The other day, I unwittingly came across a particular "detail" of the A.

I was completely unaware of what it was, and would never questioned it.

Patriot was present when I came across it, and left the room shortly after. I know he knew that I would never have known what it was. I thought he left the room to finish yardwork, as that was what he was doing before he came in the room. I now know that he left the room to collect himself.

He returned a few minutes later and sat down with me. He told me he had something to talk to me about...about the "detail".

He gently explained to me what it was.

I know that can't have been easy for him to do, particularly given his extreme difficulty facing confrontation with women. I can't imagine how hard it must have been for him, and how fearful he must have been of my reaction.

His fears were realized, as I didn't take it well. I didn't handle it well at all. I'm still not handling it well. It hurts like hell. Here, I thought I had grown. I haven't. Out of my own pain, I have LB'd him like you wouldn't even believe. He hasn't even reacted to it. He has shown extreme patience these last few days.

I wanted to apologize to him last night for my behavior, but I just couldn't. It wouldn't have been genuine.

I am, however, proud of him. He was willing to face something from his past, even though he knew he wasn't "caught". I really would never have known if he hadn't come back in the room and told me. I know that took an immense amount of maturity, and bravery on his part. His fear of confrontation with women has been one of his biggest obstacles and he faced it head on. That is growth.

In MC the other day, he stepped up and led the conversation to talk about his childhood, and the pain of that...again, facing his fears. He has taken on such a strong leadership role in our family. He reads to me from the bible every night before bed, even if I'm not being very nice to him.

While I am not proud of his past behavior, I can say that I am proud of the strength he now uses daily to become the leader and the man he wants and is choosing to be.

I just wanted to share that.

{{{Frozen}}} I'm amazingly proud of both of you! This is a big step in the right direction for both of you to heal and recover, and I'm glad you were able to see it. It must've been so hard for him to come clean like that. Congrats! I hope my H and I can be there some day too. Thanks for the story!

Frozen, I agree with Whisper... This is a big step for both of you and I think both you and Patriot can feel very proud of yourselves. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for sharing!

Blessings,
Suzet

Whisper and Suzet,

Thank you for your replies.

The pride or glory belongs not to me, but to Patriot. As stated previously, I did not handle things well...not even close.

He, on the other hand, continues to trudge forward, despite adversity. I wanted to publicly recognize him for that. He has become a strong spiritual leader in our marriage and a brave man, who faces his fears.

Well, if you did not toss the puter out the window and run over it with a truck, I'd say you handled the discovery well enough Froz! Really!

Not every betrayed spouse has to look at the foul evidence you were inadvertently presented with !!!

Cut yourself some slack here.

Know what Pep would have done back in the day ????

I would have unplugged it and demanded a fresh new one unstained by such pornography .... not too late for that is it Froz?

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

And I think Patriot deserves a nod for honesty, but certainly no medal of honor for having allowed such a dangerous filthy item on your home computer.

puke Patriot ... just puke! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Well actually, Pep, I opted not to take it out on the computer, but on my husband instead.

If I were to call the way I have reacted LB'ing, it would be a gross understatement. If the Harley's witnessed my behavior, they would have to come up with a new term.

I may look sweet, innocent, and harmless in real life but an emoticon doesn't exist to display to you what I must look like with such hatred and venom spewing out of my being. It's not pretty, I can assure you.

What I saw was foul, for sure. It was damaging to me and will forever be seared into my brain. However, it in no way justifies my horrid behavior (that I'm still not "big" enough to apologize for).

I spent most of the evening last night talking to ncwalker about forgiveness...not necessarily forgiveness towards Patriot, but forgiveness towards all the people in my life who have hurt me, and particularly forgiveness towards the man who hurt my beautiful daughter. What a tall order that is, but it's on my mind.

I think we can all agree that no medal of honor should be handed to Patriot for his past behavior.

He may "deserve" no more than a nod by you for his honesty.
From me, he gets more than a nod. Not necessarily for his honesty...that was simply the method he used. The true source of my pride in him is the fact that he bravely chose to face his shortcomings and fears and to change. I view that as using decisive action to back up the words he has been telling me and others. It says to me that he not only feels remorseful, he's willing to make the changes necessary to succeed at Recovery and to be the man he wants to be.




Just curious...what would Pep do today?

I told you ... I'd get myself a new puter unstained by the filth.

Pep

My misunderstanding...I thought you said that's what you would have done back in the day. Thanks for clarifying.

UUGGGHHH,

I can only IMAGINE how you reacted. I told SH that it was not pretty when my H and I really argued, I can really LB and AO with the best/worst of them. Spitting venom, yep BTDT, tore up the t-shirt and threw it at him ( or strangled him with it)! Sorry Froz, can't really blame ya'. That must have been awful.

But I will acknowledge that Patriot did GREAT!!! I cannot see my H doing any of that. To tell you the truth, when not even necessary - Well, that is HUGE! Esp. about such an awful thing.

Good for him! And Froz, I agree, don't be so dang hard on yourself. What would anyone do? Move forward and learn, like you are.

{{{froz}}}for your pain and for seeing the "good" in this. That is what we all need to do.

jls

jls,

Thank you for your support.

What is AO and BTDT???

The reason for being so hard on myself is that I have been down this road before (LB'ing and such) and thought I had moved forward, learned and altered this negative behavior. Heck, I even preached against it to others! I deserve to be admonished!!!! Where are the 2X4's when ya need 'em???

As for Patriot, if you only KNEW his history with confrontational women and the strength it took to face me with that information...

AO= Angry Outbursts

BTDT= Been There Done That!

whack = halfhearted swing There, feel better?

Thanks jsl, for being my MB dictionary!


Come on...give it all ya got! I deserve it!!!

I'm sorry, froz, I jjusst can't get into it, not grown-up girls anyway <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Hi, frozen and patriot.

A word to the wise. You two must stop hurting each other. Recovery is hard enough without adding to the problem.

What that means is simple.

Frozen, get your anger under control - all the time. Anger will drive a wedge into a relationship quicker than just about anything else.

Patriot, clean up the slime trail. Go through the computer, email, closet shoe boxes, anywhere you may have left a memento, and trash it. If that means copying off the 'good stuff' from the computer, then a format and fresh install, then do it.

You two don't need to come across this stuff again. Frozen, you don't need to see what he throws away.

All the best,
Gimble

Well, if my wish was to feel appropriately admonished...I"m defnititely feeling it now!

OK. So I have come back because someone said Froz had a neat post and I should look at it. And I am reminded of why I needed the break. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I will, at least, throw a few 2x4s around.

======
Froz – The only bad thing you did here, the ONLY thing, that would warrant a smack (and a SMALL one) is posting so many details if you did not POJA that with Patriot. Could have made him feel uncomfortable.

Pat – (who didn’t post) The only thing he did wrong in this was POSSIBLY be a little untactful about how he explained the picture. And Froz did not comment on that at all, so we really don’t know how he delivered it.

You two did just fine. And I’ll show you why in a bit.
======
SOME of you who have posted deserve the crack upside the head. So here it comes.

Why the focus on Pat’s transgression? Why the focus on Froz’s anger? Reminds me of a Jerry Springer audience, all keyed up over the nasty details and not giving a whit about what transpired.

So let me tell you how I see it. And I am a man who reads his Bible and tries to absorb what it says. Not bent on building my case about when the earth started, or did Jacob ACTUALLY wrestle with an angel. A man who focuses on the parts of the Bible that tell me how to be a better man. Who is by no means perfect at it, but tries hard.

Patriot DOES deserve a medal. He didn’t have to own up to anything. He defended his wife’s honor with his honesty. Anyone have a husband who visits the strip clubs on a business trip? Are you SURE? I’d BET that half of you wives who are saying “my husband wouldn’t do that” are wrong. How do I know? I’ve BEEN on business trips with your husbands. Supposedly Christian men included. Absolutely deplorable. These men think “What the old lady doesn’t know, won’t hurt her.” Which is ENTIRELY false. It dishonors her, whether she knows it is going on or not. Sanctity of the eyes, and all that.

So what did Patriot do? (And I understand he put himself in this situation, but he has been on here countless times saying it was wrong. We’ve covered that ground.) He saw something that dishonored his wife and owned up to it. And he didn’t have to. He KNEW it would be painful for her and probably expected it to be painful to him. And he did it anyway. If I were Froz, that kind of honesty would go a long way in rebuilding my trust. That showed integrity beyond what most men would have done. He could have said nothing, then quietly come in a deleted it later. But he owned it and was transparent. He walked out radical honesty. And BTW, they DO give you a medal for that kind of behavior. I, myself, have a few.

And what of Froz? We have a few saying “Don’t be too hard on yourself.” To that I say HOGWASH. Patriot’s behavior, at best, could be given as a reason for her anger, NOT an excuse. There is no excuse for lashing out to hurt someone just because you are hurting. A common mistake we ALL make. When is that OK?

And to those who are saying “Don’t be angry.” I would ALSO say HOGWASH. What good is THAT doing her? She apparently has a problem with it. It is like looking at an alcoholic and saying “Don’t be drunk.” That will do them a lot of good.

So let’s look at what Froz has done from a Biblical perspective.


Right out of the Proverbs 31 woman we so glibly fling around here. She was proud of her husband. Humbled herself in the admission of her AO to let us know what he faced, and yet he still honored her with honesty. She wants him to be respected at the city gate. Because he is trying and walking out what it takes to restore the marriage. Even if she was still mad at him, I don’t know, she came on here out of obedience and did this.

Well done, Froz. Good obedience. I doubt many would show Pat’s integrity.

But then look at verse 25. She also has strength and dignity. Why? She came on here and most of what she said was a confession of her anger and how wrong it was. And it WAS. And that takes strength and dignity to do that. And what does the Bible say about that?


She used her strength and dignity, recognizing that her anger was wrong and came on here and confessed it. Because she wants to be healed from it. Now I would ask, which one of you came back and said “I hear ya froz, and you are forgiven, and I will pray for your healing in this?” (BTW, froz, *I* hear you, and will pray for your healing.)

Which posts to them were actually useful? Which posts just picked apart the details of what was said pointing out the holes? Which had encouragement for what they did RIGHT? Are we a group of marriage builders? Or marriage analysts, who just comment on what transpires?

To those who did, thanks. To those who didn’t, why did you bother? All you did was sow confusion into their relationship by pointing out some problems with the little things in what happened. She seemed happy with her situation. In fact, her last words were “Just wanted to share that.” Not “Did I do anything wrong?”

NCWalker - who is probably taking this too personally. If I have, sorry. I'm leaving now.

ncwalker,

Thank you for coming out of your self-imposed "exile" (like a true Jedi Master) to give us such scriptually-based insight and much needed perspective.

You are absolutely 100% RIGHT! I should have POJA'd that post with Patriot. I didn't. Why? Ignorance. Hopefully, it is obvious that I did not set out to deliberately harm him with my post. The truth is that it didn't even occur to me. I asked him (before he read your post) if the details of what I posted made him uncomfortable. He said he cringed a little. OUCH! That hurt me, too. I would NEVER want him to do something that made me cringe...even a little. I feel pretty badly about that. I had sort of hoped that my post to him would have impact in that it would surprise him, so to speak, and make him feel good knowing that I recognized his accomplishments and that they meant something to me. So, out of a desire to please him, I was careless and showed disrespect and a disregard for his feelings.

I won't kick myself all over the place for it. I'm great at that when I feel it's necessary, but I immediately edited my original post, and apologized to him for not being more mindful and considerate of his feelings. He said he forgave me, so I'll let that one go.

Just to satisfy those inquiring minds...Patriot was not in the least untactful when he explained the picture. Although, it would be more helpful to me in the future (should such a situation should arise again) if he would carefully think out what he is going to say to me beforehand.

He re-entered the room and said "I have something to talk to you about - about that picture". He then paused for what seemed like an eternity to me. I'm not sure if he understands what I was feeling at that point. I can't even describe it. It might be something akin to what I would imagine a murder victim might feel at the moment they realize they are about to die at the hands of their assailant. For him to drag that moment out was torture. I do understand it is probably pretty difficult to get the words out, but I prefer my pain to be doled out quickly, as opposed to the slow, torturous, forboding method. Yep, sure do hate the torturous pauses. <shudder>

While I did say before that I was proud of him for facing his fears, the way you put his action into words hit home for me. He chose not to "dishonor" me (further) and allow me to walk around clueless as to what that photo was. Hmmmmm...pretty powerful. I hadn't thought of it, or at least had the clarity to see that for what it was. What a strong statement of "honor" his action seems when put like that. I would say that sometimes the unwillingness to dishonor someone is honoring them, in and of itself.

Thank you very much, Patriot, for deliberately honoring me by making the choice NOT to dishonor me. I truly appreciate that. It's pretty powerful to me.

Okay...on to the issue of my 2X4. Yes, I know that I deserve it. I was wrong. I knew it was wrong when I was doing it (for two long days). It bothers me that I can't honestly apologize to him for it. Funny how I feel the most sorry for not feeling sorry! What's up with THAT???

The real problem here for me is this...I don't know how to stop! I could easily sit here and say "sure, you're right, ncwalker...I was wrong to LB and I won't do it again." But that wouldn't be true. I said that before, yet there I was back again, spitting venom with a vengeance!

I look back on the situation and I can honestly say that I could NOT STOP MYSELF! I say this not to excuse my behavior, but because I genuinely want to correct it and don't know how. To that you may say..."It's really quite elementary, Froz - all you have to do is shut your MOUTH!"
Hmmmmm...didn't feel that elementary to me at the time.

I have NEVER had a problem with anger. I'm not thoroughly convinced that that is what I was feeling, though I'm sure it looked that way. What I was feeling was a pain so intense I felt like I couldn't even see straight!!!! I felt unprotected! If he'd have told me details before now, I wouldn't have been blindsided and had the scab of what little amount of healing I had begun ripped off!

On the other hand...HA! It's no mystery why he's reluctant to do so. Even I don't know if I could handle it now! I truly wish that he would have been forthcoming earlier on, when I was already bleeding in pain. Like I said before, I'd rather just get it over with than have it dragged out slowly and torturously. But, it's too late to do anything about that now.

Back to the issue...how DO I stop? Run around the block? Calmly tell him I need to be alone? I actually tried that one, but it came out more as "Get the hell out!" I realize there is no simple answer here, but I don't honestly think I could have the clarity of mind to do that at that point in time.

Hmmmm...(am I rambling or what?) Maybe the answer would be to ask him to allow me to make a decision on how I will react BEFORE he tells me. Maybe that way, it would be an automated response...a more logical reaction as opposed to an emotional one (which is inevitable if I don't have another option already in place). I'll have to think on that one.

Again, I'm not excusing my behavior. I am simply trying to find a solution that will actually be effective, instead of being that alcoholic trying to assert "willpower" not to drink (to expand on your analogy).





Thank you, ncwalker. Thank you for praying for my healing. If anyone else also "hears", please pray for my healing, as well. I need it desperately - much more than you may know. Most of the time these days, this load is more than I can carry and I am feeling weaker and weaker by the day. It's just SO HEAVY! I don't know if I can do it. I feel so empty and hopeless that I don't even know if I WANT to.

I don't know if that is perhaps the "wrong" way to feel or not, but it's the truth. I don't how long I can do this. It's just SO MUCH to try to choke down and I fear that I have definitely bitten off more than I can chew. I see absolutely no joy in my future and months and months of feeling this way are really taking their toll.

Thank you for your prayers, your insight and your willingness to add some calmness to our chaos.

Bless you,

Froz

Frozen,

Perhaps it would help you to realize that anger is considered a "secondary" emotion driven by primary ones such as: fear, pain, frustration, etc. If you took the time to realize what drove your anger, was it pain? Then you will often be able to deal with it differently. Did your pain go away when you say your H in pain? Does his pain heal your pain? I doubt it. So getting angry (transferring the pain) was not very productive was it???

YOu do have an anger problem, that much is clear. Perhaps seeing someone about it will help, but in light of that before you go off on Pat, perhaps identifying was is driving it, will help you deal with it. If you were in great pain, it might of been much more productive for the both of you to acknowledge that you hurt so bad you cannot breath and ask for his help, or to be left alone. Then later talk about your pain with Pat.

There are a variety of tactics but it seems to me you cannot address your anger until you understand what drives it and why you give yourself permission to do something you would NOT tolerate from another human being on the planet.

Just some thoughts. I hope some of them help.

God Bless,

JL

I am completely aware what the primary emotion is. It's pain. I feel it so strongly it would be virtually impossible not to recognize what it was.

I'm not convinced I have an anger problem, so much as I am convinced I am having some serious "pain management" issues. I'm not sure what you are picturing, but I am not screaming, throwing things and throwing a temper tantrum. I'm sure it probably feels worse than that to Patriot. Maybe he would rather I truly FREAK OUT in that manner. What it is, is actually an extreme display of intense emotion that comes out in the form of sarcastic daggers.

As I stated before, it matters not to me whether I am being productive when I am immersed in the situation. It truly feels all-consuming. It does matter to me before, as it matters afterwards. I do not want to continue this pattern of behavior. What I want is a workable solution.

I'm trying to be realistic when I say that I can sit here all day long and say I won't do it again, when it's pretty likely that without a definite course of "pain management", I WILL probably react in the same manner.

Sheer willpower isn't cutting it for me.

I am interested, however, in exploring and getting feedback on the idea of setting up a plan before a situation arises and what elements for that plan might be effective...