Pep:

You stated in your conversation with SS:



Please share, if you don't mind, what you have learned regarding "your issues" that "permitted his manipulation"? Figuring this out is a priority for me in terms of my own personal recovery right now. I am wondering what your experience has been.

In my off-the-forum life, I have not come in contact with other mothers who have been willing to voice this same struggle to me.

I find it interesting that you also stated:


As I mentioned to you previously, we also have adopted that strategy. I wasn't sure that it was the proper idea. H has said: "Let me help you with this..." I admire your admission of this problem and ability to rely on your H for assistance. My H and I are just now learning to work as a TEAM.

You also said:


I have felt this way, too. Even when he goes out for the evening, I feel better... I had been feeling guilty about this.

I want to hear from any of you who also struggle with these issues. I heard PEP loud and clear so am responding directly to her for that reason.

Thanks for listening!!

Mimi, first of all, how old is your son? Are you dealing with age appropriate problems or special problems?

My son is 25.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Ok Mimi ... a bit later tho ... I'm in the middle of something ... just letting you know I see this.

Pep

Hi Susan:

Thanks for asking.

I know for sure that these are major issues of mine that have caused problems for my sons, my marriage and my family. This has been pointed out to me by other therapists and most recently by Steve Harley. To make a long story short, MY PLAN, devised by Steve, included learning not to allow our son to manipulate and contribute to division between my H and I. So some of this is age-appropriate with our son and much of it is not.

I found it difficult to frustrate the children, didn't want them to cry, wanted to them to have anything they wanted, was overindulgent... It was not emotionally healthy for them. For many years, H did it best to intervene and I ignored him, continued to do MY own sick way as if he was not also a parent. Get the picture?

Why did I do this? Why is it hard for me to stop? Why is it hard for me to bear their unhappiness?

I heard PEP speaking about this and wondered what she has learned?

Our oldest son is 22 and is doing well now that he is on his own but he suffered from this as well. Our youngest son is 18, comes home now from college....

College age is a really hard time. They are feeling grown, but still being supported by their parents. After living away from home it is just as hard for them to come home from college as it is for you to have them home. They are used to doing their own thing and keeping their own schedules. They come home and have to abide by the rules at home.

We are somewhat past that stage because our son is 25, has spent a year in the Middle East, and now owns his own home and is totally self-sufficient.

However, he is a very moody male. For years I took the blame for his emotions thinking that it stemmed from our prior problems. When he was in one of his "moods" I saw it as my responsibility to try to pull him out of it.

What happened instead was that I ended up letting him hurt my feelings and bring me down with him.

I went to Alanon partially to help me learn to detach from his moods and feelings.

Just this past week he was sitting outside on our deck with my husband. I went outside and asked him a question. He was rude and short in his answer to me. But you know what? Now I just ignore him, smile to myself and say "oops...not a good day for talking" and go about whatever it is I need to do. I go back into the kitchen and tend to my cooking or laundry or whatever.

In the past I'd let him reduce me to tears. Now I realize that it is not about me or anything I have done. It is not my responsibility.

When this happens, the best thing that I can do is say whatever it is I need to say to him (if I simply have to relay information to him for some reason) and then either get out of the room or off the phone with him.

Eventually he comes around and is in a better mood and he will call me!

I have to detach from his unhappiness. I cannot force him to talk or be happy. I can't pull him out of his grumpy mood.

And overindulging him did not make him happy. His happiness cannot be bought with stuff. I've discovered that he is happier and more appreciative of things he has to wait on or work hard for himself.

I don't know if any of this is any help or if it applies to your situation at all. Some of this works itself out with age and maturity but his moods are his to deal with and for me to detach from.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

My issues are (some at least if not all)...

This particular child came to us pre-wounded as a 3-year-old ... and because of this ... in my mind, he was "rescued" by us.

He was hurt so much in his young life I wanted to protect him from further hurt. (impossible of course, but also NOT desirable)

This does not say that my decision to do this was because it would be good for him, instead it served my need to place myself in a certain role.

I remember falling in love with him and I went to my Dr. and cried to her .. "I just love him so much it literally hurts!"

This is the adoption miracle and the adoption trap as well..... I thought he needed special mothering because he had not had real mothering in his life.

Treating a kid like his poop doesn't smell is not good for the kid.

Protecting a kid from every day hurts weakens him. He does not learn how to manage his own life if it is managed from the outside by an all-powerful parent.

I lost my voice one time because I immersed myself into speach therapy with him. (He was 3 and still did not talk when he came to us) So I went on a binge of reading, naming every object in sight, and singing to him ... in order to teach him to talk and try to get him caught up ... and I abused my vocal cords so much I had to STOP speaking for 2 weeks! This is obsessive and not good for any kid to be that much in the spotlight ....

What gradually happened is that this kid developed strong expectations that his mother was there to solve life's problems, and that anything he did not wish to solve, hand it over to Mom.

With almost every adopted child, there is the dark day when the child is angry and says ... "You're not my real mother." And this is the ~mother of all manipulations~ by the adopted kid ....

Now, I say, "Well, sorry you feel that way." ... and because it no longer works to get him anything he wants ... it's becoming an extinguished behavior.

Here's how far I've come. He was living in a sober-living facility with strict rules. He broke the rules and was kicked out for 3 days ... my H and I did NOT take him in ... we left him to fend for himself and live on the street ... which was the best thing we've done for him. It's akin to Plan B ... allow him to experience the freedom he says he wants ... freedom from all rules ... he hated it, and he called my husband and said, "Dad, I'm ready to quit. These drugs are kicking my [censored]." ... and Mimi, I did this guilt-free .... notice I said guilt free and NOT worry-free. I did nothing to get him on the drugs or on the street .... and I should not feel guilty about things I did or do that are not evil or intended to harm.

Here's my advice Mimi ...Reserve your guilt for when you are guilty of doing something you should feel bad about ... and not for when your son is upset, or whatever might be making him unhappy ... allow him to feel his own unhappiness without your feeling you should be experiencing guilt.

Remove the guilt from the situation. Just shove it away from you. Then look at the situation and make decisions without the wrongly-placed guilt.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Susan:

Thank you so much for listening and responding.

The concept of thinking of our son as "moody" is helpful. I have been trying to come up with what he is. He is difficult. "Moody" is a great descriptor.

You said:



YEP! Sense of overresponsibility has been an issue for me. Working on this in many aspects of my life! Interesting that you mention ALANON. I am Adult Child of an Alcoholic and took a lot of responsibility for fixing things/taking care of everybody in the family. I'm letting that role go!!!

You said:



You know what? My son has actually told me this? "Why can't we just be unhappy ?" (in reference to him and his brother).

You said:



Yes. H got him a menial labor, really hard-working job for the summer. I have learned to will myself not to try to rescue from this when he comes home and complains about it. I'm learning to tolerate listening to his unhappiness about the rigors of the job. A large part of him has seemed to enjoy me allowing him to vent without running in to fix things. Plus, he seems to really enjoy the job despite his complaints.

I'm learning and growing. It's great to have someone like you who has been here/there to share with about this, Susan.

Thanks.

Thanks so much for responding, PEP.

Our children weren't adopted nor emotionally wounded early on in life but I felt the same way as you about them. This sounds like words out of my own mouth:



I wonder if I projected my own early childhood wounds onto them. I "fell in love" with my children and "out of love" with my H. That sounds bizarre but I think that's what happened and my H felt it... OUCH!!....

This may sound even more bizarre.

You said this, PEP:



This is exactly how I felt and still feel about my H. I used to "mother" him before the children and have begun to "mother" him again. He does the same "nurturing" of me. However, my H was evidently wounded as a child, neglected by his M and continues to be neglected by her. There's this whole PARENTING thing going on with US... He couldn't understand the children getting what he didn't get anymore, felt abandoned by me. I did give too much to them while HE continued to take care of me. CONFUSING..... Trying to find the RIGHT BALANCE now....

ALL-POWERFUL PARENT..... They keep wanting to cast me in that role. Even, ALL-MAGICAL at times. I'm shedding myself of my MAGIC WAND AND CAPE, minute by minute, hour by hour.

"Sorry you feel that way"-useful phrase.....

I'm learning and growing from women like you, PEP. I hear you! SHOOING AWAY THE GUILT!!!

REALLY THOUGH, I have walked your paths and share your same feelings and my children are not adopted.

Thanks for taking your time out for this and sharing.....

Mimi, reading this, do you think THEY really cast you in that role?

Or could this be something YOU cast yourself in?

Because I find that kids typically do not think of their parents as all powerful. They usually think they don't know anything, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> and discover as they get older that we are smarter than they think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I love it now when my son calls to get my opinion on something. LOL
Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

There was a parenting thing going on with me too, but it is not my husband's job to fill what I was lacking as a child. A grown man cannot "mother" a grown woman. It would do me a huge disservice and vice versa with a grown woman "mothering" a grown man.

As an almost 50 year old woman, it is my issue to work out. At this stage in my life, mo person can make up for anything I may have been lacking in childhood.

I have to accept what is, learn how to live with it and make the best of my situation.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

It has been said that the object of parenting is to teach children to function without their parents.

So often we want to be there for them no matter what, when it is best for the child to learn to handle life on their own.


Part of the problem (speaking for our family, not yours) is that we want to be important to them, so we we take up that role of doing everything for them.

I see myself now as someone that gives guidence, not as a fixer. My talks with my children are more along the lines of "what do you think"
NOT
"do this, or do that"

and especially I stay away from
"let me do that for you."

They gain skills by practice.

Now, having said that - Our oldest son had been living away from home for about 4 years when he was in a car rollover accident. He was single, with no SO, and we got the call that he was in intensive care with a broken neck. We drove the 300 miles, and stayed with him until he was released. We kept him at home until he was well enough to work again. (5 months)

We did not pay his bills, or make the phone calls he needed made, he had to do that. We didn't get him a job, or replace his vechile.

We did what he could not do (brought him home, and cared for him early on while he was imobile) but let him do what he could do - even though it was hard for him.


Anyway, the best way to get them to function well without you is to have them practice it while they still live with you.

SS