as time went on. But, the key is I DID NOTICE.

OK, fast forward a few months to when he/we started to press for a D. You know the rest from my earlier posts - he wrote me off, and I came crawling back.

The interesting thing here is that even though neither of us subscribed to Harley's principals, the result is still the same: we, as individuals, did what we needed for self-preservation; we figured out how to be better individuals. When that happened, the other took notice and made lasting changes that will either 1) create a stronger foundation for our M or 2) make us stronger and better individuals for future R's. The worst case scenario didn't look so bad then. Luckily, we went w/ option 1. But, if we chose option 2, things would still be OK.

Re: your comment "THIS IS NOT THE PERSON I WANT TO SPEND THE REST OF MY LIFE WITH!!"

Since nobody else has walked in your shoes, no one can make that decision for you. Just know that whatever you do decide, your decision will be justified and supported here. With this, I go back to TMCM's suggestion - be strong. Make the changes that will make YOU a happier, better person. If you stay true to this, you can't go wrong.

My heart goes out to you, TM94. I know you'll do the right thing - for you AND your kids!!