Hi.
This site was recommended to me so that I can learn more about affairs.
I will try to explain my sitch. briefly:
Together 15 yrs. Married 10.
I thought we were happily married. Some issues, but didn't realize they apparently were bothering Husband so much.
Last Oct. husband began acting very different. Mean. Distant. Started staying out all night. New group of friends. I panicked, cried, stalked, spyed, you name it. Found out about A. Complicated. H has claimed they are "just friends", then admitted Affair, then recanted, back and forth over and over. Husband moved out and in with her. We have had quite the ordeal going on.
Currently: financial devastation. We are separated. Husband has all his things at her place, mostly packe in boxes in her garage. He and I agreed to separation. He has said "not sure" about divorce, he still loves me, etc. He now says he wants to just be friends for awhile while we work on things. I think that is fine. He also claims that right now "there is no relationship". I have tried to set my boundary and told him that I would leave the door open to the possibility of working things out, but I would not stay married to a man living with another woman. Husband has since been staying at our house, I am not. The house is up for sale. Husband just started a job, cannot afford to get a place of his own. So husband has been staying at the house some, I still believe he spends nights over with other woman, I still believe the affair is going on. The half-truths, complete lies and sprinkled honesty make it hard to sort the fact and fiction. Husband has agreed to counseling and we are going to set that up this week. I am willing to work on his issues completely, am in agreement with us being separated. Not ok with this other relationship of course. Problem is all his friends are her friends and I don't think he will give that up. Also, house may close in a month, and I am thinking he will move in with her, which is a boundary I am not willing to tolerate. I have been working on the "Divorce Busting" methods and am having some success...just am impatient and it definitely requires patience. So that sums it up I guess. Any information on affairs, on methods I could use, or any useful information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

So I am trying to be very effective in the methods I apply. H is on the fence, denies A is in progress, but I don't believe it. I think he is waiting to see if I can really make some changes. I am, but it is very hard to resist the urge to give an ultimatum. I find myself biting my tongue on this quite often.
Probably most of you know the things that don't work- as do I. I am trying to work on things that do.
First off- no chasing. I have changed this big time. H has responded well to it. But then I had to start contacting him alot about financial stuff- and he has mentioned it is not giving us space. So that part is no good. I have to back off majorly.
2. Validating. I only really started doing this well a couple days ago. Before I would listen, try to explain myself and why his view of it wasn't accurate. Wrong. I would take things way too personally. Need to remember it is the alien talking. Then I tried to repeat back what he said to me. NO that isn't validating. I finally am starting to get the knack of it, with positive response. So I need to practice this and really get it ingrained.
3. Other things I am working on- things H has complained about, but that really help me. My perfectionism. Did not realize how much that impacted my whole life and my relationships. It is amazing. I am learning alot here. My perfectionism is related to my fear of not being good enough, my low esteem, and to anxiety I get when things aren't going as planned or smoothly. I am learning how much this affects those around me and it makes others feel I am controlling- when really I don't even want to be, but I guess it does come across like that.
4. trying to figure out how I can do more deposits in the love bank. For H this means recreational time together, which unfortunately he spends his favorite hobby with OW now. Does not help. So he and I had decided to get together weekly just to get to know eachother again. So I am trying to use this time to shine and provide that recreational companionship. I can try to make the most of it- but again, he spends alot more time with OW doing these things. I can only do what I can though.
I also need to make him feel admired and respected. This is a large part of our problem. The last year he did not help much financially, I was working 2 full-time jobs and in my last year of college. I was really pressuring him to get a job and I think it hurt his esteem more than I knew. So I need to let him know I appreciate his efforts and respect him.
I also need to let him know I trust him, even though in the A dept. I obviously do not. However, trust him to take care of things, not try to help or do things for him. Don't offer advice unless asked.
I need to back off. I have slipped lately and said ILY and have not been as detached. It was effective when I was detached. Sometimes, though, he tells me ILY and so I am uncertain if I should say it back. Also, he has been initiating some hugs. I then started this too. I think I should let him initiate the hugs.
My biggest obstacle is that he tells me he will live at the house, (I am staying elsewhere) and I think he does some, but that he also stays with OW and I am tired of the lies in that dept. I know he wants to try to not be in the A, wants maybe to be "just friends" with her, but it isn't easy, and he can't stick to it, so then he just lies. And if he lies and gets away with it, then he might think, oh good I can have my cake and eat it too. At the same time, I don't think it will be productive to call him a liar. I want to tell him no contact. But we've been down that road. He has promised and everything, but doesn't do it. How long am I supposed to just let this crud go on? This is the patience part. But I think as long as he thinks he can have it both ways he won't be motivated to change it.
Another positive is that I found a great pro-marriage C and H agreed to try it out. He got IC with her and he really liked her. From what he told me, she did alot of validating. Anyway, he has said there are things he wants to talk about and asked for us to have a session together for this. I think that is good. I really want to start talking about this A business, but in his eyes the A has nothing to do with our problems. It may didn't before...but hey it does now bucko! But I think I should wait and address his stuff first, as validating that this stuff is important, I am not trying to control the direction of it, etc. etc. This is my challenge, as again, I have a hard time not making it the issue it is.
Also, I am working on getting better at communication. Understanding the diff. in men and women (Mars and Venus stuff). Probably the biggest thing I got from that is the cave concept. I never did let my H go into his cave. Also, don't offer advice unless asked.
It is so important I don't let my impatience and emotions let me do things that even slightly withdraw from the love bank. Can't afford it! I need to only make deposits. This is a great way to look at it. I am going to treat it like I am depositing a paycheck into a savings account. It is easier for me to see the reward of the effort that way.
Any other advice on things I can do, or input on what I am trying to do?

It sounds like you've learned a lot, and you know what works and what doesn't.

Good Job hon,

-Caren

BTW I can completely relate to the panicking, clinging stalking thing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks. I am wanting to learn more. So my H's love lang.s I believe are recreational companionship and admiration. I don't know how I can provide the rec. companionship more than OW, since she participates in that club with him. Any opinions on this?
Admiration- I am having difficulty with this. H has been a REAL JERK and there is not much I can openly admire that he is going to believe. It needs to be real. OW is fawning all over him and how great he is. Help here?
Also, in reading His Needs, Her Needs, it is advised that women do not allow a H's A to continue. If the contact isn't ended, the A won't end, the M won't last. I have tried confrontation, just met with lies. H has promised no contact, but didn't follow through...actually he did go out of state and OW drove to him 1000 miles one way to pursue him and he caved. Addiction? I don't know how I can fill H's emotional needs that I haven't when I think they are filled by OW more than I can, simply because he is with her, doing the activities with her, etc. Please advise me here.

One thing that helped me to express admiration to my FWH when there was not much at the moment to admire, was to fall back on the past. "I've always appreciated the way you _______," (even if he is not doing ____ right now), or "You've always been such a great father to the children," (even if he is not being a great father now). Think back to the early days, and compliment him for what and how he was back then. At least for me, it had the same effect as if I were talking about something current.

sh, have you read Surviving an Affair? The reason I ask is that I think you are about ripe for Plan B.

For example, if your house closes in a month, he will likely be forced to move in with the OW. That would be an opportune time to move right into Plan B, if you execute a flawless Plan A between now and then.

I think you are getting the hang of Plan A, but I also suspect he is in cake eating mode, meaning that he is enjoying having his needs met in 2 places. He likes having you sitting on the sidelines waiting for him. But if you move onto Plan B, he will be forced to see that the OW can't possibly meet all of his needs. This may yank him off the fence if he thinks you are moving on. It would also give you an opportunity to detach from the madness.

Does he have a drinking problem? He seems very unpredictable and erractic to me. How old is he?

Who is this OW? Is she single? Where does she work? What do you know about her? Have you exposed this affair to your family, his family and your close friends?

H is 39. H has never had a drinking problem, but I do know that the group H is hanging with like to drink and party, and are all in their late 20s.
H's OW is M and getting D. Has 2 children living with her. They met through this club. It is a history club, and they do reenactment, make armour and go fight with sticks, go on campouts. It's a really big club nationwide. OW is in late 20s, completely opposite of me. She is chubby, has dark short black hair, is into the "goth" thing. Also is into bondage. She works for an insurance company doing computer stuff.
This is why I think this is a MLC. H is acting like a teenager and hangs out with others who are also. Plus, the whole identity thing, job/career transition.
I did tell his family. I also have also let some friends now. H only hangs out with these new friends now, all whom see them as a couple.
Does that answer all the Q's?
Oh...no, I haven't read that book yet. Plan to go to library tomorrow. I can imagine plan B is just to discontinue contact? I'm not sure...I think some things I am doing are working. But it may be that is what I need to do. Spending recreational time together is effective though, and we just started doing that. Also, H is the one who wanted this C session and has said he will work on things. This is a step forward even if he is back and forth.
Also, I am supposed to have a C session with H. Thinking I should really confront and lay the BS out.
Thank you for the idea of admiration of things past. I will have to start there.

Also, just want to point out that the stuff I've been doing that line up with the A plan, I have only been doing for about a month- before this I was doing all the stuff you are not supposed to do. I read you don't want to initiate Plan B until you are sure Plan A isn't working.
With regards to H's back and forth admittal of A, do I need to confront him in the C? If he admits it here, he is unlikely to go back, though he may try to minimize it. If I should do this, how should I go about it?

sh, I think another month of Plan A will be just about right, unless, like you say, Plan A effectively breaks up the affair, which I sort of doubt in this case. The entire purpose of Plan A is to break up the affair. The closing of your house will dovetail very nicely with Plan B and give him a huge wake up call at one time. That might serve to shake him off the fence.

I would suggest confronting him about the affair now, instead of waiting for counseling. He doesn't have to admit it, you already know its true. He knows its true. I would calmly - but firmly - tell him what you know. I would not give away your source, though.

I have confronted him before...sometimes he'll admit, then he'll recant, etc. I do feel in the C will be more effective and we are going to do that this week.
What I don't know is how to effectively do this. I think he needs to feel safe in being honest, feel comfortable in not being judged or belittled, and I think it is hard for him to confront his shame about it. It's easier to pretend what he is doing isn't wrong. He once said "we're separated, so it is not an A" now he says there is no R, but they still spend time together, so it's a bunch of bull. This is what I need to get a handle on. He can't go back to playing games and acting like nothing is going on. He needs to face it and deal with it. I swear if the No contact stuff doesn't start, this isn't going to end. I don't have the patience or the desire to let it go on like that. But I do want to present this in the best way possible. And I know he thinks that all the time we spend together is so difficult, because in essence very much of the time we have spent together has been on this stuff. So I need to really get that quality no stress time in. At the same time, I don't want to let this continue anymore.
What are the best ways to confront a person without getting them defensive, etc.?

sh, the best way to do it is to begin by telling him that you love him and want to save your marriage. You then proceed to tell him that you know he is still in an affair, and tell him the affair hurts you deeply and stands in the way of marital recovery. Emphasize that you want to save your marriage and believe you can make him happy.

You don't ask him if he is having an affair. You don't have to ask about what you both already know. He doesn't have to admit what you both already know so don't try to force him to do so. Just tell him you already know. If you ask or accuse you just get into a battle of wills for no reason.

So, just get it out there that you DO KNOW and still want to work on your marriage anyway.

THEN, when you are with him, STOP talking about your relationship. Just be as attractive and enjoyable as possible. No relationship talks whatsoever.

I would also question the point of even going to marriage counseling. MC is pretty useless when the WS is still in an affair. MC is for recovery, and your H isn't anywhere near that. I would recommend taking that money to Steve Harley, who is an expert on infidelity, for individual counseling and guidance on how to bust up this affair. He can assess your situation and give you a strategy for helping to end the affair and get your marriage back on track.

H and I have each talked to this MC independently. She is very pro-marriage and an expert. H states he really likes her. Also, he wanted to have this session. I agreed to it. So I definitely do not want to back out from that.
The MC follows the Divorce Busting techniques. I see that Harley has many similarities in his methods, but also a significant difference I notice is the confrontation about the A. So I feel a little confused about how to best handle it and I am scared to make anything worse. I only want to make positives, positives and deposits into H's love account, hence my reluctance. I don't know if I should just wait a little while until we have had more Positive interactions without all the issues to deal with before bringing on more again.
I think I maybe should just let H talk about his issues that he feels are important and validate, and then bring up a separation agreement, which he and I have talked about a little and he seems receptive to. Then ask this C for the next steps we should take. I do think in a way if I was really patient and waited this A out we could eventually work it out. I don't know if I am willing to do that for some indef. time though. Or that if I do, we will recover. I told him already that I realized I had made some poor choices in this, that I was just making sure to do no more damage. That really goes for him too. If he continues the lying, deceipt, not making some real effort...the damage done may be too great and I will walk away. That is why I don't know should I confront, should I not....it is a hard call and I want to make the right choice.

sh, I don't think confrontation is a negative, but rather, a positive, in that it gets the truth out on the table. Confrontation is a very positive thing in that it brings the WS to the understanding that you know what is happening and that you are willing to forgive him. It pretty much disables his need to lie and removes all pretense. If he thinks, for some reason, that you don't know, then he only harbors fears that you won't forgive him if you did know. Telling him what you know eliminates all that anxiety. It also sends the message that his deceit is successful.

Frankly, I can't imagine thinking of confrontation as a negative and in all the years I have been on this forum, I have never known it be a negative. I think the WS operates under enough illusions as it is, without adding to it for absolutely no good reason. But, it sounds like you have already made up your mind on how to handle this and don't need my input. Take care.

Hi, still_hopeful.

I am curious as to how you plan to eventually address the issue of STD's without confronting hubby about the affair?

I don't meant to frighten you, but affairs are serious business, and can be deadly

MEL is considered a very wise poster here. You can trust her input.

God bless,
Gimble

I guess I just get so confused because with Divorce Busting techniques you are not supposed to bring up the OW or your relationship.
H knows I know about A. It is just stupid that he tries to deny it. I just don't know what I can do to get him to open up. I think he sees that if it is hidden, he can keep doing it, but if it's admitted he has to make a choice and doesn't want to. I am afraid by forcing a choice, he will abandon the M, even though he isn't sure, but he doesn't want to give up the A.
STD's will have to be brought up. It's not like we are intimate anyway.
I am tired of him acting like he wants to work on it, but in his mind we are "just friends" right now so he thinks he has no obligation. I don't think there has been enough positive to get him to want to give up something, such as the A. At the same time, his emotional detachment from me makes it hard to get more positive, he simply is not available to me emotionally to rekindle the connection.
This is so painful. I still can't believe the barrier he has put up against me and that he feels ok to be so deceiptful. He must think so little of me. My feelings are just not important to him. It's all about his instant gratification.
So by confronting, it would be great, if he would actually be truthful. I don't know that he is willing to do that, and so then the confrontation seems to backfire.
I wish this wasn't so hard. I am tired of trying so hard, and him just putting in minimal effort...if even that or is it just a display of putting in effort.
I wish I didn't love him. I don't want to keep living like this.
I may try to talk to him about this, but I can't force him to be open about it.

Hi, SH.

You are right. You can't force him to do anything.

One of the reasons that confrontation is the appropriate thing to do, is because you can't see around or over the affair, just like an elephant in your bedroom, with you and hubby on either side trying to talk around it.

At least with the truth out in the open, he can be assured that your actions are honest, even though his are not.

Deception is the heart of an affair. It is part of the fantasy and part of what makes it fun. By exposing it to the light of day, its true ugliness can be seen.

Confrontation and exposure also serve another very important need. It takes power away from the wayward spouse and puts it back into the hands of the honest spouse. That power he wields over you, the leading on, the lying, the feeling in your gut that all is not as it seems, his actions that don't match his words(broken promises), is not legitimate for him to possess. By exposing, you at least get to operate from a point of truth.

In my life, meeting life's challenges head on, has kept me alive and functional in circumstances that would have killed me otherwise. While you may think you won't face such extremes, there are people here that have lost children, and yet consider the pain of betrayal the worst pain of their lives. What you are facing is very real, hurtful beyond what someone that hasn't experienced it can imagine, and here to stay for a while. Closing your eyes and ignoring it, won't fix it or make it better. Unlike the childhood 'boogeyman', this monster won't go away when you stick your head under the covers and lie very still and flat.

You can't stop the pain that has come to visit you. You can only go through it. What you can do is be honest as to its source, and deal with it head on.

If you do decide to confront him, don't expect truth from him. Don't tell him your sources. Do tell him that you know he is in an affair. Don't argue with him when denies it.

You are not forcing a choice when you expose. You are forcing truth. All the threats that a wayward spouse uses against a betrayed spouse are in an effort to control the betrayed spouse so that the adulterous party can continue feeding their addiction unabated.

The affair is not about you, it is about the wayward spouse. Everything is about the wayward spouse continuing to feed what makes the wayward spouse feel good. That is why you appear unimportant to him.

All the best,
Gimble

I don't know why I am having such anxiety over this.
I am just afraid I guess. I let my fear paralyze me. I just don't want anymore bad to come from this.
Help me understand. How does bringing it up help if he continues to deny? It seems it makes him ultra-defensive and then he puts up walls and we are further apart than before. He doesn't feel safe enough to be honest and I don't think I can create that in one conversation. I think it may be more effective to go slow, but it is painful to do that. I am not wanting to ignore this or pretend it isn't happening. I just don't want to have more barriers put up. He I believe is compartmentalizing and as he says we are just working on being friends right now, I think he justifies it isn't really doing something wrong. But I think he is also just really starting to come around a bit and see a little of his actions in this. The stuff I have been doing with divorcebusting seems to be effective. It is just so slow. I don't know if we just work on MC for his issues first- what he wants to do, he will then begin to feel better and a little like maybe he wants to then start working on stuff too. Also, I think it is possible that he is attempting to be just friends with OW, but we all know that won't work. I am sorry I am being so wishy washy about this. I was doing pretty good and all this just has me feeling so insecure about what to do. I do think a conversation about it is going to have to happen...I just want to ensure good timing and when he is really available to be open. I wonder if I keep doing A plan stuff for a month or so, if it will make that difference.

Hi, SH.

How would you know when he is open?

How would you know when he is being honest?

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I just don't want anymore bad to come from this.
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How can you stop it? He may decide to end your marriage. Why should that be a one-sided, unilateral decision? Isn't it part your marriage too?

If you confront him, there is a very good chance that he will get angry and threaten to do all kinds of things.

If you expose his affair, there is an extremely high probability that he will get very angry.

Facing conflict in a good relationship is a necessity. Avoiding necessary conflict in an unhealthy marriage, is a sure fire way to make it worse. I am not talking about you controlling, I am talking about facing the facts of his actions and yours, and how they are affecting your marriage.

I will leave it here, and let others tell you what they think.

I don't want you to do something that you find untenable. I like some of the divorce busting concepts, but I take serious issue with the conflict avoidance approach to infidelity. For that matter, I have some issues with the marriage builders approach to infidelity. I do, however, find it much more effective at killing affairs and pointing spouses back toward each other in a healthy way.

Please make your own decision regarding your marriage.

One last thing. I mentioned the pain you must go through. I completely understand you not wanting to make it worse, and wanting to find the shortest path through your pain. No one can provide that information for you. It is simply not available to humans. I can tell you with fair confidence, that the methods here statistically work well, and I have looked at both methods. However, there are simply no guarantees about what will work in your situation.

All the best,
Gimble

Ok. I have been learning a little more about plan A, and see that the purpose is to try to end the A. So looking at that, I know H knows I am aware that there was an A. I am confused if it is still going on- but they are remaining friends and he claims it isn't. I obviously know even IF he is making that attempt, it will be unsuccessful with continued contact. This is where H and I have had HUGE fights. I demand he end all contact. H will promise he will, doesn't get around to it, doesn't do it. I haven't even asked lately. Last thing I said was that I will not do more damage, if he wants me to keep the door open to possibility of us reuniting then he can't do more damage either. (I worded it better).
But he seems to think continued friendship with her is not causing damage, or if I don't know if A is still underway there's no damage.
I am at the point, I think of not discussing the A. But at getting him to truly break the contact. I think this will be very difficult. He did leave the state and she drove 1000 miles to go see him. Then the A started again.
He also has his entire group of friends with her.
I don't see how he is going to truly break that contact and that is what is needed here. He I think feels that he doesn't want to end it when he's not sure about us. He wants to keep it just in case.
So would this be something that I should try to get some counseling with the Harley's? I know that my attempts on this subject have led to arguments and broken promises.
Or maybe I should go onto Plan B. I am so sick of this and I wonder if I am just perpetuating my pain by hoping to get him to really give us a chance. I know that it is likely the A will end. I know he will be sad by this. But how long am I supposed to suffer meanwhile?