Not sure if I should post this here or Recovery ...

OK, I just got back from my 1st date w/ my H since NC/Recovery last week, and something went wrong. Here's what happened ... he picked me up like a gentleman, and we were having a grand ol' time on the way to the Dave Mathews concert until he casually mentioned that while he was at the Indy 500 this past weekend with his buddy Dave (who I never liked nor trusted), they visited a strip club. He tried to tell me something funny that happened there, and I just completely shut down.

Background: Despite my transgressions over the past year, My H and I have traditionally been fairly conservative (i.e. no drugs, wild parties, etc.). Yeah, we're a real hoot. Anyway, my H has been talking about these changes he's made to become this "new man". Initially, I was really excited about these changes, as I can visibly see that he's becoming physically fit, independent and confident. But, what I've also learned is that he's been hanging out with Dave quite frequently. Apparently, Dave got my H to smoke pot on New Year's Eve and then recently set my H up with a girl at his anniversary party, knowing that we're still technically married (granted we've decided to file for a D by this time). To top it all off, Dave had made a big pass at me (i.e. asked me to sleep with him) at their New Year's Eve party 1.5 years ago while his wife was in the next room! Now my H is going strip clubs too? It was just a bit much for me to handle, so I completely shut down.

My H sensed my silence and probed me for the cause. I explained to him that I was excited about getting to know him again and discover his new changes, but I certainly didn't think the changes included drugs, strippers and sleezy friends. He said that this is not the norm, and these weren't the changes that he was referring to. He reassured me that he's become a much better man than the one I left and that he's even willing to stop hanging out with Dave if that's what I wanted.

I felt better, but the unthinkable happened ... for a split second, I thought about the OM - how at least he never used drugs and how he frowned upon strip clubs. Why? I don't want to be with the OM. I know regardless if I was married or not, he's not the one for me. So why? Unfortunately, this split-second mishap dampened the night for me, and I just couldn't let go.

I don't get it. I just spent the past week daydreaming about my new life with my H. I was so looking forward to our date tonight. I even started to feel some intimate pull toward him, which I've not felt in years. Plus, I wasn't feeling any withdrawal. For the past several days, I felt mentally, physically and emotionally stable and disconnected from the OM and the A. What is wrong w/ me? Is this the mood swing everyone warned about? Ealier today, I thought that maybe something intimate could happen, but when my H asked to come in, I quickly declined, making some excuse that I was very tired. I could tell he was visibly frustrated. I gave him a big hug and a kiss on the cheek and sent him home.

Can someone PLEASE tell me what's wrong w/ me?? How can I all of a sudden not feel the same desire for intimacy that I did just hours ago?? Please help - I don't want to screw this up! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Wellllll, I don't mean just w/r/t sex, but... as I'm sure you know, you may have to do things you don't feel like doing in order to get things straight with your H.

Does your H know about Dave's propositioning you? Golly, I don't know if I'd continue a friendship w/someone who put a move on my wife.

GC

What's wrong with you? Nothing.

Let's forget about your affair and your H's confession of going to nightclubs, smoking pot and hanging with his sleazy buddy Dave. Sex starts and ends within the stuff that's between our ears, and if there is something very unpleasant that gets stuck in our minds, the chances of wanting physical intimacy goes down the tubes really fast. Perhaps your H's confession brought, in part, the bad memories of the very recent past and the life that almost came to be if the divorce had gone forth.

I would like for you to consider having a heart to heart talk with your H about what happened inside of you that caused you to shutdown. Don't hide anything, and this includes Dave's proposition 1.5 years ago. This may help him to realize that you were not rejecting him because you did not want to have any physical intimacy with him but because of the funk that had temporarily set residence inside of you.

TMCM

Dear Whisper,

I agree with TMCM. There is absolutely nothing wrong with you. Your feelings and behavior towards your H after he mentioned his visit to the strip club to you AND his hanging out with such a sleazy friend, was perfectly understandable AND normal in my opinion… I think when your H told you this you were extremely disappointed and shocked, and I think that’s part of the reason you shut down from him and allowed yourself to think of OM in a moment of weakness and disappointment.

Personally I have a very low regard for men who visit strip clubs…especially those who do it frequently and keep it secret from their wifes... I think it is TOTALLY disrespectful & inconsiderate towards their wives and I view the visit of strip clubs as betrayal and mental adultery/adultery in the heart. Just the idea of married men visiting strip clubs and have lust in their hearts for that women out there makes my blood boil, but it’s interesting that many men don’t think there is anything wrong with that (even good and Christian men like your H). Well...at least your H was honest with you about it and didn't try to keep it secret from you... Last year my H found out that my best friend of 18 year’s H was visiting strip-clubs and we decided to inform her about it. My friend’s H isn’t a bad person, not at all, but I think he was one of those men who thought there is nothing wrong with visiting strip-clubs and lust after those woman… This behavior is very destructive and damaging to a M and if you’re interested, I can give you links to threads about strip-clubs etc. Just let me know and I will post it to you.

Whisper, too be totally honest with you – if I would ever found out my H visit strip clubs, it would be an absolute DEAL-BREAKER to me and I would not accept this or accept my H hanging out with sleazy friends who have no morals and tried to hook him up with another women before while he was still MARRIED! But it sounds if your H is at least willing to give up hanging out with his friend and stop doing these unacceptable things and that’s good and positive. As I've said, he was also honest with you about his visit to the club and that’s also very good…

As TMCM has said, you should have a heart-to-heart talk with your H about this and also inform him about his friend’s pass on you 1.5 years ago… This should help to wake your H up and make him realize that such a friend is no-good and should disappear out of your lives completely. I understand your disappointment in your H, but sort this out with him and don’t allow this to come between you and your recovery together.... Share your dissapointment and hurt with him, but also remember to thank him for being honest and open with you about it. You and hubby have already started to overcome the obstacle of your betrayal and you will be able to overcome this 'obstacle' as well - just communicate and be honest and open with each other! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Blessings,
Suzet

Since we were stuck in traffic for nearly 1.5 hrs last night, we did have that heart to heart. When he asked me what was wrong, I explained how I felt about his recent activities and his sleazy friend Dave. He completely understood, and that's why he has agreed not to hang out with Dave. I know my H wants nothing more than to make our M work. He felt bad that I had a negative reaction to his telling me the truth. He even said that, in the past, he rarely talk much nor tell me how he felt, and he wanted to change that and be honest w/ me this time around. Unfortunately, I now feel ambivalent about the situation. On 1 hand, I didn't want him to stop telling me the truth, yet on the other, I felt bad about what he told me. Did I do the right thing in confronting him? What if he goes back to not talking to me and hiding things again?

Want to know the big challenge here? Dave also happens to be a big-shot executive who recently gave my H a job offer he just couldn't possibly refuse. You see, they had worked together previously, and Dave has always been impressed with my H. They've hung out here and there, but never like this - and certainly NOT to a strip club. My H knows about what happened 1.5 yrs ago, and he stopped hanging out with Dave until long after we separated. With this, I feel like I don't have the right to say much about what happened while we're still separated. (Note - My IC/MC advised that now I've finally made up my mind, that we should not immediately move back in, that we should date each other, have fun and continue to work things out until we're comfortable enough to move back in or it may be disastrous for an already fragile situation. What do you think about this?)

So back to last night ... I'm ashamed to say this, but the main reason I I shied away from closeness w/ my H was not as much b/c his recent behavior, but b/c my fleeting thought about the OM. I feel very disgusted with me and my sexuality right now b/c I know I recently had a PA w/ another man. And, when the thought of the OM popped in my head, I felt like I was cheating again and that I would just fall back into that nasty hole. I don't want my H to be intimate with a cheating W. And, I'm sooo scared to fall back into that nasty hole.

I'm starting to get nervous and anxious again. What do you think of all this? (Plus, I had dream about the OM before I woke up this morning. Nothing happened, but he did pop in my dreams, which hasn't happened since NC last week.) How can I deal with this and get completely over him??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

W

Yes, you did the right thing by confronting him and telling him how you feel… Your H must know about your feelings of hurt, disappointment etc. if he acts/acted inappropriate & disrespectful towards you and the M… This is called honesty and openness between spouses and without that there can’t be true communication and intimacy in a M. However, the most important is to share your feelings without LB’ing. You can do this by using “I” messages and share your honest feelings without name-calling, accusations, attacking etc. This will also prevent him going back to no talking and hiding things from you again.


Remember the thread on withdrawal? Well, it will take time for you to completely get over OM. It’s a gradual process and it will get better with time and patience. You can fasten this process by implementing the guidelines to FWS’s I posted on the withdrawal thread. Also re-read the post I’ve once received from Ark while I was struggling with the same things you are currently struggling with e.g. the thoughts you still have about OM etc. (The post from Ark^ is in the link to the thread I’ve posted to you the other day).

Whisper, I understand you feel guilty about a lot of things. You feel guilty that your A happened in the first place. You feel badly that you haven't been able to put these feelings completely to rest. And you feel awful for hurting your H and wish to protect him from further hurt.

Whisper...really, when you think about all those things, they are wonderful in their own way. I know you don't think well of yourself, but consider looking at each of these issues with a new pair of eyes. You feel guilty that you had the A, but you ended it... You have maintained no contact and are working on your marriage, despite lingering thoughts and feelings... That shows strength and commitment. You made a mistake, but you are doing the right things to rectify it... Feel good about yourself for that. We all have failings, but it's how we deal with them that separates us. The fact that you are still aware of the pain you caused your H and your feelings of guilt about it, shows the kind of remorse that it takes to heal this rift. You are doing just fine. I'm sure you still miss the OM from time to time and will experience setbacks, but time and distance will deaden this pain, and as your marriage heals and becomes stronger, it will get easier.

Honesty is essential to marriages, therefore if you find that these thoughts/feelings is a wall between you and your H, you owe it to him to explain your feelings so that he understands, but if these are just passing twinges, let them pass...

I think your IC/MC's advice might be good and the best thing to do in the current circumstances, but in the end it is up to you and your H to decide what is best for your M.

Blessings,
Suzet

Edited to correct typo's. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Oh Whisper, another thing I forgot to say to you: Please don’t beat yourself up about the dream you had about OM. It’s not your fault and we can’t control our dreams. Anyway, dreams are just a way of the unconscious to get things out of your system, so don’t pay must attention to it… We also tend to dream about the things that’s bothering us and the fact that you had thoughts about OM last night on your date with your H was upsetting to you and that’s why you dreamed about it. That's all - no big deal ok? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You don't know what a relief it is to hear you say this, Suzet. I just printed off all the threads and am reading them as I'm responding. I was so naive to think that now that I've made this monumental decision and am feeling so good about myself and my decision that perhaps I would be exempt from withdrawal and just simply fall back in love with my H again. Pretty silly, huh?

Thanks for your wisdom and support. That whole dream-thing really bothered me, and you made me feel so much better. It's so hard to be human. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Whisper

*Deleted*

Hopefully you've understood from a BH point of view.

I was wondering if your H was thinking he needed to be a bit more risque...strip club..Dave...kind of not being as straight laced...because after all, you did have a sleazy A with OM who would have an A with a married woman. So, maybe there is a possibility that he thought you'd be more aroused by him changing by loosening up on his morality a bit, stretching his normally safe character???

Now, maybe he knows that won't work with you and he won't go that direction. Maybe he's looking for ways to attract you back to him. A PA with OM can hurt an H's ego to the core. It can make him feel less...hopefully, you can reassure him that you want your H that has a good and moral character. Some changes in him may have been in order but not in that direction.

Whisper - sorry to threadjack...

TA,

I think that Whisper understands that she hurt her H, that is why she's here, and that is why she's trying to make things right. I think that your posts are a little harsh for someone who is trying to make things right. She KNOWS that she hurt her H, she can see that when she looks at him. She doesn't need you making her feel more guilty.

Do you have a thread with your story? I'm not sure what has happened to you, but I'm curious as to where all of your hate is coming from.

Okay, threadjack over.

Cat

Trix - I can tell that my H is trying to prove that he's "more fun" now. If you read my earlier posts, you'll see that was one of our problems before. And, it is possible that he's letting me know that he's starting to "cut loose" a bit by mentioning this incident. Unfortunately, it did somewhat backfire. With that being said, I believe what you say has a lot of merit. At least he's trying, right? We just went to MC together today for the first time, and it was nice to hear that there will be ups and downs as we're piecing things together. As my H said in the car on the way back ... "it's an iterative process of trial and error." That was a trial and an error, but we've gotten passed it and have learned. I'm on the positive swing again now, so let's see what happens on our 2nd date this weekend!

Cat - Threadjack away. Thanks for standing up for me. I won't let you down.

Your H may feel like he is a bit on eggshells with you, wanting to do the right thing to reconnect with you and not push you away. You are on on the right track. Try to reassure him often. His ego is fragile right now.

Even though TA's post was harsh in style..there was some underlying truth in what he posted from his perspective as a hurt BH. I know it is hard not react to the his style without feeling defensive.

My FWH used to say that the A(s) were fun for him. I interpreted that as I was less fun. I tried to be more fun and come up with fun things to do. It was initially out of character for me and difficult to come up with new things to do on dates with him. Once I blind-folded him and brought him to an NHL game. He was thrilled. He also likes more spontanaity whereas I usually like to make plans.

You can rebuild the love between you. You are on the right track. Give each other grace. Be transparent. Use POJA.

Thanks, Trix. It did come out during MC today re: my H's insecurity toward our R. Completely understandable. I'm insecure too. Our MC istructed me to apologize every day for a month to reassure my H and that my H should let me know when he needs add'l reassurances, hugs, etc. I can do this!!

Dear Whisper,

How are you feeling today? Hope it’s better than yesterday?

I left work after I’ve posted my last post to you yesterday and therefore I didn’t had a chance to read TA’s post before he deleted it, but since it sound (from the other posts you’ve received) that TA’s post was very harsh and hate filled, I can just guess what he has posted to you... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> However, it’s good that you have someone like Trix who can give you a BS’s perspective in a decent and respectful way...because I think you deserve decency and respect as a FORMER WS who has stopped contact with the OP and are truly remorseful and repentant and aware of the pain you have caused your H...

Anyway, I just wanted to pop in to hear how it goes with you and to say that I’m thinking of you and that I will keep you and your H in my prayers during this difficult time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

NS: Whisper, I understand you struggle with feelings of guilt, shame etc., but do you also struggle a lot with self forgiveness (forgiving yourself) and accepting yourself as a person after what you’ve did? Self forgiveness is very important for your personal recovery as well…You have to accept yourself as a new, better & cleansed person who has left your "old life" and "old self" behind... But of course this won't "spare" you from experiencing withdrawal pains, emotional setbacks etc. These things WILL take time and patience! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Blessings,
Suzet

Edited to add to my post.

Did you share ALL of this with your H during your heart to heart talk with him? If you haven't then you are missing an opportunity to help both of yourselves to deal with is. Your H may be releived that your rejection had nothing to do with him and he in turn may become compassionate enough by not putting anymore pressure until you are emotionally healed enough to want to have physical intimacy with him again. As a H I have to tell you that there is nothing more pleasurable than when my W is the one who wants to make love. I love my W so much that I would NEVER want to be physically intimate with her if she was not feeling well emotionally and/or physically. Hopefully your H is that kind of man as well.

Whisper I see in you a person with a lot of humanity in her, who has learned from her horrible choices, and who now has the potential to be a great W. The problem is for YOU to emotionally acknowledge this truth. You can do this, in time, by committing to express to yourself this truth on a daily and constant basis [even if you don't feel it to be true].

Lastly, keep this in mind: recovery, personal or marital, is a one day at time process that cannot and should not be rushed. Give yourself and your H some slack, especially since the road to recovery has just begun and there will certainly be many more bumps and potholes on it, similar to this one.


That can't happen unless you allow yourself to again cross marital boundaries [i.e. spend too much time alone with another man, confide your personal life with another man, confess your attraction to another man, lie to your H about your friendship with another man, etc.]. Consider that the late Shirley Glass PhD [author of 'Not just friends'] said that her research found that even good, happy marriages can fall into affairs if spouses cross marital boundaries. Your eternal vigilance will help you from doing just that.

TMCM

Sorry for not responding earlier. I'm still figuring things out about this website (like looking at page 2, etc.). Funny, considering I'm in the IT business. ha!

Suzet - I'm on cloud 9 today. I just started a new post to let you & TMCM know how I felt about my 2nd date w/ my hubby. Since we began recovery, I guess my H and I just want to dive in and fix things ASAP, not wanting to face the fact that it will take some time. Can I let you in on a secret? Although nothing specific happened, I now BELIEVE that physical intimacy will come back for us. That has been a fear of mine for a long time ... that I didn't/couldn't believe. Wiegee told me a while back that one has to BELIEVE that it will work, or it won't. Well, I'm now a believer. That's HUGE for me!!! Thanks for checking up on me. It's so good to know that you're on my side and that you won't let me fall. I won't let you down.

TMCM - Yes & no. I didn't share how I felt that night, but I did today. It was nice to get it off my chest, and my H was very understanding. He's not pressuring me, so I don't feel the pressure. We're just taking 1 day at a time and letting things happen naturally.

Re: marital boundaries. Trust me. I've learned my lesson. I've quit all mixed activities that doesn't involve my H. Guess what? Now that my H and I are starting to meet each other's needs, I don't miss it. I've not felt this way in YEARS!!!

I know I still need to work on me and how I feel about myself. That may take some time as I've really let myself down. Thanks for the great advice and the constant encouragement. They mean the world to me.