I am not quite sure where I left off in the story of this mess. WH did quit his job last weekend. I can not bring myself to tell y'all exactly how far I traveled to pick him up. This whole A business has turned me from a somewhat wacky person into a complete neurotic mess !!! I have taken the stand early on to do whatever it was going to take to save my marriage and WH has certainly taken advantage of that. But, he is home now. Good news and bad news about that.

I left on Monday to go and get him and his stuff. I get there on Tuesday and of course, he was very happy to see me. I am almost positive cell phone contact between the two went on right up until I got there.

First day on the road back, everything going excellent. He and I both were happy as clams. Almost honeymoon like. Well, geesh, I just drove alot of miles to pick him up from quiting his job. And, I am taking him back home - to be close to OW ?? who knows, maybe yes, maybe no. But, I HAD to do it. I could not control myself.

Day two on the road, everything still going great. Then -- he says something about my truck. I do not have a truck !! She does !! He tried to backstep and the fight was on. I was screaming my head off. I had just driven all that ways to get him and now this. Granted he will not admit to anything, so he can not say it is over.
We fought for hours. I tried every trick in the book to get him to admit an affair. Meanwhile, he is drinking. (I am driving) It is getting way too uncomfortable for him I am sure.

After hours of screaming and denying, he finally says - ok, you want me to lie ? Ok, I did have an affair, it was a mistake, I am sorry and I have broken it off !!!
Well, finally - did he admit it and get it off his chest ? He kept telling me that he was lying, but that was what I wanted to hear and so he said it, but it was a lie. I have "known" of this for almost a year.

When he got home, he wanted the phone number of who he was "supposedly" talking to on his cell. Quite drunk, he called her, with me listening on the other phone (his idea) but he only got her answering mach. and left a mess for her to call him. She has not. He called her three times leaving loud, slurry messages. The last one he told her he missed her and to call him. He told me he was baiting her. This made me very uncomfortable. No word back from her that I am aware of.

What is y'all take on all of this ? He is home now and things "seem" to be good. But I do not trust him to have ended it as he kinda admitted to. Of course, he will not talk about it anymore.

Thank so much, as usual carnation

Just stop it, carnation. You have made yourself crazy by accommodating his affair. Just stop it. Stop babysitting him and stop fighting with him.

You tell him that if he wants to work on saving your marriage, then he has to:

1. send the OW a no contact letter [we have samples] and agree to never ever contact her again - NO PHONE CALLS

2. open up his life to you, ie: passwords, etc, account for all his time, change his cell phone #

3. be open and honest about his affair and tell you all the details - no more secrets to which you are not privy

4. tell you what he plans on doing to restore your marriage

Stop fighting with him. NOW. It is up to him to repair this marriage and end this affair. But yo are making matters worse by fighting with him.

Put the ball back in his court. If he can agree to do the above and can demonstrate it via ACTION, then you are open to continuing the marriage, if not will have to consider your options. [if he doesn't do those things, you need to go to plan b, carnation, but don't tell him that]

((((((((((((((((((Carnation))))))))))))))))))))


I dunno if that was his confession, if it was, it was lame.

I'm sorry you're going through all of this, and I have to agree with Mel on what your next step is.

I know, first hand, how easy it is to get out of control in these situations, how hard it is to take the high road.

-Caren

It wasn't a confession. He was drunk and he will claim you drove him to it. Let him know that an old lady called and that his messages scared her knickers off of her. LOL!!! Ask him what # did he dial anyway?

Yea, the OW will go into hiding and the drunk will get sober, then what?

Then the A games start all over again.

Carnation, when he started that mess, you should have pulled off the road and let him out. What I did that once about 30 miles from our home (after an MC visit durng the heyday of the A) was get out of the car myself. I decided I no longer wanted t/b in the same vehicle as the WS. 2 Sherrif's deputies showed up because a business owner called them when they saw me walking up the road and the WS gunning the car up and down the road, then the WS jumped out and started walking and I got in the car. Oh it was a mess. The thing that kept playing in my head was what would happen to our son. Both his parents were out of it and that made me angry. I was determined to NOT let that happen again.

The officers were quite understanding. In the end we drove home together and when we got back, I held my tongue until I could enact plan B and kicked him out that night.

Looking back, it is was a nightmare. But we survived. Plan B saved me then and now.

L.

Do I wait until something else happens or do I try to rock this shaky boat and get some more truth ? I am sure it will involve more screaming, at least on his part.

Thanks so much for the replies.

Carnation

carnation, go tell him what I told you. Stop asking him if he had an affair. You know he had an affair. Tell him you know he did and that you are willing to work on this marriage if he is willing to do the things on my list.

If he screams, then that is your answer. Just be sure that YOU don't scream. But you cannot afford the luxury of sweeping everything under the carpet anymore. Be firm and calm, but confront him now. Don't allow him to pretend this away.

Exactly what 'truth' are you looking for?

You KNOW he's involved with this woman.

You KNOW he's lying to you about it.

You KNOW he will continue to lie to you about it with screaming as an o so wonderful added benefit.

The *real* question is, Carnation, whatcha going to do about it?

Grrr... I hate when I see fellow BS give all the power and decisions to the WS!

Mojo, it's hard not to give your power away, you really want to believe your WS....ya know? This is an awful situation, and it takes you a minute to stop wallowing in your own pain, and be proactive.

Tell him what Mel said Carnation, no more asking him, you know he's just going to lie to you. Tell him you know, and there's really no point in denying it, then give him his options.

((((((((((((((((((Carnation))))))))))))))))

-Caren

carnation, his screaming is just a girly ploy to get you to SHUT UP. Don't fall for it. Be firm in your resolve and don't back down.

Caren- its not really wanting to believe the WS that allows us to give our power away. Its fear they won't do what we hope they will do. So many of us just tread water because they can't bear NOT having their WS with them.

I know my personal recovery and marital recovery didnt begin until after I realized I'd be just fine without him. And he realized it, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yep Mojo...you are correct <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I was just saying that it's hard to talk yourself out of the pity party you're having, and into being proactive.

Mel-- LMAO @ carnation, his screaming is just a girly ploy to get you to SHUT UP. Don't fall for it. Be firm in your resolve and don't back down. I laughed when you said *girly*.

-Caren

*****SIGH*******

Sadly, you probably deep down think that you "need to do this to save your marriage". You are NOT doing anything here but being a doormat and enabling and fueling your WH's affair. This is so friggin crazy. If it was not so completely and utterly sad, it would be funny.

You said that you were gonna do whatever it took to save your marriage and that you WH was taking advantage of it. You should have probably repharsed what you said as "I will do whatever it takes to stay married to my WH" and he likes it that way.

This is your life and YOU are the one who will have to deal with the consequences from the inevitable fall out from all of this. If this is what you want, GO GET IT ! There is not a thing that I know I can say to stop you.

Cheers,

LM

Yikes, y'all are right, I am sure. I suppose y'all have realized that I have huge rejection and abandonment issues. I was adopted as a baby and was not exactly the "chosen" one. This I know. I know I have deep issues about this stuff, everyone who knows me knows this. Y'all certainly have figured it out.

Knowing the problem doesn't do me much good towards solving it. Oddly enough, financially I have done a very good job pretty much on my own during this "marriage". I know I can live without him, it is just these friggin' issues that get in the way. I panic big time about losing him. Losing what - I do not know.

So here I am, having made my financial situation a huge mess. He had me quit my long standing job to join him on the truck. OW got her panties in a wad, and for what real reason, I do not know - he quit his job. Good grief.
Have I just traded problems for myself ?? Is she still around ?? I have recently (I think) found out her cell number. But, she is not taking calls at the present time. Since my WH got home and made his lovely calls to her home. I was hoping that she had blocked our numbers, but I have called it from other phones. ????

I welcome and appreciate all advice. (and 2 x 4's) thanks again.

Car

Carnation- I, too, have huge abandonment issues. I completely understand that panic, the anxiety, and not trusting yourself enough to make the 'right' decision. I allowed a lot of crap to happen in my marriage- from both my husband and me- because it was easier for me to hide and just take it. I finally had a counselor tell me I was in 'victim mode.' Im embarrassed to this day that I actually MISUNDERSTOOD what he was trying to tell me- I really thought he saw how everyone was against me and how I wasn't in control of anything. It was two years later and me coming out of my own fog (fear and depression, not infidelity) that I realized what he meant. I *allowed* myself to be placed in self sabotaging situations.

You quit your job to follow your husband in his truck. I quit my university education to follow my husband, dragging our two kids along for the ride-- we moved four times across three states in a year and a half. I'm still paying off debts from that time. I didn't have the confidence in myself to say no, when my very frustrated husband, newly out of the Marines, couldn't get it together. I know now that if I had put my foot down at the first sign of his selfishness, I would have my Bachelor's degree in my hand today. After 9/11, he was able to re-enlist, and within a year I found out about everything he'd been up to in addition to the other 'relationships' he'd been fostering before then. At first I blamed him for not having an education, no job, no car of my own. Now I know better. I CHOSE to follow him and then I CHOSE to act in a manner that allowed him to justify what he had done (having the affairs). I was so afraid to stand up for myself that he did not fear losing me at all. He felt decisions affecting the marriage were his to make because I relinquished my rights to my own decisions by refusing to make any.

I think I get so frustrated on the boards here because I see what is coming, I relive what I did to myself, and I just want to jump in and stop the pain. I was blessed in one way, I had a husband who did care what happened to me, he just had to grow up. We both did.

Like you and your husband, my husband and I had good times in between all the sanity. To him, I was his loyal best friend. Mine didn't yell or scream at me though, so I admit, I did not have to deal with that. He didnt blame me or try to pretend nothing was going on once he was caught. Guess that's another 'blessing.'

The way you are able to enjoy each other's company is a very, very positive thing.

You need to prepare yourself for a full on confrontation. Melody is right- his freaking out has always worked for him, so he's doing it to scare you back 'in your place.' Its time to show your hand, Carnation. Its not like you're bluffing.

So, first off, you need to have a plan in place. What are you going to do when or if he 1)continues to gaslight you, 2) becomes obnoxious and bellows at you, and 3) goes on the attack on you? Is there a place you can take yourself and some clothes? Are you going to kick him out? What are you going to do if, when you hold your ground and refuse to buckle, he confesses to it? Have you outlined your boundaries (by writing a list) and are you prepared to enforce them?

Can you get your job back? Do you have one now? Have you been checked for STD's?

Please, please stop focusing on the OW-- you need to focus on YOU and what YOU are doing. Caren used the right word-- proactive. I wasted 3 freaking years being a shrinking violet because I thought I needed my husband to survive (Im not talking financially). I do not want you to think of yourself as a failure because of what he's doing. I made that mistake and it made me waste so much precious time!


Focus, Carnation. What is your plan? What are your priorities? What can YOU do to place yourself on better ground so that you CAN face this. Put the phone bills, the OW, the craziness aside and think really hard. Formulate action. Prepare yourself. Then take a big breath and believe you can do it!

carnation,

I know that we have talked before, but I don't remember your whole story. What kind of evidence do you have? Is it you or is it that your evidence is only "convincing" enuf for you? Is he that convincing when he denies? OR is it you? I am not being a smart-aleck, I really wonder. As in my case, my H is VERY convincing and altho I "know" something was up, it would never hold up in court (so to speak, not to say it would/should go there). So sometimes I try to believe him, other times, I just CANNOT! Sometimes I believe me, other times I am not so sure.

Remind me..it would help and maybe we all could understand better.

I am in a better place tho, now. MUCH stronger since we separated. The 1st week I was mad more than anything. The 2nd week was the hardest. It has been 6 weeks and no matter what happens now, I think that he does realize that I don't "NEED" him. It is a very enlightening and rewarding thing, from my perspective.

jls

MoJo - Thanks so much for the heartfelt reply. It means alot to me. Yes, my WH really does treat me lovingly most of the time. It is just (just ???) his behavior when OW is involved. If he was bad more often than not, I really do not think I would be in this mess. I do see the good outweighing the bad. But, boy the bad can get real bad. I mean heartache bad. He probably thinks he treats me so good because - hey he gave up a 20 yr younger woman to stay with me. In his own mind, other than his "lying" confession, he does not admit to this. I do believe that at least for the time being, it is over. A huge clue is SF has increased a zillion times. For the last year or so, he has not been interested in me at all. He had her. But, he has changed his attitude towards this tremendously. A big clue to me.

A plan ?? Yes, that would be a good start. I am just so exhausted from the whole bit lately, no plan here. I guess I am still in Plan A mode and it seems to work good for me. It is so very hard for me to bring up the OW or A when we are getting along quite nicely.

I suppose a plan would be if I suspect that he is talking to her or seeing her, Plan B would immediately go into effect. I really, really can't go through any more of it.

He is going to talk to some trucking companies on Monday. He wants me to go back out with him once he gets back on a truck. While I do like being with him as such, I need a break from it. I think he wants me with him so he is not tempted to call her. Things were absolutely great with us for the 7 weeks I was with him. Then I stay home and all hell broke lose. Ending up with him quitting to be with me. When I think the initial reason was to be with her, but my coming to get him changed his mind. Temporarily, who knows. But, I can not and will not tolerate any more contact between them. I don't know if he knows this, if you know this or if I can really do it. But, I do know, I have done all I can do to stop the A and can not go back to dealing with it anymore. I say this now..... hopefully I can proceed wisely. (would be a first)

Thanks so very much for your kind words and wisdom with my situation.

Sincerely, Carnation

carnation, things are not "great" at all between you. You are just pretending they are great so you avoid talking about the elephant sitting in the middle of the room. You are both just playing a conflict avoidance game that solves nothing.

Nothing will be solved until you discuss this openly and honestly. You won't determine WHY he had the affair or ever fix the problem that led to the affair in the first place. So...the affair will likely continue or a new one will start because the conditions are all still there that led to the first one.

Y'all are just playing a game, carnation.

And he needs to find a new line of work if this one is detrimental to your marriage. That is ridiculous that you would have to go to work with your H in order to stop him frm being a HO. That does nothing to stop the real problem.

You are just playing pretend, carnation, and if you don't step up to the plate and address this situation, it WILL come addressing you with the next affair.

Carnation, you said:

THIS is a lie.
And I'm calling you on it.
You're lying when you say this.

What do you say to that?

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

PS ... the most damaging lies in our lives are the lies we tell ourselves.

"I could not control myself" - of course, it is a lie, so to speak. I am an adult human being and I have control of everything that I do and say. I know this, you know this.
BUT, at the time, I was in the middle of a panic attack and was doing everything that was within my power to make MY situation more tolerable for me. Given the circumstances surrounding this ongoing situation, I thought that that would be the best thing for me to do at that very second when I said I would come and get him.

I am totally guessing here, but I would assume that the majority of the people here on this board and those who have gone through the extremely painful heartache of an affair - would do just about ANYTHING to stop the pain !!!
That is what I did/do regarding my WH.

Yes, I am weaker than most in this area. I have said that I have rejection issues dating from early childhood. Not making excuses here, but that is who I am. If I solve my problems at home, with the results that I want/need - isn't that what we all are tying to do here ??? Everyone's situation/marriage/WS,etc. is different. Everyone here is different. True, there are alot of factors in these affairs that are exactly the same every time. And for those situations, the answers may seem the same every time. May seem the same, but can be tweaked for each individual. I doubt if there are blanket solutions to all the thousands of affairs out there. Everyone, everything can not be the exact same. Just can't be.

Perhaps I have done things differently than what you or other's would have done. And, visa-versa. I would not have reacted as some of y'all have done. Human nature. I do what is comfortable for me and what I think will give me the result that I want. The more you read - the more you learn. Take what you want, store the rest.

I so appreciate and welcome all comments and advice. Had I not discovered this board months ago, I am sure things would not have turned out (so far) as they have. I was into LB big time and having a solid Plan A turned my marriage around. Granted, I don't know what WH is going to do in the future, he probably doesn't either. Come on, who can predict the future ?? But, I am trying my very best to put my marriage on solid ground, and that is all that I can really do. My best. I can't control anyone else ---- heck, I can't even control myself obviously !!!

I appreciate your interest and concern.

Carnation

I am concerned

whenever anyone

sends him/her self

a message of powerlessness

and helplessness

over his/her own self

please

do not tell yourself

the lie

that you cannot control yourself

you can

it is not necessarily easy

the pain can be frightening

but you know

human beings are capable of reaching beyond themselves

and achieving heights of strength and courage they never knew they were capable of

I cannot tell you how many times an adulteror has told this board...

"I couldn't control myself."

It's not true for the adulteror ... and it's not true for the betrayed either.

We expect the WS to control his/her self when we have the boundary of NC.

We need to assume the responsibility to control ourselves as BS as well.

You made a choice Carnation. Just own the fact that you decided to go get him .... you controlled yourself as you drove (hundreds ?) miles to rescue him.

Just own the fact that you make choices. That way, you cannot play 'victim' which is a self-defeating position.

Your background does not give you a 'get out of jail free' card when it comes to making good choices for yourself.

I did not even say if it was a good choice or not ... just that you are (were) telling yourself a lie and selling yourself short ... you are in control. Own it.

Avoid using victim language. It sends yourself the wrong message.

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />