|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,380
Member
|
OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,380 |
Hi Folks,
I feel like I am having an out of body experience I'm so mad.I haven't felt this mad in a long time.Why? Because while I was at work last night(conveniently) my STBXWH decided to start talking about the homewrecker to my girls and how he was going to a concert with her,etc,etc.This left my oldest in a hyper quiet mood and my youngest SOBBING in her bed for hours.My Mom overheard some of the conversation(loud voice) and made a wise choice not telling me while I was at work.
I was fairly certain the adulterer would wait to say anything about this wretched person until the D was final since it's still a painful situation that we are all dealing with.I am disturbed at how carefree he is with this information to our girls as if it doesn't affect them at all.I know that that is just part of the selfishness he lives by now.
So.Of course I am waiting to calm down before I do anything,which may take all day and I am also reviewing my plans of action.Some explosive,some not so explosive.Which will win out I don't know.As I hold my youngest whose eyes are nearly swollen shut this morning from crying herself to sleep last night it is very hard for me not to lay waste to many people in the form of dramatic phone calls.
I don't really know if I'm looking for advice or just venting but I had to put this out there for today.I fear the next step obviously is my STBX trying to introduce the homewrecker in person and if he thinks I will agree to them crossing the border to see that person he has another thing coming.
Needless to say this will not go unanswered.
O
BW(me)40
DDay 10/11/03
Divorcing
'The Reformer'- enneagram type 1
~Let Higher Minds Prevail~
---------------
~Life isn't complicated,we make it that way~
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 92,985 Likes: 1 |
What a freaking tragedy, OG. I feel so badly for you and your daughters. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,380
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,380 |
Thanks Mel.It's not like Im the only one with kids who are going through this and certainly there are worse situations going on but for me and my family,this is a major mistake.My WH knows how I feel about this whole thing and he is testing the waters,I can see. I just have to decide what I want to do.Still trying to calm down. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
BW(me)40
DDay 10/11/03
Divorcing
'The Reformer'- enneagram type 1
~Let Higher Minds Prevail~
---------------
~Life isn't complicated,we make it that way~
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,083
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,083 |
Consider giving him some relationship pointers - Nah - nevermind - he couldn't care less about his relationship with his daughters, or their relationship with his OW, should he decide to get into a committed relationship with her after the destruction she rained on your daughters' heads... They could really make her life a living h*ll if he keeps this up.
On 2nd thoughts, that's exactly what he deserves. Natural consequences of cheating on your daughters is that they will have their revenge eventually - but by the time it really hits the fan, he'll wonder why his OW is constantly complaining about his darling daughters...
Cloudy the crystal ball is on some things; but on future fall out from his foolishness, things couldn't get any more clear. It's a guarantee.
Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1 The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"? The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!" If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,407
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,407 |
I was fairly certain the adulterer would wait to say anything about this wretched person until the D was final [b]Why did you assume anything? My wife and I agreed we would sit down and tell our children together in August, one month before school starts. Now it's been delayed while we still work to reconcile. Your husband should have consulted you first, however I feel you are to blame also. Your husband knows the marriage is over but you're still hoping there may be a reprieve. I don't blame you for thinking this way. I think you need to face the facts and accept that the marriage is over and start talking to your husband for the sake of the kids. Your anger towards him is not going to help the kids. No matter what you do, keep your mouth shut in regards to disrespecting your husband in front of the kids in any way shape or form, EVER. Your daughters need a FATHER no matter what your feelings toward him. Vent somewhere else but not to your children. I can already hear you disrespecting your husband to your daughters. IMO you are just as Guilty as your husband for not discussing this with your daughters or at least consulting your husband. I wish you well. Live does move on and you will survive and prosper "if" you put this behind you. If not, you'll be like every PITA wife who complains about their husbands. I can't stand these women. They wonder why their husbands left them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I'm not saying this is you, but if you continue with this attitude you'll be one of them real fast. It's an easy habit to start, blame the ex for everything. Think of your daughters 24/7. Dr Phil had an entire show about this yesterday. Flame away, I can sense it coming.
Last edited by TA; 06/02/05 07:24 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,074
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,074 |
I think he was a jerk for saying anything to the kids. I also think he is a jerk for doing this to octobergirl. Personally, he is in the fog, don't waste your breath on him. Get the kids IC. Keep a documented journal of his transgressions and actions with the OW (shack up as Dr Laura says). Your job is to protect them from an immoral situation. All you can do is turn it over to your attorney for guidence. Don't get mad. He is what he is. If this behavior continues, you do not really want him. Keep doing good things for you and your kids. The truth always comes out in the end and he will reap what he sows. Keep your head high and be very strong for your kids. Try to minimize their destruction. Try to keep them out of the middle the best you can. That is ALL you can do. This is the dad you picked for them. You cannot control him. You have to let it go and do your best to pick up the pieces. By being a strong role model for them you will be protecting them. One day at a time.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,380
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,380 |
TA,
You are way off base and your repeated flack statements at women are unfounded.That is one reason I don't post to you,except for now.
My WH and I had an agreement that we would not introduce the girls to anyone else for at least a year after the D was final.Up until now, he abided by that.But like usual he does what he wants selfishly no matter who it hurts.He could have easily said he was going out to a concert and left it at that.But instead he chose to hurt the children and tell them the details.Being fairly certain only meant that I would have hoped he would keep to his word since he is CONSTANTLY trying to tell me how honest he is being and doesn't lie,"just look at the facts".BS! I have called him on every single lie and omission and he is still living in fantasyland.
Next you state that I am to blame and then you state that I am hoping for a reprieve. You are way out of line.Nothing could be further from the truth and it's clear how uninformed you are.I am the one who filed TA and I have not looked back since.I don't even want to know this man anymore,he is unrecognizable to me as is.I will not talk to a man whose sole purpose now is for us all to accept the homewrecker and let bygones be bygones.We are still coping,better,but coping.OP's have no business whatsoever being around our children.PERIOD.I wouldn't take my WH back if he were the last man standing.
Where did I say I vented to my children? You are full of misinformation and are coming to your own conclusions.Get your facts straight.You can already hear me disrespecting my children's father? Where? Do you have a tap on my phone? I haven't even said a word yet to him about last night and you don't know me.
I would appreciate it if you do not post to me anymore.Your phoney wellwishes and response were most unhelpful.
O
BW(me)40
DDay 10/11/03
Divorcing
'The Reformer'- enneagram type 1
~Let Higher Minds Prevail~
---------------
~Life isn't complicated,we make it that way~
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,380
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,380 |
KaylaAndy,
Thanks for your post to me.I don't know what his relationship with the girls will be like when they are older but that will be up to them.Right now I am trying to shield them from this mess as best I can.
NJ,
I am trying to protect them from the situation my WH has put us in.It's anything but normal and I agree immoral too.I cannot help getting mad,it's an emotion that is normal with what transpires here but I am being rational and thinking first before acting.Everytime I think we are stabilized he does something against what he claims and then we have another issue to deal with.Like this phone call.It was completely unnecessary for him to tell the children what he did.After thinking about his motives all I can come up with is he is selfish and doesn't care who he hurts and it also might be a spiteful tactic done to upset me based on a recent e-mail I sent him.However,I cannot fathom to stoop so low as to upset the kids.They know he has a "girlfriend"(PUKE) but we do to talk about it anymore since the day I filed.He just did it for some selfish purpose.No decency.They have been shielded from this all along,I made sure of it but he just threw a fast ball and I have to figure out what to do.
Anyway,thank you for taking the time to respond.
O
BW(me)40
DDay 10/11/03
Divorcing
'The Reformer'- enneagram type 1
~Let Higher Minds Prevail~
---------------
~Life isn't complicated,we make it that way~
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,903
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,903 |
Invite the girls to write a letter to dear old dad. Or perhaps 2 letters...one they'll send, and one they won't... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Edited: to add smiley
Last edited by StillHereMakingIt; 06/02/05 08:15 AM.
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we are here we might as well dance!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,380
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,380 |
SHMI,
That is an interesting thing to suggest.You know,up until now,my girls have been shielded from basically 99% of all of this mess.Mostly due to the fact that WH lives near homewrecker in the other country.So it was easy,so to speak,to live our lives without that painful part in it.It wasn't always being paraded around in front of us.
But the girls have not told their father what they feel really.As far as I know he hadn't brought up the subject to them since I talk to the girls frequently to see how they are doing mentally,emotionally,etc.We could ignore it until WH had his weekends and then they would have their time playing with him and not talk about homewrecker.We haven't talked about the fact that daddy has a homewrecker since the day I decided to file way back in 3/2004 or thereabouts.
I know that it may escalate one day.I am bracing for it and worse but we had an agreement and of course he will tell me it never happened.I think I still have the e-mail(from last year!) so I many resend it to prove myself.
Well,I composed an e-mail to WH and sent it off.Not a blast but more about what is appropriate and not when it comes to the children.That obviously was not a concern(is it ever?) when he spoke to them last night.It was more about,let's see if I can squeeze this info in there and start integrating homewrecker as "the friend".The girls already know this person is out there and what she means.No one wants anything to do with her.I think we are all living like she doesn't exist actually and I'm not sure if that's good or bad.It's like knowing there are murderers out there but you don't live in fear of them everyday.You live your life.That is what we were doing until now.I don't know if his attempts will continue though.That is the big question at this stage.
Thanks for posting to me.
O
BW(me)40
DDay 10/11/03
Divorcing
'The Reformer'- enneagram type 1
~Let Higher Minds Prevail~
---------------
~Life isn't complicated,we make it that way~
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,074
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,074 |
Just a thought. Maybe it really does bother him that life at the old homestead is going on without him. If he is trying to irk you, maybe he is really bothered that you are letting him go, and underneath it all, lets face it, he was enjoying the attention he was getting from both of you. Maybe he really was trying to get to you. See-you're not playing his game anymore. I like the idea of the girls venting their feelings. I think that would be helpful.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,380
Member
|
|
OP
Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,380 |
Hi NJ,
Yeah.My Mom and I both noticed how much he wanted to keep talking to me and keep my engaged(drama).He used to spell out EMERGENCY in his e-mails to me when I told him I would not be reading them for awhile.But I do think that scheme has lost it's luster since I only e-mail him once or twice a week now,if that.Once the D is over for good,I will really have no reason to e-mail at all.I wouldn't even call him in an emergency since there would be nothing he could do for 7.5 hours(time to get into town).I would of course call if something happened to the children,naturally.
I don't know about my girls though.See,they are,shall we say,pampered and protected.Shielded from a lot of the worlds mess in the sense that our home life is very peaceful and they live a nice life.The idea that their own dad is doing this abominable thing is not only hurtful to them,but they don't fully understand it being young and they had such a loving family before all this came out that it's hard for them to express it I think.They are such sweet,darling and smart girls.They are dealing with betrayal too in such a hard way.That the world isn't so nice a place and that their own dad has changed that for them.
I have always taught them to be helpful and try to to see the blessings in life not always just the hardhsips that are presented to us.They are torn between the life I lead with them here,peaceful,calm and stable and the one that their dad is living,that's out there and confusing to them and that hurts.They want to be with him but I don't know what the future holds with all this.We are taking it week by week.
Anyway,we will be having another girls group discussion in a couple days to talk about what happened.I wish I didn't have to work tonight.Oh well.
Thanks.
O
BW(me)40
DDay 10/11/03
Divorcing
'The Reformer'- enneagram type 1
~Let Higher Minds Prevail~
---------------
~Life isn't complicated,we make it that way~
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,407
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,407 |
TA,
My WH and I had an agreement that we would not introduce the girls to anyone else for at least a year after the D was final.
This was very naive for either of you to believe this would happen.
Is your husband never to see OW when he has custody of the children?
Are you not to see any males for one year?
These goals were set way too high, maybe one month.
Up until now, he abided by that.But like usual he does what he wants selfishly no matter who it hurts.
I agree. all WS are extremely selfish and most likely your husband is a JERK.
Are you talking to him? Maybe if there was better communication this would have been handled better? Like maybe you being there also.
Do your children know your getting divorced? If so, I don't think it's such a big deal. If you were only seperated or trying to reconcile, then yes it's a very big deal.
If you knew your husband was a jerk and you are the one who filed then you had to expect some type of reaction, correct?
He could have easily said he was going out to a concert and left it at that.But instead he chose to hurt the children and tell them the details.
He's a big jerk. Dr Phil said to tell the children that Mommy and Daddy don't Love each other the way couple should so they are going to move on. The parents should let the children know they still "Like each other" (even though we know they don't).
I think you are still partly responsible for this, sorry.
Being fairly certain only meant that I would have hoped he would keep to his word since he is CONSTANTLY trying to tell me how honest he is being and doesn't lie,"just look at the facts".BS! I have called him on every single lie and omission and he is still living in fantasyland.
His fantasyland will come crashing down shortly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I think you and your husband should sit down with the kids together and tell them everything they need to know. The cats out of the bag. Don't you sit down alone, you'll be no better than your selfish husband.
Next you state that I am to blame and then you state that I am hoping for a reprieve. You are way out of line.
Then what is the big deal about waiting until the divorce is Final or 1 year later. Dr Phil said children know what's going on, even if you don't say one word. Especially your eldest daughter.
Nothing could be further from the truth and it's clear how uninformed you are.I am the one who filed TA and I have not looked back since.
Yes you have, we all hurt. If you could go back and change things you would. I know I'll look back with sadness, you're only human.
I don't even want to know this man anymore,he is unrecognizable to me as is.
This applies to all WS, they are all the same. I have no F'n idea who my sweet, beautiful, innocent, wife is. She is some alien to me. Sometimes I look at her and wonder "what the hell happened to her that she allowed herself to become."
I will not talk to a man whose sole purpose now is for us all to accept the homewrecker and let bygones be bygones.
Dr Phil said "you have to talk to your husband as long as the kids are around. If you don't the children will eventually Disrespect YOU.
Do you think I really want to talk to my wife if we divorce? I know my children love us both so we have to be cordial. I have to treat my wife with respect in front of my children.
You should have watched Dr Phil yesterday, he was letting couples have it 10x worse than what I'm saying.
We are still coping,better,but coping. OP's have no business whatsoever being around our children.PERIOD.
Dr Phil said this is Legal and the courts cannot stop it. You have to accept it.
I wouldn't take my WH back if he were the last man standing.
I'll bet you would take back the husband you married. I don't want my WW back either. I want the woman I married, I've seen her from time to time over the last 8 months. It's what keeps me going.
Where did I say I vented to my children? You are full of misinformation and are coming to your own conclusions.
It's clearly obvious, just like Dr Phil said yesterday "it's a slippery slope."
Get your facts straight.You can already hear me disrespecting my children's father?
Yes
Where? Do you have a tap on my phone? I haven't even said a word yet to him about last night and you don't know me.
Your attitude says it all. I guarantee if I saw the way you spoke to your mother while your children were around the venom would be clearly obvious.
I would appreciate it if you do not post to me anymore.
Maybe the truth hurts? I'm sorry for what you are going thru, I truly am.
I may be going thru the same myself and it sucks.
Your phoney wellwishes and response were most unhelpful.
[b]I was being sincere. I know right now you are hurt and angry. You have every Friggin right to be. Just think of your 2 beautiful daughters, they love your husband or they woldn't be crying themselves.
He's a F'n scumbag as far as I'm concerned, but your daughters need a father, they only have one.
Hopefully your husband will eventually realize what he has done to hurt them.
This is why it is Important for YOU to take charge and quit avoiding your husband.
Tell him not to seek revenge or to hurt you thru the children.
Regardless of what happens in your marriage, children are Blessings from God. God bestowed those two beautiful children to both of you for a reason.
Sit down with your husband and ONLY talk about the kids, NOTHING else.
I'll say a prayer for all of you (incl your husband).
I still think you can save this marriage "if" YOU want to. You may not believe this, but deep down inside your husband is hurting also.
Peace
Andrew
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,912
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,912 |
OctoberGirl, It's amazing that people who would never beat their children - or call them names, or even spank them, will do somethign to them that is so incredibly destructive. Have you read The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce? It's a report of a study of the children of divorce - followed longterm over 15 years (at least) after their parents divorce. It's a very sad tale. If you H really knew how much he is hurting his children, would he still do it? If my W really knew how much she is hurting our child, would she still do it? I don't know. But, I hope not. The sad truth is that you cannot shield your children from this. You can try, but ultimately, they will suffer - dispite your best efforts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> -AD
Last edited by AD_the_Engineer; 06/02/05 09:25 AM.
A guy, 50. Divorced in 2005.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,178
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,178 |
10girl, consider how long it's been. You think he figures, okay, enough time has gone by, now it's okay? In essence he has declared your agreement past its expiration date. Your resistance is unreasonable to him, because you're getting divorced. Why shouldn't the girls know the HW?
Your little girl's sobs and swollen eyes answer that one well enough on their own, don't they?
Well, like you know, WS work hard to think everything they do is okay, and many are expert at finding loopholes that make their affairs not affairs.
GC
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 15,310
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 15,310 |
O:
In my opinion, there is a lot of value and wisdom in what TA/Andrew is saying to you.
I understand how it may be difficult to listen to him.
However, he is being "real" with you....
JMHO....
I made it happen..a joyful life..filled with peace, contentment, happiness and fabulocity.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 490
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 490 |
OG,
Sorry to hear this is happening. I have to tell you although the A made me mad when this type of stuff happened in my life the anger I had regarding the A was nothing compared to this!
I have lived through some absolutely horrible and stupid selfish decisions my WW made. My WW decided to introduce my kids to OM while I was out of town. Even though we were just about to sign an agreement which said that this wasn't suppose to happen without the other parent being notified. And I also had made it pretty clear NUMEROUS times that I didn't think this was a good idea.
You can't trust them at all OG. Once they've started the selfish ball rolling with the A, watch out!
Protect your kids as best you can (which is difficult legally in these circumstances), support them and be the shoulder they can cry on, and prepare them for more crap that is sure to happen with WH.
Give up trying to reason with WH... You know that won't work but make sure he understands the consequences of his actions (ie your daughters reaction). If he's anything like my WW he'll probably say, "Oh are you sure it was about OW? Maybe they had a bad day at school?" Or some crap like that.
Hang in there! Your doing fine. No hitman ok?
Miker
I was the BS - 36
She was the WS - 36, PA with MM
DS8, DD13, DD15 - All living with Dad
DDay 05/04, Divorced 08/05
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,091
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,091 |
It's so very hard to shelter your children from EVERYTHING....and sometimes I think that it's unrealistic to try to.
Our oldest daughter (then 10 yrs old) ended up with WAY to much info about my H's A. Some she deducted on her own......but alot of it came from my H.
This caused her to have suicidal thoughts. Luckily she has worked through it.
Having your children write their father a letter is a VERY good idea. My daughter wrote her father several letters. I only read the first one.....because she posted it on our front door for him to see when he came to see them for the first time after he left in a huff one night.
It said.......Liar, liar, liar. That's what your name should be because that is all you do. You said that you would always be here at night so that when I had a nightmare I could come to you. Where were you last night? I hate you!
I encouraged her to write all the letters she wanted and to talk to her father about anything. She eventually got to a point where she wouldn't talk to him at all. I always stood by her decisions.
After so long I finally got to a point where I didn't even try to answer her questions anymore (I couldn't speak for someone I didn't know) and told my H that I was making a list of questions that our daughter would like to have answered and it was his job to answer them.
I don't think he answered ALL of the questions. He said it was degrading getting drilled by his daughter. Oh well....he made the mess and he needed to clean it up.
I NEVER talked about my H in front of the girls.....good or bad after that. I never talked badly of him in front of them anyway. No matter what he did he was still going to be their father....nothing I could do about that.
Actually....it finally got to a point where our oldest WANTED ME to find someone else. She didn't ever want her dad back in our lives. She was very upset when she found out that we were going to reconsile.
I made my H's business NONE of mine. If he said something to the girls I would tell them that I didn't know why their dad said or did such things....I was as confused about it as they were.....and encuoraged them to ask their father the questions they were asking me. Of course it was really only our 10 year old as the youngest 2 really didn't understand any of it....though they were affected greatly by it.
It's really sad how the WS doesn't see how they are destroying their bond with their children.
BS(me) 35 - WH -36 / 3 Daughters / Multiple DDays / Seperated 3 Times/ In Recovery Since 10/01
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 490
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 490 |
TA,
I take it from your posts that you don't have kids?
Well I've experienced exactly what OG has and think of the anger you had when you found out about your WW's A? Multiple that by 10 and that's where she's at.
Yes you are correct that she's got to be careful how this is handled to not make it worse for the kids but think back to how you were on DDay and how you felt. I tell you the emotions associated with OP and your children are far larger than with OP and you WS. Scary isn't it!
Cheers,
Miker
I was the BS - 36
She was the WS - 36, PA with MM
DS8, DD13, DD15 - All living with Dad
DDay 05/04, Divorced 08/05
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,407
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,407 |
TA,
I take it from your posts that you don't have kids?
We have 2 wonderful children. A boy 11 and a girl 15.
Well I've experienced exactly what OG has and think of the anger you had when you found out about your WW's A?
Multiple that by 10 and that's where she's at.
Yes you are correct that she's got to be careful how this is handled to not make it worse for the kids but think back to how you were on DDay and how you felt. I tell you the emotions associated with OP and your children are far larger than with OP and you WS. Scary isn't it!
Yes, and I'd like to KILL OM. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
|
|
|
|
0 members (),
162
guests, and
61
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums67
Topics133,622
Posts2,323,491
Members71,964
| |
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
|
|
|
|
