Hey all, I need links / references to any good material on fear of commitment in relationships.

Specifically, when someone is post-divorce for a couple of years & continues to find it difficult to give their heart to another in commitment.

Thanks in advance.
High Flight

Sorry I don't have links, but I'm thinking that not willing to make a commitment post-divorce by a couple of years is not necessarily fear of commitment, but maybe genuine caution. I'm 3 years post-divorce, and, while I've had my emotional attachments, I've not wanted to make any kind of commitment to any one up until recently. I finally feel like I am "whole" again and willing and able to commit if the right person comes along.

Different people heal at different rates, and a couple of years post-divorce is NOT a long time.

I will be watching this one, as I need the same help.

While I'm only 1.5 years into this and over 2 starting with separation, I feel like this is a problem for me.

Good question High Flight!!

Karona

You know, I'd like someone to define Fear of Commitment. We toss it around all the time. Mostly, it's only applied to peole who don't seem to want to get married, or maybe even be in an exclusive relationship. Interestingly, the term usually comes up when two people are dating and one decides either not to move to the next level or to leave.

Wouldn't people who were truly afraid of commitment change jobs often? Rent rather than own their homes? and on down the line?

Maybe it's really fear of intimacy we're worried about. I don't see High Flight or Karona or me being afraid of committing in other areas of life. Or maybe it's a case of one person "just not being that into" the other.

You have a point Greengables.

I'm very committed to my daughters, they are top priority in my life. And, if I do something, job or volunteer, I put all into it.
So, I would say you must have a strong point on this.

I think for me, in all honesty, I'm very afraid of messing up, again.
I'm scared to death to one day make a committment, and then find out down the road, that I made a mistake.

OOOOHHH, I do rent though. HaHa, had to throw that in there.
Only because of the life change since the divorce. But, I have been here for 1 yr 7mos. Surely that accounts for something.

I hope you are doing well gg, and that things are progressing well for you.

Karona

A Few articles for us to get started with:

the start

Sunny

Hmmmm, this is certainly thought provoking -- Green....

I too am absolutely NOT afraid to make commitments. I'm a professional pilot by trade, & have to make very tough life & death decisions all the time. No trouble there.

So yes indeed, I'm afraid to screw up again at this point in life. This next marriage must last if at all possible. Clearly there always has to be room for someone to change their mind - and yet I will survive, but you know what I mean. This one is it!

I think part of this is the fast Fast FAST pace of life these days. We have fast food + fast relationships. Folks want romance & sparks to erupt almost on cue. It won't happen that way in my opinion especially when someone has been badly hurt.

In fact, I'm developing this theory that the more one has been hurt by their WS, the more time they need to heal + the more cautious they might tend to be. Seems reasonable.

Folks are always wondering how long before dating, etc. Answer range all over the place of course. My theory would say: if you were badly hurt + you REALLY loved your WS + how many years were you together? Then that sort of predicts that you need to wait a longer time rather than a shorter one.

I guess when you feel a fear of intimate relationship, what you're really feeling is a fear of being abandoned yet again by the one you love the most. Stove was REALLY hot. You got burnt bad. You tend to stay away type of thing.

I'm benefitting by reading all of this. Keep it going.

High Flight

Me? Thought provoking? I must have goofed.
I'd like to add corollary to the "How long before I start dating?" question. "How long before I should get serious?"

I think it's okay to date without going through 5 years of deep mourning. However, once you do start to date, I think divorced people need to date around before they jump into a relationship. (Date, not sleep)

For some of us have a tendency to fall in love easily and overlook a lot of red flags. Some of us are desperate for our ENs to be met and may go for the first guy that fills them if we don't actively seek others to meet those needs as well.

It's really interesting, too, that we see "the One" used on this board. We've all read and thought about the MB principles, and have implemented them as best we could. Surely, we all have learned that there's not just one right one out there for us. Or maybe that lesson is mostly learned by the WS. Personally, I don't believe in "The One" out there any more. I think there are lots. The One is the one because I will have made him that.

But, since I'm not dating, this is all theory on my part. LOL. Man, I could be dangerous giving out advice I haven't lived.

Well Green, maybe you haven't lived it yet, but, it's all sound to me.

You sound so sensible in this.
Me, I did exactly what you said, fell for the first guy.

I'm no longer seeing him, but can't get him out of my head.

I on the other hand have not had opportunity to date others. If I had not went out with this guy, I'm pretty positive I would not have been out yet.

Anyway, I find your thought very interesting on the 5 year per se thing. Sounds logical to me.
I don't know how one could put a time line on that.

Good comments!
Karona

Thanks. Short of doing something like speed dating, I don't see how I'll date at all. I live in the boonies. I'm self-employed for now, there are no DV support groups around me, when I take a book and go for a drink at the nice pub 15 minutes from my house, half the time I run into my brother. I know no divorced men. None. The single men I know are under my age limit. So, once I manage to get this divorce contract done, and I'm divorced, my life will be ... just as free of possible commitment as it is now.

I'd like to explore this thought a bit further. Having just got in from a late night flight with heavy weather, I'm still wound up too tight to sleep yet.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, I too am facing my thoughts on "the one". I thought I was married to her. I adored this woman. That has truly made it hard on me to get over her.

Nevertheless, she's not coming back...therefore I must move on to be healthy. So, now I'm not going to be with "the one" anymore I'm rethinking my philosophy a bit.

I do think it takes a very high level of compatibility (in all major areas) & attraction (physical, mental & spiritual) to create a best possible scenario for having a solid marriage. EN's are best met when you these areas are fulfilled in my opinion.

I don't think it is reasonable to just think that if one puts their mind to it & selects a partner to fulfill their EN's that you can create a good marriage. But perhaps this isn't what you had in mind????

Let's explore this further. OK?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> High Flight

WEll GG, I wonder if were neighbors? It sounds like we are living in the same place! I live in a small town. I go to church, work, and do school activities. Let me tell you, I have no luck meeting anyone. I have several girlfriends, but the majority are married, so I don't get out much.

But what courage you have! You go girl!! To take a book and go somewhere for a drink, ALONE.
I ate lunch by myself about a month ago. That was a huge hurdle for me. I hate being alone in a place like that.


HF--
"I do think it takes a very high level of compatibility (in all major areas) & attraction (physical, mental & spiritual) to create a best possible scenario for having a solid marriage. EN's are best met when you these areas are fulfilled in my opinion.

I don't think it is reasonable to just think that if one puts their mind to it & selects a partner to fulfill their EN's that you can create a good marriage. But perhaps this isn't what you had in mind????"

Yes, this would have to be the case for me as you said above. If all those things are not in order, than I know I could not put my mind to it and make it work.

I think though, that GG means, that these qualities will be there, but she would overlook minor imperfections (because no one is perfect)and make him the greatest to herself and others.

It is also a fact, that our marriages are over, and we all need to move on and be healthy. That is my goal. I want to get myself to such a great place, to be able to give myself freely to another man again, someday.
It's not that I can't picture myself with anyone except my former spouse, it's this thing in my head that goes on. Where I look for the red flags, and try to find fault. Because then, I won't fail again. (I guess that's what my head is doing).

I think, when I repair myself, and find a guy with the qualities above and we both share them, how incredible life could be. Until then, I guess I will keep working on me.

Karona

Karona, I imagine that most of us live in areas like mine. Small town. At first, I used to be nervous about going out by myself. I still am, and I'm very cautious about where and when I go. I do NOT want to look like a pick up. And you'd be amazed... some people are "regulars" at bars, and a woman wondering in is recognized as fresh meat. The unknown. That said, I've also run into groups of very nice men who enjoyed talking to me and wanted nothing more. I liked that. The book is essential. Or bring "work." The way I figure it, the least teh feminist movement could have done for us was to enable us to go out to dinner, or for a glass of wine alone. BTW, I also like the library. Anywhere were there are adults.

HF, I do think compatibility is a key issue. My marriage failed in part because my H and I were incredibly incompatible. So incompatible that both of us felt that we were sacrificing and yet neither of felt we got what we needed. B. wasn't into POJA, but I tried to. Disaster.

But, I don't think there's just one. I will probably frame the question "Is this person someone I can continue to build a relationship with throughout my life?"

OK. I'm gonna come on up front here and open my situation up to you for your input. I was married to "the one" I thought. We were incredibly compatible & the attraction to each other was STRONG. All the pieces in place except for some real abuse issues from her past, an eating disorder, etc. Won't go into that, old news, doesn't really matter to this discussion.

Although after not seeing her for many months, this week she rolled through my neighborhood late one evening while I was out walking. She stopped & talked for about 30 minutes. Mostly coordial & laughter, etc. She played with "her" old cat Sophie (she left all 3 cats with me). So this has kind of played with me a bit. Why was she here? She doesn't indicate she wants me back, but she always questions if I've got anyone & says it with some anger in her voice.

I figure she doesn't want me, but doesn't want anyone else to have me either????

Anyway, on to my real point. There is a woman I've met who really cares for me. We're compatible in many areas too. But there's a few that really are difficult for me.

1. English is her 2nd language. There's a fairly heavy accent (from Brazil). It bothers me as in irritates me over a long period of time of trying to understand her. I'm articulate & highly educated (graduate degree). Good English is important to me. She struggles a bit. Our communication suffers. Can I fall in love with someone who isn't a top-of-the-line communicator? I dunno.....

2. She wears HEAVY makeup. It comes off on my shirts when she hugs me. That's a huge turnoff for me. Yes, I've very tactfully said something to her. She has a skin disorder she said that she's trying to cover up. I understand, but it doesn't solve the way I feel about the chemicals.

3. The makeup makes her look older. I look about 35+ from what everyone tells me. Even though I'm 46, it makes her look older than me. That bothers me a good deal.

4. She struggles just a bit with weight. She has a wonderful "form", but at 5'0" she's really prone to putting on lbs with no where to hide even 1 overindulgent meal. I'm fit & that bothers me about long term her health & looks.

5. Her hair is very VERY frizzy normally. Long blonde. Her hair texture is rather unappealing to me. However she straightens it meticulously each day with special hair tool. Takes forever. I've NEVER been into frizzy hair appearance. After her work it is not bad, but her natural look around the house, etc is a turnoff to me.

6. She uses terms like "honey & sweetie & dear & sweetheart" for anyone & everyone -- perfect strangers even. I've never been drawn to this sort of temperment. Seems too fakey & shallow.

7. Lastly, she's pushing too fast for me. She wants to be married to me. I'm not into a fast paced courtship at all after what I've been through for the past 5 yrs. Yes, I've surfaced this too with her. She has a hard time holding back her feelings she says....

NOW, having said all of these negative things, she's a truly wonderful human being. Strong values, spiritually we're together. Even though she appears fakey in her "honey / sweetie" thing, she is NOT. She's for real & is the same year after year -- I've checked with folks who know her. Extremely loyal. Dedicated & very hard working. Folks think highly of her in her town. She has a great reputation & charisma.

She has enormous personal talents. Great cook! Wonderful house keeper! Dresses sharp! Likes many of the things I do. She has a classic singing voice. She's full of energy. She loved my 2 boys right away. She's most unselfish & caring...probably one of the most giving person's I've ever met! Almost to a fault. I'm watching for codependent issues to surface even.

So I'm trying to analyze what's going on here. Are these appearance & personality issues non-negotiables for me? Am I being too hard on her? I do know this. You don't go into a relationship to change the other person whatsoever! That is fatal.

I am NOT a shallow person please accept that as true. What a person is INside is far more important than OUTside. Nevertheless, you have to have a certain level of chemistry compatibility & attraction that way or it won't work in my opinion.

To disclose one other thing. My ExWife was extremely attractive. Heads turned when she walked into a room. It's just that inside she wasn't as together as my new friend. And conversely my friend is not at the same level physically - though far from UNattractive. Am I struggling too much with this? Do I feel like I'm settling?

I appreciate any help from you guys. I care for my friend quite a bit. I just cannot seem to take it to the level of falling in love with her & some of these issues are behind this I believe.

Regards,
High Flight

I think that the traits you find irritating now would drive you buggers in a few years.

You're just not that into her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

V.

The Laundry list method of mate selection.

HF, you are illustrating 1/2 the way we should (IMO) select a mate. You are analyzing it...and comparing it to what else might be available vs how long to find that one, vs the understanding as your requirements go up, the pool goes down...yada yada yada. One either talks themself into it, or out it, makes no difference, the problem lies in the method.

The other method is "feelings", this is the "one", I can't live without him/her blah blah blah (the why do good women choose bad boys syndrome), is about chemistry, lonliness, fear of rejection, and all those other warm and fuzzy (or frigtening) emotions. This to is a problem, and often leads to really bad choices (even worse than the first method).

The solution is to use both, you marry someone who your heart and mind are in love with. It sounds to me like you know you really aren't attracted emotionally as you should be, but recognize her (many) good qualities, so are trying to talk yourself into (or out of) this place. IMO when we get in such a position, we need to take action and see what happens...either back off a while, and see if you are ok, or seriously regret it, or go for it, make committments (not marriage yet), and act more like a couple..see if that feels better or worse. You need more info.

As for your negative list, I don't belong to the school that says not to expect change in people, is irrational, and violates MB principles. We certainly should not expect someone to change their fundamental personality (say turn an introvert into an extrovert), but neither can we expect to have a perfect match in every particular. Using the principle of annoying habits (such as excessive makeup, or speech idiosyncracies), we can communicate and ask (expect) change. If this is rebuffed (or we be equally intransigent for similar requests), then is not a good match, and/or the unwilling partner not worthy in general.

Fear of commitment. Fear of intimacy. Fear of failure. Fear of abandonment.

I suppose it all comes down to the fear of being hurt.

But I think it's very interesting where this discussion has gone. Sometimes a reluctance to commit to a relationship may be due to fear, but other times it may be due to wisdom. I don't imagine that it's always easy to tell the difference, especially if one operates primarily at an intuitive level.

I agree with Greengables that an important question to ask is "Is this person someone I can continue to build a relationship with throughout my life?". I think you can make just about any relationship work, if both of you put enough effort into it, but...that doesn't mean every relationship is equally wise.

Leil Lowndes wrote an interesting but somewhat disturbing book titled How to Make Anyone Fall in Love with You. While she admits that the title is not particularly accurate, she does claim that "You can make someone fall in love with you." However, she goes on to say "Is it a simple task? No. Does it require sacrifice? Yes. You may decide, after reading this book, that capturing his or heart is simply not worth having to give that much of yourself." If you read between the lines as you go through the book, you discover that the way to make someone fall in love with you is to be the person that's right for them. If that's not who you really are, then you are going to have a tough time making the relationship work.

It's relatively easy to "fall in love" with someone who really isn't entirely "right" for you, by focusing on what you find attractive about that person - whether consciously or unconsciously, whether real or imagined, and whether to your benefit or your detriment - while missing or ignoring other qualities which might suggest the match isn't so great after all. I came across an interesting quote the other day, from Roger Ebert of all people, in a movie review: "Odd, how the heart finds hope. When we are weighing the possibility of love with someone, we do not compare their reality with our reality. We compare their reality with our need, so there is always a perfect fit."

I can't help wondering whether when we say "He's just not my type" or "She's not my type" we are revealing more about our pasts than about what is truly good for us. I wonder whether instead of asking if he or she is "my type" we should be asking if he or she should be "my type."

Leil says:

Unfortunately, I suspect that that "sixth sense" often gets drowned out by other factors: desperation, for example, or compassion. I doubt many people are even consciously aware of what their ideal relationship balance would be, or even think to ask the question. So it's no wonder they do not (can not!) communicate it or consider it.

But compatibility is not enough. I have long believed that the best relationships involve a near-magical blend of both compatibility and complementarity. And by compatibility, I'm not talking about whether we both like shrimp! I'm talking about everything from lifestyle to values to goals to personalities.

Here's what Leil has to say:

What are my goals in life? What is my purpose? What are my values (meaning not just moral values, but what is important to me)? If I cultivate a relationship with someone who has goals incompatible with my own, or who does not share or support my values, I am setting myself up for misery and/or heartbreak. But if we share a vision for our lives and we can see how we will be able to accomplish that vision together better because we complement each other in exactly the right ways...well, that's a reason to pursue a relationship!

I don't think the sign of a good match is a mutual willingness to make changes in order to accommodate each other's needs. That is important, because needs can change quite dramatically and unexpectedly sometimes. But I submit that the sign of a good match is an enthusiasm to make those changes, because they are consonant with what we each want out of life.

For me, the biggest area of uncertainty in this philosophy of relationships involves "chemistry" - that feeling of "being in love." What if you find someone who, on paper, appears to be exactly right for you? Someone who seems to be compatible in all the right ways and complementary in all the right ways. Only...there's no chemistry.

According to Dr. Harley and plenty of other "experts," chemistry can be developed almost algorithmically. But I don't know whether I really believe that, and it seems awfully difficult to prove in our culture. After all, how many people do you know who began a relationship because it made sense instead of because they felt a mutual attraction?

"What fools these mortals be."

HF, I don't think you're afraid of commitment. I suspect you just don't want to commit to this person. That's okay. There are plenty of very nice people out there with whom I never fell in love. There are plenty of intelligent, kind people with whom I've never had a deep friendship. It wasn't in the cards.

As a side note, I think I'd better tolerate a foreigner who didn't speak English well as opposed to a native who butchered the Queen's English. Pet peeve #1: "Where're you at?" EEEIIK!

HF - sounds to me like appearances are really important to you, and she doesn't quite measure up for you. You know, time is never kind to people, so odds are her appearances will not improve. You might consider that you are likely to be more unhappy with her in the future than you are now.

Do her a favor and let her go, to find someone who appreciates her other qualities. If she's like me, you'll be doing her a favor. (I personally feel stress worrying about appearances as I age. I worry about whether the man in my life is going to be critical of me, and this makes me NOT want to get in another relationship EVER again.)

I'm GREATLY benefitting by what each of you are writing. A BIG thank you to each one.

And, I'm thinking & praying this all through......

I do NOT want to be selfish here & hold on to her if I cannot reach an overwhelmingly enthusiastic "Go-Ahead" within myself about her.

I think the last of what Gnomedeplume wrote is probably the most accurate for me. On paper she's near perfect! In my heart, it hasn't happened like it did with my exwife. There's an attraction alright, but not really deep WOW chemistry...Yet!

I see what is said about developing chemistry. Even Dr. H subscribes to this. Hmmmmm, makes it even more difficult to assimilate.

Yes, appearance is important to me to develop chemistry. I'm a pretty visual person in all aspects of my life, not just women. BUT! I did quickly dismiss the most gorgeous woman I ever dated about last December. She even came all the way across the USA to meet me & visit. She was in times past, a catalogue model for some pretty famous names like JC Penney, SEARS, etc. Her character & personal values were lacking & I pulled the plug on her after one visit of 4 days. So, I'm NOT that shallow, nor do I have only an appearance agenda, or I would've gone for her in a heartbeat.

About all I know to do is what Knight50 said. Pull back a bit. Allow time to go by. See how it goes. Do I miss her greatly? Can I regroup & go on without her easily? This + much prayer to God for guidance. After all I have this saying: God already knows the name & address of the one I'm best suited to be with. I just need to stay close enough to Him to hear it when He points her out to me.

I know one thing. She is a solid gold human being. I want to deal with her with respect & great care, no matter how this shapes up.

I'm also a bit wondering if inspite of how I THINK I feel about my exwife, am I still a bit attached in some way? Is this what is holding me back from being able to give myself to another? Is it still just too soon? Am I still grieving her loss? Even though I really WANT to move on with my life.

High Flight