Bumping up for responses on my last post on this thread . . .
thanks
Mulan

up again . . . I know it's the weekend -n- all, but boy could I use some feedback . . .
Mulan

Hi, Mulan.

Quote:
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Is it possible he's pulling all this crap just to get attention out of me, because I give him virtually no attention any other time?
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Well, have a look at the facts. The man revels in attention, adoration and his accomplishments. What does that tell you about his needs? It's pretty obvious.

It is also obvious that he has issues with your accomplishments. As I stated in a previous post, I think you are excluded because he doesn't want to share a limelight with your success, and he doesn't want to have to acknowledge your contributions to your marriage or anything else.

The problem is that you can't feed his needs because his entitlement is so large that any chance at reciprocity is impossible. You can't put out a forest fire with a gallon of water. This is evidenced by the fact that you give, he gets comfortable and returns to his base behavior.

What I have been trying to tell you, Mulan, is that you can't fix him. Your marriage isn't broken because emotional needs aren't being met, it is broken because you won't face the truth about what you are married to - a broken husband. His level of insecurity is quite high.

You are exacerbating the problem by trying to manipulate the situation through a plan to get his attention. The reason that what you are doing isn't working, is that he will burn down hell to feed his entitlement, and his entitlement includes not giving you anything you want from him. So whenever you attempt to get his attention, you end up angry because he doubles the distance, knowing that it will drive you close to insane with anger and resentment. He wins.

This is why you simply must turn loose, and get yourself completely under control. You can't get where you want to go from where you are. It is going to take a completely different tack.

By getting yourself honestly under control, you will immediately lessen his ability to get to you. That will upset his control. I hope that you recognize that he is winning at this game right now. Here is the rub. You are wasting your time getting angry about it.

That's about all I will throw at you to start. Please let me know if you want to pursue this further. I don't want to waste your time or mine.

All the best,
Gimble

***Well, have a look at the facts. The man revels in attention, adoration and his accomplishments. What does that tell you about his needs? It's pretty obvious.***

I've always known this about him. It's just that it has gotten outrageously out of hand the higher up the ladder of success he climbed.

***It is also obvious that he has issues with your accomplishments. As I stated in a previous post, I think you are excluded because he doesn't want to share a limelight with your success, and he doesn't want to have to acknowledge your contributions to your marriage or anything else.***

I absolutely get the feeling that he can't stand sharing the limelight with me at all, like a dog who won't share the food bowl because he might miss a crumb. For me, any success is far better when you have someone to share it with. He has gone completely the other way. I've never seen anything like it.

Although he's a really big Big Shot now, he comes from the poorest of white-trash backgrounds. I'm one of the few people who knew him back then. He is DESPERATELY afraid that the Harvard MBAs he works with now will find out about this. WH never even graduated from high school. And I wonder if he began marginalizing me because I am part of his past and I know the truth about it. I was there for him at the beginning and these people he's so desperate to impress now woudn't have given him the time of day back then. I did, but now *I'm* the one who gets pushed aside.

He is close to the rest of his family -- like I said, he's at the family reunion/wedding right now -- but the rest of his family would never have interaction with anyone he works with. There's always the horrible chance that I might.

***The problem is that you can't feed his needs because his entitlement is so large that any chance at reciprocity is impossible. You can't put out a forest fire with a gallon of water.***

Oh, absolutely. I did at least have the sense to know that I cannot compete with every bimbo at work and every stripper and wh*re on the road. I offered what I could, but you're right, I'm only a gallon of water.

***This is evidenced by the fact that you give, he gets comfortable and returns to his base behavior.***

Yep, that's exactly what happens.

***What I have been trying to tell you, Mulan, is that you can't fix him. Your marriage isn't broken because emotional needs aren't being met, it is broken because you won't face the truth about what you are married to - a broken husband. His level of insecurity is quite high.***

Even my DD30 -- I was briefly married once before, long ago; she is WH's stepdaughter and he raised her -- has noticed his constant need to brag about his accomplishments and make everything all about him. She and I both agree that it's only someone who is very, very insecure who has to do this.

***You are exacerbating the problem by trying to manipulate the situation through a plan to get his attention. The reason that what you are doing isn't working, is that he will burn down hell to feed his entitlement, and his entitlement includes not giving you anything you want from him.***

I guess I'm trying to understand why it would feed his entitlement to give me nothing -- because there might be that much less for himself? Like the dog and the food bowl? I should add that he is a very good provider of material things and can be a lot of fun on a date, but when it comes to emotional support for *me* -- forget it.

My theory is that he feels he should be able to take all of my emotional support and attention totally for granted, so that he can spend *his* emotional capital elsewhere (like on some bimbo at work) and get a bigger bang for the buck that way. Why waste it on me? He was never happier than when he was eating it up all day long from the office bimboes and then coming home to me at night for more.

***So whenever you attempt to get his attention, you end up angry because he doubles the distance, knowing that it will drive you close to insane with anger and resentment. He wins.***

"Wins" because even negative attention is better than no attention?

***This is why you simply must turn loose, and get yourself completely under control. You can't get where you want to go from where you are. It is going to take a completely different tack.***

***By getting yourself honestly under control, you will immediately lessen his ability to get to you. That will upset his control. I hope that you recognize that he is winning at this game right now. Here is the rub. You are wasting your time getting angry about it.***

Yes, you're right. Trying to reason with someone like this really is worse than useless. It just feeds that monster ego every time I try.

WH and DS17 left Wednesday morning for the reunion/wedding. I left a few voice mails and did talk to DS, but have not spoken directly to WH since they left. My last voice mail was about 24 hours ago. The wedding is sometime today or tonight. I know he will be expecting me to try and contact him because I always do when he's gone (yes, I always cave, and I'm ashamed of that and I'll admit the weakness) but this time I am determined to hold out and maintain radio silence.

Just to help my own stress, I have the ringers turned off on the house phones and the volume off on the answering machine. If the message light is blinking, I check it, but otherwise I am not sitting here waiting for the g*ddam phone to ring. (It's not going to, so I don't have to worry about it.) My cell is turned off as well and I just check voice mail periodically. It may sound stupid, but hey, whatever works.

I will watch to see if anything changes when he hears *nothing* from me for some 60 hours. That would be a very big change. They are not due back until very late Sunday night.

Heh.

***That's about all I will throw at you to start. Please let me know if you want to pursue this further. I don't want to waste your time or mine.***

Please do go on. Anyone else who wants to join in as well, feel free. I know there are other WS with this sort of monstrous entitlement going on, too, so maybe we can help each other.

I often wonder if I just got fooled and sucked in by a narcissist. He can be the nicest and most fun guy in the world, and like I said he is a great provider, but there's a piece missing somewhere and I can't fill it for him. He constantly looks to the rest of the world to fill up that hole because he's never learned that you don't fill up an emotional hole by *getting* -- you fill it up by *giving.* JMHO.

Thank you very much. Please do go on.
Mulan

bumping myself up again, in case there's anybody out there . . . the wedding is today and it's freakin' me out, mannnnn . . .
Mulan

Hi Mulan,

I really don't know what to say, but I'm generally around on weekends, so I hear you.

Isn't there anyone you can call and go out with, a friend, family, go to the movies, maybe.

In the worst moments I found that being distracted for a while really helped and the movies were the best distraction


Anything I can do?

Hi Mulan, I know this is a tough weekend for you - but hang in there!

Our H's sound very similar. I am trying to let go too, as Gimble has suggested. I no longer want him to have power over my happiness - as long as I let him have THAT power, the more he tries to control it and I get lost in trying to be something that is not the real me and jumping through an endless array of hoops he's devised.

My H has always controlled the money, what furniture we bought, what was planted in the yard, whatever we do for fun (which ain't much anymore) and what I did with MY time.

Well, things changed a bit after his A a couple of years ago and he's having a hard time with me not jumping so fast anymore. It's been a slow process but he's losing control and he's an angry man. According to him, I'm responsible for everything wrong in his life, I'm really too stupid to do all the things he expects me to do for him. Everyone else is better, smarter, slimmer, prettier, sexier, more attentive, and thinks he's wonderful, but he expects me to "fix" things for him.

I'm not real mean about it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'm just doing the things I've waited for him to do - and I'm spending MY money on it so he has NO say. I've planted aztec grass border around the pool, planted daylillies around my new birdfeeder (he hates border grass and daylillies - something from his childhood maybe? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />) and I'm happy when I sit by the pool and watch the birds and butterflies and slap mosquitos!
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I don't mean to ramble and complain. Just want you to know I understand how you feel and how hard and hurtful it is to be treated like this.

Maybe with Gimble's input, we can kill (not literally <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> ) two bird-brains (WHs) with one stone! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Take care Mulan and stay strong.

Mulan -

Your husband sounds just like my WH. Mine came from the same kind of family. They were desperately poor, and moved (I think when the rent was not paid) 20 times while he was growing up.

I knew him at work, before I married him. His last wife divorced him - she says she always "felt last on his list". At work, and EVERYWHERE else, he is very well liked. He has always been the life of the party, and does all kinds of things for everyone.

When we were dating, he treated me very well. Everything started changing as soon as we married.

The funny thing about him is he seems to "need" the security of a wife at home. After he got divorced, he was miserable. As a friend, I used to tell him to go out, but he was too depressed. But once he is married, the whole cycle starts all over again.

Mulan what I found myself becoming was indiffrent to anything my Wh did or wanted. I did not fight or say no. I just stopped caring. If he had brought a wh*re into the house I just asked him to use other bedroom. I stopped - no emotions, I even stopped picking up after fim. We would meet at a resteraunt - I stopped cooking as well. If he got usgly I would get up like I was going to ladies room and leave. He had started not picking me up on his way home from work. When he would work late and not call to tell him he would be late I started gong down to resteraunt and having dinner without him. After one time of getting dinner without him he started to get neverous and started to call to tell me he would be late. When he would not talk to me in the resteraunt I would walk away and talk with others. He wanted us to LOOK like a couple. At times he would make it look like he was a loving H. UGH -makes me sick. I finally told a good friend that he was verbally abusive to me. Then his true colors started coming out in front of people and I would leave. Once after he ate and drank he was looking for me around the resteraunt. An hour after I had left-he hadn't noticed. He came home and was angrier then ever. I said nothing -nada, zip. I just sat and read and ignored. He would say got your hair cut and look at me like he would throw up. I finally said yeah -I got it cut, Oh you don't like it- I new that you wouldn't -and laughed a littel and said But then again there is nothing you like about me anyway. This trew him for a loop. He finally started to realize I was moving on and away. He did not matter to me. He started to change then very slowly. So what I am saying is stop gettting angry- let him have the booze and cigars ect. Don't clean up after him and stop cooking his meals if you haven't already. Its tough but you can do it. Just take care of your son.

OH he did NOY bring a wh*re into house - it was meant just how I was feeling.

***she says she always "felt last on his list". At work, and EVERYWHERE else, he is very well liked. He has always been the life of the party, and does all kinds of things for everyone. ***

Believer, have you been hanging around unseen? I have often said to him that I feel "last on his list," and the rest of the description is *exactly* like him.

Thanks to everyone who responded. Detachment has got to be the way. I am doing very well - it has been some 30 hours since my last voice mail (pathetic, I know, but a record for me when he's gone!) And even better, right now I have NO desire to contact him at all or even check to see if he's called my cell. He may have called the house, but I would not know because all the ringers are off. So far he's left no messages. Other people have, but not him.

I don't know if the wedding is this afternoon or tonight. I could probably find out but I don't even want to. Then I'm not sitting around saying, "Well, it's x o'clock here, so that means it's z o'clock there, and the reception is starting," etc. etc. I'm sure y'all know the drill.

I am spending my time working. Really. I work at home as both a medical transcriptionist and as a novelist. I have three more tapes to transcribe this weekend. And the good news is, my last novel has just been given a February 2006 release date and the publicity people contacted me yesterday about the cover art. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Guess I'd better finish the book, huh?

So, I've got more than enough to do. That and the Kava and checking the boards every hour or so is getting me through.

***I just stopped caring. If he had brought a wh*re into the house I just asked him to use other bedroom.***

Realtor, I wanna be just like you when I grow up!
Mulan

Mulan - I've been mostly on the General Questions board, trying to save my marriage, for 2 and a half years. Now I don't want him back anymore. After all the anguish, I found I am just much happier without him.

OT - I LOVE reading. Let us know the name of your book, when it comes out. I read everything - probably 2 books a week.

Status Report:

I have not tried to contact him in any way for at least a day and a half now (gee, that sounds better than "36 hours," doesn't it!)

He has not left a message on the house phone. I don't know if he's called and hung up because the ringers are off and besides, I was out for a little while anyway.

I have not so much as turned on my cell phone. I don't know if he's tried to call it or left a message on the voice mail.

It's 11:30 p.m. where he is, so no doubt the after-wedding-reception party is in full swing.

Like I said, it's pathetic but it is progress. Usually I would be losing it again by now with something like this (the [email]b@astard[/email] went to a *wedding*/*family reunion* without me!) But I'm going to take some Kava and lie down on the couch with the cat to watch a movie. Got a lot of work done today. Typed two long tapes of medical transcription. Gotta do two more tomorrow.
Mulan

Hi, Mulan.

Quote:
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Although he's a really big Big Shot now, he comes from the poorest of white-trash backgrounds. I'm one of the few people who knew him back then. He is DESPERATELY afraid that the Harvard MBAs he works with now will find out about this. WH never even graduated from high school. And I wonder if he began marginalizing me because I am part of his past and I know the truth about it. I was there for him at the beginning and these people he's so desperate to impress now woudn't have given him the time of day back then. I did, but now *I'm* the one who gets pushed aside.
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And he should be proud of his accomplishment. Instead, he has to maintain a false persona in order to keep a grip on his little empire.

You husband has built a structure that I have seen others build. The problem with his structure is that it is all held together by nothing other than the physics of repose. The problem is that there is nothing to solidify the structure, and once disturbed at its base, its angle of repose exceeded, and it all, or in part, comes tumbling down.

If you want a visual example, consider a large pile of gravel. Every scoop from the base, and the sides slide down and the pile is left lower, often catastrophically. Have you ever seen an avalanche?

By learning to 'stand alone', you remove your part of the pile. Eventually, the pile will become unstable enough that it can't maintain its height, and physics will see to it that the pile gets changed.

Life works much the same as my example, and your hubby is likely due a tumble.

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I guess I'm trying to understand why it would feed his entitlement to give me nothing
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He will go as far as he has to in order to get the desired response from you. That does not speak of respect. It speaks of disrespect and entitlement.

Is your husband much younger than you?

Quote:
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Wins" because even negative attention is better than no attention?
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No, he wins because you normally fold and give him what he expects to get - calls and other nonreciprocal attention directed at him. He expects (feels entitled to) the same thing (nonreciprocal attention directed at him) from his work 'girls' and other admirers. It is a part of his 'pile'.

I am curious if your son has started treating you in a fashion similar to how your husband treats you.

Why do you think you left voice mails for your husband while he is gone?

Why do you think you are having such a hard time with even a few days distance from your husband?

As a wife, do you think you are exhibiting controlling/desperate/grabby/needy behavior?

Do you know the difference between wanting something, and needing it?

Hang in there, Mulan.

All the best,
Gimble

***Is your husband much younger than you?***

You guessed it. We got married when he was 20 and I was 29.

I have dug deep to try to figure out if this has anything to do with the problems we are having now. He swears it does not -- he keeps saying he does not want me to leave and wanted to get married as much as I did -- and when I look back, I see about ten years of a very good marriage (the first ten years.)

As I mentioned before, after about ten years he started getting to be very successful at work *and* he met his first and favorite office bimbo. He learned how easy it was to have a double life if you don't mind lying to people who love and trust you. That's when it started, and I've seen so many other people do the same thing no matter what their ages that it's hard to blame it on an age difference. It would be too easy, really.

Quote:
==================================
Wins" because even negative attention is better than no attention?
==================================
***No, he wins because you normally fold and give him what he expects to get - calls and other nonreciprocal attention directed at him. He expects (feels entitled to) the same thing (nonreciprocal attention directed at him) from his work 'girls' and other admirers. It is a part of his 'pile'.***

"Nonreciprocal attention" -- in other words, it's free. You don't have to give anything in return. Yes, that would be right up his alley.

***I am curious if your son has started treating you in a fashion similar to how your husband treats you.***

Not at all. He does not ignore me, will always call to check in, almost always comes in to see me when he gets home to tell me about what he's doing, etc. I've never caught him a lie of any kind. He has always been a gentleman with his girlfriends and even let me "coach" him through a breakup. Believe me, I am VERY concerned about this -- about DS17 growing up to treat women like his father does -- and so far I have seen no signs of it.

***Why do you think you left voice mails for your husband while he is gone?***
***Why do you think you are having such a hard time with even a few days distance from your husband?***

Just trying to maintain that connection and terrified of losing it. It is my family, after all, and no one wants to sit back and just watch their family drift away. I've also got a whopping case of PTSD from all of this and the panic attacks are sometimes overwhelming. I know, I know, that doesn't make it *right* for me to fail at keeping a distance. You asked, so I answered. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

***As a wife, do you think you are exhibiting controlling/desperate/grabby/needy behavior?***

Well, I don't know about "controlling" or "grabby," but I'll give a "desperate" and "needy."

For many years I gave him virtually total freedom and never questioned anything he did. My mistake. I thought I was being supportive and trusting but he just used this "freedom" to run hog-wild and abuse the living hell out of my trust. I gave him an inch and he took 10,000 miles.

Now I wouldn't trust him if he told me the sky was blue in Arizona.

***Do you know the difference between wanting something, and needing it?***

Yes, I do.

***Hang in there, Mulan.***

Thank you. So far, I am. "Nonreciprocal Attention" makes a lot of sense to me. What else ya got?
Mulan

Update: One message left on my cell sometime in the last day and a half. "Uh . . . just thought I would call . . . I know you're not having a very good time . . . uh, guess I'll call back later . . . "

I can't get the freakin' phone to tell me when it was left. That would be interesting to know. There was no background noise at all. I have *not* called back.
Mulan

Update: No new messages anywhere. I have not contacted him in any way in the last 48 hours.

Nice that WH gets to celebrate Father's Day with his whole family.

WH and DS17 should be getting on the first of their planes to come home about now, so I reconnected all the phones.

Don't mind me. I'm just trying to hang in hour by hour.
Mulan

Keep it up Mulan. Do NOT give him the satisfaction of a response of any kind.

YOU CAN REALLY DO IT!

Update: Message left on the house phone and on my cell. Just the same cold informational message on both: We're at the airport, our plane's late, we'll be in around 2:00 a.m., and oh, by the way, I found out a couple of days ago that have to leave at 9:00 a.m. tomorrow to catch a flight to Chicago for a few days. Well, see ya bye.

It's packed with things that he *knows* will get to me:

There is nothing in there to make me think this is from someone who cares about me; instead, he sounds like he's talking to a no-status employee. Not a word about how are you, are you okay, nada, nothing (and remember, he's heard nothing at all from me for over 48 hours. That is unheard of.) I have talked at great length about how he treats me like an employee and treats his employees like family.

There is another out of town trip for me to deal with. These trips have always been primo chances for him to spend time with bimbo co-workers at fancy banquets and fine restaurants as well as visit porn shops and strip joints after hours.

He's known about his next trip for at least two days and did not even try to let me know. I have, again, talked at great length about wanting to know about his plans when he knows about them.

All things usually guaranteed to twist the knife and set me off.

I have not even tried to call him back.
Mulan

Mulan -

I know how you feel. I don't think he has the slightest intention to change. I think you should start doing things for yourself. You're going to have to get your needs met elsewhere.