I'm not sure how to handle this. H went to his mom's about 3 weeks ago, without telling me he was going. After calling him several nights in a row asking if he would be home, he said that he was staying at his mom's. I initially thought he meant that he was staying for good. Well, he called me every night for about week after that. Told me when he called that he loved me. I wrote him a letter during that time telling him my heart and how I'm working on me. He read it and thanked me for it. Then he stopped calling. I called a couple times about things that needed to be dealt with. We have a 13 yr old son at home and we're building a house. No R talk. He has said several times that he will call me later and never does.

Well today I talked to H's sister about S going on vacation with them. This has been planned for several months. Most of his cousins under 18 are going. Anyway, I had a question for her. When she answered and found out it was me, she said "I'm sorry you and Doug aren't together anymore." Well, I have to say that, while not totally surprised, H hasn't said anything like that to me. When i asked him at one point about what to tell S, he said he'd already talked to him. When i asked S what H had said to him, he said that H had said he was just staying at his mom's for a few days.

So, what should I do? Should I bring up R? Do I just assume that he's going to file for D and plan accordingly. I would rather not be surprised by being served divorce papers. I really think this is what he will do. Who knows, he may have told S already what he has planned but I don't want to ask S and maybe put him in the middle. And if he plans on divorcing, I don't want to stay in the house I'm in now, for a lot of reasons. It's old and has wiring issues among other things, that H never got around to fixing and doesn't want to pay someone to fix.

Anyway, enough of that. I'll take any advice. I'm trying not to act rashly and make a wrong move. I'd like to save our M, but I don't know if that's possible. Thanks,

I'm precious

Bump. I know some of you out there are trying to avoid me and that's ok. I know there are people out there who have great advice for me before I do something stupid. Should I confront H? Should I just wait and see what happens? I'm working on me and the issues I have which are many. I'm in IC, although she advises that I give up on M. This is not what I want to do.

I'm precious

I read your post earlier today and am sorry I didn't respond sooner ... certainly wasn't avoiding your post. I just didn't know what to say. I don't know your sitch. What have you & your H tried so far? What do you think prompted him to move out?

"When she answered and found out it was me, she said "I'm sorry you and Doug aren't together anymore."

I know it's hard to interpret this any other way, but I guess I always rather hear it from the horse's mouth, if you know what I mean. Any way you can ask your H to meet you somewhere neutral and have this discussion so that you know exactly where things stand? If anything, for the sake and welfare of your son? The unknown is what always scares me the most.

"I'm trying not to act rashly and make a wrong move."

This is smart - esp. when you have a child involved. Again, I would try to have that conversation w/ your H. Let him know that you're a big girl, that you can handle whatever he decides, but that you just need to know so you can plan your life accordingly as well. If you truly want to work things out, I would suggest letting him know this and what you're willing to do for it, so that he can make his decision and plan accordingly as well.

"I'm in IC, although she advises that I give up on M."

Hmmm ... I'm always a little leery with IC's who would recommend walking away from a M, unless it's abusive in some way. Is this the case? If not, I would highly recommend visiting with another IC or at least get a 2nd opinion.

whisper,

Thanks for the reply. One of my issues I'm working on is angry outbursts. There are many explanations, although obviously, none are excuses. It's a struggle.

As far as history goes, you can read from my sig line that I am the WS. This is also where a lot of people on this board draw conclusions about me without asking further questions. You know, throw stones now, ask questions later. There are things that have happened in my M before and since incident 2 years ago that IC thinks makes H emotionally abusive.

Anyway, with all that said, I still want my M. I have always wanted my M to work. I have been in IC on and off for several years. Until incident 2 years ago, there were a lot of things I had never dealt with. And if incident hadn't happened I probably still would not have started dealing with them. For that I am thankful. I have no where to go but up.

AS far as recovery since incident, H has always said that if I was sick, he would stay with me, but if it was just an A he was leaving. I have tried to get him to come on this board. I've invited him to read my posts. He will do neither. I have done all the things that it says here I should do. I'm where I'm supposed to be. I call him several times a day. He calls me seveal times a day (sometimes). He knows my email password, except at work. Of course there's no way for him to access work email unless he comes to work, which is ok with me. I've told him to check up on me. I've begged him for years and years to go to MC. He refuses. I've told him how I plan on not allowing this to happen again. None of what I tell him is good enough. BTW, I'm complaining about needing to do any of this. I'm just telling you that I've done it. I understand what I need to do and why.

When he first found out about incident, he blamed himself for a short time (a couple of days). I told him that it wasn't his fault. I never once blamed him for that. I've tried apologizing. I can't listen to him tell me about his feelings because when he's had a bad day, he tells me all that's wrong with me. He doesn't tell me about his feelings. He calls me names. Now I'm not going to apologize for not sitting here and allowing him to call me names. I will listen if he wants to tell me how hurt he is, how devistated, how disappointed, etc. But having low self-esteem, thinking I'm a bad person and not valuing myself, etc is what got me into this mess to begin with. I won't go there again.

I could wallow in self pity and go on and on about what a bad person I am, but I won't do that. I could also make everyone here nuts, pulling out their 2x4 by blaming the perpetrator but that won't do any good either. It doesn't matter who's fault it is. It happened. I working through my issues. I'm doing what I need to do to protect myself in the future irregardless of what H decides to do. I'm 44 years old and I've allowed people and events in my past control me for way too long. It's time to do the work that needs to be done and get on with my life as a healthy, vibrant woman who has a lot to give.

Thanks again for the advice.

I'm precious

I know you've got a lot of things on your mind right now, and it's very easy to get defensive given the situation you're in (Note: I understand - I was the FWS too), but if you can help me with a couple of questions, I (or someone with much more wisdom) could possibly jump in and offer suggestions ...

1. What do you think prompted your H to move out? (I ask that you look deep inside yourself for this answer.)

2. Is there any way you can ask your H to meet you somewhere neutral so that you can find out exactly where things stand and where he's heading? If anything, for the sake and welfare of your son?

"I'm where I'm supposed to be. I call him several times a day ... I've told him to check up on me. I've begged him for years and years to go to MC."

Perhaps I'm wrong in interpreting this, but I get the sense that while you say you want the M to work, you're also somewhat holding back b/c you don't want to get your heart trampled on or "lose out," should things advance towards a D. I do understand this, esp. from a practical standpoint. But, at the same time, your H can probably sense this. If your H's self esteem is very low (like how my H's was during and after my A), he's looking for your complete and unihibited love, commitment, reassurance and devotion. You see, IMHO, nothing else will bring him back.

With that said, I truly believe that it takes 2 to make a M work - and BOTH of your hearts have to be in it. Unfortunately, it took us 7 years of very rocky road (we've been married for 12, together for 13), my H and I are finally BOTH willing to buckle down and work on it together ... at the same time! That's why it's so important to know where you AND your H stand on this issue. The question to ask yourselves is - are BOTH of you willing to do whatever it takes to make it work?

Things to think about ...

whisper,

Thanks for the response and I'm offended at all.

In answer to the 1st question, I may need to think about that one for a while. It's the 2 year mark of the whole thing, with 2 year mark for d-day coming up June 24th. On the one hand H wants me to be sorry about everything, but on the other if I apologize then it was "just an affair" and he's leaving. As I said, he never talked about his feelings, etc. When he was having a bad day, if he said anything, it was just to call me names, etc. I, of course, have had angry outbursts in response to this. I think that he expected something from me because of this 2 year "anniversary". However, I'm not sure what that was supposed to be. It seems that things have just escalated to the point that we couldn't be together 5 minutes without conflict.

I agree with your idea for meeting at a neutral place. I'm not sure if he would show up. I'm sure he would say that he would, but not sure that he would follow through. I guess I don't know if I don't try.

As for holding back, I'm sure you're right about that. I'm willing to try, but don't want to be the only one to try. And while I understand that what happened 2 years ago was devistating to him, I can't forget about the 13 years previous to that. Not that I was a saint during that time either but it was a joint effort that got our M to the place it was.

I have read "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters". I understand the principals and am working on them within myself. I balk at some of the things written in the books, but am working on that. As I said, I don't want to be the person I've been for all these years. It's time to grow and grow up. There's so much I need to learn and I don't even know where to start with some of it. Thank you for your patience.

I'm precious

You're precious,

Unless you were the victim of a s*xual assault, the first thing you need to do is take responsibility for what you have done. Here's a quote from you :


This is carefully written in the passive voice : an "incident" "happened".

Imagine that. Everybody was just standing around and all of a sudden, an "indicent happened". Nobody did anything, something just happened. Right?!

You are never going to make any real progress until you start saying, at the very least, "I had an affair".

Nothing happened. You did something.

Every time you describe your cruel betrayal in the passive voice - as something that "happened", you are trying to avoid accepting responsibility.

I imagine you talk to your H this way too. I can understand why he would not want to be around to be insulted by such talk.

Further, I would say, until you acknowledge that you made a conscious choice to do something extremely cruel to your husband (have an affair), and destructive to your family - until you recognize that you had, and mis-used, the power of choice in this "incident", your husband can never come to the point of trusting you. Because if you were, on this occasion, enveloped by an "incident" in which you do not admit responsibility, it can "happen" again - and again - and again.

First step is to say "I am an adulterer. By my selfish choice I inflicted a great emotional injury to my husband. By my selfish choice I hurt my son."

After that, there are plenty of folks here who can suggest some following steps.

-AD

This is an excellent post by AD, Precious.

Because at the root of your AO's, aside from being fear based is a lack of understanding and acceptance of the part you played in your affair and the poor state of your marriage. Even the abuse part.

I can see it because I am just realizing that I allowed myself to play the role of the victim. I let ex deceive me, rather than do the hard work of moving on and letting nature take it's course by me doing what I needed to do.

My AO's were of fear and anger at myself. I had given up my control over my own life. I was living at effect instead of at cause.

Hope that makes sense and helps you in some small way Precious.

Ad and Weave,
Thank you for your responses. You know, you can use the 2x4's all you want, but I stand by my statements. The state of my M didn't cause this to happen. What caused this to happen was my trusting and being manipulated by a predator. Now, should I have recognized this? I'm sure I should have. Should I have said no? Of course I should have. But I wasn't able to at the time. Could I now? You bet I could! Did I have a victim mentality? Sure I did. Do I have a victim mentality now? No! I am a survivor!

Ad,
I didn't say that I was sitting around and suddenly an "incident" happened. I was violated. My trust was violated. And that has probably destroyed my M. For the record, I don't use the word "incident" when talking to H about this. I use the word "affair". It sends him over the edge.


I really wish I could get H to come here and at least read, but he won't. We actually had a few sessions with SH, but H thought that SH was manipulating him, not to mention that the cost was getting prohibitive. It adds up very quickly. I bought the books "Surviving an Affair" and "Torn Asunder". H wouldn't read either of them because if it was "just an affair" he was leaving. He was advised by SH to get on AD and wouldn't. Initially, he went to the doctor who prescribed AD but after 2 or 3 days stopped taking them.

AD and Weaver, thank you again for your responses. I appreciate your input. If you have any advice on how to deal with current situation I would appreciate that also.

I'm precious

You're precious,

Thanks for taking my criticisms in stride.

Of course, you were to some extent a victim. Any married person - who does not hide the fact that they are married - and is persued by somebody, is the victim to some extent.

I still say that you need to lose the passive voice. Prostration of spirit is the attitude that might touch your H's heart.

-AD

In dealing with something unpleasant that has "happened" - facing one who is very unhappy that it "happened", there are two basic approaches.

A) Plead innocence.
B) Accept full responsiblity (and possibly beg for mercy).

Trying to mix them up won't work.

Pleading innocence (even in some small subtle way) when the other person does not believe it - is insulting and makes things worse.

Of course, it's nicer to be innocent, so most WS's will try that angle first - if they see any possibility that it might work. But ultimately, accepting responsibility is the only way out.

-AD

AD,
Thanks for the advice. Since he's not telling me anything and I hear from others bits and pieces, do you think I should take the offensive and ask him what his plans are? BTW, when I say take the offensive, I don't mean be aggressive. I mean just asking him nicely...no LB's. Whisper suggested asking him to meet me in a neutral place and asking him what his plans are. Should I call him since he's not calling me?

I'm precious

IP -

If you're truly looking for good advice, you've got some right here on your thread. Here's what I would suggest (in this order) ...

1. Take ownership for what happened. Nobody is giving you any 2X4's with this suggestion. The reason for taking ownership of the A is so that we can all start to accept responsibilities for our own actions, learn from our past mistakes and "grow and grow up" as you say. This is for YOUR mental and emotional health, regardless if you & your H work things out. Something to note is that I agree with you - your son's psychiatrist was severely wrong and inappropriate to become physically/emotionally involved with you, knowing that you are still married. But, at the same time, every "OP" is inappropriate when they knowingly engage a married person. While this person is a psychiatrist, he was not YOUR psychiatrist. You called him a "predator," which he may very well be. My question to you is does he have a history of getting physically/emotionally involved with his patients (versus his patients' parents)? Does he regularly "prey" on married women for EA/PA's? If the answer is 'no' to both questions, then he's no different than any other "OP." As a FWS, I, too, succombed to the OP b/c I befriended him, I trusted him, and he met my EN's that were not met by my H for a long, long time. Read some of my earlier threads and you'll see how horrible my marriage really was. With this said, it was still MY choice to see him, spend time with him and sleep with him. Nobody forced me to do any of this. You said you've read HNHN. Harley explains that when our EN's are not being met, we're all very vulnerable to an A - regardless how/when/where we meet the OP. I do encourage you to give my suggestion some serious consideration as the success of your M hinges upon it. Sorry, there's just no way around it. It goes back to my question - what are YOU willing to do to make this M work?

Once #1 is fully addressed, then ...

2. Let your H know how you feel (i.e. that you still love him that you want to work things out, that you'll do whatever it takes to make things work). Hanging on to pride and fear will not only prevent but continue to diminish your chances of a good & happy M. It's OK to say "look, I'm sorry. I've done some very shameful things in my life that I will always regret, but I'm willing and prepared to do whatever it takes to make our M work now." It's true. Your H may spit in your face and turn the other way, but at least in your heart you know that you've given it your 100%, and there'll be no regrets, right? You've got nothing to lose here and a whole, happy M to gain!

3. W/o LB's, find out how your H feels and what are his true intentions. This is critical, if anything, for your son. At least you know where you stand and can plan accordingly. If you can get a control of your anger (I've the same problem) and offer no LB's, you may be surprised at what he'd say. Again, you've got nothing to lose here. Do you really want to live in limbo-hell for the rest of your life? Doesn't sound like fun to me. I've been there & done that for waaaay too long to know better.

4. Take a good look at yourself and ask - are there areas that I need to improve upon personally? What do I need to do to become independent and happy? If the tables were turned, would you take you back? If not, what changes/improvements would you need to make so that you H would want you back? Write these things down and then start working on it! Regardless if things do/do not work out b/t you and your W, you'll be a better person and will be prepared for whatever comes in life.

I truly wish you well, IM. These are some of the hardest things one must do in search of true happiness (esp. in a M). I'm sure you can do it!

i'm precious, I am on the other side from you. It appears that you have done much more than my WW to reconcile the M. All that I want from her is to admit the A, acknowledge that she was wrong and the A was not justified in some manner, apologize, inform me that she still loves me and wants the M to work, let me know that she is willing to do anything to help me through the dark times and to let me know why we will never have to go through this again.

This is what I ask and all that a BS can expect. If you have done all of this and your BS will not accept you back and work on the M, then you should move toward D and start your life over. You might have done something badly wrong but you ALSO did everything that a human could do to make things right. This would say a great deal about you as a person. Good luck.

whisper,

Thanks again for the response. I don't know if S's psychiatrist has ever done this before. I do know that he told me at one point that, while he was a resident, he was named in a lawsuit. He didn't say what the suit was. He just told me that he everyone working in that department was named. Do I think he'll do to someone else what he did to me. You betcha. He has the perfect set up. Part of treating children is sometimes also treating the family/parents. The jerk opened that door because of things S told him. One of those was that he was afraid H and I would get a divorce. H went on a couple of visits with S and me. The jerk talked to S and then to whoever brought S to appt. He asked about our M, our personal lives, etc. When H was there he answered questions the same as I did. So, while H and I weren't officially patients, the lines were very blurred. The only thing I haven't done is pick up S's records to see what, if anything, he wrote regarding family issues in S's chart.

I filed a complaint with the state licenseing board. The complaint is still open. I called a few months ago to make sure it was still open, as I hadn't heard anything in quite some time. I was told that it is. As I said before, if I were to find myself in the same situation today, I would be able to recognize what was going on and run. 2 years ago, I wasn't there yet. I know this is hard for a lot of people to understand. I'm just beginning to understand and work through all this crap myself. I will take responsibility for not getting help sooner, for not working through my problems sooner, but I will not take responsibility for that predator. His office was supposed to be a safe place for my family. We went to him for help. Even if I had not been married, what he did was wrong. While a person can't help feelings sometimes, if they are ethical, they recognize when those feelings are wrong, they go to a supervisor, they report what their feelings are and they stop seeing the patient. It's that simple. They don't act on those feelings. They don't put themselves in a position to do something unethical.

But for a predator it's the perfect set up. The lines are blurry. The parents are as invested or more so than the child, they are vulnerable, they are possibly at the end of their rope, they've tried everything and find this person is supposed to help them. And in my case there were a lot of unresolved issues and conflicts which I'm sure he picked up on. Again they are issues that I should have worked on before but had just not been able to. Again, I was betrayed by someone I should have been able to trust. But it won't happen again. I'm a different person now. I'm not the vulnerable person I was. I'm strong. I've chosen not to be a victim any longer. I'm a survivor!

bobsmiley,
Thanks for your encouragement. I'm really sorry that your W hasn't recognized how lucky she is to have a H willing to work on the M and see it through the long haul. My heart goes out to you. Keep your chin up. Take it a day at a time and continue to come here for support.

I know I haven't done everything there is to do. I've made plenty of mistakes in the last 2 years in addition to all the ones I made in the 13 years previous to that. I've made changes but seemed to go 2 steps back for every step forward at times. But I've come to the point that irregardless of the outcome, I have to do these things for me and no one else, so that is what I'm doing. I just hope that H ends up wanting to make it work. I really do love him. I always have. I have always remembered that wonderful man who came along and swept me off my feet 15 years ago. I know he's still there somewhere.

I'm precious