And it's just the beggining...

I'm new here, but I've been reading for several months, even before the D-day in February. I haven't found strength to post though. We have been having problems actually from day one of our marriage (exactly 6 years) ago, but I always believed there's a way to overcome them. Since I disovered the EA (WH claims there was no PA, but I'm not sure if I believe) and tons of porn films and photos on his computer I'm not so sure any more. It seems pointless at times... I am not even sure if I still love WH any more, not mentioning he's not sure either.

I think the A is over now (I confronted OW with some facts about H, he conviniently forgot to mention - like that he's married and has a baby). I decided to quit snooping for a time, because it was doing more harm to me than any good. I wasn't able to keep what I found to myself and got hysterical very fast. I also snooped before, but not for an affair, but for unpaid bills, debts made in my name, etc. H has always been doing things like that and that's how I discovered the A.

I would like to follow Plan A, but at the moment I'm so hurt and raging. Why shall I be good to H, when I'm so hurt, when my needs have been neglected for so long, when I've been lied to so often. We have also had problems with sex from year one of our marriage. H claims he doesn't want to sleep with me, but chooses porn instead.

We've been talking abot DV very often recently, but I'm too scared to make it happen at the moment. One thig is financial issues (H got me bad into debt and with very bad credit report) and because I am not living in my home country (H won't let me go back to my home country with our D).

We may try counseling, but I know it's hard to find someone who is pro-marriage and also it won't solve our problems with sex life. We made an attempt to get therapy for that, but H decided to quit before we even started.

I know I am very dependant on H, which partially got me so deep in the troubles. It started because I married young and didn't speak the language and it never changed, even when I had a good job and my own money. The way to go would be to get me more independent, possibly without making H mad. To stop me feeling like a door mat. To get me out of depression and out of the feeling I'm worth nothing. I cannot change H, but I can change myself. I don't want my D to copy my life path.

I would also need to change my thinking into trying to satisfy H's needs instead of trying to hurt him like he hurt me.

I know what to do, but I don't know HOW. I've been living like that for so long, that it seems almost a mission impossible. Please, help me make sense of my life again.

Thank you

me - 28
WH - 37
D - 18 months

Gosia-

I'm not sure if anyone can tell you *how*, you have to find the will to do Plan A, inside yourself, somehow. Set a date for how long you're going to do it first, that helps, so you have a definitely plan....6 months is what it says in the book......so that would be December. That way you know your not going to fill his EN's without having yours filled indefinitely.

Just my 2 cents.

-Caren

Caren, thanks so much for your advice. I think setting a timeframe is a good idea, I hpe it's going to help. I still have some questions, though, to all of you who have experience.

The A is over, I can say it also because WH is still angry with me with opening OW's eyes. He claims he doesn't want a D, but HE gives conditions I have to meet. I shall forget what happened, I am not allowed to cry, talk about A or R, I must be cheerful, I am not allowed to demand anything from WH. On his side, WH won't pretend nothing happened, he won't go out with me (a major fight point even before A, we never ever go out or do fun things together and WH doesn't want to start), he keeps the right to be aggressive towards me, when I cry.

Is Plan A a good way to go? Or is it only reserved for the time when the A is still happening? What should I do now instead, if Plan A is not an option? I can go to my parents (in another country) for the time until I go back to work next January (I'm on maternity leave until then and finishing my degree), but I know if I go, I will never come back to WH.

Sorry for asking so many questions, but I'm simply at the end. I just don't know what to do. I don't want a D, but I don't want to live like I did. WH claims the A was because I complained so much about our R before. That's true, but I also want my EN met. I want to go out, to have a life, I want to have sex. I can of course forget about all this for a time and do Plan A, but I want to know that it makes sense.

Thanks or reading!

Orchid: What have you read from MB? Surivivng an Affair? Love must be tough? If you are ready you may need to be more aggressive and do a plan B. Can you go and visit your family with your D? Sounds like you may need to get away from the WS. He is still that you know, a WS. Why? Because his anger shows he is still in the A. At least in his mind and heart. That is dangerous to you even as is.



Orchid: Don't make life changing decisions. I think if you can put yourself in a safe place for a while, it w/b better for you and the baby. Even if your degree goes on hold for a while the time away from the WS w/b good for you. Maybe you will have the strength to do what you need when you are ready. It will could also make your H dominate over the Ws and squelch the WS so that only your H remains and then you w/b ready to come home.



Orchid: U r not asking too many questions. You are justified in wanting it to end. Don't let your H make conditions for you. YOu did not have the A, he did. You s/b making conditions for him to make you feel safe.

Can you get with a good MC in your area? If you are in the US, can you call Steve @ MB?


L.

Gosia,

I am sorry that you have to go through this. Being in a foreign country so far from your family makes it all the more difficult. Do you have some good friends that you can trust to support you?

Your daughter is still young. You have some important decisions to make. Do you want to be married to your H for the rest of your life in his country?

Do you have dual citizenship? What about your daughter?
You should get some legal advice. Inform yourself of your rights in the case of divorce or separation. Can you leave the country with your daughter permanently without your WH's consent? what are your rights in the case of separation or divorce? How much financial support will you get from the government and/or your WH?

Read the books recommended by Orchid.

Get out the big guns. Calmly tell your WH exactly what your boundaries are. What kind of behavior you will not accept from him if you are to live together.

Plan A is difficult, it is not for wimps, but once you really "get" it, it will be a healing process for you. It will be all about becoming the person that you are meant to be. It will be about concentrating on your children and being a good and cheerful mother. It will be about finishing your degree and rejoicing in your success. It will be about being a calm, confident and cheerful person. At first it is just an act, but with practice that is what you become. It is about setting your own personal boundaries.

Inform yourself of your rights in the case of divorce or separation. Prepare yourself for the possibilty that you may have to live on your own and get comfortable with that. Depending on where you live, you might be better off financially without your WH. Let the fact that you know you can survive on your own and live a fulfilling life without your H give you confidence.

Please read the link in my signature

Thanks so much for your answers, things are starting to clear a teeny tiny bit for me. I am trying to read as much as possible, I am going to order some books, but it's going to take a couple of days until they arrive, so I keep reading anything I find online.

I have already done my research on D. I cannot take D out of the country permanently at the moment without H consent. He has agreed to me taking her for a couple of months until we settle and file a D. I could cheat on him here and file a D in my home country, claiming his fault and demanding solitary parental rights for D. I have proofs of his A (even though it was only emotional) and could win it, but at the moment it wouldn't be a way to go. H loves D and he spends a lot of time with her. Taking her out of the country would practiacally shut this closeness and affection. I would have huge difficulties to find a job there, but I would have my family willing to help. I have only one citizenship of my home country, D has dual. I could apply for dual, but really don't need it, as I have permanent resindence and work permit and both countries are EU, so no real reason to do so. Most probabely I would be staying here anyway, because I have a good job waiting for me, something one doesn't throw easily facing the huge unemployment.

Unfortunately D would mean financial hardbacks for me. I wouldn't be getting any support for me (I was the main breadwinner before D was born) and very little for D. I would have to arrange for additional childcare after daycare . H knows I can in fact survive on my own, and he is willing to help me if I decide to file for a D. He is paying back my debt at the moment and says he is going to continue doing so (the debt is in my name, but made by H without my consent - still I wouldn't be able to proove it).

So much about the legal situation.

Emotional - I'm not really sure. I went for one month to my parents, but it was not the best idea. My parents and my brother were taking good care of me and D and coming back was painful. H claimed he was happy that we were coming back, he tried being nice and caring but I must admit I blew it up. I hated so much coming back to all the pain and resentment that instead of appreciating what he was doing I was only crying and blaming him for me having to come back. This makes him very aggressive, but not in a physical way. He also doesn't call me names, just shouts or says to let him alone.

I started implementing my very lame Plan A yesterday and things seem to be better. H was nice yesterday evening, called me today in the lunch break. I definitely need to take care of myself more and get a life. My life is not really empty, except for being a SAHM I have my school, and I'm getting really good grades, I have my hobbies and interests. What I really miss and have huge problems with is socializing. I have had problems in this area since pre-school and have been working on it for several years. Unfortunately since becoming a SAHM it only got worse, but I'm ready to work on it again. I started today with calling my best friend here in B. and telling her what happened and why I have been so evasive since February. She was very nice and offered to help me get out of the house more often.

At the moment I feel that taking care of myself is the best thing I can do. I also don't think going to my parents is not the best option. I would enjoy staying there but would face exactly the same problems while coming back here. I would feel even more lonely. I think working on getting a life in B. is the better option.

The thing I need to decide now is how do I act towrads WH. A-planish or B-planish. Do I try to have fun and invite him to join and re-learn to have fun at all. Or have fun all alone and let him veg all alone in front of the tv like he's been doing for years, until he decides to work on fulfilling my needs?

I went through EN and there are some posotives. We still talk a lot, not only about D, but also about politics, etc. We have always done so. His EN that doesn't get met is one for admiration (and it's the most important one for him). He has screwed so many things in the last years that I was not willing to fulfill this need of his. My unmet EN are SF and having fun time together.

Shall I try fulfilling his needs (Plan A) for a certain amount of time to show him, that it can be great and then demand again that he fulfills mine? He is willing to go into MC, but I don't know about any really good MC here. We are going to try one place, because it's free for couples with children, but it might be too child-oriented. We actually have no money for fully paid MC at the moment. I am going to try some IC for myself, because it would be covered by my insurance.

Thanks for your insights. I am trying to find a way to survive all this and end with a better life than I had before.

Goisa,

Our situations are so similar!! Do take a look at all the wonderful advice I have received on my threads! You might benefit from it also!

My WH won't fill in the EN questionaire, but it is apparent to me that his primary EN is admiration. This is extremely difficult for me to fulfill at the moment since all the attributes that I once admired in him have disappeared. I'd have a hard time pretending to admire him for those things that are now completely absent and would feel a total hypocrit if I faked it. I have solved this for myself by imagining that my H --- an honest, loving, respectful man of integrity --- has been kidnapped by aliens. His body is still here, but it is inhabited by a complete moron. Still H's only contact to earth is through a fuzzy little screen that is sporadically transmitted by the moron. The message must be clearly defined and repeated exactly 1 million times before my real H receives it.

The trick is to calculate just when those 1 million times are expired and the chances of H ever returning to earth are gone. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

LostTranslation, thank you! I've read some of your threads and that's true, our situations are very similar. I also think there are similar underlying issues that make things even worse.

I have a lot of resentment for having given up so much to be with H. My language, my culture, my friends, my everything. The advantage is that we come from neighbouring countries, which is kinda like living in neighbouring states in America. I can visit fairly often, but I'm not living there any more.

Another thought I have (I know dangerous <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) is that integrating quickly in new environment may cause problems sometimes. I have friends from my home country and almost none of them is as well integrated as I am. Some don't even speak the language enough to go shopping after having lived here for years. I learnt the language within several months, got an education, found a job. As much as H loved me being the primary bread-winner, I think he didn't like the fact that I managed those things so well. He might have preferred me being much more dependant on him in a way.

Like I mentioned I have always had issues with socializing, which in part caused problems with me being still too clingy to H. It was kinda like, you took me here, so you take care of me now. This coupled with H having no friends and no need for friends or socializing ended like it did.

I must admit though, that even that little of Plan A is showing effect already. I know it's not going to last forever, but even temporary end of fighting is worth a lot. Especially as I have an additional problem. I went to work today to visit my co-workers and see my boss'es new baby and got very bad news. The company is in a very bad financial situation and I may get laid off very soon after I go back in February. I hope that things get better until then, because looking for a new job so short after maternity leave would be a nightmare. I'm not going to worry about it too much at the moment, though. We'll see what happens next year.

I like writing here, on MB, it helps me to sort out the mess in my head and decide how to get H to contribute to the recovery.

I found evidence of contact. So you were right about it not being over. It seems that OW doesn't care if he's married with a baby or not.

H won't let me really meet any of his ENs, except for clean house and food on the table. He seemingly cannot decide between "he doesn't love me any more, we have to start at null" and "I love you" depending on his mood. He continues being furious for me "invading his privacy" and generally wants me "to leave him alone".

Unfortunately I have no possibility to expose. He has no contact with his family, no friends, no boss (freelancing) and his only friend and business partner is helping him hide the A. My family and friends know already, but they have no influence on H. OW is single, she lives with her parents, but I cannot get the info on where they live.

I have to rethink what I'm going to do. If I want to work on saving this M at all and how to do it. Is it time for Plan B yet? Shall I go for let's say 3 months to my parents and cut contact with H?

It seems that the contact was only on OW's side and H is commited to NC. I see he behaves differently now, he doesn't jump when I enter the room unexpectedly, doesn't spend hours in front of the computer, etc. Of course I have no idea what he is doing at work, etc. He may or may not have finished it. He still won't let me have his mail passwords, etc.

I work hard at staying calm and not showing my feelings. He still won't let me meet his ENs really. He spends a couple of minutes at a time with me, but still doesn't want to spend e.g. an evening out.

I think it's extremely hard to offer admiration at the moment. I think any other EN would be easier to meet, but admiration is almost the only one he's interested in. I will try to work harder on finding reasons to show my admiration. Plan A is very difficult, hiding how hurt I am, hiding my unmet ENs is really challanging... But I think I should continue doing it for some more time to bring him back closer to us.

I have also been thinking a lot about his general attitude. I think he is and has been depressed for a long time. Yet, he refuses to get any help for that. He prefers to go to sleep at 8 pm, he has no motivation to do almost anything fun. He's easily annoyed, etc. Yet whenever I suggest getting help, he gets mad for me interfering with his life. Sigh... I have noticed recently, that he has started to get on with his life, leaving me aside. I hate it, but cannot do anything about it. E.g. he got a bike and seems to enjoy riding it. I would also want one, be he says we cannot afford it at the moment. I am a SAHM at the moment and really hate it. I so wish I had my own money, but I will only be going back to work in February.

I'm trying hard to improve my own life, work on my issues. Go out more, instead of staying home. It's really difficult for me though, as I have very little support network here. Still, I think pretend until it comes naturally, is the only way to go for me. I need to decide what my priorities are, as far as my issues are concenrned. Mostly I feel like my thoughts are drown in maple sirup, they slip away, whenever I try to catch them... I want to be back to my old, sharp self!!!!

Gosia,

I'm by no means a vet, I'm still on a bumpy road and my marriage far from recovered. I can only advise you on my own experience.

Since getting to know MB principles, I first began my own personal recovery, now things are in more of a crisis than ever before, but the responibilty of the affair has been transferred to my spouse. Thisis such a relief and was important for three main reasons:
1. I have been able to find a modicum of peace, understanding, healing, and enlightenment
2. Wh is now having to bathe in the consequences of his actions
3. because of nr. 2 My children and I have been able to rest, recover, and repair some of the damage done to our family because of the A.

Stick to plan A yet. Do lots of reading on this site, plus the Hrley books and the link in my signature. You need a true, good Plan A --- think of it as penance for your contribution to what made the A possible. Done properly, I think that we will feel when our penance is done and be then we will have grown mature enough for Plan B. Plan B, (Ithink, but I'm not there yet) is about letting go. It's about having a fulfilling life without WH. By then, it may be that we have outgrown our spouses. They will have a lot of cathing up to do agter hiding from accountability under their rocks. I imagine that by the time we are ripe for Plan B, we will be ready for a new beginning --- with or without our spouses.

I hope that some of the more experienced members contribute here. I am such a newbie.

LT, thanks so much. I'm finding it more and more challanging to move to Plan A. The A seems to be trully over, although I can't say so for sure, because H won't let me look into his e-mail account, voice mail, etc. He seems to enjoy me letting him in peace and not wanting anything from him and already moved to the everything is like before mode.

In a way everything is like it was before, but I have changed. I am not willing any more to stay in a marriage like that. Not only it would be only a question of time that he has an A again, only better covered this time. I have been kinda tempted to look for someone myself, but I never seriously considered it, it's just not how I handle problems. But I'm more and more ready to be done with this R and move on and see if there are any other possibilities for me.

I talked with H yesterday and told him I wanted him to read at least parts of this website, but he said he doesn't believe in such BS and aren't we set for MC anyway? I'm just afraid that again he thinks that just attending MC is going to solve our problems. He's just not willing to work on the M, no matter what. Or he'll agree to do, but will never make even the smallest step in this direction.

I also think that he has withdrawn even more from the R. He started buying things for himself only, which he didn't do before. He ignored my birthday, nameday, etc.

I'm not willing to live with a serial liar any more. He's been lying to me even before we got married (I didn't know about it then) and I'm so sick of it. He is entitled to spend money on whatever he wants, even when I was the only breadwinner, now even more. He would use my credit card to buy things for himself and finds it OK that I am left with all this debt to pay back.

He is a good father to DD, he enjoys her, but even with her, he hates it when she opposes him. I can see that it's going to escalate in the future, when she's grown a bit and becoe more independent.

I would like to save this M, I am willing to work on it. But I'm less and less sure that it's worth it and less and less willing to do it alone.

Gosia,
I'm bumping this up for you in the hopes that some more experienced members will be able to help you out on this.

The tough thing about Plan A is that you are doing your best to fulfill your WS's ENs and are not getting yours met. Sooner or later you are running on empty and you start loosing your love for your WS.

I think you need to do a couple of things:

1. Set a time limit for yourself (don't tell your WH) in which you will do Plan A, working on yourself and correcting the things that you were doing to create an environment that made your WS's A possible.

2. Set boundaries for yourself to maintain your self-respect, safety, and well-being. Define these boundaries clearly in a friendly manner to your spouse. Remind him of these boundaries immediately as needed in a firm, but friendly fashion without threats as to what will happen if he does not respect these boundaries. (This is a tough one.)

3. Think about a recovery plan. What things do you require in order to restore your marriage. As an example, for me this would be integrating a policy of joint agreement in our marriage as well as complete openess an honesty and of course NC with the OW. Like your H, mine is also a conflict avoider and evidently he will resort to lies and deceit in order to avoid conflict. I don't think that my H is a chronic, habitual lier, but when put under pressure in conflict situations he will either flee, or when "cornered" lie. This is definitely something that will require either IC, MC, or both.

To me, it sounds as if you are loosing your love for WH. If you are satisfied with the changes you have made to yourself, it may well be time to go dark and do Plan B. The tool of exposure will not bring a whole lot for you, so when you do Plan B, do it right. This is the last chance to save your M. Having absolutely NC with your WS is vital. First, it is time for you to move on and gain some emotional distance and get comfortable with the thought of being a single Mom now and in the future. Second, WH will finally have to take responsibility for his actions and face the consequences.

I hope this helps some and that more experienced members will jump in.

I'm bumping again fo gosia in the hopes that some of the vets will repy...