He's living in Provo, working. He's recently completed his EMT course and passed the state certification exam, waiting for the paperwork so he can drive an ambulance.

He's gone off his meds, but seems to be OK for the most part. No psychotic behavior. There is a high level of anxiety, most of it centered around his fear of getting cancer. He worries about future cancer but continues to medicate his anxiety with smoking, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> But he's not using anything else as far as I can tell .... and in the past, he telegraphed when he was using drugs or alcohol with pretty obvious behaviors.

Most of his current problems are nearly age-appropriate to someone his age venturing out into the world rather unprepared for real life <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> ... and for that, I thank God every day.

He makes attemps to remain a master manipulator of his Mom, and I have gotten a pretty good handle on my own issues that permitted his manipulation of me. My H helps me with this and keeps me real. Nothing turns this Mom to muuushy-globs-of-enabling-behaviors faster than parental guilt.

Life at home continues to be wonderful without that stress. Our youngest has left-over issues from these past stressful times in the way of coping mechanisms that are mostly not going to serve her well. We're slowly extinguishing this hiding-head-in-the-sand-meekness way of coping for her. I don't want her to grow up wearing the weight of "the good child" medal of honor. She was managing to fly under the radar about her unmet needs for so long because we were putting out the other fires nearly daily. But no more.

So, in short, we're good! Thanks for asking.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

PEP:

Have you noticed on the manipulation thread that we have the same issues?

You are way past me. I'm catching up with you in my personal recovery.

I'm learning to rely on my H for assistance with my enabling of my manipulative son.....

I hear you, PEP.....

THANKS!

Excuse me for threadjacking....

Just saw this, will talk to you more tomorrow, when my brain is working again. (or sorta working.)

We have 8, five are married now. What an education.

SS

There are similarities Mimi ... but also great differences. Our son has been hospitalized 8 times for a mental/emotional problem ... and of course he had pre-natal drug exposure, and was abandoned by his parents ... so his trouble goes down to a cellular level I think. Hopefully, your son's issues are more of a developmental nature, and will pass with maturity and experience.. and maybe our son's as well ... but time will tell.

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

With TONS OF LOVE, HARD WORK and PRAYERS our sons will PROSPER! Right, PEP? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Someone asked me the other day, "Can you love your child too much?" I said no although I used to see myself this way. I think you can overindulge but not "love too much". What do you think? It seems to me that children suffer more from being unloved.

My sons have ADHD like my FWH. My YS had lots of medical problems from infancy to his teens... . He's basically physically healthy now. I "babied" him. I "babied" all of "my men". I'm focusing now more on taking care of my H. We now are working as a "team" in taking care of them. They continue to need lots of direction and guidance.

I'm wishing for them to find "good"(?)-for want of a better word- wives. I've been talking to them about what that means. They say that I have set a wonderful example. That feels good to hear.

I think you can overindulge but not "love too much". What do you think? It seems to me that children suffer more from being unloved.
____________________________________________________________

Define loving too much. I believe loving too much and overindulgance are closely related.

IMO by loving to much, you are overindulging because you lose site of the damage by loving to much.

This, I believe, is different for different people. Some people have special needs, so there threshold is probably higher than someone without those special needs.

I think that loving to much causes unrealistic dependancy and entitlement, and it is a shock to reality when the children go out on their own.

Could this have some effect on their view of life? does this cause unnormal dependancy or need for attention in later years? Possibly cause a need for that same "loving to much" need that can't be filled by a spouse that they need to get it somewhere else to fill a void?

I realize that the same could be said for not loving enough, but, I think it builds an unrealistic expectation from society that can't be filled.

Not to say you shouldn't love people, but to over love is not healthy. You have to be there for them, love them,(unconditional love) but teach them to love themselves and not depend/rely on love from others, or they will be constantyly looking for it.

Is this to deep, probably, but I think of this with my W, and oldest SD. And I see how it will hurt her in the future.

Am I way off base or do I have something?

I also wonder if it is more a female/motherly feeling.

Maybe it's just semantics.

I'm thinking of "loving" as a feeling that just "is".

I'm thinking of "overindulgence" as behavioral. I definitely was overindulgent.

I FEEL very strongly in my "LOVE" for my H and children. I often did not FEEL loved by my own parents although I was INDULGED by them, had everything that I wanted and needed.

Does this make sense?

I never felt "loved" by my family growing up, nor were we overindulged, which may be the reason for my insecurities, but, I do my best to show love to my W and kids, although evidently not enough for my W. but that aside, I let my children know how I feel, more so lately, but that there is also expectations from them. In turn, they will be rewarded for there efforts, but my love for them never wavers. They may not see it like this, but, I hope when they get out on their own, they will see it and understand.

I think for some, they want that now. that if they don't over love, that the kids won't love them back. Or that they feel that they owe the children more because of the change from an earning society to an entitlement society that has developed.
____________________________________________________________
I often did not FEEL loved by my own parents although I was INDULGED by them, had everything that I wanted and needed.
____________________________________________________________
For some parents, Indulgance is a show of love.

I have no idea why some things come to my mind like they do, but I have been wondering about him for a couple of weeks now. I'm not sure if I should be so curious, if I was a cat, I would probably be dead.

He's living in Provo, working. He's recently completed his EMT course and passed the state certification exam, waiting for the paperwork so he can drive an ambulance.

So he DID go back. I laughed when I read it. So good that he is working, and that he has completed the training. One of my sons just completed the same course, in connection with his summer job of fire fighting for the BLM.

He's gone off his meds, but seems to be OK for the most part. No psychotic behavior. There is a high level of anxiety, most of it centered around his fear of getting cancer. He worries about future cancer but continues to medicate his anxiety with smoking, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> But he's not using anything else as far as I can tell .... and in the past, he telegraphed when he was using drugs or alcohol with pretty obvious behaviors.

Improvement is improvement - but wish he would be smoke free. Hooked already?
I hate to see that in anyone, but especially young'ns.

Most of his current problems are nearly age-appropriate to someone his age venturing out into the world rather unprepared for real life <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> ... and for that, I thank God every day.

Who of us was prepared?
I wasn't, but God took care of us and he will L too. Your faith will do a lot for him until he gets his own. Perhaps he already has it?

He makes attemps to remain a master manipulator of his Mom, and I have gotten a pretty good handle on my own issues that permitted his manipulation of me. My H helps me with this and keeps me real. Nothing turns this Mom to muuushy-globs-of-enabling-behaviors faster than parental guilt.

It's not as bad for dads. Don't know why. I would think by now you would have it down pretty good - and be able to see it for what it is. My 19 year old son is a pretty good manipulator some days too. You should see me chuckle.

Life at home continues to be wonderful without that stress. Our youngest has left-over issues from these past stressful times in the way of coping mechanisms that are mostly not going to serve her well. We're slowly extinguishing this hiding-head-in-the-sand-meekness way of coping for her. I don't want her to grow up wearing the weight of "the good child" medal of honor. She was managing to fly under the radar about her unmet needs for so long because we were putting out the other fires nearly daily. But no more.

I started walking mornings with my youngest daughter. It is good for both of us. It is amazing how much a parent can acomplish by spending time with a child.

Does youngest understand what was going on with L, and how it affected you dealing with her?



So, in short, we're good! Thanks for asking.


Back in Provo............. LOL, you were right.
It is good to see you remark that Mr Pep is helping. I am happy for you.

Really glad things are good at your house. It's about your turn.

Also hope you are comfortable with your mom's absence. It seemed to be hard on you.

I enjoy reading your posts, both for the humor and for the advice. Keep it up.

SS

So he DID go back. I laughed when I read it.

[color:"blue"]I know ... the irony of it all!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> He had nothing good to say about the state and the population when he left the treatment center. Then he announced his decision to return there within a few months. We were laffing ourselves.

We never allowed him to move back in with us. His counselor said that would put the nail in his coffin ... push him out and keep him out. That was hard at times, but quite frankly, he was such a mess that it was the only sane choice after he turned 18.

Our daughter has made some observations about herself from time to time that have just about knocked me down. She laments her absence of a "real brother" ... because he was mostly gone from her life .... and this makes her sad. "I feel like an only child sometimes." They are trying to maintain a relationship, but she remains wary. (with good reason)

She recognizes her tendency to "hide and wait it out" when trouble arrives. When L. was manic she'd be sent to her room or across the street to the neighbors while we tried to get him under control ... and it might be hours that she'd be isolated alone , away from her family .... and this makes me so sad ... and I admit a little angry too.

So my H has final say on any help we offer him, because I am still too lenient ... but at least now I'm admitting the truth. L still makes an occasional attempt to divide us about a decision ... and I now only smile as I recognize this for what it is ...

It's funny, I feel like a better parent with him out of the home.

You are such a sweet guy SS ... you are so gentle and kind ... and I wonder if my raucous sense of humor doesn't embarrass you sometimes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

LOL

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />[/color]

[color:"blue"] When L. was manic she'd be sent to her room or across the street to the neighbors while we tried to get him under control ... and it might be hours that she'd be isolated alone , away from her family .... and this makes me so sad ... and I admit a little angry too.[/color]

God is good at working these kinds of things out. If she will stay close to him, and continue to do her personal best, and ask often, HE will make the necessarry changes in her. You would already understand about that though, wouldn't you.

[color:"blue"] So my H has final say on any help we offer him, because I am still too lenient ... but at least now I'm admitting the truth. L still makes an occasional attempt to divide us about a decision ... and I now only smile as I recognize this for what it is ... [/color]

It was not by accident that Father was in charge when it came time for Jesus to make his sacrifice. I don't know if Mother could have let it happen. It is not by accident that there are both. Mr Pep would not make nearly as good a mother. Think of your own mother - you know it has to be that way. I am glad that your children have both of you.


[color:"blue"] You are such a sweet guy SS ... you are so gentle and kind ... and I wonder if my raucous sense of humor doesn't embarrass you sometimes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> [/color]

I would be about the same if I typed every thing that came to mind. I laugh too.

Once I had a very abrasive, and perhaps crude personality. I vowed to change that.
I have to be careful how I say things, It would not be good for me to go back.

I think highly of you - humor and all.

SS

SS

In today's Los Angeles Times there was a front page story on "The Lost Boys" who are getting help in St. George after being exiled from a polygamist sect in Arizona. This is so sad.... do you help any of these boys? They arrive, according to the story, undereducated and unfamiliar with social skills and are extreemly vulnerable. It just seemed like something you might be familiar with.

Just curious. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> as always....

Pep

I don't have first hand knowledge of any boys that have come recently.

And, no I haven't worked directly with them over the years. This has been on going for a long time. I do know some that came in the 70's and 80's that are doing well.

It's even more difficult for the girls that leave - some with children.

Right now they are in the spotlight for some instances of abuse, and are being investigated by the state Attorney General. Some good has already come of it, but I don't know how far it will go toward curbing the problems.

I have noticed you are always curious. Same as yours truely.

SS