Posted this in the 'in recovery' section, but was advised this might be the better place....

Wonder if I might trouble people for support.

My situation is as follows.

Married for 7 years, 1 child. Lots of problems in the marriage - we didn't do sex before marriage, so shut down what sexual chemistry we had, we argue a lot, there's co-dependence (me = addiction problems, W = 'helper' background). Sex was perhaps once a month for most of our marriage. Got really, really unhappy with the M, started talking about leaving over a year ago. Problems not dealt with, got very depressed about it.

I had an affair with a younger woman between Dec last year and April this year. It started as 'a bit of fun', but after a couple of months, we were falling in love - I found a care, kindness and level of common interest that was new to me, it was also very highly sexual (all these things were in a way W and I have never ever been). Realised in March that I was in a mess, so OW and I talked and decided to end it so that I could try to make my marriage work (obviously impossible when we were seeing each other) - didn't want to put her in a position of long term OW, nor trap me in an unhappy marriage never dealing with the issues because the A softened it for me. Read lots about affairs (including all of this site), the addictive qualities, the importance of NC, how to recover etc etc... Have had no contact with her (apart from an accidental meeting about 3 weeks ago, when we talked, and revealed to each other we still felt the same) for 10 weeks, when the A ended.

Tried to keep it secret, but realised I'd have to tell W if the M had any chance, so told her about the affair 2 weeks ago - she is completely devastated, extremely hurt by the details (particularly the sexual/romantic stuff) - realised how little I had thought about her when W was going on - I had got to a point where I really didn't care about her. Now I live with her and her pain, I find myself caring/pitying her, but love? - I don't know. She says she loves me and is willing to work through things. I have started seeing a therapist about addiction and repressing my emotions when I feel attacked (W often acts with angry/hostile towards me, so this happens a lot, and the A was a choice I made amid an explosion of repressed emotions overwhelming me, I realise now), we are also in MC.

W is telling me I need to make all the moves/do the running n the relationship, because I have hurt her so badly/behaved appallingly and it's up to me to 'make it up to her'. I don't feel love for her, so find this very hard, and even 6 months before the affair, had reached a point of despair with the M. When the affair started, I told her all my negative feelings and our relationship hit a crisis - I treated her appallingly badly during the A. She initially felt it was all her fault, got depressed and eventually realised how she had treated me, and apologised (this was during the affair, so I was almost oblivious to this confession at the time). Now, of course, the relationship is much worse than it was when I hit despair (although perhaps a lot more honest), so is a very, very unhappy place to be for both of us, yet I feel duty bound to try to make it work (for reasons of conscience, our son, etc - wife wants my reason for trying to be because I love her and feel she is special, but I'm not able to give her this yet). We have committed to six months to put the relationship first and see if we can work things out, after which we will decide whether to separate or commit to more time... I'm committed to trying, but am struggling hard to make moves towards a reconciliation that I'm unsure I want.

I am trying to do the right thing, because we're married, because I believe miracles can happen, love can be resurrected, God can change things, but feel miserable when I try to be affectionate and caring with W, because I feel I'm sinking back into a relationship that makes me feel trapped and unhappy, she is angrier than ever before towards me (understandably), and doesn't meet any of my needs (am feeling lots of bad feelings and struggling to resist addictive responses). I realise I made a very stupid decision to seek outside the M, but now 10 weeks after the affair ended, I still find myself stil thinking about OW a lot - wondering how she is, remembering how I felt when we were together - I'm aware this is because of all the negative feelings I have now (and craving feeing good again)... perhaps because the affair didn't have a natural ending, it will always be idealised for me (I ended it because I 'should', rather than because I wanted to - we both found it agonizingly painful to stop seeing each other, but knew it was the right thing to do)..I don't know. Am maintaining NC though and trying to do the things it says her to do. I'm really struggling here... I want to give this marriage a chance, because if it can work out, that would mean I would be happy in it right? So if it's a possibility, that would be a great thing for me, W and son. But I fell out of love with W long ago, am still finding it hard to let go of deep hurts (death by a thousand angry comments/critical remarks), let go of the OW, and yet I'm supposed to be making all the running in the relationship because I'm the one who has created such massive hurt in my W and have to 'make it up to her'.

How can you 'make the running' when you don't feel like it is honestly given love, and giving makes you feel sad, as if you're dragging yourself back into an unhappy relationship?
Will I ever get over OW? How to let go of a memory of passion/intimacy that was stronger than anything between W and I have ever had? How long might it take for this to happen?
Will I ever really love my W again/love being with her/want to be faithful to her? Find her sexy and desirable?
Any ideas or advice very very gratefully recieved.

PS - I don't really need the usual "You screwed up, you deserve everything you get" type response - I KNOW I screwed up - I KNOW I've hurt my W more than I'll ever understand. I have never cheated before in my life, and have learned from this episode that it is a disastrous move to make when you have relationship problems. I GET the concepts of withdrawal, the fog etc etc.... I'm just looking for help with where I'm at now. Hope someone can offer some insight/advice/experience.
ARGH!

1. Huge kudos to for you telling you wife....you have offered the right to make informed decisions....and though you may not believe it...that is a very noble act....

2. What exactly are your addiction problems.....
and where are you at that...are you using...what is the substance of choice...etc...

3. I found a care, kindness and level of common interest that was new to me, it was also very highly sexual (all these things were in a way W and I have never ever been).

though it may seem like these levels of emotions and connectedness to the OW existed outside of you...the truth is all of these things were the exact product of the amount of energy you invested in creating them...the good news in this is that you ARE able to create these things...and it is possible to create them with your wife....

a place to start is to really look at your actions that resulted in this connection...
I would bet dollars to donuts that while involved with the OP you

1. spent gobs of time thinking of her
2. spent energy looking forward to speaking to her
3. spent energy thinking of fun things to tell her/share with her...
4. spent energy on your appearance....your state of mind...setting a happy tone....
5. I bet you LISTENED to her....
6. fantisized about her....
7. spoke nicely to her
8. complimented her
9. admired her and told her so...

all of these things and more...were not feelings..these were actions that YOU did....
and while you were doing this these were all the things that you took away from your marriage.....

How can you 'make the running' when you don't feel like it is honestly given love, and giving makes you feel sad, as if you're dragging yourself back into an unhappy relationship?

I'm committed to trying, but am struggling hard to make moves towards a reconciliation that I'm unsure I want

this goal is wrong on your part

you need to set and state your boundaries that you are NOT committed to reconciling or returning to anything even remotely resembles the type of marriage you describe as pre-affair....

what you commit to is creating the type of marriage that you desire with her...
that you change your language completely...

that your goal is the creation of marriage that is worthy of you and her....
where you two are truly a team....with eachothers interest at heart...
where you both become a soft place for the other to land...

we argue a lot

quit argueing....
period...
look long and hard at your conflict resolution patterns and stop your participation in those that are chaotic and non-productive....

sounds like you accepted her mean behavior for a long time before the affair...sounds like you gave her permission to be mean...
well the truth is that you don't have to give permission for that...
and you don't have to accept that....
AND
you don't have to participate in that anymore...

You need to develop strong firm boundaries that each and every time the conversation takes turn in to disrespect and inane babble and attacks...that YOU stop the conversation and remove yourself from the situation...
do this without powerstruggling
do this without anger..
do it calmly
and be ready and willing to resume the conversation....

4. How did contact end..did you involve your wife in the ending and have you become accountable to her...with access to you at all times...

5. How is the tone in your home...oppressive....gloomy..
you need to take responsibility for the tone and turn it upbeat...

your childs life is at stake her....you have brought chaos into his innocent life...

Is your marriage counselor fiercely pro-marriage...

consider calling the Harleys for counsel

Throw your six month time period out the window that gives you an out that you cling to....

ARK

Thanks for your response.

2. Addiction issues... in the past, I've had dysfunctional responses to unmet needs....
'Sitting with' my emotions (i shut them off a lot) - Smoking cigarrettes and cannabis. Am still smoking cigarrettes, but not cannabis.
adventure/excitement - obsessive interests in things like computer games, sports
Sex - porn
Am resisting urges to use these things in response to how I'm feeling at the moment, and am aware of my vulnerability.

2. Yes, I did those things, but there's also an element of the OW's personality and interests here. Have previously put this kind of energy into my relationship with W and it hasn't had the same effect. But I get your point.

3. Yes - I think it's a case of 'reimagining', so perhaps will talk to W about the kind of relationship that she and I want to see if we're in the same ballgame.
Thanks for the affirmation that I can simply shut off and cease destructive conversations. I will do that. Although W tells me I am walking out on her and have to just sit there and take her anger, and I see her point here. In the previous relationship, I tried very hard to communicate to her how mean I felt her to be. She tells me I was just as mean, but I don't buy that. I am trying to be kind at the moment, in the hope that she will understand that is what I also need.

4. Contact ended by me and OW deciding to end it and tearing ourselves away, agreeing NC, and agreeing that we would not get in contact again, unless I was divorced. I made her a promise that I would try everything to make the M work, to give her assurances that whatever happened, she would not be the reason for the M breaking down. We ended it 10 weeks ago. NC (except for 1 accidental meeting 3 weeks ago), and D-Day was 2 weeks ago. Yes, am accountable to W for where I am - am trying to follow the MB rules here.

5. Tone is gloomy. When I try to be cheery, I feel that there's a bit of 'what right have you to be happy' vibes coming from W - perhaps resentment, as if she feels I've had my fun, now want it all to be ok again.

You should know, as well as I do (I work in this field) that children suffer more in high conflict families than in separated ones where strong post-separation cooperation between parents (e.g. macro analyses by Amato), so I'm not buying into the 'you're child's life is at stake. It's an overstatement). Obvioulsy he'd be better off in a happy married home, but it's not a sufficient reason for staying together - has to be about the M relationship being good, not staying together for him. Can't call the Harley's - am in the UK and don't have the money. The six months? this is the only 'deal' W and I are both prepared to accept - policy of joint agreement.

Thanks for your comments - some in particular very helpful. I will set boundaries about the tone of conversation I'm prepared to participate in. But still unsure of how to put the effort in when it feels against my instincts/will - it feels dishonest to be affectionate when I don't really feel that way, and W has commented on this.

hi bloke,

It's unrealistic to expect your feelings about things like affection to be genuine when you're still going through withdrawal from the affair. The biochemistry of affairs which creates large doses of dopamine, adrenelin and low levels of serotonin all create the kind of addiction and obsessive thinking that characterizes new relationships.

The first milestone...is 21 days...but your accidental run probably derailed that so you're probably reaching that again now. The next big milestone is about 6 weeks, then 6 months....but until you really pass that point, don't expect to feel "love" for your wife...we're just not wired that way as human beings. Full recovery generally takes one to two years....because the biochemistry of affairs fades from 18 months to two years....so anything less than that (like your 6 month figure) is not sufficient....sorry.

Time is the key issue....not affection/sex/love at this point. Spend time with your wife and the BEST way to do that in order to give your marriage a chance to replace the affair in your heart is to inject the kinds of things that make affairs so addictive! Change the scenery. Move. Do things you've NEVER done with each other before....recreationally, emotionally, spirtually. New experiences create the spikes in biochemistry that hallmark affairs....but those same things can inject mystery and excitement into marriages too. Go on a vacation. Do some things recreationally that are exhilarating or risky. Go eat some food you've never tasted before. Surprise her with spontaneous plans.

Stop focussing on the relationship and start focussing on your lives TOGETHER. They aren't the same thing. Relationship talks are exhausting....recreation isn't.

Also remember, that while much of this stuff will feel mechanical at first, the results will not feel mechanical at all!! You're in withdrawal, she's still in deep pain....of course things are discouraging and awful. Post D-day and early recovery is the most excruciating part of this whole mess!! Any of us who had to recover our marriages from infidelity have been there done that and have the Tshirt. It sucks frankly....and things get worse before they get better.

But when they do get better....and if you stick with it...they do...the opportunity is pretty damned amazing when you realize that you still have your family and a marriage that is worth fighting for. You are setting your sights too low....and I'm wondering if you aren't sabotaging things a bit too. You mentioned that you told your OW that you wouldn't see her UNLESS you were divorced. Hello. That isn't a no contact message....it's a contingency plan. "I'll give my marriage six months to fail then come back." Recalibrate your thinking and if you TRULY want your marriage to succeed....think in these terms: I am never going to see OW again...ever...whether my marriage succeeds or fails, that relationship which was based on lies and secrets is an accident waiting to happen. Even if my marriage ends in divorce, I know that I will have much healing to do before I will be ready for a new relationship that begins the way it should." That is what you need. That is what your wife needs. That's even what the OW needs. Be ethical. Be honest. Be fair. Give your marriage a full year and really close the affair door forever, or you're not being any of that.

Hello bloke,

Welcome to MB although I'm sorry it's for Infidelity.

I can sympathize with how bleak everything must seem to you right now.Afterall,your W just found out 2 weeks ago and is,I'm sure, a mess herself and you had to be the one to end what you think is a wonderful relationship with the OW.There is just no way that either one of you can be all that hopeful right now since you are both dealing with huge emotions and pain in your own ways from what happened.I also noticed your W had 3 EA's of her own.Aside from the marriage,it's obvious to me that you both have issues with communication,respect and problem solving.In any relationship,there are ways,appropriate ways to handle any problem and admittedly you have had several.

The first thing I would suggest you realize is that if you truly want a chance at saving your marriage(and I don't know if you hold marriage as sacred and dear as some of us, not clear to me yet) you should understand that you are in this for the long haul.If you are just going to bide your time until the 6 month mark passed and say "Ok I've tried" and move on,then don't waste your W's time.Be honest and sincere about trying without the OW in the picture.This OW has to be gone and permanently,not waiting in the wings for your return.You will only romanticize and fantasize about it all and I can tell you from being here for over a year and half,you have yet to see the whole picture with this OW.It's all "perfect" in your mind right now as it always is but true colors will emerge,in time.Is the OW married and does she have children too(I'm assuming not)? If so there are a lot of other people to consider,not just what you and OW want.

If you were to divorce,there are issues of child support,alimony,visitation,child's pain,division of property and assets,etc,etc.I agree with you that a child living in an abusive home is not the best choice when it comes to the option of living without huge stress and living with a stable single parent home.But don't kid yourself into thinking that your child will just be "ok".ALL children want their parents to be together and loving if it all possible.Numerous books and studies have shown how divorce affects children for their entire lifetime.I am a child of divorce(D) and I can speak from experience that it truly does.You do owe it to your child to exhaust all options before leaving.Children are the priority and we will not always advocate staying in a marriage no matter what.That is not realistic but we do suggest that you give it the time it deserves before ending it.

You know,if you truly wanted out and you just didn't give a da** anymore,you would not be here.So that should tell you something.Whomever you are with,and you did love your W and you did marry her and have a child with her,you have to work at it,be respectful and loving and caring.That was clearly missing but you both have an opportunity to make the marriage whatever you want,like ark said.You would have to do the same work even if you left for the OW because once the infatuated high wears off,and it would,you are left with all the baggage and issues you dragged from this current marriage and your current state of mind.So this is more about how to interact and communicate with a spouse.Why you made the decision to cheat on your W.Cheating is never the answer to anything.If things were so bad with your W,you should have divorced her instead of putting her through this.If your W had 3 EA's(and you have yet to talk about that if you do) then you understand some of the pain associated.

You cannot expect to feel loving/affectionate with your W right now.It's unrealistic.That would come in time as your work in your marriage and try to get passed the hurts you have both heaped on one another.You also have tried very hard to fill in many voids and painful black holes by other,what I would call,inappropriate behavior(porn,pot,cheating).This is also very much about YOU and how lost you are inside.A man who is secure and fulfilled in life doesn't need other women or porn or pot or anything else to feel happy about his life and his world.

There is a lot to cover and a lot to talk about so I hope you will stick with us.I would like to see you and your W have a loving happy marriage not just for yourselves but also so that your son and your family do not become another Divorce statistic like I am about to be.

O

P.S. Your W needs help too obviously and also has work to do.Maybe you could send her here too if you are ok with that.If not we will work with you first but you both need counseling with a PRO MARRIAGE counselor.

Hi Octobergirl and Star*fish - thank you for your comments. I have some reflections on some of the things you have said.

Yes, I do think I'm still in serious withdrawal, and it's a relief to have you affirm that feeling love/desire etc is unrealistic at this point. I wish my W would accept this, because she just tells me that 'if you don't love me, what's the point in trying'. How do I explain to her that it's normal/understandable for me not to love/desire her at the moment, yet there's still hope? She just feels this is heaping rejection on top of rejection.

RE: timescale - I understand what you're saying about needing more time for things to sort themselves out, but both W and I need to feel we are making serious progress by 6 months to keep going. Surely by this time, we will be in a position to feel that we are on the right track and that we can keep going. Surely 6 months is long enough to feel that you are getting somewhere (and perhaps commit to another 6 months) or it's just not going to happen.

RE: letting go of the OW - I think that there is an element of a contingency plan within me here - she isn't married, nor has children by the way. I am REALLY struggling to let her go, and I accept what you say about thinking in terms of never seeing again - I know this is the right thing to do, but it's so, so, so hard. Yet I'm going to be tough on myself in terms of not letting myself get away with anything other than genuinely trying to make it work - I know my conscience would not allow me to do anything less - after all, if I didn't do this, then I would never know whether or not I could really have been happy with my W. And if I could be, then - I could be happy, so I've nothing to lose. A relationship with OW would be deeply problematic, I know that - she is 14 years younger than me, and I am aware of how many problems there would be because of that alone. One of the greatest difficulties however is letting go of the sexual chemistry between us, which was explosive. I have never experienced anything like it, and certainly not ever with my wife. I always thought my wife was very pretty, but never found her particularly sexy. Because we shut down any sexual chemistry between us when we were initially dating, we never had the passionate sexual chemistry that I have just experienced with OW - in fact, I was completely unaware of that kind of passion existed before the A, so it feels like something completely new and it was incredibly powerful. It kinda showed me what I'd been missing with W - and I don't know if it's possible for us - we've never had it. Of course, all this is seriously hard to let go of. Add to that the fact that conversationally, and recreationally, OW and I were really into the same kind of things, whereas W and I more often than not turned conversations into arguments, and that she has never been prepared/able to engage in the things I like doing. And the easy going way in which OW and I thought and felt alike, the synchronicity etc (which would probably mean there would be a lot less conflict between OW and me than between W and me). So while I can really see the limitations of the A (and of course, it was conducted in isolation from the everyday stresses of life etc), I turn around and then see the (seemingly bigger) limitations of the M too. And it makes me feel sad that I'm not with someone who shares my interests/perspectives, where there is or has been a great sexual relationship, someone who is easy going and relaxed etc - having met someone like that, it almost doens't matter whether it was OW or not - it's like I've just discovered the things I love in people for the first time, and found myself in a M with someone who just isn't like that, and who I often simply don't like - and I wonder whether she and I would be better off with someone who really liked and loved them for who they are. Of course I realise there's a lot of chemicals talkign in this - How to let go? Ok - deciding I'll never see her again (makes me want to cry - I've obviously not let go yet), trying not to think about her (which I am doing, but whenever I get down, my thoughts drift to her), but what else helps? Any suggestions?

Thank you for the point about spending time together doing stuff, living life - almost every time we're together, conversation seems to turn to a heavy relationship talk, which is exhausting and very demoralising. Every day life is hard, and while I'm trying to be polite, respectful and considerate, I can tell that W doens't want to/isn't able to do that back yet. I am planning a family holiday for the summer, but feel very uninspired when it comes to things we can do together that are new and exciting during the week. I'm really into high adrenaline stuff, but W isn't really. There are hardly any things we share a passion for, and they certainly wouldn't be new things. But I take this point and will think about what we can do.

I do believe that God is in our marriage, and that gives me hope in what feels like a hopeless place. I also know that his grace is big enough to cover even those going through divorce. I'm sure that He wants us to succeed, and I'm very wililng to try, which is why I've tried to put things right since finding myself in such a mess. I hear what you're saying about our child, and the M working out being the best option - i think that's a big part of why I'm here and didn't just run off - my responsible self took over. And I agree with exhausting all options before breaking up. But I don't agree with 'staying together for the children'.

After the A was disclosed, W read a lot, and realised that she had had about 3 emotional affairs. She feels bad about these, and says it's because I was not emotionally available to her. I realise this was because I would shut down emotionally when I felt she was angry and attacking me (legacy of abuse from my childhood) - I'm working on these issues with my therapist. I did feel jealous of what was going on with these EAs, but at the time, she just said nothing was happening, they were just really good friends and that was that - I accepted that - didn't know any better, but felt pretty cast aside. One of the relationships was so strong (including in front of me) that I used to fantasise that our son was the other man's son and that they were duping me into raising him (I do a lot of the childcare), even though the dates meant this was an irrational thought. It's obvious to us now that these were pretty serious breaches in our relationship, although there's little room for discussing them now, as the big issue is my A. *sigh* SO SO SO many issues, so much dysfunction - and we had A YEAR'S pre-marriage counselling too!!!! (spent most of the time in it arguing - we never got past the chapter on conflict - we even spent one session arguing about the meaning of the first question) - we have such a different outlook/understanding of life and are very stubborn. I often feel that to avoid an argument I have to just give in, which leads to all the problems of repressing emotions etc....

Agree about how I have tried to fill holes with inappropriate stuff. Am focussing on reconnecting with God at the moment - to find my self worth in him, and also to focus on healthy stuff that can release endorphins etc - going to the gym, getting my work done, writing a journal/poetry etc.... It's very very hard to resist sinking back into the dysfunctional stuff though, and I feel very lonely at the moment - most of our friends think very poorly of me. Have had a big wake up call and am feeling very anxious about getting things right, although I am slipping up now and again. But am talking to the individual therapist about the addiction issues as well.

Thanks for the support - I really appreciate, and need it. In particular, I feel better that it's "ok" not to feel love/desire/affection for W where I'm at now, and that this is normal and understandable. I do wonder how I can communicate this to her, as she says she is hopeless unless I feel these things. She also feels I need to make all the moves, and I fear getting into a situation where I'm trying to be caring and respectful and affectionate and not getting what I need in return. This would just lead to me resenting her - I strongly feel it needs to be a joint effort. Sometimes, you know, I just feel like we're flogging a dead horse - that there just isn't/wasn't enough in it to begin with - our engagement felt like that - through all the counselling, we were just constantly trying to work through issues... back then we thought it would all be so much better when we married...and here we are again. Other times, I think God is with us, we're married, there must be a reason we're together, keep going.

And yes - you're right - where we're at now is... just... horrible. (But for me, it's a lot better than where we were at when I had ended the affair and was still hiding it)

W has gone away for a few days (leaving me with son) so it's been really helpful to be able to reflect a bit on this. I so appreciate the advice.

Hi again,

You know,I don't say this very often,in fact,I maybe have said it only a couple times before but I do have a sense of hope for you.Why? Because you are really explaining yourself well and are willing to look at and take the time to explore what is going on and maybe even be a better person because of it all.We have heard probably every single imaginable story and line there is to tell and there are those that come here to try and justify what they have done and then when they don't receive the pat on the back and support for the choices they make,they are gone.We just are not that kind of site.We are PRO marriage.We will help you in any way we can if it's a thriving marriage you want.But,you AND your W need to do this *together and she needs to understand that.This isn't about you playing slave and doing all and her nothing.Make no mistake about that and it's a good reason for her to be with a counselor or even us to tell her this.Also,you are not alone.There are many wayward spouses(WS's) here that are recovering their marriages.In time you will hear from them.

Ok.To address a few other things for now.

Like I said before,the "IN LOVE" feelings that you have with OW(actually,did you even say you DO love her?) will fade in time and I can sympathize with how wonderful it all feels.It's a high and much of what you described is what you could be saying about an addict.It feels great,explosive,never felt this way before but is it right? Is it moral? Is it going to last forever? Is it appropriate? Even drug addicts crash at some point,after their whole lives have been destroyed by their choices.The infatuation you have IS a chemical reaction in the brain(dopamine,etc).Take some time and research.It's fascinating.

Having 6 months as a time limit is ok in the sense that we usually suggest that a person wait that long to make any serious decisions about their marriage(D).However,when it comes to recovery,this is far too short because on *average,it can take upwards of 2 YEARS to feel really good about your marriage and more safe and secure and feel recovered.It's not written in stone as some recover quicker but you cannot put a time limit on something so important.It's like cancer,in a way.You are either there to support one another through it all or not.As long as it takes, hence the suggestion of axing the 6 month time frame for *recovery*.

We understand how it is to think of letting OW go.Afterall,she gives you feelings that make you feel good BUT,at what cost? These feelings are guaranteed to weaken over time and then you are left with another person to deal with.Long lasting, TRUE love is what happens after those infatuated feelings die and you are left with reality and all of lifes responsibilities.In my case,my WH was with a woman who had basically no responsibilities.She was 29,no kids,never married,lived with her parents! but did have a job.It was easy to fall into the fantasy with this woman and escape lifes reality: children,bills,home care,laundry,homework,cooking,etc,etc.He basically ran away from all that to start over with a woman who had no clue about raising a family and what that entailed and also marriage and a home.In time I would not be surprised if the OW made demands on you for marriage and children too.Has that ever crossed your mind? Starting a new family all over again with all the responsibilities with now,TWO families? It's a possibility unless this younger OW doesn't ever care to be married and have kids and I don't know any/many 30 year old woman(or younger) that doesn't have that on the horizon of her life.Could you ever truly trust one another? You cheated on your W and OW got involved with a married man.Not a good way to begin any relationship no matter how hard you try to cover up the obvious.Of course you had an explosive relationship.It was forbidden and secret.How can you compare that to a life with a W that you had been married to for so long? Of course things can get "dull" but it ALWAYS DOES.Life never sustains that kind of excitement unless you are working 24/7 at doing things just to keep that adrenaline rush going and then it becomes a game of more extreme measures to keep that high,snowballing.

Interests are something you can also work on.You should see the list on the EN(emotional Needs) workbook.You both would have to go over it and DO make time to be together in areas of your lives that please you both and also as individuals.This is a good time to remind you to read up on all the MB concepts,they are really good(i.e. POJA).

Sometimes people think it would just be easier to "start over" with someone new.If you have more than one issue going on in your marriage it can seem overwhelming.BUT,when you leave one marriage for the next,you are only trading one set of problems for the next.Unless you are acutely aware of your own shortcomings and are working to improve them then you just carry whatever you have along.Why do you think the stats for second marriages are so abysmal?

Do remember,it is very common and expected for you to feel discouraged and confused right now and all I can tell you for that is to be patient,that things will change once you start working on this and it is not easy.Recovery is the *hardest part after an A and although I have not had that personally,you can just read about it and see what a struggle it is.But it's so worth it for those who can save their marriage and family.This isn't just about you and your W,it's about trying to change the tide of divorce in this country and worldwide.One marriage at a time.Our children deserve it.They are precious.In my opinion,it's not about staying for the children as it is trying for the children.Not all marriages should be saved but one better be absloutely sure there is no chance at recovery before the decision is made to hurt their kids this way.

More later~Hang in there bloke.

O

Thanks OG - in a sense you're reminding me of much of what I had read and told myself over the past few weeks.

A particular problem I have tried to explain is that my W and I NEVER had the explosive chemistry/passion thing. When we first met, I had become a Christian (yes, I know, it went out of the window during the A - like I said, am focussing on getting right with God again), and we had sex a few times, after which I always felt guilty. She took this as rejection, and we shut down the physical reactions to each other, to the point where we hardly ever kissed (throughout our engagement or M), and sex has always been about once a month (and yet I KNOW we both have strong sex drives). I really, really DO get what you're saying about the limitations of the A, and I know that I cannot see that as a viable relationship, but when people say "Think back to the great times with your W", I feel empty. I do not want to be thinking in terms of a choice between my M or being with OW, but in terms of whether or not I should be married to my W, period - as I mentioned before, I had got to a point of despairing about my M 8 months before the affair started, and had told my W twice that I felt so down I wanted to leave. She didn't take me seriously then, but obviously she does now. In many, many ways, our only hope lies in "starting over" with each other, but of course, there are so many deep hurts between us now, that's just not possible. We can only go from here. I feel this makes it so much harder for me to let go, but I will persevere. Thanks for the time you've taken to think about me.

Just wanted to point out what I'm seeing in your posts bloke.

You are in withdrawl, it's depressing, while I've never experienced it, I have read enough and am currently living with my FWH and know good and well what it looks like.

My FWH is much like you, doesn't know if he'll *ever* get to the point where he can feel like he's in love with me again....I know differently, I know that those feelings can be rekindled, and that the love that we have is worthy of saving.

So, do what has been suggested.....spend TIME with your wife, without expectations that your feelings will magically come back, just be together doing things that are fun. (I think the magic number is like 15 hours a week of alone time with your spouse...not all 15 at once, of course).

I will tell you right now that you need to write a NC letter to the OW, and make it that you NEVER want to see her again, in no uncertain terms. Whether you know it or not, you have her to *fall back on* and that is going to make your recovery that much harder (If not completely impossible). When you *accidentally* saw her, you should have avoided her like the plague, not discussed how you still love her, etc. (I'm not pointing fingers, just want to give you a tip for the next time you may accidentally see her). You need to write a letter....post it here for us to go over, and then show your wife and possibly even have her mail it. (The NC letter should include how your relationship with her caused your wife and family a great deal of pain, and that you are sorry for that).

No one is suggesting that you stay in an unhappy marriage no matter what, please don't think we are. We are suggesting that you can have a marriage that is wonderful and makes you very happy, but it will be a lot of hard work.

I doubt that anyone here will tell you that you are getting what you deserve, I'm sure that like me, they are impressed that you decided to end your affair, tell your wife, and work on your marriage on your own. It is very admirable.

Good luck hon,

-Caren

Oh - re; love for OW - I certainly felt strong feelings of love for her, but love is an easily thrown word - it covers many things. I felt lots of Eros love for her, and Phileo, Storge.. don't know about Agape, as this is only visible when all other forms of love dissapear, it is tested and is revealed as present or not. With my wife, there's a thread of agape (that's holding us together), and at the moment, that's about it. I've researched the chemistry - you're right - it's fascinating - it kickstarts relationships and opens up huge intimacy - and that's why it seems so hard with my W now, because we never had that initial burst of passion and intimacy.

Thanks also for your reply Caren.

Bloke,

The marriage you had is dead.So trying to look back on what was is futile.You do have to start over in the sense that you have to learn new and better ways of communicating and also how to thrive in your marriage.You both also have to come to an understanding about sexual needs and how to have a healthy exciting sex life.That also comes with work,education and support.It can hapen and what always makes me feel hopeful is that the work itself can be so rewarding if you are both open to trying.Opportunity is a gift.

I know you feel empty.It's expected ok? You and your W have been through one of life's worst traumas.You did have the "benefit" of having some good feelings out of it though but I also understand that the guilt and other emotions can be just as hurtful to you.I do not know what it is like to be a WS so I can only truly understand from a BS POV.Feeling empty and in despair is an inner turmoil bloke.It has nothing to do with other people really.If you are fulfilled in your life and in yourself,you do not have to depend on other's and things to make your life meaningful.You are just as comfortable being alone as you are with the company of other's.I speak from experience here.

Life's experiences are icing on the cake.But feeling confident,having self worth and self esteem,*feeling fully as an individual,no one can give to you.When you depend on other's they can fail you.Does this make sense?

Sometimes what is needed is just one person to change in the ways they need for themselves that can encourage other's to be better too because the mantra here is" You cannot change other's,only yourself".

You are right to decide if you should be staying in the marriage or not but it has to be just that,no OW waiting or possibility which is why we ALWAYS tell a WS that it has to end,and permanently.A NC letter is critical.No more chance meetings,nothing,if this is going to work.This is non-negotiable.

Believe me when I say,all things are possible.You may not see that right now and how could you.You are in withdrawal and you and your W are in pain.But you can recover.Read over on the recovery board and see how things work.

Weekends here are typically slower than mid-week so do stick around.I am sure the other regulars will be here more on Monday if not sooner.I have a few people that I will want to talk with you,some that place God's promise on this in great detail since you want to get right with God again.So many great minds here.Just be patient,OK? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

O

Bloke,

Welcome to MB’ers, although I’m sorry you need to be here. I have appreciation for the strength you have shown to end your A; tell your W and share your story here on these boards… I know it takes courage and commitment. You’ve said you know the concepts of withdrawal, but in addition, I please want you to also read THIS THREAD on withdrawal. There is information and suggestions on that thread you might find very helpful and insightful.

Good luck and God bless,
Suzet

You're in a good place here, Bloke.:)

But you still seem at a loss about just what it is that's worth saving. Talk to some of these folks about the intrinsic value of a long-term marriage. Get in their heads in regards to what's so good about it, and why the buzz of short-term affair doesn't really 'hold a candle'.

There's something REALLY good to be said of a partnership, where both partners are loved and valued. It's like being HOME.:) It's comfort, like you've NEVER imagined. You can count on it.....every day.:)

You can't see the light at the end of the tunnel yet. Maybe you don't believe that there's something special... something irreplacable, to be had. (????)

Hi LadyJane
Correct - that's where I'm at. I am at a loss as to whether our relationship is worth saving. As we've talked since d-day, the problems in it have become more and more manifest to us. I agree with you that a long term relationship has immense value, but the key thing you said was that is was a place where both partners are loved and valued. I'm not sure that our marriage has really been that. I was talking to my IC yesterday, and one of the things we discussed was the extent to which I had missed the opportunity to discover what I really wanted out of life, relationships etc when I was a teenager - I was being abused for the first half of my teenage years. As the shock of my own actions has caused me to reevaluate myself and my life, it has become increasingly clear to me that I never had the opportunity to nurture my dreams, think carefully about the kind of partner I wanted etc. I look at my job, my marriage and my life, and see many of my choices as survival choices - things I did because I thought I should, rather than because I really wanted to. I'm not sure if this makes sense, but anyway, the marriage I had was NOT pleasant, despite my W being a perfectly decent person, who certainly does not deserve any of the pain I have inflicted on her.

I certainly am in a place where I can't see light - I am operating on faith - the belief that something unseen might come about. But I worry that I am wasting my W's time. On the other hand, I tell myself that if you don't try, you'll never know.

In my IC, it's become clear that I need to get far more in touch with myself, my own heart and emotions, and that for many years, I have made decisions based on what I thought I should be doing, rather than what I wanted to do. It's a survival mechanism. But when you look back to your marriage and see the huge role that 'should' plays, it's worrying. In a church, when you start seeing someone, you get the marriage conversations very quickly, and I did feel tat it was something I felt I should do (and I might add that desperately needing some security in my life after years of turmoil may have played in going along with this too).

I am very torn and really don't know what to to. Without the memories of feeling deeply in love with my W to fall back on, I find it so hard to imagine that in the future. The anger and resentment between us seems insurmountable, and the lack of 'spark' between us... oh I don't know.

Maybe I'm just really down at the moment. Perhaps it's just a bad day. But the only positive part of me is my rational self, which tells me that it *could* be good, that I *should* try. When I check out my feelings, my gut tells me that despite my W being an intelligent, pretty, talented woman, the combination of the two of us just might be a bit of a mistake.

But I *get* everything that's been said to me, I understand the need to get over the OW, through withdrawal, and act lovingly towards my W, but when i do, I feel depressed, as if I'm climbing back in the cage and locking the key.

Can you manufacture love with anyone just by doing the right thing, or do you actually need to have a special spark and attraction between you in the first place? Was that there for us and was it just killed off by us shutting down the chemistry between us in our early dating? Is it possible to get beyond the deep hurts both of us feel? Would it be better to set each other free to start again? Will we ever get to a place where we 'just know' the right thing to do? Am I wasting my time trying to make the marriage work when I don't feel like it? Can she ever meet my emotional needs? Can I meet hers? AAARCH - these and other questions swirl around my head.

If I KNEW I loved her and felt desperately sorry for what I did, then it would be so much easier to throw myself into rebuilding our relationship - everything you need is here - all the information, wisdom, support and advice in the world. Sure it'd be hard, but you'd know it is possible, you'd know it could work out, if only you keep going and do the right things. But I don't feel like that - my head tells me i SHOULD try, I SHOULD make the marriage work, because we're married, we have a child, we have a history. But my heart and gut tell me that I've been going along with this marriage ignoring my self, my emotions and my nature, just going along with it because I SHOULD.

All that is special, irreplaceable is based on our history, wedding, child, but what my W wants to know is whether there is anything special, irreplaceable about HER that causes me to want to make it work. Perhaps there is, and it's just hidden under the hurt I feel from the last 10 years - I don't know. Then again, perhaps I just hooked onto the first stable woman I met and, without really knowing for myself what kind of person I wanted to be with, what kind of life I really wanted, I went into marriage because it seemed to be what I SHOULD do. Who knows....

I'm sure I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel yet, but I am starting to really listen to my feelings, and, given time, will know what to do.

So W is going to a music festival next weekend - she doesn't want me to go. Among the people going is one of the guys she had an EA with a few years back (we only just realised that it was an EA). He is a professional masseur. I had a look at her phone today and found texts between them. Him... 'something to make you feel good... flowers and chocolate'? Her: A massage, some recreational drugs and a sunset would be nice, I'm off chocolate". Asked her about it and she said it didn't mean anything.

She is in a lot of pain and I don't know what to do. I feel unable to offer her genuine affection and love, but know she's hurting. She thinks I'm just thinking about myself all the time, but I'm not really. Spent today with my thoughts drifting to OW a lot, with the doubts about our marriage swirling around my head, as per the above post.

(1) You don't know the OW, you don't have a clue what she is really like. You and OW had your A in a little isolated world that was 99.9% fantasy. Basically, you're "love" for OW is like the love a 5 year old has for Mickey Mouse.
(2) You sound like, unfortunately, someone in a plain vanilla, dime-a-dozen mid-life crisis. There isn't a whole lot special or unique about your situation. You made some decisions which you now regret. Had you made a different set of decisions, you would regret those now, too. That is the nature of a mid-life crisis--you doubt your decisions and wish your were somewhere else. The problem, of course, is "no matter where you go, there you are."
(3) First, forget what you and your W had before. You have to start building a new relationship with her from here, starting now.
(4) If you were unhappy in the M, it wasn't your W's fault. It was your fault--and not because you picked the wrong W. You failed to communicate with her. You failed to tell her what you wanted. It wouldn't matter who you married, you will *still* be in the same place emotionally that your are now. Why? Because the *problem* is with you, not her. You are in IC (which is good, because you need it).
(5) You are blaming your W for your unhappiness. Nope, it is your fault. The only one who can make you happy is you.

Further, if you went off with OW, it is likely that you will be right back where you are now in a couple of years. Why? Because the problem is with *YOU*. OW can't fix you; W can't fix you; your counselor can't fix you--only you can fix you. (And, the problem you have is (1) you can't identify your legitimate needs and (2) you have diffiuculty communicating your needs...)

Here is some wisdom: The love that you can have with your W is about 1000 better than anything you have had before. But, you can't get there by f*cking around with other women. You have to invest your time and energy into this M.

Q: Will I ever get over OW?
A: Yes.
Q: How to let go of a memory of passion/intimacy that was stronger than anything between W and I have ever had?
A: All you have to do is realize that you were in love with a fantasy. E.g., read that last statement. Doesn't it sound like something from a "B" movie or a daytime soap opera? Just like "B" movies and daytime soap operas, it is a "pretend".
Q: Will I ever really love my W again/love being with her/want to be faithful to her?
A: Sure, but you aren't going to get there by obsessing over OW.
Q: Find her sexy and desirable?
A: Yes. If your W loves you and is willing to meet your legitimate ENs, you can have a sex life that is incredible. You can only get there if you and she can honestly and openly communicate.

Have you noticed that the more stress you feel regarding the marriage, the more compulsive the thoughts of OW become? The more you struggle....the greater the obsession?

You've had alot of great feedback here. The most recent of which is the 'straight-shooting' of Jimmy Mac. Read it again. And this time, for the sake of experiment, what if you accepted it's most valid points as truth?...truth that you just can't fully visualize yet, but factual nontheless? What if you looked at it again with new eyes and said to yourself..."hmmm, maybe I am going through a midlife crisis?", "maybe I am escaping from my midlife doubts into the fantasy of another lifestyle?" And then really explored each of those ideas in turn for a few minutes.

You can always reject the parts that don't apply to you later. Just try them on for now, and see what fits. (????)

In order to justify and rationalize the affair behavior, (and the continued desire to return to the affair), you've had to cast almost EVERYTHING that was once a known truth in your life into doubt. That's ALOT of doubt when you stop to think about it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Every decision that's led you to where you are today becomes suspect. It's no wonder that you're in such a muddle. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

A pervading sense of doubt in the effectiveness of our past decisions is the very corner-stone of midlife crisis. Your doubts have been magnified by the affair behavior as well, to the point of leaving NOTHING untouched. It's like a storm of Doubt. Everything is consumed in it's wake.

Discarding the OW fantasy, is Step #1 in regaining perspective. As long as you can take your stress and put it into the fantasy, you don't have to really deal with it. You don't have to identify the true causes.

It's an escapist tactic. Once you recognize it for what it is, it's defeatable. Once the illusion is exposed, everything else will EVENTUALLY regain clarity. All the other problems are surmountable. But you must identify and work through them one by one. You can't do that when you're avoiding them by withdrawing into the fantasy.

So, what if for just a few minutes, you were to accept as TRUTH that you took this 22-year old girl, who was nice to you and was sexual with you, and invented a fantasy-girl of her? What if you really had looked at her through the rose-colored glasses of pure escapism? (Believe me, EVERYONE who's ever lived through a midlife crisis has had thoughts of escape. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )

What then? Wouldn't it be easier to let the obsession go...if you knew in your heart that you were in fact the creator of it?

Hell yeah - it's entirely obvious - the more stress I feel, the more thoughts turn to a range of addictive responses, including thoughts of the OW. Am practising meditation, physical excersise and getting on with my work as counter responses.


Way ahead of you both, I'm afraid - this was precisely the nature of my discussion in IC the other day. I'm aware of re-evaluating a lot of things, and one thing that has become clear is my tendency to suppress my own needs and emotions, retreat into my mind and navigate my way through life using my rational brain and ethical compass (hard to believe, but I have a masters degree in theological ethics). Big part of the work I need to do is connect with myself emotionally and integrate this into the way I lead my life. Am on the case - don't worry.


There is an element of truth in this, as it relates to ongoing feelings about the affair, but doesn't explain the despair I felt about the M (which I articulated to W 8 and 5 months before the affair) - that was unaffected by any affair, just by being miserable about being in the relationship. Of course I understand this is my responsibility as much as anyones, but it's not entirely affair justifying thinking.



hrm - not everything - a lot of reevaluation, but my faith is intact, I've still got my job (and value it - I'm a charity director). So some things are ok. The main problem is my reationship with my W. Most other things are ok.


Thanks - good point - was thinking about this this morning, and just appreciating the fantasy element in the A. Am gradually shedding attachment to the A, but then am left staring at the M, which is now a trainwreck. It's 10 times worse than the situation it was in when I was in despair about it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


That's my current focus - and it's damned hard - my IC described me a being torn apart between my emotions (with OW) and my ethics (with W) - as you said, someone was nice to me and sexual with me - an oasis in a desert.

Thanks for your advice - the feedback and advice here is very helpful, and I appreciate it.

Been doing more thinking, and lots of reading on here.

I feel my situation is quite uncommon - perhaps I'm right, or wrong - I don't know, but I'm struggling to find any other threads I can really relate to <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Seems a lot of WS A's are discovered - lots of BS's on here trying to handle the situation using Plan A - i.e. being a really attractive spouse, not using LBs etc. If NC is established, this continues until withdrawal is over and then recovery can begin....

My situation is... I kinda 'woke up' to the mess i was in during the A, ended it (while in the middle of falling for OW), then revealed it to W. Ours has not been a great marriage - sex once a monthish, lots of LBs, lots of infidelity (her - 3 ER's, me - porn, 1 PA). I have spoken to her about the main LB's from her, especially lots of angry outbursts and demands. Mine being dishonesty and lack of emotional openness. Now, I'm in big withdrawal at the moment - my body is wracked with pain most days, struggling hard to let go of the feelings of the A. I exposed the A to friends and family, to be accountable for our M problems (which had become quite common knowledge, and for which I had done a lot of blaming W, so I felt people should know the truth). I've put some support in place for myself - pastor, IC, but don't really have many friends left at the moment.

W is in big big pain as I'm sure you can imagine. She is now extremely angry, and says she doesn't feel she's 'allowed' to express this because I have told her so often how much her anger hurts me. So her anger is suppressed and comes out in everything she says to me. It's like she's in a constantly suppressed rage. I've told her unequivically that she has every right to express anything and everything to me. She's demandinf lots from me about transparency, accountabillity, affection etc etc. She's basically saying that its down to me to make all the moves, prove I want her etc etc. Point is, I don't know if I do - I certainly don't want what we had - and have no idea if we can have something good together.

While, in my mind, I know she's perfectly entitled to demand these things, I'm just finding myself so unattracted to her - it's all the same old crap again, only worse. Now I know she's got every right to be raging at me, demand certain behaviours etc etc, but man, it's just driving me away from her. Every conversation between us is a heavy relationship talk. I try to be polite, ask her how things are, take an interest in her day, her work, etc, cook for her, and all I'm getting back is more anger, more demands etc. So I often withdraw, feel like crap, resent her. She tells me she has no idea how to handle me, so I sent her an article on handling a withdrawing spouse, and it sent her mad, because it was all about her being caring towards me - she tells me I'm supposed to make all the running and that sending her that was selfish (I'm permanently selfish and always have been, apparently). She resents the fact that I'm getting support and that people are affirming me for ending the A and confessing - I think she feels I should be suffering more. I 'only do something if you get something out of it' - erm, am I allowed to want to be in a R that I get something from?

I have zero interest in sex with her (again). Hugs feel awkward, and I feel 'I don't trust you' when we do. I find myself feeling really hostile towards her, but am trying to be as calm, polite etc as I can. I don't feel I have any right to ask for anything for myself, but she thinks I'm thinking of nothing but myself. I almost wish I was still in the A and she was plan A'ing. She tells me all I think about is myself and that I should be thinking about her first, but frankly, I just don't trust her (to meet my EN?), so it's like "if I do that, I'll become your slave". Over a year ago (months before my A), I remember quite clearly thinking "there is, simply, nothing in this R for me" (the Taker talking?), and I'm yet to feel or experience much that counters this, and yet why on earth would I? She's in agony and ragingly angry. I'm in withdrawal, but then it's all my fault, so I should fix it. I guess a big problem is not being in a place where I KNOW I want to - I'm stil ambivalent about making it work, and this is a problem. And it's not even about the OW - it's a simple question of being in this M or splitting up. W told me last night the A would permanently damage our R - if it will always be worse than it was before, why should we carry on? On the other hand, I KNOW miracles happen, but I just think I need one, and fast.

Next week she's off to a festival with the OM in one of her ER's. They've texted about taking drugs and him giving her a massage. I wonder if anything is going to happen. I wonder how I might feel if they do...

I just don't know what to do with all this frickin pain. If I mention it, it's "you're just thinking about yourself again". What am I doing to try to make it better? Lots of listening to her, cooking, cleaning, earning, being transparent, trying to offer affection... but MAN it's hard - it's all I can do to not just run away <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I know, I know, that she's the one hurting the most - I really do understand this - promise. THe reason I'm talking here is that it feels like the only place I can express the way I'm feeling day to day, and my confusion, without being accused of being the same old selfish git I've always been. Guess for many people here it just helps to post stuff.

hhhhhhheyelp